Conference quark::human_relations-v1

    I carried a torch for about 10 years, then I crossed paths with
    the target of my affection again.  Things happened.  We married.
    Things happened. Worse things happened.  Even worse things happened.
    I think I would rather pine for the relationship that I fantasized
    rather than grieve for the relationship that was realized.

    I was just browsing and saw some stuff about ANONYMOUS notes, so,
    even though I like to be 'cloaked in mystery' I'll enter and
    sign in ... my name is Janice Buck, and I'm a returning temporary
    DECie ... I hope to keep on returning as this is the best company
    I've worked for -- and being a temp. I've worked at quite a few.
    
    See you at Al Floods party (130)
    
    ;^) janice

    
    Carrying the torch.  Gawd, how familiar that sounds.  Those people
    who lug that brass thing around for the Olympics have got nothing
    on me.
    
    This is going to sound cretinous, but I understand something of
    what .0 is feeling.  I feel it myself for a girl I knew when I was
    only 17.  Quite frequently, particularly when I'm about to make
    an absolute jerk of myself over someone, my little voice reminds
    me of her, and how things didn't work out.
                
    I have to keep telling myself, "What the hell did you know about
    anything when you were 17."
    
    DFW

ref.  .5 -
    
    Bob, I know what you mean by DREAMS.  It's like fantasy.  We still
    picture the SO as they WERE, not as they are now.  
    
    A friend of mine was engaged to a woman and much to his chagrin,
    the engagement was broken.  The first year he was very depressed
    and sought professional help.  The second year he dated, and now
    the third year, after the breakup, I am dating him.  
    
    He would still talk about her as if he did the wrong thing and he
    could have done more, less, whatever.  Then about 2 weeks ago,
    he ran into her at a local shopping mall, and he told me how she
    had changed, and that he felt nothing for her.  All this time he
    had "dreaded" the thought of seeing her, because he thought he would
    still have "that old feeling".  But instead he now feels free of
    that old feeling and she is someone he used to know.  She just did not
    match his old DREAM of her.
                                                        
    Sometimes we carry "THE TORCH" for what was, not for what is.              
    
    Bob, is right - "Don't carry a "dead torch".
    
    Toodles,
    
    	-Dotti
    
    

    When I was 15 I fell in love for the first time.  She and I broke
    up in a little less than a year, but for years I remembered her,
    thought about her, and for years never found myself caring as much
    for any other girlfriend.
    
    Time passed.
    
    When I was 22, I was back in the home town after graduation from
    college.  I looked her up.  I was very nervous as I drove up to
    the place she was staying.  She didn't look quite the same.  She
    kept saying "my boyfriend".  She was clearly trying to send me a
    message.  I found her a bit boring and superficial.
    
    As I drove away, I was so happy I started singing in the car,
    "I'm free, I'm free!"  It was as though a ghost which had haunted
    me for the last seven years had been exorcised; it was like
    having a heavy weight you had worn so long that you had forgotten
    you were carrying it removed.
    
    				-John Bishop

I've done it too.

We were "invloved" from the ages 15-17 and then again from 20-23.  He was a 
great letter-writer.  Sometime during our second involvement, no doubt as he 
was getting his emotional bags packed in preparation for the physical split, he
wrote something like "...when you're 30 I'll come back into your life, steal 
you away from your man, and make you wretched."  Well.  I never forgot him, or 
that threat.  So as I approached 30, I got my brother-in-law, who works with 
his father, to find out his address for me, and among other things, I wrote 
something silly like "OK, I'm 30.  Are you going to make good on your threat?"  
Among other things, he said "No."

No more flame in the torch.

CQ

    
    I think the beer commercial sums it up...you never forget your first
    love....I still carry the torch.  She left me when I was away on
    vacation and *married* another man.  The worst part was the
    relationship never *really* finished, it just ended.  I/she never had
    that last word.  I wondered what I did wrong or why she did it.  I guess
    the torch is not really an obsession, just a nagging memory.
    
    The real kicker...I bought a house in this town...come to find out
    all her relatives live in the town...I could run into her someday...I
    dread the thought....

