Conference quark::human_relations-v1

I had a friend change her name from Melissa to Barbera, and her last name from
Haper to Crowley.  

She explained that her new first name had been her middle name, which her father
had given her, and that her new last name was her father's last name which was
not the same as the last name of the man her mother was married to when she was
concieved/born which was her old last name. 

Clear... :-)  She wanted the names her father had given her...

Now the problem was that I knew her as Melissa Haper, not Barbera Crowley; and
she definitely was not the Barbera sort of person, and I never could bring
myself to call her Barbera...

So now I just call her Fred... :-) 

(A long standing generic name name)


BTW, All names have been changed to protect the guilty! :->

    Kind of getting off the topic a little...what about changing your
    name when you get married.  I don't understand why a woman has to
    change her last name when getting married.  I would think it would
    be hard to get used to.  I do notice now adays that more women are
    keeping their last name and just adding on the marriage name to
    the end.  I think I like that idea better, that way it's not something
    totally new, just a little longer. 8^)
    
    Just ratteling on again!

    Debbi

        The modern habit of women changing their last names when they
        marry is rather a muddling of the original practice which was of
        the lesser ranking spouse to be granted the use of the titles of
        the higher ranking spouse. 
        
        The last name was not originally regarded as part of the
        person's name at all. In fact, in most Christian churches it is
        not so treated even today. I, for instance, was baptized as
        James Lowell, not as James Lowell Burrows. Later when I was
        married I was address again as James or James Lowell and not as
        James Burrows. Historically and in the church my name is James
        Lowell, Burrows being meerly a title or a "surname". If you will
        look up the definition of "surname", you will find that its
        original meaning was the same as "nick name".
        
        In days gone by when titles were more important than they are
        now, it was not true that the title or surname change was always
        on the part of the woman. Rather, when two married and one was
        of a lower rank than the other, the lesser was elevated to the
        rank of their spouse. They would then adopt the style, title or
        surname appropriate to their new station.
        
        JimB.

    This is still done sometimes among the very rich or very titled--
    Princess Anne's husband, for one, and the man who married one of
    the coffee heiresses.
    
    I tried to keep my name when we got married, but the practical
    difficulties of having a family with two different names got to me.
    It's nice to say that we should all be unique, that we shouldn't be
    identified/trapped by who we happen to be related to, but it makes it a
    whole lot easier to deal with school systems and stores. And especially
    hospitals, which tend to assume that if the father and the child have
    different names, they're trying to commit insurance fraud, which is
    something you'd rather not have to explain while you're sitting there
    holding a 4-year-old who's running a fever of 104, rising to 105 while
    you argue . . . And the government, which sometimes takes it into its
    head to hassle you every time you file a joint income tax return.
    
    Your friend who is changing her name is liable to find this sort of
    informal, institutional resistance to a change of name that's not
    prompted by marriage. A friend of mine who changed her name from a
    Japanese one to a Biblical one when she converted from Buddhism to
    Christianity still doesn't have her family's life and health insurance
    straightened out.  The Hartford seems to think she's her sister...     

    --bonnie
    

    There have been a number of discussions about name changing in
    marriage.  The intent of the base note was to frame a  question
    about name changes that result from a need to change identity.
    Some reasons to change identities might include:
    Being a part of a particular family may have become an embarassment,
    or that family may have rejected an individual.   A person might
    change their identity as part of an act of civil disobedience. 
    Some folks even get themselves into financial trouble that makes
    reappearing as another person seem prudent.   

    I certainly hope I don't embarase anyone but 5 replies and no one
    has yet said what the heck is your name .0 ?
    
    Kerry N. Faulkner

RE:    < Note 286.6 >

>    I certainly hope I don't embarase anyone but 5 replies and no one
>    has yet said what the heck is your name .0 ?
 
    I am dueing registered in 3.96 and WHOARU#707.  In light of the
    question at hand though, I would appreciate any insight you can
    share on why it matters.  Does having a string of characters to
    type or a sequence of syllables to utter (or a face to recognize)
    meet a real need?  If it does, would doing a global substitute for
    characters/syllables/face change who I am to you?
    
