Conference quark::human_relations-v1

    RE: .1
    
    Greg:  Don't you think you're being a little harsh, considering
    you aren't in her situation?  You may not respect what she's done,
    but don't attack the person.  We never know how we'd act unless
    we're in the other person's shoes.  

    Re: .2
    
         I did not attack anyone.  I simply stated that I don't respect
    them.
    
                                     Greg

    
    I personally do not think it has anything to do with gender. I also
    feel I am unclear as to that question! 
    
    re0. Do you mean that you get treated by females different than
    you do males in the current situation? Can you define that a little
    more.???
    
    	There will probably be a few pretty sarcastic replies to the
    base note. This issue is a very personal one to many. I can tell
    you this tho; It really has nothing to do with gender. It has much
    more to do with peoples beliefs, morals, and pasts.
    
    I also do not agree with the premise of question 2 in the base note.
    How do you know they feel you "Swiped" this man away from the wife.
    Are you sure you are looking at all the facts? I doubt anyone is
    pointing at you alone and saying it is your fault. I would rather
    think they feel you are both at fault. ***And please believe me,
    I am not placing blame on either, or attempting to tell you whether
    you are right or wrong****
              
    as a personal experience I can tell you there are many other thoughts
    going on in peoples heads. My first marrige ended when my *EX* had
    an affair. That set up a very personal bias in my head that will
    not let go. I have very strict feelings toward the commitment in
    a marriage. If you are married then you are committed. There (In
    my opinion only) should be no exceptions at all to that commitment.
    if I saw an affair going on, I would realise it is not my business.
    I would not get involved by making judgements toward either person.
    I have no right to make assumptions on others. So therfore I would
    do the only thing possible. remove myself.
     I would definately be bothered by it.
    It would anger me that people can take commitment so callously.
    But I would also know that these things happen. 
    
    But knowing it is not place to judge, I would pull myself away from
    the situation as much as possible. Only if I was asked by one of
    the two involved would I make any kind of a attempt to express myself.
    cw

    re: .0 (anonymous)
        
    > My questions are 1) why the difference in attitude between sexes?  
    
    I'm not sure what your question is here - sorry, I was a bit confused 
    by the text that preceeded the question.  I gather that some women
    are shunning you; is that to say that men aren't?  And one other
    question:  are those women giving you a hard time single or married 
    (or both)?
    
    > 2) why do people feel the need to assume I swiped this man away from 
    > his wife I had nothing to do with decline of the marriage, why blame 
    > the new lady in his life and assume she is trash?

    Since I don't make those assumptions, I can't in truth know, but
    I'll hazard a guess or two.  Perhaps it's easier to make assumptions
    than it is to take the time to get to know a situation and the people
    involved in depth.  Perhaps having a dogmatic outlook makes a sometimes
    confusing world easier to understand; if I believe that "All extra-
    marital relationships are bad", I don't have to spend much effort
    in thinking any further about any given individual situation that
    appears to me - it's "bad" by definition.  And, by extension, I
    am "good" because I don't pursue such a relationship.
    
    As I said, I don't hold such an outlook; for me it's too simplistic.
    For me, life isn't a binary situation, particularly in the area
    of moral judgement.  When it comes to human beings, I find the 
    notions of "good" and "bad" extremely slippery, even more so when 
    the arena is love and marriage. 
    
    Steve

    Perhaps men would like it to happen to them and women are afraid
    it would happen to their husbands.  
    
    A long time ago (here I go airing my dirty laundry again) my former
    wife regaled me with the details of her best friends affair.  Her
    husband was treating her indifferently so one of his old Navy buddies
    'moved in' on her.  In lurid detail I was told of how, when where
    and how good their affair was.  It didn't go over so well when I
    had an affair for what I consider the exact same reasons.  I'd never
    considered having an affair and had no idea how anyone could do
    it.  I'd like to thank her for telling me all the details.
    