              
    She was not the first. The "first" hurt me pretty badly, & the
    second, who I wanted to marry, left me after going away to
    college. I carry a torch for the third woman in my life. 
              
    I still think of her & smile _broadly_ because we were together a
    short time, but it was perfect from start to finish. At first we
    could not keep away from each other; later, we just drifted apart,
    but quietly. Five years later I met her again, by accident, & we
    went out. She was engaged, so I expected a brief evening of talk,
    but instead we hit every nightspot we could find & then went home
    & spent the night together. Morning, and we drifted away again... 
    
    I would say she was my first real love, though I had had heavy
    relationships before meeting her. Maybe first mature love is the
    best way to put it. I still carry a torch & pray I never meet her
    again for fear that we might spoil what remains of our original
    love. Besides, I'm married now, & things have changed such that I
    don't want to see her; I have my new love, & I hope she does too,
    & that she is happy; mostly I just remember her smiling at me one
    rainy afternoon with her hand on the top button of her shirt,
    asking "On, off, or otherwise?" 

    RE: George (.9) et. al.
    
    I've had similar experiences.  I think the problem is we carry torches
    because we don't like loose ends, we want to wrap it all up, understand
    what happened or went wrong, and are often left standing alone on
    stage wondering where the play went.
    
    Recently had the opportunity to actually tie up loose ends which
    was a healing experience.  Was sort of seeing someone, not very
    seriously, who decided to sette down and marry someone else.  We
    had a chance to sit down and talk about it and kick around our times
    together.  It was *NICE* to be able to tie up all the strings, say
    the things that needed saying, and realize that we will remain friends
    even after her marriage.  And that's nice.
    
    But my limited experience suggests that such opportunities are the
    exception rather than the rule.  More often, a relationship will
    end without the opportunity to have that talk, probably because
    one or both are not quite in a sane mood.  Part of maturity is learning
    to accept life with its frayed edges and loose ends.  Guess I'm
    still far from maturity ... (-:
    
    Steve

	"Cause I've done every thing I know
	 to try and make you mine,
	 and I think I'm going to love you
	 for a long long time."

I knew that I was destined to carry the torch for a woman that I worked
with in my last job when I typed up the words to the song above and
gave them to her to read.  It was the last day we were to work together
before my transfer to another building.  My love for her was very deep
although unrequited.

The fact that I left St. Louis and McDonnell Douglas 3 years ago to come east to
work for Digital is mostly do to that unrequited romance.  After she had
left McDonnell Douglas to go back to school for her masters she would
come back in town from time to time to visit the group that she worked
with in the summer.  Each time someone would make the mistake of telling
me that she would be in town.  I would loose a night of sleep thinking
about what it would be like to see her the next day only to find that
she made no effort to contact me. (or maybe made an effort to avoid me?)

When I got a call from a head hunter asking if I would like to interview
with Digital, I decided that putting a 1000 miles between me and her
would help me to give up on her.  I know I could not go through the
disappointment of not seeing her when she was in town too many more times.

Since then no one in St. Louis has heard from me.  I made the rule for
myself that I would not attempt to contact her until I could except the
fact that I would get no reply.  I could not afford to allow myself to
hope that she would attempt to contact me so I strived to make it
impossible.

I don't mind carrying the torch for her.  I am happy to be able to remember
what it felt like to be so deeply in love and I feel sorry for those
people that have no such memories.

As it is I expect to never see or hear from her again.  It would be
nice to be able to tie up a lot of loose ends...to talk about how
I felt and how she felt...the talk we never had, but I don't see
that as an option.  It is interesting to hear from people who have
had contact with target of their torch.  It might cause me to rethink
my dedication to stay out of touch.  


						MJC O->
    

    
    re .11, and the rest...
    
    Isn't it funny how maturing decreases pain?  Think about it.
    
    GOG

RE: .0

I know... I know...

I still carry a torch for the woman who shared her gift of music and spirit with
me... 

I have been "in love with" and still 'love' many people; I can't say that there
are any people that I've been "in love with", that I don't still love, no matter
what I/they/we've done...

But she was special...

Jim. 