    If it helps, the character string is "BOB", and the syllable is
    the same as the one that describes what a cork does when a fish
    bites.

If a friend of mine chooses to change names, it makes no difference to me.
After all, "A rose by any other name would smelll as sweet..."  Names
say nothing about intrinsic qualities of the named object/person.

If my friend wants to change names to have a new name, so what?  If I care
for them as Ophelia, I'll care for them as Gladys.  If my friend wants to
change names to avoid legal hassles due to civil disobedience or criminal
entanglements, so what?  I'll greet them as Jane/John Doe.  I'll even visit
them in the penetentiary.  Just don't press me to do things I don't agree
with morallly:  I'll picket/obstruct a nuke, but I won't rob a bank.

As to the practical considerations of name-changing, I think that is the
price we pay for being individuals in a culture that finds dealing with
groups of people easiest.  (Easier for the record keepers, I guess.)  I
think we must just keep on being Us and not let the bureaucrats define our
lives for us.

MM

RE:Note 286.8

>If my friend wants to change names to avoid legal hassles due to civil 
>disobedience or criminal entanglements, so what? 

    Changing one's identity is a crime (SSN, Driver's License, etc)
    if it is done for fraudulent purposes.  It is unclear whether
    alternate ID's are criminal if no fraud is intended.
    

RE: .8

"Names say nothing about intrinsic qualities of the named object/person."

I disagree...  If I call someone an insulting name, it *does* make a difference.
If someone is always being called by an insulting name, they will tend to
conform to that name. 

It has become obvious that in my mind I have fixed certain types of persons to
certain names based on experience on a subconcious basis.  I have never run
across this problem of not having a name fit a person before.  I tend to think
that people's names do have an effect of them. 

For instance, my name is James, historically, it has the meaning of 'Support',
or 'Supplanter'.  I myself identify with that role in life very strongly. I am
not a good leader.  I have many of the attributes of a leader, intelligence,
resourcefullness, creativeness, etc, except that I do not have the charisma
which a leader requires. I do not like being in the position of leader. I do do
very well in secondary positions where my abilities can be taken advantage of,
such as second in command, advisor, consultant.

Jim. 

    As the author of the note pointing out some of the practical
    difficulties involved in changing one's name, I want to add a
    postscript:

    My message sounds like I advocate not changing one's name if it
    will cause problems. I meant to advocate the exact opposite. (Shows
    what happens when you try to NOTE before your first cup of coffee!)    
    I certainly don't think that the practical considerations are an
    adequate reason to not change your name if personal, psychological,
    religious, or even more practical reasons indicate that you should.
    But people often overlook this kind of thing.
    
    Knowing the kinds of things you have to watch out for can make actually
    going through with a major change much easier. If someone had told
    me how much hassle I was going to get from insurance companies for
    not changing my name, I would have known what I was getting into
    and I would have been better prepared to resist.
    
    I still sometimes feel that I gave in on an important moral point
    for nothing more than convenience. 
    
    Point: .0, don't let anybody talk you out of it merely on the grounds
    of all the store clerks and insurance desks that are going to give
    you trouble. But be prepared!
    
    --bonnie

    Bonnie,
    
    I think that the store clerks and insurance companies have seen this
    before. The only problem I ever had with having a different name than
    Val was once at DECUS when my rental car was stowed in the hotel on the
    room in her name and I tried to liberate it when she had the ticket.
    Fortunately, it was registered in my name, so they finally gave it to
    me. 
    
    Many of my friends also have separate names, and while we've sometimes
    discussed this, we've never gotten into discussions of the problems it
    causes. There are enough families in this world where each spouse has a
    name and the children a third that people have gotten used to it. In
    fact, most people I know who didn't change their name didn't because
    they didn't want to go through the hassle of changing it and acquiring
    a new driver's license, credit cards, checks, magazine subscriptions,
    etc. 
    
