Conference quark::human_relations-v1

    If you agreed from the start to split the costs, then the ENTIRE
    costs should be split, without exempting your SO because of "relative
    benefits".  (If the airfare is now less expensive, you'll be able
    to spend more on food, entertainment and accommodations.)
    
    IMO, I think he's not being fair...has he given any reasons why
    he feels that airfare isn't part of the total deal?  Time for
    communication.
    
    Bon vacances,
    Judi
    

	 You have every RIGHT to feel hurt!

	 You know what *I* think?  I think he's being very selfish!!!
	 I think I would have been quite offended! And rather ANGRY!

	 Why should you have to pay so much more for the vacation just
	 because of his good fortune?


	 How tacky......................kath

JC,

I'm a bit confused... What has changed, as far as your expenses go?
You were going to split the air fare cost, right? You were going to
pay for YOUR air fare and he was going to pay for HIS.

Now, it turns out his sister has made him a gift of the air fare and
the selfish son of a gun doesn't want to split the gift his sister
is giving HIM, with you. You are still sharing the costs, except
that the source of his part is his sister's gift, not his own
pocket.

(I know... the ticket probably didn't cost her a penny. But, that's 
besides the point).

Well, a question: suppose, quite hypothetically, his sister gave him
$X IN CASH, as a gift, which he chose to spend on his ticket. Would
you require him to share **that** gift with you? Now, suppose she
gave him $5000, out of which he paid for his ticket. Would you
expect to share in just the ticket cost portion of the gift or the
whole $5000? 

A side comment (I always seem to have one): it's interesting to note
that previous responses, expressing the exact opposite view, came
from females... I wonder how significant this observation is? 

-- Ron

    
    
    I think if it were I, his status would be downgraded from 
    SO to friend.
    
    Deborah
    
    

	 
	 QUESTION:  Was the gift of his airline ticket out of the
	 goodness of his sister's heart without him asking for it?  Or
	 did he ask her to get it for him (because he's the relative
	 of someone who works for the airline, he could easily get the
	 ticket free.)


	 Me thinks he most likely asked for it.....that's not really a
	 "gift".


	 kath

    RE: 672.3
    
    I didn't quite understand your hypothetical example?
    
    If his sister gave him 5k, then he should be expected to use
    that money to pay half the expenses and what's ever left is
    his.   He got the ticket for free, so even if he is still
    splitting the entire expense, he stills ends up paying less
    than he would have normally if he didn't have the free ticket.
    
    It works the same way when we go out to dinner with friends, and
    we have a gift certificate.  We apply the gift certificate toward
    the total bill, and then split what ever amount is left
    with the other couple.  We wouldn't expect them
    to pay half the total bill, when we had a gift certificate that
    cost "us" nothing out of our pocket.
                         

    RE: .5
    
    KATH,
    
    We had originally planned the trip for the end of April, and when
    he told his sister, she said to wait until May, because her benefits
    from the airlines would come into effect, and he could have the
    ticket for free....
    
    Does that really change anything??  I'm so confused.
    
    JayCee
    
    
    
    Ron,
    
    You are right that I wouldn't expect him to split a $5000 gift with
    me, and I don't EXPECT/ASSUME that he would split this with me either,
    but I know what I would do, and that's were this is all coming from.
    
    

    
    I think he is also being selfish!!  Did you ask what his reasons
    are for the way he wants to split the trip? 
    
    Mi

    take the total cost
    
    and split it right down the middle.
    
    karl
    
    p.s.  i think he's being a real s**t.  evidently he wants to his
    good fortunes to himself...and that's a bad sign...

    re .9   er...that's KEEP his good fortunes to himself.
    
    
    so i don't pay attention sometimes...
    

"Why should you have to pay so much more for the vacation just because of his
good fortune?"

Why do you think she is paying more for the vacation then she would have
spent before?

I think he's quite entitled to keep the gift to himself.  If I were him, I'd
end up spending some of the extra money on my SO. :-)  But, should he *have
to*?  No way, hose'! :-)

Why should it matter if the gift was 'asked for', or not?

I don't see any difference between 'his sister gave him 5k', and 'he got the
ticket for free'.  what difference do you see?

Jim. 

	 JayCee....

	 I think the gift certificate example someone gave hits the
	 nail on the head.

	 Your SO's sister is just passing along a benefit that he
         rightly gets (by virtue of being her brother, he should get
         the ticket free...most airlines do this for relatives) so in
         essence SHE did not give him the ticket, she just used her
         connections to "get" it for him.  It was not a birthday gift
         or a christmas gift, or a "just because" gift, it was just
         someone helping him get a good deal.  Although I would still
         think he was being tacky by not sharing if it was a gift, I
         would think "less badly" of him. 

	 Are you on good terms/friends with his sister?  Maybe you
	 should discuss it with her...her intent may well have been to
	 help the "two of you" have a cheaper vacation by getting one
	 ticket free.  Or then again, her intent may have been to just
	 help her brother out and not you....Who knows?