Some kind of love is like gold,
 that is the hardest to hold.
For it catches the eye of each thief passing by...
Some kind of love is like gold.

Some kind of love comes too soon,
 that kind of love heals your wounds.
When you're wounds are all healed
 and you're back on wheels,
 you say that that kind of love came too soon.

Some kind of love,
 some kind of love,
 everyone's looking for some kind of love.

Some kind of love starts as friends,
 that kind of love never ends.
For it comes on as slow as a flower in snow.
Some kind of love starts as friends.

Some kind of love tears your heart,
 when you knew it was wrong from the start.
But try to explain the moth to the flame,
 some kind of love tears your heart.

Some kind of love,
 some kind of love,
 everyone's looking for some kind of love.

Some kind of love never dies 
 that is the hardest to find,
 through laughter and rage, 
 it just mellows with age.
Some kind of love never dies.

Some kind of love is like gold,
 that is the hardest to hold.
For it catches the eye of each thief passing by...
Some kind of love is like gold.

Some kind of love,
 some kind of love,
 everyone's looking for some kind of love.

(played by Marty Burke, available from "Off Centaur" recordings)

     re .13:

     <Isn't it funny how maturing decreases pain? Think about it.

     Does maturing really decrease the pain we feel or does time?

          As I became more mature than I was at 17, when I  first
     loved?   someone  for  more than 1 year, the loses seemed to
     become deeper  and  more  disturbing/disrupting.   I  always
     thought  the  more  we  learned to love, the deeper the pain
     became upon loss since we  knew  more  about  what  we  were
     loosing.  Some sort of a sign of maturity?

     But the sun seems to be brighter every year.

     Lee

    Time reduces the pain.  Also finding someone new to love.  Sure,
    if you think about it, the feelings are still there, but when you
    don't think about it, the pain seems to be gone.
    
    Rich

    RE .-1
    
    		Amen.  
    
    	Not having any contact (call, letter, picture or just running
    into she/he) helps a hell of alot too.
    
    mac

    Oh, I remember...
    
    A few notes.  For me, personally, no, maturing doesn't ease the
    pain.  It was a deep love that we both thought was going to end
    in marriage, and it was a vengeful end that never had a goodbye. And
    to this day (one happy marriage later) there's still a couple of
    songs that I can't listen to without tears (and even more I wrote
    that I have diffculty playing).  The pain remains, it's just that
    everyday life buries it deeper and deeper as time passes, but one
    raw moment remembered will bring it back fresh.  Does it help not
    seeing them?  I don't know.  I sometimes think (mostly during the
    course of a lousy day, when I'm feeling sorry for myself), "I wonder 
    if he's really happy?"  "Does he think about me still?" etc. etc.  I don't
    believe I really want to know the answers.  But I wish I could have
    the chance to talk without anger, without tears, to say goodbye,
    close the book, lock the door. But it's only been four years for
    me...Perhaps I'll get the chance yet...But will I want it?  The
    questions remain.
    
    Mary-Michael

    
    Hi everyone,
    
    	Just want to say thanks for all the advice and the song --
    I think it helped!!
    
    ;') -- Janice Buck
    

    
    Re 16.
    
    	Yea, I guess time does but as we mature the relationships we
    enter into also have a different light.  We know what could happen,
    we are aware of the negatives.  When we're young we don't really
    know what hurt is.  So I guess I should have said:
    
    	Isn't it funny how maturing decreases the occurence of painful
    	relationships?
    
    and yes, time heals all.......
    
    Have a nice weekend everyone....
    
    GOG
    

    
    You know, sometimes I hate being timely.  A good friend of mine
    that I'm still carrying a torch for spent Friday crying with me
    about having been gently dumped by the boyfriend she found after
    telling me she just wanted to be friends.
    
    *Sigh*  I suppose this is one of those times when you show what
    sort of friend you are, but it's kind of hard being a friend only
    when the party of the second part is in the grip of some trauma.
    My little voice keeps telling me I'm an idiot.  However, I spent
    a period being a cold, calculating, unsympathetic SOB.  I don't
    like that person, but he's kind of like Arnold Schwarznegger's
    character in The Terminator, the bad guy who just keeps coming back...
    