    	Jon

    RE: .9 and fradulent purposes.  I didn't say I thought it was a
    nice idea or a legal one:  but if that is the path a friend chooses,
    they are still my friend.  As for it being fraudulent, I beleieve
    in the need for civil disobedience (Ghandi, King Jr.) and that the
    laws of a society are not always just.  So if the only way my friend
    can stoy out in society is to hide in plain sight (again, I'm not
    talking about criminal offenses:  lock them UP!), then I'm not turning
    them in.
    
    RE: .10 and "becoming" a name.  I think it very important that
    people define themselves, not accept a definition imposed from without.
    This is hard and requires great inner strength.  (I'm not saying
    I'm good at it, either.) 
    
    MM

    
    
    If anyone delves into the metaphysical and esoteric study of
    numerology, you can find that a person's name means quite a
    bit and also says a lot about the person's basic life urges
    and more.
    
    Numerologically, the full name at birth is ALWAYS used to find the
    "soul urge" number.  It never changes.  The number that can
    change when a name is changed is the "expression" number -
    how the "soul urge" is brought forth into the world...or
    hindered.  Other numbers that never change are the life path
    and life challenge - both derived from the date of birth.
                              
    So, though it may look like the naming process is a random one,
    esoterically it is said that it is chosen before birth and for
    very important reasons.
    
    Regards,
    
    Carole

    My name certainly doesn't fit me at all.
    
    I had a name which my true parents gave me at birth.. 
    then the orphanage I came from change that name to a name they like
    (being a French run orphange it got change to a french name) then
    my american parents who adopted me change the name again to what
    they like also kept the french name as my middle name.
    
    I know what my original name means but don't know what my present
    name means.  
    
    I admit tho, my present name I have a lot of fun with.  It also
    surprises a lot of people when they see me.
    
    

    what is really in a name, i think most of us really don't like
    our names, but we don't go out and change them. it is all in our
    mine, if we just changed our way of thinking, then what does it
    really matter. as in changeing it to hide from our problems, they
    are going to find you anyway, so why waste the time and cause yourself
    all the hassle. you can run but you cannot hide. you by any other
    name is still you. but hey who am i to say, i don't know who i am
    most of the time anyway.
                                       terry

RE:< Note 286.13>        -< Be Yourself, Not Your Name >-

I didn't say I thought it was a
nice idea or a legal one:  but if that is the path a friend chooses,
they are still my friend.  As for it being fraudulent, I beleieve
in the need for civil disobedience (Ghandi, King Jr.) and that the
laws of a society are not always just.  

    When I was born, my parents named me Elizabeth Michael Tatistcheff.
    
    Tatistcheff is a very old Russian name which appears regularly in
    Russian literature, as do the names Troubetzkoy, Tolstoy, Galitzen,
    etc.  Tatistcheff means "descended from he who ferreted out the bandits."
    I like my name and the millenia of history associated with my family,
    so I am doomed to forever spell it out...  :)
    
    When I was christened, my name was Elizaveta Mikhailovna, which
    meant that I was Elizabeth, daughter of Michael.
    
    When I was a little girl, I was called Lizinka, which means little
    Liza.
    
    My brothers called me Lee, because Lizinka was too long.
    
    My family in France calls me Liza (does that mean I'm not little
    anymore?) because Lee sounded too American for them.
    
    When my youngest brother was very small, he called me Ka.
    
    When I was in grade school, I was called Flea.
    
    When I was in college, I was called Miss Ta-too-too by those who
    didn't want to misspell or mispronounce my name, an easy thing to
    do.
    
    Some people at work call me Tasty-chef for the same reason.
    
    Each of my names is still used by someone today.
    
    When I marry, I will replace the Mikhailovna (my Dad's "mark of
    ownership") with my husband's last name, a simple exchange of
    "man-marks" in my eyes.  Tatistcheff is going to remain my name,
    and if I have children, I can see a pretty huge battle on what last
    name goes to the children.

    All these names mean something different, and I think they reflect
    somewhat on my relationship with the people who use them.  I don't
    think it means anything about who or what _I_ am, though.
    