	 Unfortunately, people are the way they are....maybe he's just
	 not understanding that it would hurt you...or maybe you need
	 to take a second look at what something like this could imply
	 about a long-term relationship!

	 Its sad that he won't share something like this out of the
	 goodness of his heart, but.......well...what do you do, eh?

	 Have fun in St. Croix and tell me how it is!  I may be going
	 in october! 8^)

	 kath

	     
    

    The best solution is not taking vacation!  But now what are you
    going to do with the free ticket?  Sell it, and buy six packs get
    drunk and forget the whole ordeal.  
    
    By the way what is "SO" and "IMO"?
    

    It seems that some people are rather quick to judge this guy when
    very little is known about him, the relationship, and the
    circumstances behind this whole situation.
    
    Depending on the seriousness of relationship, I may act axactly
    the same way as he did.  He *IS* covering his half of the expenses,
    regardless of where the money/benifits came from.  However, in my 
    particular case, my wife and I pay most of our expenses from a common
    pool so it doesn't really matter where the money came from.
    
    One point I would like to make, though, is that this situation really
    seems to be eating at you.  This could really put a damper on your
    trip.  You said yourself that your SO didn't see anything wrong with
    what he is doing; that alone tells you that he is not trying to hurt
    you.  If you don't think he is about to change his mind, perhaps
    it would be best to take it with a grain of salt before it ruins
    your trip, or worse.  And if you can't do that, perhaps the trip
    should be postponed until you both can get a handle on things.     
    
    I really don't think you should talk to his sister about this. 
    Why should she take the heat for helping out her brother?  It will
    probably only raise some resentment.                             
                                                             
                       
    Regards,
    Denis
    

    re: .0
    
        I think that you are wrong for expecting your SO to act the
    same way that you do.  By the same token it does tell you something
    about your SO that you might not have known or might not have had a
    chance to know before this incident occured.
    
        I agree with the previous previous noters who've stated that
    he is covering half of his expenses.  You are also covering the
    same amount that you would have been covering if he hadn't gotten
    the free ticket.
    
        I also think that you are only looking at his actions considering
    one motivation for him, selfishness.  Perhaps he arranged to get the
    ticket from his sister so that he could do something unexpected
    for you.  He may have wanted to surprise you, but had to tell you
    about the free ticket because he couldn't get it in April when your
    plans originally were.
    
        My opinion, you haven't lost anything.  Stop guessing what his
    motives are and enjoy the trip.  If after the trip you discover
    that his only motive was selfishness and you can't deal with that
    kind of selfishness you'll have to seriously consider what to do
    about your relationship.
    
    ASP
    
    P.S.  This whole incident reminds me of the lyrics from a Blondie
          song:
    
    "If I ever won a million dollars
     If I didn't give it all to you
     Would you loose interest, show me indifference
     Foot in the other shoe."

    
    
    JayCee,
    
    For what it's worth, I think I'd be upset too if I were in your
    shoes. 
    
    I'm looking at it from the following standpoint.  You and your SO
    decide to take a vaca.  It's gonna cost, say, $2,000, so you decide
    to split it.  Each of you are expected to pay $1,000.  He gets a
    free ticket worth $500 (remember, these numbers are just to play
    with).  That brings the total "out of pocket" expense for the trip
    down to $1,500.  I think you two should split this OUT OF POCKET
    expense down the middle.  Yes, it was his sister that helped him
    out with the free ticket, but shouldn't that benefit both of you
    seeing as both of you are paying for this trip?
    
     I think it would be fair for each of you to be paying $750 at this
    point, that would free up money for both of you.  Granted, as others
    have stated here, we don't know his motivation, but it does *appear*
    to be rather selfish of him.                                        
    
    I don't have any suggestions for you, other than to talk to him
    about it if it's really bothering you.  Hope everthing works out
    and that you have a wonderful vacation!
    
    Regards,
    Cherie

    
.6 >     I didn't quite understand your hypothetical example?
.6 >     
.6 >     ... He got the ticket for free, so even if he is still
.6 >     splitting the entire expense, he stills ends up paying less
.6 >     than he would have normally if he didn't have the free ticket.

Saying that he got the ticket for free ACTUALLY means he received a
gift of the dollar value of the ticket. It's HIS money and he is not
obligated to share it with his SO. 
    

.6 >     It works the same way when we go out to dinner with friends, and
.6 >     we have a gift certificate.  We apply the gift certificate toward
.6 >     the total bill, and then split what ever amount is left
.6 >     with the other couple.

You are very generous to do so, because you are treating your 
friends to half the value of your certificate.


.6 >	We wouldn't expect them
.6 >    to pay half the total bill, when we had a gift certificate that
.6 >    cost "us" nothing out of our pocket.

It is immaterial whether you got it for free, actually paid for it 
or even stole it. It's yours to do with as you please. The base
noter's SO chose to keep what's his to himself. That's his
prerogative. 


.12> ... someone helping him get a good deal.  Although I would still
.12> think he was being tacky by not sharing if it was a gift, I
.12> would think "less badly" of him.

