Conference quark::human_relations-v1

If he suspects already, and what you've said is true, then it's time for
a chat with her.  He could start by simply discussing the finances.  He
could also just tell her what he knows/suspects and and ask her point blank.

He could also talk to the girls that she is suppose to be going out with.

He could also set her up to provide proof.

Or he can do nothing and worry himself sick.

Dwight

    
    I agree with Dwight that it's time for some serious conversation. All
    the signs are there but everyone is innocent until proven guilty. 
    
    On the other hand, this has to be tearing the guy apart and he should
    get it out in the open before he goes crazy.
    
    Wes
    

	 Not only does it sounds like he's very unhappy, but sounds
	 like she's a prety unhappy camper too.

	 They need to talk.....sounds like she doesn't want to
	 tho...perhaps she's scared of talking to him.  Perhaps the
	 affair isn't with someone, but something (drugs possibly?
	 That could account for the money loss).

	 The last thing he should do is try to talk to her with a
	 condemning attitude.  That will get him close to nowhere and
	 probably put her on the defense.

	 Compassion, love and understanding go a long way toward
	 opening a lot of doors.

	 kath

    
    	Having been in a simular situation in the past. If and when he
    	sits down to talk, he'll be looking for answers to his questions,
    	but he needs to be prepared to also give answers, and he needs to
    	be sure that he is being 100% honest, especialy to him self.
    	What will he do, if indeed she says Yes, I'm having an affair,
    	and no I don't want to stop, what If she says Yes, I have been
    	having an affair, but I have stopped and now want to be with you.
    	In most cases of people in the latter, the trust is the hardest
    	part to rebuild. What about the possibility of drugs or alcohol.
    	Whatever the problem, and whatever his or her responce, he needs
    	to know he has the strenght to follow through before having to
    	encounter it. Talking to a counselor prior to the confrination
    	might be a good way to start building that strenght.

    Re: .3,.4,.5> Drugs and/or gambling
    
    Although it is a mystery where the money is going, he says it isn't
    
    either one of these. Sorry I didn't mention that in the base note.
    
    b.r.
    

    Re:  -1
    
    How does he know???  It seems funny that he would know 100% about those
    two and not what he actually suspecting.

    
    	First, if he suspects that she is cheating because of events,
    stories, and his own kids, she probably is.  He needs to know for sure
    and the only way to do that is to catch her or see her for himself.
    
    1. Hire a private investigator. They can be relatively inexpensive and
    will provide surveillence of her action. They'll follow her, document
    it, provide photos if requested. They'll also provide information as to
    who she was with, any activity, with dates and times. If she's seeing
    one person only, then he'll have all the evidence to confront her,
    after seeing a lawyer. If she's looking for Mr. Goodbar, he's got an
    even bigger problem because she needs as much help as you do/will to
    overcome it. 
    
    2. Or you can follow her yourself. Gather your own evidence, document
    it, and have a locksmith change the locks on your place and put her
    things on the doorstep. Change the bank accounts, cancel all of the
    plastic cards and set her free. 
    
    True Story: 
    
    An acquaintance wife was cheating on him. He loved her to depth of his
    soul and she knew it. He tried everything to save the marriage. She
    sorta went along with it but continued her affairs. Finally he tossed
    her out. She went to live with her new found lover in his new house. He
    talked her into buying a $28,000 vette, new clothes, etc. He was
    arrested not too long ago. He's a con man. She's lost everything. Her
    kids, her home, her husband. She signed divorce papers and it was all
    finalized a month before her lover's demise. Her ex almost took her
    back but a cooler head prevailed......he's just become engaged to a
    wonderful person and his life is getting better daily. 
    
    	It took two years for all of this to transpire. It's a long road to
    haul. Your friend has to make cold calculating decisions that will
    benefit him and the children. He has to take a step now down that road
    a discover what lies for him or his wife could drive him nuts. That
    won't help him or the kids. 
    
    	He also should not berate his wife to the kids, she's their mother
    no matter what she does and they shouldn't have their image of her
    shattered.
    