    Lee

    In the days of Matt Dillon/Gunsmoke, a person was his physical
    instantiation.  The name one gave was ones name - the notion of
    checking a driver's license or passport didn't fit into the 
    pervasive illiteracy of the time.  However, things are different
    today.  A physical existence is not proof of existence.  One can
    spend time in jail for not being able to "prove" who one is. One
    can also be able to "prove" several different and independent 
    existences - several logical forms on one physical form.  To a great
    extent, this has only become possible with recent technologies,
    and there doesn't seem to a body of knowledge of relating to other
    people when the other physical people keep changing their logical form.
    For instance, it is probably uncool to greet a person by name when/if
    they engage in these practices, but our culture has no language
    (that I know of) for sorting this out.  Underneath that, I feel
    there is a big question about who I am relating to - is the person
    I know the physical form or a particular logical form?

    Dear Deb:
    
    Women change their name to that of their husband's because, in
    marriage, they become their husband's property. The husband gives
    his chattle his name as a means of "branding" the woman, thus laying
    claim to her over all other men.
    

    RE: .20
    
    	Oh God Almighty! Give us a break! If you are a female then I
    would call you a Female Chauvinist Pig.
    
    						mike

     
     re .20:
     
     Dear Jeffy:
     
     Women change their name after marriage, or men change their name after
     marriage, because they choose to.  If a woman chooses to become a
     man's "property", or if a man chooses to become a woman's "property",
     that is her or his choice.
     
     With this talk of branding, I wonder if you've confused cattle with
     chattel.
     
     --Mr Topaz 

    My grandmother tells me that either spouse changing names after they
    got married was *not* traditional in the part of Europe (very rural
    Bohemia) where her family came from. Nor did the children necessarily
    use the father's name. In a pre-legal and non-literate society that
    didn't have drivers' licenses, health insurance, or credit cards,
    it didn't matter -- everybody knew who you were anyway.
        
    Her mother (my great-grandmother) was the child of a pair of 'radicals'
    who adopted the new-fangled and supposedly 'high-class' convention
    of having the woman take her husband's name. 

    --bonnie

re:  .19

There are several examples that quickly come to mind.  Alot of fun has been
poked at the military for having recruits answer "Sir, YES SIR!"  When I
taught high school, my students called me Mr. VanDeusen (and others things I
am also sure).  I don't know anyone that cals me that now, but it was
important in defining my relationship to the class.  

Also, titles are very important.  Dr. Smith,  General Jones,  President and
CEO, etc.  Misusing a label, or not using a label, is considered rude and
inconsiderate.  These labels are generic labels, but have a distinct effect on
the bearers and users. In the movies, stereotyping of blacks resulted in
refering to the black butler as "boy".  Is this a label or name?  Other
replies have talked about the branding of women by taking on their husbands
name.  For some this is insignificant, for others, it appears from previous
replies, this event implies ownership which in turn MUST change the person's
self image in some way. 

Growing up, I had to deal with the fact that my mother just sort of decided to 
call me Monte.  For some reason, I decided this was also an appropriate name 
for a pony, and to this day I sometimes view myself this way.  Ponies are nice 
pets for kids but shouldn't really take themselves too seriously, especially 
around horses.  Ralph is another one of my favorite names.  To me, someone 
named Ralph is outgoing, sometime abrasive, but always honest and upfront.  
Why do I think this?? I don't know....  Why was Mr. Ruth called "Babe"?  Why 
is name-calling significant to a child?

If I was to move out of town and change my name, I'd probably call myself Mac
Johnson.  But I won't, because I am proud to be named VanDeusen (probably has
something to do with my parents and grandparents.) I could probably do without
the Monte - I associate MYSELF with it too much.  Don't assume from these
comments that I am not self-confident or not assertive when I choose to be. 
After all, a name does not a man make.  But, I think Bob is right, names DO
change the way we - and especially others - view us.  But WE choose whether we
will allow ourselves to modify our behavior toward ourselves/others merely on
the basis of a name.  And if I can modify the behavior of another toward me by 
changing my name....... 