I don't see the difference. How he got it has nothing to do with 
the case. It's his now and he's entitled to use it as he sees fit.


.13>   >Why do you think she is paying more for the vacation then she would have
.13>   >spent before?
.13> 
.13> not what she would have spent before....she will be paying more than
.13> 1/2 the total cost.

Not true. She is still paying half the cost. So does he. The only
difference is, part of his half comes from his sister's gift. 


.7>	You are right that I wouldn't expect him to split a $5000 gift with
.7>     me, and I don't EXPECT/ASSUME that he would split this with me either,
.7>     but I know what I would do, and that's were this is all coming from.

JC, I think I understand exactly where you are coming from. There
are two separate issues here. On the 'legal' level, you accept that
he has the **right** to keep the free ticket. On the personal level, 
you **wish** he was more generous, as you would have been. 

Personally, I quite agree with you: when I had an SO, we used each 
other's money and never kept accounts, so the idea of "what's mine is 
mine" in a relationship is foreign to me. But that does not detract 
from the man's rights.

You did not ask for advice, but I'll think aloud, anyway. If it were
me, I would take the trip and enjoy it, accepting his decision. Some
time afterwards, I would do a lot of communicating, to see if I can
achieve a better balance of mine/yours/ours in the relationship. 

I hope you have a wonderful vacation.

-- Ron

    This is a strange one...  I can see both sides of the issue, but I
    don't think that there is a right and a wrong involved.  It's not
    like looking up the spelling of a word in the dictionary.
    
    If I were JayCee's SO, I would be delighted to use the free ticket
    to lower the total cost of our trip, and would split the remaining
    costs.  In fact, I do things like this often; I have various discount
    cards that give me reduced prices on meals and hotels.  When I have
    invoked one of these with an SO or a date, (when it was understood
    that we were splitting the expenses), in my mind the discount simply
    lowered the total cost and we'd split the remainder.  That the
    discount was "mine" (because I had paid for the discount card)
    was immaterial.  It never occurs to me to make my partner pay
    for her share before the discount.
    
    But that's me, and I'm not JayCee's SO.
    
    What I see here is an issue of communication and possible disrespect
    for feelings.  I think if I were in JayCee's position, I'd feel
    annoyed too.  And I'd start to wonder about my SO, and what
    life might be like down the road for us.
    
    The only advice I have for you, JayCee, is to sit down with your SO
    and make sure he understands your feelings, and get this issue
    resolved BEFORE you leave on the trip.  Otherwise you're going to
    find yourself building resentment against him all the time, and that
    will put a serious damper on your fun.
    
    				Steve

    interesting...
    
    At first glance it appears that more women then men think he should
    share his sister's "gift," while more men than women think the "gift"
    should be his to use toward his share of the costs.
    
    [Let me put the helmet on before you start on my head folks...]
    
    Anyone consider changing the roles and seeing if you come to the
    same conclusions?
    
    As in suppose it was her sister who gave her the gift... would those
    of you who say he should share the gift now still feel the same
    way?
    
    Now let's see how to handle inviting someone to go skiing out west
    and use my frequent flyer mileage... I *do* think of that as something
    I earned... rather painfully on occaision...
    
    R.
    

    re .19
    
    	Ditto Steve!
    
    If there's gonna be a future, there's GOTTA be communication!  I
    am marrying my SO next month and have been spending the last 2 years
    not even worrying about "WHO" is gonna pay for the bill, it has
    always been understood that the relationship is "OURS" which means
    that everything is done "TOGETHER", including expenses.
    
    Don't just "talk" with him JayCee, communicate with him, there is
    a difference.
    
    
    -jeff-

    
    
    	Hi JayCee
    
    	I think your SO is mean, selfish and not worth going
    	on holiday with, however, if you decide to go - I suggest
    	the following:               ----------
        
    	.GO ON VACATION TOGETHER, BUT DON'T SPLIT ANY OF THE COST.
    	.GO ON YOUR OWN.
    	.INVITE A 'REAL FRIEND', AND LET HIM DO AS HE WISHES.
    	
    	and then tell him why you are doing this.
                                               
    
    	Regards
    	Aileen	

    Did the sister even TRY to get her a discount ticket?  I mean the
    fiancee or SO of a relative is often considered close enough to
    be called "family".  If she is not above pulling strings for one
    ticket, why not two?
    
    Also, if his financial income is much less than hers, I can see
    his being unable to pay half the total cost AFTER the ticket is
    subtracted, and thus he may have a case for not wanting to pay
    half-minus-air-fare.  
    
    I'd say he's being selfish, but if you're SO's you've probably known
    him for a long time - can you think of a different reason for his
    behavior?
    
    -Jody
    
    p.s.  With previous SO's, we always split all the living finances
    (we lived together)....but when you live apart and don't share
    expenses, there is no "OUR MONEY", just "YOURS" and "MINE".
    

