Conference quark::human_relations-v1

    That's a tough one.  ANd a lot depends on you nd how you feel about it.
    I read somewhere once that it is not uncommon for a divorced couple to 
    have an 'affair' after they'd divorced.  But that's beside the point.
    
    If it's bothering you then perhaps explaining the entire situation to 
    your boyfriend will help, if it's love he'll be able to forgive you.
    
    Then again, it may be best to keep quiet about it and not say anything.
    It depends on the type person your boyfriend is, and weather you can
    live with what's happened or not.
    
    SKip

    Take it easy!  This is an event that causes you to make some major
    decisions.  If you do indeed want to forget this ex, then do and
    realize that you are or can be attracted to him.  Then take appropriate
    steps to not let yourself be in the situation again.
    
    If you really know that you intend to make a committment to your
    new guy, then go all the way.  But, if questions linger, do both
    yourselves favors and separate.  Date both your guys and see where
    your devotion does in fact lie.
    
    If I were your new guy, and you spilt the beans to me, I would
    definitely leave until you could make up your mind.  I wouldn't
    want a 1/2ass relationship.   
    
    This is exactly what I told a new beau in my life some time ago.
     And I have more respect for myself as well as for him, therefore.
    Needless to say, my ex and I have rejoined after a 5 year divorce,
    though we have not remarried.

      I think I would start by saying that you have clearly betrayed your 
    current relationship.   I in this case would come clean with yourself
    and your current boyfriend, if you care about the guy you will be
    truthful with him.  As for your ex, I would ax him from your life
    whether you stay with the current or not,  he made his feelings clear
    when he departed before.   I would say don't hide things from your 
    current, yes you might loose him by telling him, but you will lose him
    for sure if he finds out later.  Most people would not agree with this,
    but I believe in confronting things and being truthful. If you don't
    tell him, you first of all had whatever it was with your ex, and kept 
    something from him as well.   
       I hope things work out for you, but always put yourself in the 
    other persons shoes.
    
    Bigilo

    I would strongly suggest you NOT volunteer this to your current
    boy-friend.  Unless you want to hurt him and run the risk of breaking
    up your relationship with him.
    
    Just because you took a tumble with your ex doesn't mean you want to
    get back together with him.  But, if you DO want to, then be honest
    with your boyfriend and (one of you) move out 'till you find out what
    you really want.  But, it's not necessary to tell him about the fling.  
    That'd only hurt him unnecessarily.
    
    If your heart is really with your boyfriend, learn to live with your
    guilt and resolve never to fall again.  However, you should STILL never
    volunteer the information.  
    
    tony
    

    
    I'd say stay away from your ex, and tell the truth to your current
    boyfriend.  But that's because I've been stung in the past by people
    WAITING to tell me the truth, or lying to me and me finding out from
    other directions what REALLY happened.  I feel it hurts less to hear it
    now and deal with the fallout honestly, hoping his love for you and
    your love for him can triumph over the situation, than to let the
    fallout grow and molder and snowball into any future you create.
    
    -Jody
    

        If you forgive yourself, you won't/don't need anyone else's
    forgiveness.  The key is in forgiving yourself.  You feel guilt.
    Guilt is not a "real" emotion (real emotions have both positive and
    negative potentials...guilt is only negative.)  Guilt is actually
    a form of anger...anger at something you feel you don't have a 
    right to feel angry about.  In any case, as you discover your
    anger (at him, at yourself, at your current boyfriend for "putting
    you in this position") you can release it.   After acknowledging 
    your anger and coming to terms with the realization that you are
    human and you made a mistake and that all humans are entitled to
    make mistakes, then forgive yourself.  Truly forgive yourself.
    Then decide that you have learned a valuable lesson and as a 
    consequence of that lesson you have new principles in your life.
    Your new principle is (perhaps) that you will never involve yourself
    sexually with someone else as long as you might have a negative 
    impact of someone else with is significant to you (e.g.)  Then
    make the conscious choice to change, to be a new person.  Once this
    process is done, and you are secure in your position, *then* you can
    consider whether or not to tell your current mate.  You may very
    well decide not to, since this event will simply have been a past
    lesson.  It is *not* written in stone that you need to tell your
    current mate.  Your guilt will putrify, however, if you don't deal 
    with it.  However, it may be wise to determine that your health
    (AIDS, primarily) hasn't been compromised so that you don't also
    have a negative physical impact on your current partner.  
         "You need to be brutally truthful with yourself, tactfully
    honest with others."  --Lazaris
    