    Good Luck..
    
    Ken

 I do not envy this guy one bit- he has a tough road ahead of him.

 He has to face the facts that his wife is probably having an affair (or maybe
several). He has to deal with the possibility that he is unable to satisfy 
her sexually, a difficult admission for any man. He may have already lost
his wife.

 The first thing to do is to attempt to talk to her. He has to ask her where 
the money's going. I knew a guy who thought his wife was cheating on him.
She was actually taking the money and saving it for a grand present for him.
Had he flipped out because her stories didn't always jive, it would have been
a tragic mistake. This is obviously the exception, though.

 He has to attempt to get to the bottom of this by talking to her first. If she
is real evasive or reacts in a hostile manner- he'll know he has big trouble.

 It may be smart for him to begin to take preparatory financial manuevers-
in case this turns out to be a worst case scenario. If all works out, he
can laugh about it later. But now is the time to limit the potential for
financial hardship.

 He should also begin to document her comings and goings, where she says she's
going to be, etc. It may become obvious what's happening when you see it on 
paper. It will also come in handy should a custody battle ensue.

 It sounds very much like she is off running around on him. It is quite likely
that the women she works with won't have anything to do with her because of 
this, and the men will have everything to do with her for the same reason.

 I don't know what else to say besides "prepare for the worst." 

 Good luck, and have strength.

 The Doctah

    As a licensed Private Investigator in the state of New Hampshire
    I have seen many cases involving this type of scenario.  DO NOT
    attempt to follow anyone in a case like this unless you are affiliated
    w/the law or a P.I..  P.I.'s are  trained investigators/observers
    and, in court, are sworn in as EXPERT witnesses.  DO NOT tell this
    person to do it on his own!!!  If confronted and emotions arise,
    you can't tell what could happen in a situation like that.  Domestic
    investigations can be the most temperamental and dangerous.
    
    
    -jeff-

     
Re: .9

> He has to face the facts that his wife is probably having an affair (or maybe
>several). He has to deal with the possibility that he is unable to satisfy 
>her sexually, a difficult admission for any man. He may have already lost
>his wife.

Mark, I agree that this guy has some tough going ahead.

However, there's something you said which I believe might cause him to
feel even more guilt or pain, when there's no reason for him to.

Most people's (male or female) cheating has little or nothing to do with
the fact that they're not being sexually satisfied by their partner.

People "cheat" for a variety of reasons: they, themselves, have low self-
esteem, it's a way of getting attention or revenge, they're generally
bored with their lives (although not necessarily sexually bored)......

Very few people cheat *only because they're sexually frustrated*, although they
may rationalize that that's the reason.
 
  Alan
 

>However, there's something you said which I believe might cause him to
>feel even more guilt or pain, when there's no reason for him to.

 Ok- I didn't mean for that to happen. I just wanted to wave a red flag about
a _possibility_; especially one that most men would really rather not think
about.

 re: .10

 I don't think he should confront her in the act (though my cousin just did
this to her husband). Emotions being what they are and all...

 I see no reason why he couldn't follow her and take note of where she is. 
Assuming he has a decent amount of stealth, that is.

 The Doctah

RE: 0.

>    He says she won't talk to him about anything, is cold towards
>    him, sarcastic, doesn't seem to want to kiss him, etc. 

Doesn't this tell you everything? Regardless of whether she's 
having an affair, they have a real problem.

-- Ron

    re: .13
    
    
    I agree with Ron.  Even if she *isn't* having an affair (which it
    seems like the writing's on the wall) they have a serious communication
    problem.
    
    He should probably take steps doumenting this behavior in order
    to protect himself for the future.  Hiring a PI is a very good idea.
    Documenting an affair may save him a lot of hassle and in a custody
    battle may give him leverage depending on what he wants to do with
    the kids.
    
    My heart goes out to him, hope this is solved amicably for his sake.
    