    I know what my "SO" would do.  He would probably GIVE me the free
    tickets and pay for 2 more.  But that is how he is.  Not everyone
    is like that, though.
    
    I think the entire cost of the trip should be split in two.  Even
    if one set of tickets were free.  I say "50/50"...since that's how
    it was decided in the beginning when you were planning the trip.

    Just one woman's opinion.
    
    
    -Dotti.    

    Ok everyone, I was going to try and reply to all the notes one at
    a time, but with all the responses I got, I am just going to tell you
    what's happening at this moment:
    
    We had a very long and tedious talk last night, with no yelling
    and screaming, just alot of talking/communicating.  Thank God we
    are both not screamers, or this discussion probably would not have
    worked.  Anyway, here is the outcome of this discussion:
    
    1) He didn't think that we had AGREED to split the vacation....he
    said that he would pay his airfare, I would pay mine, and we would
    split all the other costs...ok, first sign of miscommunication.
    
    2) He (as someone mentioned) does make less than me (about 10K less
    a year), and although he doesn't pay rent, he does have other expenses,
    and didn't think that he could afford to split my air with me.
    
    3) He got very mad that I had ASSUMED that he would split the airfare
    difference.....I made that assumption on the fact that we are a
    couple, and he on the fact that we are not married, and although
    we are both very good about splitting costs when we go out (he buys
    one night, I buy the next, etc.) he didn't feel that this was the
    same.  I'm sort of ambivilent about this, because I thought that
    sharing was sharing....didn't change for different times.
    
    4) We have decided to go on the trip, I am paying my air, he is
    splitting the hotel with me.  What came out of the discussion was
    that, as he put it, would have had the extra money to do something
    romantic with it had I not expected the split.  He's upset that
    I expected/assumed something, and didn't give him a chance to show
    me what he would do with the extra money....Ok, I jumped to some
    conclusions, but I told him that had he said something to me like
    "Gee, this is great, now that I don't have to pay for my air, I'll
    pick up all the dinners" or something like that, I would have known
    right off the bat that he wasn't being selfish, just saving the
    surprises of the money for later on.
                                                     
    Needless to say, we both have to realize that there are two sides
    to a story...and that both of us have a habit of jumping to
    conclusions.  I guess I've learned a lesson not to jump to conclusions
    without giving him a chance to explain, and I hope that he as learned
    that there are two of us in this relationship, and sharing is something
    that happens with two people in a relationship.  He is such a
    wonderful guy, and I know that he would never deliberately hurt
    me...
    
    
    Thanks to all for the replies....i printed out most of them last
    night and showed the responses to Jack....he actually had a few
    choice things to say about some of them....but for the most part,
    with all of your help, he understood where I was coming from, and
    I know that this will be resolved.  Maybe an extra night in St.
    Croix on him???  Who knows, but I will not assume anything anymore.
     I hope he can deal with that, because some of the assumptions I
    make benefit him, and now that won't happen.  We will really have
    to take this one step at a time, and see where it changes from here.
    
    But thanks again to this entre community of human relators....nice
    to know that sanity checks are only a note away.
    
    Regards,
    JayCee
    

It figures...

I'm a bit miffed that it seems typical that the women noters expect the gift to
be shared.

Can't 'a get it, that it was given to *him*, and it's up to *him* what to do
with it?  No, you put him in a situation where he *has to* be "generous", or he
ends up being "selfish".  You don't allow him to just be himself.  And what kind
of generosity is it when it has to be forced?  That's not "generosity", and you
might as well come right out and say that you expect your cut of *his* good
fortune.  Remind me to tell you about the guy who won 7M$ in the lottery and
ended up with 7K$ after all his women were through with him...

Sure, I'd probably be delighted that *I* had some extra money to play with on
the vacation, and *I* would probably be trying to think of a nice surprise for
my SO, but it is *MY* choice to make, and I sure wouldn't spend it on such
after being *expected* to 'generous'.

Now maybe I'd think differently if the couple normally had a joint financial
arrangement.  Then, the point is moot.  But while a couple has seperate
finances, what's his is his, and what's hers is hers, not what's hers is hers
and what's his is his.  Or maybe this is another example of women expecting men
to fork it over and pay up the nose. 

I'll apoligize in advance for the preceeding remarks, but I won't take them
back.  It's a sore point for me. 

Jim.

>>Or maybe this is another example of women expecting men
>>to fork it over and pay up the nose. 
>>
>>I'll apoligize in advance for the preceeding remarks, but I won't take them
>>back.  It's a sore point for me. 

	 apology or not, *I'm* still offended!  I don't except ANY man
	 to fork over ANYTHING and pay through the NOSE for anything.
	 I expect a man to be caring and sharing.  If JayCee's SO had
	 just EXPLAINED why he didn't want to share the ticket in the
	 first place, nothing would have been wrong!  There was
	 nothing wrong with keeping the ticket to himself,...but there
	 was something wrong with the "selfish" attitude he seemed to
	 have projected (maybe not meaning to).  Everything seems to
	 be straightened out and he had a valid reason for not sharing
	 the ticket.  Communication lines need to stay open to avoid
	 an unfortunate misunderstanding like this.