    Frederick
    

    Hmmm.  My first take on this is that your ex is abusing you.  Why
    wouldn't you find him attractive and hard to resist.  You married him
    once, obviously there was something there.  To leave you, then want to
    have an "affair" with you is pretty darned low.
    
    As for telling, you must tell if there is any real chance that your
    current SO will find out about the incident.  Hearing it elsewhere is a
    real ego crusher.  You MUST tell if there is any occurrence o f an STD
    or probability of exposure (and you cannot trust your ex).  Otherwise,
    telling is one of two things, either it is seeking punishment for your
    wrong deed (and hopefully absolution) or it is a desire to hurt your
    current SO emotionally.  If it is just a case of tell or live with your
    guilt, work on living with your guilt, it should be your burden.
    
    Beyond that, I believe in the importance and commitment of people to
    each other, unfortunately, it doesn't always work out that way.  If you
    can't be committed be honest and deal with how your needs and desires
    do or do not coincide with those of the people you love.  
    
    As for commitment, I've been committed several times ---
    
    
    
    but I'm feeling much better now ;->
    
    jimc

    
    	Hi,
    
    	Have you ever come to terms with how you really feel about your ex?
    I'm sorry, but you two having "a glass of wine" sound *invitational*
    on your part. I mean, at least one woman I know who was dumped by
    her ex (walked out on) would'nt invite him to share _anything_, now!
    
    	Perhaps your guilt is really so pronouced not so much because
    of what happened, but because of how you still feel toward him.
    You "cant live with yourself"? Maybe it's more that you're just not 
    able to deal with this level of emotional conflict. It's okay, that
    can happen to anyone who has unresolved feelings - that are now
    conflicting with their current lives.
    
    	I mean, I didnt hear any anger at this guy who walked out on
    you; *left you hangin'* and then waltzes on in for 5 minutes of your
    time...wants an affair! I would think you'd feel like *killing* him. 
    (It's okay to *feel* like killing him...just...dont actually do it)
    Maybe you feel - or think you feel - something else toward him still?
     
    	One thing you might try is going to a CODA meeting, and telling
    your story to the people there. Ask for help with getting through
    this and getting it sorted out. You had the courage to ask here
    for advice, that is commendable. It takes at lot more to walk into
    a meeting and ask for help, but if your trouble is bad enough, you'll
    find the courage to do that also.
    
    	Joe
    

    If he walked out on you, and abused you he certainly DOES NOT DESERVE a
    glass of wine from you! you, indirectly, are asking for more trouble.
    He broke a vow, he left you, ERASE HIM from your life! he does not
    deserve any place there...
    Come to peace with yourself, make a decision as to whom you REALLY love
    and then make a move... I wouldn't hurt your boyfriend though... he
    seems a nice person, I'd try, by all means not to hurt him and to live
    up to his expectations, (that means to forget your rotten ex and start
    new) and build love, honesty and trust with him...
    Your situation is not that tough, it is confusing, and you can help it.
    Lots of luck! Ana
    

    I want to thank you all for your replies.  (Especially .6 and .7)  
    Your 2 replies really hit home.  After reading .7 I started
    thinking.....why is it that my ex wants to have an affair now?  Why not
    during our 1 year separation period when there was noone else in my
    life?  All of a sudden, I am happy for the first time in a long time,
    have control over my life (up until recently) and he comes over with a
    bottle of wine and we have  a fling?   
    