RE: .20

    
>    Women change their name to that of their husband's because, in
>    marriage, they become their husband's property. The husband gives
>    his chattle his name as a means of "branding" the woman...

Adding fat to the chauvinistic fire: in Hebrew (the language most of
the Bible is in), the verbal meaning of 'husband' is 'owner'. In
Biblical times, an offspring was referred to by the father's name, a
woman - by her owner's (oops... - husband's) name. And that was a
mere two thousand years ago. 

-- Ron

        Just for the record, the word that Ron Hoffman is talking about
        is "baal", which means master, and is *sometimes* (about a
        half-dozen times) translated as "husband", it is also used more
        or less figuratively to mean "owner". The word most usually
        (about 60 or 70 times) translated as "husband" is "'iysh", which
        means, basically, "man", and derives either from the word for
        "mortal" or "being". 
        
        The point being that the Bible written in another time and
        another culture exhibits at times what we would consider to be
        chauvanism, but that blanket statements often are like adding
        fat to a fire--they generate more heat than light, and in a way
        that may cause more trouble than good.
        
        JimB.

I hate to be argumentative (not really, but who cares...) - however,
I'd like to differ with Jim Burrows' linguistics.

To be specific, "baal" does not mean 'master'. It means 'owner'.
Practically always in modern Hebrew (and very often in Biblical
usage), the word 'owner' is used to refer to a husband (say, a woman
picks up the phone. You'd always say 'could I talk to your owner',
never 'could I talk to your man'). The word 'woman' would always be
used to refer to a wife. 

Please take my word on this - my Hebrew is significantly superior
to my English. 

As to the subject matter itself, I was 75% joking and about 25%
serious. On the serious side, Jim expressed it so much better than I
could ever hope to: 
        
>   The point being that the Bible written in another time and
>   another culture exhibits at times what we would consider to be
>   chauvinism, but that blanket statements often are like adding
>   fat to a fire...

-- Ron        

    True-ism's.

    Mordechai Ben Moshe

    Since the conversation seems to consistently move toward marital
    name changes while the question in the basenote involved name changes
    related to assuming a new identity, I would like to pose a question
    around both issues.  Suppose a man, in search of a new name/identity,
    married and took his wife's last name and began to work under her
    SSN.  This is common if the genders and roles are swithed.  How
    would our culture react to a man taking his wife's name?  How would
    various institutions handle it, like on forms that have no provision
    for a man's "maiden" name.  How obvious would this sort of alternate
    identification be if the man was aiming at a low-profile existence?

    Re: .29
    
    Men do change their names - not as often as women, I admit,
    but there's no real reason to ask for a "maiden" name anyway.
    
    As for a husband working under his wife's SSN - sorry, it doesn't
    work that way.  You ALWAYS work under your own SSN.  When you
    retire, if you are married (or divorced or widowed under some
    circumstances) you are entitled to choose your own SS benefits
    or to share in your spouse's, whichever is better for you.
    
    					Steve

    I might be a good example for this note.  My name on my birth
    certificate is 'Stacie', but my whole life, my grandmother has called
    me 'Anastasia.'  My mother thought 'Anastasia' was a perfectly good
    name (and named me 'Stacie' for it) but she figured that everybody
    would call me 'Stacie' anyway, and that the other was a big name
    to saddle a little girl with.  All through my childhood, I was thankful
    she didn't name me 'Anastasia' formally, even though that's what
    people called me around the house most of the time.  As I grew older,
    I began to like the "different" sound to it.  I began writing for
    a magazine and getting involved with the local rock scene as a result,
    and there I went by Anastasia.  Using that name served me well for
    what I was doing.  People remembered me,  associated me with my
    work through my name and all kinds of other things.  There was no
    confusion of "which Anastasia".  People who knew me outside of that
    had no problem because 'Stacie' is an acceptable nickname.  I liked
    keeping separate "identities", even though it wasn't that conscious
    a decision.  It helped me to keep track of things.
    
    Stacie (Or Anastasia, if you please...)