	 Jim, please keep your deragatory generalizations about women
	 out of the notesfiles.  Constructive comments are what this
	 notesfile is about, not expressing generalizations and
	 stereotypes.

	 thank you......

	 kathy

>    did you mean "what's hers is hers and what's his is half hers...?"
    

	 she's already stated that what's hers is his........

    re: .26
    
    FLAME ON!! BIG TIME FLAME!!!
    
    Jim,  
    
    For what it's worth...I don't think your apology means anything
    to me, and as the base noter, I am EXTREMELY offended that you would
    even think to answer this without reading my reply (I think it's
    .25)...
    
    I never, as I have stated in the base note, and in my replies,
    EXPECT/ASSUME anything, and that line about "maybe this is
    another example of women expecting men to fork it over and pay up
    the nose" must be from your own past experiences.  It's really to
    bad that your dates/girlfriends feel that you should "pay out the
    nose"....must be some reflection on the kind of guy you are. 
         
    FLAME OFF...
    
    Jack and I always share expenses, especially here in NY.  Can't expect
    anyone to take anyone else out all the time, unless he's a millionaire. 
    
    And a note to Kath...thanks for gettin g a reply in so fast....I
    would have FLAMED before this, but this is the first time I got
    a chance to get back into the file!  Thanks for the vote of confidence.
                
    Sorry I started a riot here....JayCee
    

    a month ago, my girlfriend flew here from her home.  we split the
    cost of her fare.
    
    on the way back, she relinquished her seat and was awarded a "free"
    ticket to anywhere from anywhere.  
    
    tomorrow, we are leaving for vacation.  she is using her "free"
    ticket, and i am using one i bought.  she is splitting half of my
    ticket's cost.  
    
    we'd have done the vacation anyway.. each paying half of the total
    expenses.  the fact that she is now using a free ticket only reduces
    the total expenses.  we both will benefit.
    
    i can't conceive of a circumstance where either one of us would
    not desire to pay half of OUR expenses.
    
    i think your guy is wrong.
    
    tony

Ok, out of read mode to satisfy my curiosity:

>	 apology or not, *I'm* still offended!  I don't except ANY man
>	 to fork over ANYTHING and pay through the NOSE for anything.
>	 I expect a man to be caring and sharing.  

If the man must be sharing, does not that mean something is being given by
him?  How can you 'share' something without 'forking over' part of that
something?

>If JayCee's SO had just EXPLAINED why he didn't want to share the ticket in the
>first place, nothing would have been wrong!  

Why does the owner of the ticket have to explain his actions (actually,
inactions) to anyone?  If the miscommunication was evident from the beginning,
then one might be expected.

>	 be straightened out and he had a valid reason for not sharing
>	 the ticket.  

Is there a list of 'valid reasons' kept around somewhere for cases like this?:-)
Why is this reason valid while the owner of something doing what he wants with
it not a valid reason?  Why is a reason even needed/expected?

>	 Jim, please keep your deragatory generalizations about women
>	 out of the notesfiles.  Constructive comments are what this
>	 notesfile is about, not expressing generalizations and
>	 stereotypes.

So, what about all the responses that called the man in .0 mean, selfish etc?
Those terms seem to be on the deragatory side.  Don't you agree?  Were they
ok (because they were aimed at a specific person) as opposed to a generalized
comment?

re: $7 M down to $7K?  Is that for real?  :-)

-a reader until now

>If the man must be sharing, does not that mean something is being given by
>him?  How can you 'share' something without 'forking over' part of that
>something?

He could 'share' by telling her in the first place that now he would have a
little extra $ to make their stay more fun!  In that respect he is still
'sharing' the benefits.

>Why does the owner of the ticket have to explain his actions (actually,
>inactions) to anyone?  If the miscommunication was evident from the beginning,
>then one might be expected.

it would sure be the basis of any relationship *I* was in.  A relationship
without communication and understanding is not a very stable one. (IMHO)

>Is there a list of 'valid reasons' kept around somewhere for cases like this?:-)
>Why is this reason valid while the owner of something doing what he wants with
>it not a valid reason?  Why is a reason even needed/expected?

He hurt her feelings ... Any 'reason' would be valid if he explained it to
her....instead of just saying 'NO'.

>So, what about all the responses that called the man in .0 mean, selfish etc?
>Those terms seem to be on the deragatory side.  Don't you agree?  Were they
>ok (because they were aimed at a specific person) as opposed to a generalized
>comment?

He WAS being mean and selfish by not sharing with her WHY he didn't want to
do it!  You call hurting someone else's feelings okay?

>re: $7 M down to $7K?  Is that for real?  :-)

what's money?  I'd rather share "feelings" and "love" and "experiences".
And I'd rather have COMMUNICATION.....

kat

>He could 'share' by telling her in the first place that now he would have a
>little extra $ to make their stay more fun!  In that respect he is still
>'sharing' the benefits.