    After doing some soul searching I realize that he cannot stand to see
    me so happy without him in my life.  I was really coping very well with
    the divorce and had my feelings for him in good perspective.   Now, he
    wants to start "seeing me" and I know it is just for sex.  I now feel
    he wants to come between me and my SO.  I now believe after doing some
    soul searching since this incident, that part of the reason it even
    happened was because a part of me still felt angry and rejected because
    of what he did to me 2 years ago and in some way I wanted to him to
    tell me he missed me and to ask me back so that I could tell him to
    *!*!*!*!* and possibly "pay back" some of the suffering I went through. 
    My ex is a very smooth, charming character; however, this incident has
    really made me "see the light" and resolve my feelings for him once and
    for all.  
    
    I still feel like I betrayed my SO and perhaps will always feel this
    way but I have decided not to  tell him.  I just cannot risk losing
    him.  I have vowed not to let this  incident happen again with my ex or
    anyone else.  I just hope I will be able to put this behind me and move
    on without letting it interfere.  I am a person with a very strong
    conscience.  (I know...I know....then why did it happen in the first
    place)
    

    
    Well done!  I can understand why this happened and sympathise with you. 
    There was obviously once some strong feelings between you and your ex,
    and it is easy to fall in to the old familiar trap of being seduced by
    an ex.  Luckily now you've recognised your ex for what he is, and
    decided to get him out of your life.
    
    I agree with your decision not to tell your SO, in this situation he is
    best left in blissful ignorance.
    
    Good luck, I hope you both have a very happy life together.
    
    Sam

    
    
    A relationship should be built on honesty.  I believe you should tell
    your boyfriend about what happened.  What if your ex got nasty and 
    decided to tell your boyfriend?  I'm sure the picture would be drawn quite
    differently from your description of 5 minutes-it sounds like you 
    didn't even *like* it.
    
    I agree with you that it's important to regain that self worth that you
    feel you lost when he walked out on you.  You have done that, he wants
    you.  You've regained that respect for yourself now you can move on.
    You've finished your relationship with your ex and have put things into
    perspective.  I'm sure your new love would feel better not worse
    knowing that you realize what's past is past, and that he IS the most
    important person in your life.
    
    You should give your new love some credit.  If you chalk this up as a
    learning experience you won't have to deal with the guilt for the rest
    of the relationship.  This will continue to be a barrier between you
    and your new love.  Don't let this happen!
    
    I wish you happiness in your new relationship.
    Tami
    
    
    
    

    In response to .12--
    
    I cannot tell my current SO what happened.  He has already shown his
    insecurities previously where my ex is concerned.  If I tell him this
    will just "confirm" his thoughts.  He will most definitely feel 
    threatened about it happening in the future.  When I was married to my
    ex, the reason for the break-up was because of his infidelity.  I could
    *NEVER* trust him again.  Even after he supposedly ended the affair it
    was  always in the back of my mind.  It crippled our relationship to
    the point of divorce.  I love this new man with all my heart and
    realize even more so since this incident happened just how much he
    means to me.  I cannot risk losing his trust and/or respect.  I have
    vowed *NEVER* to be unfaithful again and am being punished enough with
    my *own* guilt.  Why do 2 people have to suffer?  Isn't enough that
    this will be with me for the  rest of my life?  I know how it feels to
    be betrayed and let me tell you it is a heart-wrenching feeling no
    matter how much the other person explains what happened didn't really
    "mean anything".  I never got over it to the point where I could trust
    again.  I just cannot risk it. I know he would leave me and I can't
    stand the thought of him not believing in me anymore.
    

    
    
    This isn't about love. It's about respect. Some replies have indicated
    that if he loved you, he would stay. It is possible to leave the one
    you love simply because there is no respect in the relationship.
    
    It sounds to me that you just want to hide this from him and have
    justified it by saying that it is for HIS own good, that he shouldn't
    be hurt. When the fact of the matter is, YOU don't want to risk losing
    him. 
    