    I'm sort of getting off the topic here, so I'm going to shut up.
    
    DFW

    Someone once said that a feeling that changes was never
    
    really there. There was this girl.... I lost track of her
    
    a few years back... she had married... I still.... didn't
    
    think about her 'till I heard Bobby Jean by Springsteen...
    
    know what it's like to lose someone totally...just wanted to
    
    say...

    I am posting this for a noter who wishes to remain anonymous.
    
    **********************************************************************
    
    Yeah - I guess I've got some first hand info along these lines. My old
    flame wasn't my first girl by any means. I met her in highschool where
    we became good friends as part of the same social circle. We never ac-
    tually dated until late in senior year and then occasionally during
    vacations the first couple of years in college (I went to school in the
    east and she in the west). 
 
    Then, during Xmas break of our 3rd year in college, we got together and
    mutually began to realize just how much we meant to each other. She
    mentioned that during the fall semester she had been engaged but had
    broken it off. I felt as though I'd been given a second chance, as I'd
    feared that I'd lost her already, so I secretly planned to drop in on
    her at school in late January and propose marriage. Two weeks after
    returning to school, she called me and told me she was once again
    engaged to the guy she'd broken up with. I cancelled my plans to visit
    in January and didn't speak with her again. I wasn't upset with her - I
    was upset with myself that I hadn't acted faster. 
 
    But I didn't forget her either ... nor did I stop loving her. 
 
    Almost a year later I met another girl who would become my wife after a
    couple of years. We had two great kids and spent fifteen pretty good
    years together. But I knew all that time that I didn't love her quite
    the way I loved my old flame. Some one once sang "If you can't be with
    the one you love, Honey, Love the one you're with". And I've never
    kidded myself into thinking I did anything else. And still I didn't
    forget her, as a matter of fact, at some of the most significant points
    in my life with my wife, I have stopped and thought of her. I wondered
    how she was, where she was, what she was doing, why she wasn't
    experiencing this moment with me. 
 
    Then our High School's 20th year reunion was coming up. I'd been in
    touch with a lot of people since graduation, but no one seemed to know
    what had happened to her. This time I found a few threads. It was like
    I was possessed - I had to find out where/how she was. After about two
    months of part time chasing loose ends via long distance phone calls, I
    located her. The strangest thing is I located her not forty miles away
    in the same state, and not _six_ miles from where I lived up until our
    most recent move (within the past few years). She had been there since
    the previous Fall. BTW, we didn't originally come from this state, we
    just coincidentally both ended up here at this time. 
 
    We got together for lunch and talked about the past and what had been
    going on for the last 17+ years since we'd last seen each other. And I
    discovered, much to my surprise, that she'd spent a lot of time
    thinking about me as well. We additionally discovered that we each
    still love each other. 
 
    She lost her first husband and is now single with two kids. We keep in
    touch regularly, although I have to admit I do this without my wife's
    knowledge - she resents the reaffirmation of our friendship. 
 
    I think, perhaps, at some not too distant point in the future, my
    marriage may end. And at that time, I'll be in a position to restart
    our life to- gether as we should have years ago. 
 
    The other day on the phone she told me the nicest thing. She said she
    woke up crying that morning, a thing she hasn't done since her father
    died. The thought on her mind was that she wished, when she returned to
    school after that Christmas, that she hadn't picked up the telephone
    and called [the man she married], but rather that she had called me.
    God, - I sure wish she had, too. But it's still great to know that she
    loves me. 
 
    For over seventeen years I hurt because I didn't know. Now I don't hurt
    anymore. 
 
    

    I saw my "high school sweetie" after several years, kids, and miles
    between us.  When I called, I thought, "Great, I'll get over this
    crush."  Only to discover I still felt a thrill upon seeing him.  
    We talked and talked and talked just as we had so long ago.  And he's
    still married.  I still feel love for him.  But I'm soooo happy to 
    have his friendship.
    
    Perhaps we were never meant to marry.  That's ok.  Just the friendship
    matters.  Loves may come and go but him...he'll always be "my high
    school sweetie" and friend.