I took the 'sharing' part to refer to the actual splitting of the ticket and
not sharing of information.  So, are you saying there should be no surprises?

>it would sure be the basis of any relationship *I* was in.  A relationship
>without communication and understanding is not a very stable one. (IMHO)

So who is arguing about communication and understanding?  As stated, I had
the impression that the man had to JUSTIFY his position, not reveal it.
And it still seems it is really about not splitting the ticket versus
anything else.  I would appreciate any insights into this.

>He hurt her feelings ... Any 'reason' would be valid if he explained it to
>her....instead of just saying 'NO'.

And did she not hurt his by requiring an explanation?  I believe the follow on
comments said as much.  Was that ok?

>He WAS being mean and selfish by not sharing with her WHY he didn't want to
>do it!  

Calling the person mean etc is still derogatory.  Inferring that the person
is not a 'real' friend is also derogatory.  Don't you agree?

>You call hurting someone else's feelings okay?

No.  But from the text given, both people has feelings stomped on.  Why are
the feelings of only one side considered here?  Perhaps because the recipient 
of those derogatory remarks cannot rebut those comments.

>what's money?  I'd rather share "feelings" and "love" and "experiences".
>And I'd rather have COMMUNICATION.....

So would I.  But if the numbers are to be believed, then there appear to be
people who would rather have the money (I have run into such people).

-a soon_to_be_reader_again

"I don't except ANY man to fork over ANYTHING and pay through the NOSE for
anything."

Good for you!  (and any men in your life...)  I believe you...

"I expect a man to be caring and sharing." 

But he never had a chance to be caring and sharing!  If the 'he's being selfish'
attitude hadn't come up untill after the trip, it wouldn't have come up at all. 

"If JayCee's SO had just EXPLAINED why he didn't want to share the ticket in the
first place"

Kind of hard to surprise your SO when you have to explain what's going on all
the time...  Reminds me of a person who was miffed that their SO never bought
them any cards.  They were always together, and there was never any time to get
cards when they weren't together so that they could surprise them!  *sigh*
sometimes you just can't win.... 

"There was nothing wrong with keeping the ticket to himself,...but there was
something wrong with the "selfish" attitude he seemed to have projected"

Oh?  Suppose you explain a situation where he could have kept the ticket
to himself without everybody trying to make him feel guilty?

"Jim, please keep your deragatory generalizations about women out of the
notesfiles."

I realize that it is a generalization, and I apoligize to the women to whom it
does not apply.  However, there are a sizable number of women that it does apply
to that it is valid. At least 10%. Just as there is stereotypical male bahavior
women don't like, there is stereotypical female behavior that I don't like. 

"I am EXTREMELY offended that you would even think to answer this without
reading my reply"

I did read it.  That's what told me how typical the whole situation is. Without
reading your reply I never would have assumed what you said in .25. 

"I never, as I have stated in the base note, and in my replies, EXPECT/ASSUME
anything,"

Oh, what about... 

"He got very mad that I had ASSUMED that he would split the airfare difference"

"and that both of us have a habit of jumping to conclusions."

"I made that assumption on the fact that we are a couple,"

"He's upset that I expected/assumed something" 

"Ok, I jumped to some conclusions"

"I guess I've learned a lesson not to jump to conclusions without giving him a
chance to explain" 

"that line about "maybe this is another example of women expecting men to fork
it over and pay up the nose" must be from your own past experiences" 

Yes, most of that is from my past experiences.  That AND the replies made by
females here in H_R support the generalization I made. 

"It's really to bad that your dates/girlfriends feel that you should "pay out
the nose"....must be some reflection on the kind of guy you are"

Hmmm...  Can't say I've had the problem with dates or girlfriends...  it's
usually a bit later when they sink their hooks into you (joke).  It doesn't
happen that often to make me suspect that it's me.

"I made that assumption on the fact that we are a couple, and he on the fact
that we are not married, and although we are both very good about splitting
costs when we go out (he buys one night, I buy the next, etc.) he didn't feel
that this was the same"

There's a BIG difference between splitting costs on dates, and splitting living
costs when you are living together.  Or living together and keeping seperrate
finances.  Does he pay half of your rent?  :-)  Wake up. :-|

"I guess I've learned a lesson not to jump to conclusions without giving him a
chance to explain" 

Why don't you just stop jumping to conclusions.  He doesn't owe you an
explaination at every drop of the hat! 

"because some of the assumptions I make benefit him"

Oh?  How does paying half of your plane ticket benifit him?

"He hurt her feelings"

No way.  He did not do anything "to her".  She choose to feel hurt based on a
bad assumption *she* made. 

"re: $7 M down to $7K?  Is that for real?  :-)"

Yup...  This man bought a NY lottery ticket.  When he found out it was the
winning ticket, he gave it to his girl friend for safekeeping.  The girlfriend's
lawyer (and a judge) said that that entitled her to half of the 7M$.  The
ex-wife's lawyer (and a judge) said that the ex-wife was entitled to half of the
remainder.  The man had to pay all three lawyers, AND taxes on the whole thing!