    Tammi
    

He should confront her.  Ask her outright and see the response.  She may come 
clean or she may lie.  If something isn't done soon, it could drag on.  I 
suspected my ex was having an affair with a (now ex friend) and he kept 
telling me I was being over-perinoid and how much nicer I was than her and I 
was insecure.  After two weeks of me asking what's going on (I could feel 
something was happening - I knew deep inside..) he finally admited it and left 
me for her.  A very real nightmare.  In any case, if this is what's happening, 
the sooner he finds out the better because he's gotta get over the pain, anger 
and feeling of betrayal so he can move on with his life. Right now he's 
living doubt...that can only go on for so long.  Yes, his life will be 
drastically changed and some people don't want to face what's going on because 
it's going to hurt but time heals and he has a right to know "NOW" what's 
going on.  Tell him I said "good luck". 

    I agree with Colleen,  It is imperative that he take control of
    the situation and confront her about it ASAP.  IT will hurt ALOT
    but the sooner he acts the sooner he will be on the road to a happier
    life.  It sounds like he would be better off without her anyway...
    I can sympathize with him...no one deserves this kind of treatment..
    If he would like to talk about it in more detail I would be happy
    to converse with him via mail.  It helps sometime to talk to others
    who have experienced what your going thru....
    
    
    Steve
    

    No one here (except Kath) seems to be concerned about .0's wife.
     It sounds to me that she may be a very unhappy person deserving
    of a little compassion herself.  Remember, there *are* two sides
    to every story, and also that nobody *does* know what goes on behind
    closed doors.  In other words, we are only hearing the husband's
    side of this story.  No one has stopped to consider what he may
    have done to his wife to drive her to this behavior.  .0 states
    that he seems like a really nice guy.  Haven't you ever noticed that
    almost everybody seems like a really nice guy?
    
    I do not respect anyone who goes behind someone else's back and
    hires private investigators to spy on others.  I think it is sneaky
    and underhanded.  
    
    I think that first the husband has to be, as someone else said,
    100% honest with himself, and decide what he really wants.  Does
    he still love her?  Is he happy with her?  Was he happy before she
    began cheating?  Did they get along great before she started cheating,
    or did they fight a lot, and have a lot of differences?  If what
    he really wants is to start over with someone else, does he really
    need to punish his ex-wife first, or can he be willing to forgive,
    let bygones be bygones and let both of them get on with their lives?
    
    He has to talk to her openly about his feelings.  He has to be able
    to ask her ( not condemn her) what is wrong and why she is doing
    what she's doing?  Perhaps they could have an open marriage?  Perhaps
    they should get a divorce.  If they should get a divorce they can
    do this without anger, with joint custody settlements, and perhaps
    even remaining friends.  People are capable of forgiveness.  Revenge
    is not the most important thing on earth.  It is also very important
    to remember that just because a person has had sex with someone
    other than their legal spouse, does not mean that they are not a
    good parent.  I have known some very wonderful people who have had
    extra-marital sex at certain times in their lives, for various reasons.
     We need to remember that this is almost 1990, and be open minded.
     
    There are, afterall, worse things that a wife can do to a husband
    than cheat on him.  If she were a truly evil person she could lie
    to the police that he had hit her, hire a lawyer and lie to him,
    and have a restraining order placed on her husband.  Then she could
    divorce him making sure that at least $200. is deducted directly
    from his paycheck for child support.  I am *not* advocating this.
     I am merely suggesting that for truly evil wives this route is
    legally available.
    
    His wife may be a nice person who is going through a time in her
    life where she is lonely, bored, sad, and confused.  Let's not be
    so quick to condemn her.
    
    Lorna
    

    Lorna:
    
    I beg to differ (re: .17) "We need to remember that this is almost
    1990 ...."
    
    If everyone had that type of attitude about fidelity, then there
    wouldn't be any such thing as marriage and commitment, for the two
    go hand-in-hand with fidelity.
    
    I agree with you about hearing the woman's side too, but I guess
    we'll never know ....
    
    Tammi
    

"If everyone had that type of attitude about fidelity, then there wouldn't be
any such thing as marriage and commitment, for the two go hand-in-hand with
fidelity."