    So...what I'm saying is that it all depends on the perspective.
    

    re:0
    
    I think you're finding that many women fear you. They also fear
    what has happened. They fear any woman who would openly have a
    relationship with a married man. Don't you think that another woman
    could easily take your place?? You took the place of another woman.
    Even if his relationship with his wife was crumbling during your
    'friendship' period, don't you think that you may have "greased
    the skids" so to speak, in the eyes of others?? They believe that
    you made it easier to leave the relationship he was in. What you're
    going to find, is that you may start to question the relationship
    you have with him. If you begin to have trouble will he seek another
    woman's 'friendship'? Why not? He found yours. You'll find that
    other women will take joy in any suffering that you two may have
    to go through. Right or wrong women will blame YOU more so than
    HIM. Men on the other hand, will watch and say little. Some will
    formulate judgement in their minds and will discuss you amongst
    themselves. You'll get few breaks. If you and your SO break up,
    you may find other married men looking for a soft shoulder. You
    may find that one or more may even approach you. It's something
    that you'll have to live with from those around you who know your
    circumstance.
    
    Ken

This is just my opinion but it's a strong one.  No matter what, you DO NOT 
DATE or whatever a married person.  If the feelings are so strong you feel you 
HAVE to be together, the marriage should "end first" before anything else 
takes place.  The damage done when this happens is so unbelieveable and 
affects the lives of so many that it's very hard to explain.  I think it is 
very selfish if you cannot "wait" for the marriage to end before getting  
involved.  Just speaking from being on the other end of the line here. 
I believe it's all a matter of "morals".

CT

    
    RE: .8
    
    Not to be insulting here...but...
    
    Whose morals? Yours? His? Hers? It appears to me you are making
    a value jusgement about right and wrong and moral and immoral here.
    I think Mr. Mallett stated it very well....who are any of us to
    make that judgement.
    
    Melinda

         
    I have been reading through .0 note plus the replies.  However,
    on reflection I wonder why the note was written anonamously,
    as this is not something to be afraid, ashamed of or forgiven. 
    Does the noter want OTHERS to pass JUDGEMENT on HER personal
    BEHAVIOUR ?  If so, they have and WILL.
    
    But it really SHOULD'T matter a damm.  To quote an old cliche
                        "IT'S YOUR LIFE"
                                                      
    
    Regarding the differing reaction of male Vs. female - 
    
    comment:  read above.
                               
    Regards
    Aileen
    

    People will make accusations and inflict their own judgements on
    anyone in any situation that is different to their own no matter
    what the situation is,its up to  you to decide to what extent you
    wish it to interfere with your own feelings.
    
    Wht they do it I've no idea,I could presume but if I was right or
    not who knows??
    
    I can only echo what has been said before,dont let the petty minded
    people of this world get under your skin,enjoy the people who see
    the relationship for what it is.
    
    I dont agree with the noter who said keep away from all married
    people until the divorce is through,what happen to all the people
    who are seperated and waiting for the papers,are they resigned to
    being lonely for two years?
    
    Phil.

This sounds like the same attitudes that are reflected in the teen-age sex 
perceptions ---   The girl is a sleaze but the boy is okay because he IS a 
teen-age boy and teen-age boys are supposed to be going after the girls, AND if 
the girl lets him have his way then she is a tramp.

   These are not MY opinions but they seem to be overwhelmingly present in the 
midwest, whether admittedly or not.

   So it is with the woman dating the married man.  Around here should would be 
a homewrecking, sleazzy, tramp and the man would be treated with understanding 
and pity over having been led astray by that awful woman.   Again, I don't 
agrre with these pre-disposed evaluations of the circumstances but they exist, 
and very much so.  

   men seem to always get the benefit of the doubt and women are almost always 
looked on as being guilty of shameful behavior.  

Sad-but-true,
Mike.

    RE: .12
    >>men always get the benefit of the doubt ...
    Mike ... Sorry pal, but I disagree.
    In CALIF if a man is an infidel, he'll get shot
    and if he lives, he'll get sued for everything he has today
    and tommorrow.
    
    RE: .0
    >>why do people feel the need to assume I swiped this man
      away from his wife...
    Must be your geographical area. Attitudes are different in every
    part of this fine country.
    My personal opinion is don't get married until the TRUST, LOVE
    HONESTY and UNDERSTANDING are in high working order!!
    I also believe that there many reasons to end a marriage, not
    just infidelity anymore,so if things are bad and cannot be rectified
    GET OUT.
    