Owe, well... :-> Easy come... Easy goooooooo! :->>>>>

Jim :->

    
    I can't believe he won't share his good luck with his life's partner!
    It's selfish little incidents like this that add up into BIG problems
    in a relationship!
    

    Hi,
    
    Unfortunately I feel that if he is lucky enough to be able to reduce
    the cost of his trip with a free airline ticket you should perhaps
    be envious of this situation but not expect him to share this freebe
    with you.
    
    Mike P.

    The numbers won't quite add... there are some overlaps...
    
    13 people indicated that he should share the out of pocket costs
    or that he was not right for not sharing.
    
    Of these 8 were women, 4 men, and 1 not ascertainable as to gender
    
    7 people suggested that the free fair was his to use as part of
    his share of the costs.
    
    All 7 were men.  A couple of these indicated that if it were them,
    they would share.
    
    Two of the men made a particular point that the issue was communication
    rather than sharing.
    
    One person suggested forgetting the whole thing (not a bad idea
    given the heat this seems to have caused).
    
    
    
    
    I suggest that this is worth looking at from the perspective of
    how the different genders approach it.  That's where JC may have
    given the rest of us something to learn from.
    
    One last note -- "selfish," or any other descriptive is a perception
    of the beholder... no one *is* selfish like a thing or a fact except
    in the perception of someone else.
    
    If that's hard, substitute the word "generous..." the same thing
    applies.
    
    R.

< Note 672.14 by SSDEVO::NGUYEN >
    
>     By the way what is "SO" and "IMO"?
    
	SO = "Significant Other"
	IMO = "In my opinion"

Others you may also come across in NOTES:

	IMHO = "In my humble opinion"
	BTW = "By the way"

There are a few more standard ones, but I don't remember them
off the top of my head....

-- Cathy

Well, there's:


	FWIW = For what it's worth
and

	(S)WAG = (Silly) wild-@$$ed guess

just to add a couple more.

Pete

    A suggestion from your friendly local moderator - please use MAIL
    to ask and respond to tangential questions that aren't related to
    the topic under discussion.  Thanks.
    
    			Steve

    Yes, it would seem there was a basic lack of communication regarding
    the ground rules.  She assumed (yes, ASS U ME'd) that splitting the
    costs meant splitting the costs.  Since the free ticket was not a cost,
    I do not include it.  
    
    He assumed (same ASS U ME) that the basis was that each traveler was on
    his or her own regards air fare and that the OTHER expenses associated
    with the trip were to be split.
    
    As many previous respondents have pointed out, there is no right or
    wrong here.  However, I feel a certain bias towards the woman's
    position since the second arrangement would, naturally, leave the man
    in a more favorable economic position, and because he did not offer to
    share his sister's gift.  Were he my gentleman friend, I'd have been
    happy to have him offer and then discuss the alternatives such as putting
    the equivalent amount of the one ticket toward their next trip, or
    using it for mad money on this trip. 
    
    If he simply could not afford to cut the (real) expenses in half, he
    could have said so and said that, were it not for his sister's help, he
    could not have gone at all.  I'm guessing that this is closest to the
    truth but that ego got in the way of communication.
    
    Marge
    
    

    I have a thought I'd like to share regarding $$$.
    
    	There are 2 types of money
    	       * money you need to pay bills with(non-discretionary)
               * funny money
                 
    In order to be fair, one may consider who has more of type #2.
    
    I have been forced to pay half of the bills when I have a husband
    (not an SO. An ISO.Figure that out) who made twice as much and had
    enough in the bank to pay cash for at least one nice car. Don't
    get me going. 
    
    Good luck to you, JC.
    
    Kate
    

    Jaycee:  it sounds to me like your SO is having to scrape more
    than you are to pay for this trip.  Getting the free ticket may
    have meant that he gets to eat hamburger once in a while, instead
    of beans!
    
    You didn't say whether you two were living separately or together.
    However, in situations where people of differing incomes live together,
    the money situation can become even more difficult.  There seem
    to be three major ways to solve it:
    
    50/50 method - each person pays half.  This means that either both
    	people agree to live at a standard that the person with a lower
    	income finds comfortable (ie, he/she still can afford a new
    	pair of jeans once in a while), or the lower income person is
    	always scraping bottom.
    
    Even percentage method - a certain percentage of each person's
    	pay goes toward household expenses.  The rest is for their own,
    	unjustified, use.  The person who earns less still has less
    	money, but at least they have SOME.

    One pot/even distribution method - all pay goes into one pot.  Each
    	person gets the same amount of fun money, after the bills are
    	paid.  The drawback with this method is that it provides little
    	incentive for the lower paid person to improve his/her pay.
        In some cases, such as one person raising the kids while the
    	other works, or both people working hard but one is in a lower
    	paid field, that's ok since noone's shirking anything.  In other
    	cases, the incentive you get with the previous two methods is
    	a vital element.  And sometimes the lower paid person will WANT
    	to pay more than this method allows, just so they pay what they
    	consider a "fair share".
    