Not everyone would agree with you.  I know of several very committed non
monogamous people who's relationships have stood the test of time...

Jim.

    RE: .18
    
         I have to agree with you Tammi.  I may be an old dinosaur, but
    I mourn the passing of the old-fashioned relationship.
    
                                      Greg

    Re .20, and .18, what I am trying to explain is that when someone
    strays from an "old-fashioned relationship," there is probably a
    good reason.  It may not be just a light-hearted whim.  It may be
    a sign that something was seriously wrong with the "old-fashioned"
    relationship, and we should have a little compassion and understanding
    and not be so ready to "cast the first stone."
    
    Lorna
    

 It is possible that the problem that exists between the couple is "nobody's
fault." That seems unlikely from what we have heard. If she has a problem with
her relationship, jumping in the sack with someone else is extremely unlikely
to have the effect of solving the problem- it will more likely exacerbate it.

 The point that we have only heard half the story is well taken, however.

 If she is indeed having an affair, I would be likely to hold her responsible
unless she has attempted to solve the problem with her husband and been
unsuccessful. Unilateral renunciation of marriage vows does not strike me
as an effective method of solving marital problems.

 The Doctah

          It would be FAR more decent to break-off the relationship before
    violating the marriage.  I would prefer to be 'dumped' before I am
    'cheated on'.
    
                                         Greg

    Greg,
    
    I'd be willing to bet that most people do the latter before the
    former. In fact many may do the latter and never do the former.
    
    Bonnie

    Unhappiness and stress rarely are combined with good decision making.

    I'd suggest he open a separate bank account, and transfer some of the
    joint funds so they don't just disappear.  I agree with a previous
    reply that he protect himself financially.

    I agree with the suggestion of protecting the finances. Once the
    finances for managing the home and taking care of the children is 
    in safe hands(a separate cheking account is a great idea).
    Document her movements and try to detirmine what she is doing.
    I would agree with the suggestion of the private investigator.
    Decide what all your options could be given the different senarios.
    
    Then chose your time to confrount and ask for an explanation.
    Once you have allowed for the worst (in my view this would be a
    nasty "she will try to take every thing" divorce) You can then
    work on what ever comes up because you have prepared for the worse.
    
    My own choise would consider the childrens needs as well as my own
    emotional needs. I will not stay with anyone who has lied to me.
    When this has happened in the past I have serched for and found 
    an apartment and moved my kids and me in the space of a week.
    
    An interesting thing about preparing for a divorce I have learned 
    through talking with other women is the consept of stashing staples
    (can goods and boxed foods and possibably frozen goods if the freezer
    is available) and cash with a trusted friend or family member(father or
    mother) in the event that cash becomes scarce. Lawyers and cleaning up
    bills sometimes makes the cash flow pretty thready and soup will keep 
    a long time in the cans.
    
    
    And dont forget to stop the charges on the cards for a while.Find them
    and hide them or cut them up and send them back to the company.
    
    Once you confrount her and share feelings about what is going on and
    what is going to take place in the future you can use your judgement 
    on what's to happen next.
    
    A posibillity that occured to me while writing this is maybe the 
    gambling or another habit has got her money tied up.
    
    janet
    

    Completely off the subject...
    
    Its interesting to me that the person in this note observed a change in
    behavior, and recieved dozens of suggestions to COMMUNICATE!  To talk
    to his wife and find out whats up.  Very few people recommended to
    "drop her" like a hot rock without finding out the real scoop.
    
    But in an earlier note, a girl witnessed her boy friend's behavior
    change to aloofness, and there were all kinds of responses to the
    effect of "Hes a jerk like all men, forget about him".
    
    Obviously, a marriage with children has a lot of extra considerations,
    but why the big switch in attitudes?  How come all relationships
    aren't worth some fact-finding before the action-taking?
    
    Jim
    
    (should this be a seperate note?)
    

	 uhm, jim...
	     