    In your situation, I think the man your seeing owes his wife
    much more than jumping out of their marriage and into one with
    you.
    
    >>why blame the new lady in his life
    Personally, I DON'T. I think he owes you some space until
    he figures out what the hell he's doing with his life.
    
    >>assume she(the new lady) is trash
    Maybe again its the geographical area in which you live.
    But again in my opinion, he's screwing up and needs to evaluate
    his situation. Jumping out of a marriage and into another
    is not going to solve any problems in fact it just might
    create some ... and I think you ought to think about that.
    
    This is not a black and white situation. There are lots of
    grey areas. And many more things to consider than anyone
    person could possibly imagine. 
    I would only caution you to really scope out this guy's life
    and his behaviour patterns, you have more to lose by being
    his next wife than he stands to loose by remarriage.
    
            --Christopher_whose_never_going_to_get_married_until_
            he_is_sure_that_the_relationship_is_functional_and_
            is_in_need_of_a_lifetime_commitment_
    

"men seem to always get the benefit of the doubt and women are almost always
looked on as being guilty of shameful behavior."

The attitude .0 is getting (she says) is more like the men don't care, the women
do.  The different attitudes is *coming from* different people, rather then
being given *to* different people.  This speaks more of the people giving the
attitude then the people they have the attitude about.

Women are much more threatened by such goings on; that is where their power
base tradionally lies.

Jim.

    
    if only people would realize that
    	a. love doesn't always last forever
    	b. it's ok for love to not last forever
    	c. people can have many different loving relationships in life
    	d. it's ok to have many different loving relationships in life
    	e. it's ok to end a relationship
    	f. it's ok to move on to new relationships
    	g. no one...no one...no one KNOWS how long they will love
    another person....or how long they will want to remain in a
    relationship.....NO ONE!
    
    no blame
    no guilt
    
    

    re: .15

    RIK!  Long time no see!  Yes, I've been back for a couple of weeks now,
    but I haven't seen you in the notes.

       Anyway, with your list you forgot to add:

         love CAN last forever
         it's ok for love to last forever
         people can have one committed loving relationship
         it's ok to have only one committed loving relationship
        
       Let's tell our children so they won't fear commitments...
    
       - Larry
       

    .16  Refreshing thoughts...
    

    
    I may be being really naive here (as I sometimes am) but I think
    that if two people are really in love they should give that love
    a chance.
    
    Many people have affairs and don't leave their marriages.  If this
    guy is getting out of the relationship I doubt seriously it is just
    because he has "found" someone else.
    
    I say hang tight.  It is your life, your love, nobody else's.  It
    is going to be painful for everyone involved.  Listen to your heart.
    
    I think the difference in attitudes is directly related to traditional
    male female roles that are still predominent whether we wish to
    admit it or not.  The woman is basically the subservient and her
    man is king.  We live for our man and if something ever happend
    that he wouldn't be present, we'd be lost.  Basically I think it
    a whole load of dung.  Then there is the male side.  The man is
    supposed to provide for his family etc.. if he finds out he is no
    longer happy or hasn't been for a long time then its DESERTION.
    Doesn't anyone care about his happiness?
    
    Katrina

    
    re:.16
    well...i didn't add them to the list because it seems everyone
    is already aware of those options....:-)
    
    re:.17
    i thought my list was refreshing...
    
    isn't it refreshing to know that it's ok for love not to last?
    instead of..."oh woe is me...my life is ruined...my lover left!"
    isn't it refreshing to know that it's ok to have more than one
    relationship?

    i think so....
    
    and....i still get the impression that people think 
    	1 love lasting forever
    	is better than
	a series of loving relationships in life....
    
    i find it refreshing to think that isn't true

   as to my hiatus....
    (nice of you to notice)
    i've been busy putting my pathetic musical life together.
    much to busy to have time to make the world a better place...
    so...you all had to carry on without me...
    
    now....i'll bet THAT was refreshing for most of you....
    :-)
    rik