    Unless I were living in a committed relationship with my SO, I would
    not have considered the gift ticket to be any of my business.  If
    I knew that my SO earned considerably less than I did, I would not
    have accepted the 50/50 split in the first place, without arguing
    that I should pay more.
    
    --Louise

	It's interesting to me the way some of these topics come up at
certain times in my life.  Here's another note which touches upon something
which happened to me at the same time!


	For some time now, my girlfriend and I have been talking about going
on a vacation this summer.  Nothing real serious yet, we've both been way
too busy to do any serious planning, but just kinda tossing around ideas. A
California trip is what we're currently contemplating.  Anyway, although we
never came out and explicitly said it, I *know* that we both assumed that
the costs would be split 50/50 (yes, assumptions *are* dangerous but in this
case, where we're SO much alike -- especially on something like this -- I
don't think it was wrong).  Now, sometime last week, about the same time this
note started up, I received in the mail a couple of vouchers from American
Express for $99 round-trip air fare to wherever Northwest Airlines flies. I
was ecstatic!  The only downers were that *I* personally had to use them,
and they weren't concurrent -- one was good until July of this year, the
other until January of next year.  So, obviously, there's no way we could
both directly benefit from this.


	Then, without even thinking about it (and before I'd read these
notes), I told her that we'd still split the air fare 50/50.  For example,
if her air fare costs $300 round-trip, then we'll each pay $200.  I was
happy at my good fortune, but wanted to share that good fortune with someone
I really care about.  I just wouldn't feel right doing it any other way.


	It seems to me the *real* problem here was the assumptions *both*
people made.  The share/not share question is simply a symptom of a deeper
problem (ie, lack of communication).  And since it sounds to me as if both
people were equally guilty, I don't believe I can say "He was wrong" or
"She was wrong" -- "They were both wrong".  Assumptions are such nasty
things because they're so easily made and they can do so much damage if
left unchecked.


	My opinions, for what they're worth.


Brian

    I just fell into this rathole and read *every* reply!
    
    To the original noter:  Whatever did you finally decide?
    
    One of the frustrations I encounter sometimes in these notes is
    *never* learning the outcome!  
    
    Marilyn

    re: -1
    
    Marilyn,
    
    Note .25 sort of says what the outcome of the discussion was....we
    are still going on vacation, but the extra three days that we are
    staying is going to be taken care of by my SO.  He finally understood
    about the "sharing" idea of a trip, and has offered to take care
    of those extra days.
    
    This whole ordeal was a great lesson in learning about your partner...
    
    JayCee
    
    THANKS EVERYONE.....
    

    I was already a bit hot when I started to read this, so it may be
    a bit of a flammable reply, but I say -
    
    Find somebody who *is* willing to split the cost 50/50, and let
    your SO[B] fly on his free ticket himself!!
    
    I would really think again and again about continuing a relationship
    with someone with his attitude.
    
    Paula

    Obviously a case of selfishness - think carefully of you rfuture
    with this person - perhaps there is none.
    
    
    	Guy B.
    

I found this particular note very interesting, thanks for sharing it with us.

The issue has been more or less resolved and allot of good points were 
discussed. Personally I would have split the ticket with my SO, however, 
if she got a freebe and did not want to split it with me, I would not make 
an issue of it, $100 is not worth it. You stated that he is pretty good most 
of time, give the guy break. There are people spending thousands of dollars 
to find a relationship that is tolerable. Maybe it's the principle of thing, 
"I'd do it for you, but you wouldn't do it for me", that's enough to frost 
anybody's cookies to the superconductor level. If I where you, I would not 
worry about it because what goes around comes around, and next time you will 
score the tickets to that concert that only comes once every decade or a 
certificate to that fancy restaurant that doesn't have any prices
on the menu. Then you can give him a lesson in sharing or you can make him
pay you half, or better yet, take someone else. Is this any way to run a 
relationship? YES! Treat people like they treat you. The ultimate would be
winning the lottery with a ticket that you bought. Then it would be your money
and you could say "let's take 6 month trip around the world, Dutch treat". 
Realize this type revenge only happens in the movies.

BruceG

    
    	RE: .-1
    
    	 That isn't the golden rule I heard. The one I see in this
    	crazy world is "the one who has the gold, makes the rules".
    
    	;^>
    
    	G_B

RE: 672.56
    
Don't get me wrong, I am not saying bring yourself to curb level, what I am 
saying is don't be a door mat. If you know someone would not do for you what 
you would do for them, Why then would you continue to treat them with your 
generosity??? Maybe in hopes that they will catch on, Maybe they will, or 
maybe they won't. Maybe you could nag them about it until it becomes explosive.
If they finally do it, you'll know it not from the heart, It will be from 
you being on their back. Sometimes people don't understand where you are coming
from unless they are put into the same situation.
    
    
    BruceG