>    Its interesting to me that the person in this note observed a change in
>    behavior, and recieved dozens of suggestions to COMMUNICATE!  To talk
>    to his wife and find out whats up.  Very few people recommended to
>    "drop her" like a hot rock without finding out the real scoop.

	 I see most people in this string being just as
	 awful.....hiring a private investigator, THEN confronting
	 her is what seems to be the going thing in here, and I find
	 that to be awful.

	 Surely if you marry someone, you have enough faith in them to
	 be able to sit down and discuss it with them.


	 I agree totally with you....quite a few people seem to be
	 negative as of late.

	 kath    

    Yes, it's sad but true. When a guy cheats, it's "dump him, he's no
    
    good." When a woman does, it's "talk to her, find out what's wrong."
    
    As I mentioned in .0 he has tried to talk to her, to no avail. It's
    
    true he hasn't asked her "are you cheating on me?". Possibly because
    
    he's not ready for the answer she may give him. Like "yes I am.
    
    So what?" Tomorrow he will have a chance to read all your replies
    
    (*very* good advice, too. I knew I came to the right place!) and
    
    decide what to do.
    
    It's true he has his faults, but nothing that I would consider CHEATING
    
    on someone for. Like he said to me "can't she talk to *me*?" This
    
    is the woman he has trusted, loved and been faithful to for 7+ years.
    
    Thanx for the advice so far and PLEASE continue.            
    
    b.r.
    

    Re the "cheating" double-standard: I hope people haven't really been
    saying that. My view (and what I thought I'd seen in the latest round
    of Dear-Noters) is: if a spouse/long-term partner cheats, talk to
    him/her; if a new interest cheats, drop him/her.  Or, to blur the line
    a bit - if the "cheatee" has, or wants to have, a close, relatively
    long-term relationship with the cheater, then try and open
    communication. But if there isn't anything else in the relationship
    that's worth fighting for, cut your losses. (This is wildly simplistic,
    of course; there are too many possible circumstances for any
    cut-and-dried advice.)
    
    Sadly enough, sometimes it seems that people are more willing to raise
    the subject when the relationship is new; perhaps, as .30 suggests,
    people in long-term relationships feel they have more to lose if their
    fears are realized, so they're more reluctant to press the point.
    
    -b

    re .17 & .29
    
    The base note said that he tried to talk to her and was rebuffed. 
    While hiring a private investigator may appear to be "sneaky and
    underhanded," the behavior he suspects her of doing is sneaky and
    underhanded.  Given how easily divorces get really nasty these days,
    hiring a P.I. seems a sensible precaution just to preserve his rights
    and protect himself.  If she is cheating, he will have the facts to
    support his case, and if she is not and is involved in something more
    damaging, maybe he will be able to get her helped.  And if she is not,
    and is doing nothing of consequence, he will at least be able to have
    some peace of mind about it, which will help him be able to approach
    her and work on the fairly obvious issues.
    
    It is unfortunate that people have to think about protecting themselves
    in situations like this.  It would be so much nicer if we could count
    on the one's we love having been truthful, open, and trustworthy; but
    so often it is those people who turn out to be shockingly viscious and
    vindictive when it comes time to part.  Without hard evidence about
    behavior that will stand up in court, he could get 1) cheated on, 2)
    deprived of the right to have a part in his children's upbringing, and
    3) cleaned out financially.
    
    Sorry... but there's a lot about relationships that ain't very
    romantic.
    
    BTW, Oprah had a show with  P.I.'s recently, and they all said that
    much more often than not the same husband or wife ended up calling them
    back for repeat business after the straying spouse had promised to
    never do it again.
    
    Would I want to do this... never... would I do it... in a minute if I
    were in this guy's situation.
    
    R.

    Wouldn't it be terrible if the lady had a gambling problem or
    something?  What if there was some other nefarious activity she was
    involved in?  Suppose she isn't cheating.  The first rule of problem
    solving: "find out what the problem is!"  After that comes the "Decide
    what to do about it."