    
    	I just found out my high school sweetheart, with whom I spent 
    	five years and moved to Colorado for, is getting married in a
    	week.  Upon hearing this, my heart lifted and I was overjoyed
    	that he's found someone to share his life with.
    
    	High school romances, for the most part, aren't meant to last.
    	They're meant to begin, and if a lasting friendship can form
    	because of it then I think that's the best you can hope for.
    
    	Carla (who just ended two paragraphs with a preposition and
               doesn't even care)
    

    Didn't anyone see "When Harry Met Sally"??????   :-)
    
    Jim
    
    (back at last!)
    

>
>    Didn't anyone see "When Harry Met Sally"??????   :-)
>
>    Jim
>
>    (back at last!)

	No sorry.  No one saw it.

    
    	Yes, I saw it....why?
    

    Just recalling the point from the movie that SOMETIMES two people meet
    before they are ready, and that MUCH later they might be able to get
    together successfully after all (remember the insets between "acts").
    
    I know, I know.  Its just a movie.  But I believe it could happen.
    
    But there is a grey area between "carrying the torch" and obsession.
    I don't think there was any obsession in WHMS, and I have known people
    in the past that I could probably have a relationship with now, even
    though, at the time, it was impossible for some reason or another.
    
    You never know when circumstances, or personalities can change.  But,
    its not a good idea to sit around waiting for them to.  Just like in
    the movie, its more of a happy coincidence if it ever happens.
    
    Jim
    

 
>    You never know when circumstances, or personalities can change.  But,
>    its not a good idea to sit around waiting for them to.  Just like in
>    the movie, its more of a happy coincidence if it ever happens.
 

Never a truer word...

I carried a torch for a guy I met and dated at University.  I went out with him
for 3 months... then didn't see him for a year... then we became the best of
friends... and we also dated on and off for 9 years...

I carried the torch for him, he carried the torch for a girl called Carol. All
the time he kept enough interest going in me to give me hope.  On about 3 
occasions he and Carol got together and it only lasted about 2 weeks, then I'd
spend months picking up the pieces.   He also had another girlfriend (for 3 yrs)
and I was engaged... but we also still "saw" each other as best friends, 
soulmates etc.  With a 'hint' of "maybe one day".

I realised like a previous reply that I was only "Loving the one I was with",,,
I broke off my engagement.  Carol was getting in touch with him again, but by
now was married.  He broke off with his girlfriend.  

Carol has now left the husband and moved in with him.  I haven't heard from him
for over 6 months except for a couple of chance meetings with joint friends.

I don't know if he and Carol will work out this time, I hope so, previous times
I think it didn't work cos he was in love with a ficticious person...

I used to think my life would never be the same without my "best friend"... but
actually after the first few weeks I forgot about calling him (we used to talk
at least once a day so it was a tough 'habit' to break).  

I am disappointed that he obviously, for all his talk, didn't set as high a 
priority on our friendship as I did.  However, he has done me a really big 
favour, cos I used to think my "torch carrying" was unhealthy.  Now I know it
was.

And as our friendship will never be the same anyway, its not worth risking 
seeing him again...



Xtine

    I figure that a card at Christmas, maybe even a birthday, and in a fit
    of whimsey, a luch date is enough of an investment to stay friends and
    keep the channel open.  
    
    My experience with "coming out and saying what I mean" is pretty
    similar to that of Dustin Hoffman's in "Tootsie" - people SAY they want
    honesty, but honesty is more important AFTER a relationship starts. 
    During the "flirting", feeling-out stages, subtlety is the name of the
    (sad-to-say) "game".
    
    Maybe at the right time the person may realize whats been going on.  If
    not, I'm not hurt and neither are they, because neither had any
    expectations.  
    
    What about love in its infancy that never flowered?  Just as well talk
    about the sperm that never reached the egg.  It takes two.
    
    And, btw, I BELIEVE in soulmates.  Thats why I don't think you can get
    that close, and NOT get the message.  If you send out signals, and the
    person doesn't get them, you don't need a better radio, you need a
    directional antenna, and a new place to point it.
    
    Jim