    After reading all the replies then re-reading the basenote, I would
    lean more toward a drug problem than a boyfriend.  The "boyfriend"
    her child saw could very well be a dealer.  It seems unlikely that
    money would disappear to the degree that it sounds like it's doing
    if something like cocaine, crack or some other drug wasn't involved.
    Also the sudden change of attitude and being very closed seems odd.
    I would think that if she is seeing someone else, she would somehow
    try to make it up to her husband by being nicer than usual rather
    than colder because she felt guilty.
    
    Whatever happens, I wish her family the best.
    
    Barb                          

    Re:.0
      Well, there is another developement in the situation. Bill found
    
    a note, apparently from his wife to her boss. In it she mentioned
    
    an incident between the two of them concerning sex. It was brief
    
    but explicit. She also mentioned her review and a raise and hinted
    
    at buying something. (For him?) The thought crossed my mind that
    
    maybe she is just trying to make Bill jealous. Possibly she thinks
    
    he doesn't spend enough time with her. But would someone do that
    
    just to get more attention? It seems kind of drastic to me.
    
      Tomorrow is his birthday so he'll find out if she's been taking
    
    the money for that. And he also told me that her boss picked her
    
    up one night last week to take her to work. On the way they were
    
    supposed to pick up dinner for one of the other girls. An hour and
    
    a half later the girl called the house looking for Kathy and said
    
    she wasn't at work yet. A few minutes later Kathy called Bill and
    
    told him she was at work, but he says it sounded like a pay phone
    
    somewhere outside. I think he should have hung up and called where
    
    she works, but he didn't. Maybe he's in a stage where the fear of
    
    knowing the truth is greater than the anxiety of not knowing. Hope-
    
    fully he'll get over this soon. He's still trying to talk to her,
    
    but he hasn't come right out and asked her if she's screwing around.
    
    He is considering all the advice he's gotten here and trying to
    
    decide what to do.
    
    b.r.
    

    She may be one cruel woman then Mike...
    It wouldnt be the first time that SOMEONE has done this...
    correct?
    
    I tend to think that it is not, and that she is indeed having an affair
    but that seems to be the thing NOT to say so I wont.
    
    :-)

    As far as where the money is going, she might be socking it away with
    the intention of leaving when she gets enough money.

    This guy needs to talk to a lawyer and a marriage counselor,
    right away. The trust is already gone. The MC is in case
    the trust can be rebuilt, the lawyer in case it can't. 
    
    Dana
    
    PS don't let the MC dissuade him from seeing the lawyer.

    Your friend is definitely in trouble.  If everything you have posted
    is absolute truth and not his imagination, I believe she is having
    an affair.  If it is her boss, he may be married also.
    
    A theory:  Her boss is promising to divorce his wife so they can
    be together.  She won't tell Bill the truth in case the boss
    is full of it, she will have him to fall back on.
    
    Who knows where the money is going.  The fact remains, his wife
    is either spending it or stashing it.  She obviously does not care
    about her marriage.  Regardless of her excuses or what her side
    of the story is, nothing justifies an affair.  If you don't want
    to be married, then don't be married.  I agree with the others,
    I would rather be told the truth and have to deal with it, than
    be cheated on.  Furthermore, Bill will never be able to trust her
    again.  Even if she says she won't, he is only human.  Everywhere
    she goes, he will have that knowledge in the back of his mind. 
    It will never go away.
    
    It sounds too far gone to me.  He best be taking notes, hiring a
    private investigator, and fancy footing the accounts and charge
    cards.  It's funny, the one who is most innocent, often ends up
    with the short end of the stick.  Tell him to protect himself now.
    Forget the lawyers unless she tries to take him to the cleaners.
    If it all comes out in the open soon, maybe they can work out a
    viable settlement with properties and custody.  If you get lawyers
    involved, they will both end up with much, much, less. Some lawyers
    like to drag things out and stir up things.  They might even plant
    seeds in his wife's head of ways to make things worse.  Believe
    it!  It really happens.
    
    Most important, tell him to TAKE NOTES:  DATES, TIMES, EVENTS!!!!!!