    You said that you don't want to lose his trust and respect, but it
    obviously makes no difference to you that this "trust and respect" is
    totally false since you have done nothing to earn it and are lying to
    keep it.
    
    It has been my experience that when people ask for advice, they just
    want to be told that what they plan on doing is o.k.
    
    Keeping the truth from him for selfish reasons is wrong. Would you want
    this done to you? The truth WILL come out eventually and you'll have to
    compound more lies to hide it from him.
    
    He has a right to know and you have a responsiblity to tell him.
    If he loves you, he will stay? Maybe, maybe not...
    If YOU love HIM, you will tell him.
    
    Sorry if what I've said bothers you, but I can't stand it when people
    make decisions for other people "For their own good".

    In a way, I think what your 'ex' did to you was a type of 'rape'.
    Often when women are taken advantage of sexually they feel guilty
    and ashamed and think that they did something to encourage, deserve
    the treatment they got. May I suggest that you are blaming your self
    and beating up on your self for something that was a case of another
    person using your vulnerability. If you tell your SO about what
    happened from the point of view that you were used, and taken advantage
    of, as it appears to have happened, then he may well be sympathetic.
    I suggest you contact a rape counciling center, what happened to you
    is an awful lot like 'date rape'.
    
    hugs
    
    Bonnie

    re.15
    Why, can't this woman possibly been sexually attracted to her ex.
     And then acted upon it?

    And further, perhaps she seduced him.  The wine was drank in her
    house.  Was it her wine?  She was asked to have an affair by her
    husband to which she replied "NO"; maybe her ex has been cheated
    too.                       
    
    If women make accusations that are so flimsy such as .15, then how
    are the real ones going to get merit?

    Vulnerability?  That's interesting!  Why would this woman be
    vulnerable to her ex, unless she does in fact have feelings still
    for him, which in this case she should avoid a heavy committment to
    her current beau or anybody. or avoid a glass wine with men she could
    become vulnerable with.                
    
    

    It just bothers me when the word "rape" is used when infact the
    word seduction or persuasion should be used.  Rape is a very strong
    word which means sex without mutual consent.  It's like the word
    "love", it's been so overly used that it no longer can be taken
    seriousily.  One should not toy around with such a word, it'll lose
    its force or real meaning when in court it'll really be grilled.

    re: .13
    
    If you don't tell your SO are you sure your ex-husband won't?

re .16 - .19

Are we missing the other halves of a conversation here? or were you just adding
single notes for effect?


Xtine

    Xtine
    
    I think I hit a 'hot button' of his...

I guess so...


It was just a little disconcerting to read what appeared to be a conversation...
but was missing every second reply... I actually went back and read them all
again as I wondered at first if I was somehow skipping two replies at once..

It was just that Monday morning confusion I guess ;-)...



Xtine

        I thought it was fairly clear that this act was one of mutual
    consent at the time of the event.  To bring up rape is punitive
    and irresponsible; this woman has already taken responsibility for
    what she did.  Good.  She was/is responsible.  Now then, the
    difficulty is that she is feeling *shame* and *guilt*.
        I already mentioned guilt.  It is clear from the subsequent
    replies that she has not yet dealt with the guilt.  As to shame,
    shame *is* a real emotion, unlike guilt.  Shame's positive component
    is remorse.  She has expressed remorse.  Good.  This is a major
    SELF-acknowledgement in order to releasing this event and getting
    on with her life.  
        A couple of these replies seem to indicate that she should be
    punished...(shades of religious beliefs...)   She has already 
    punished herself.  Now then, what is she supposed to do?  Be punished
    further?  Or, after accepting that she has punished herself enough
    and is now willing to forge ahead, is that not enough for someone else?
    Does someone else have to determine her punishment for her?  No.
    It is totally up to her.  She does not need to atone for her sins by
    telling her boyfriend.  If the relationship is as wobbly as she has
    indicated, it'll wobble elsewhere, too.  If, on the other hand,
    her process of remorse is sincere, and she has released this event
    as a mistake, AND she has become a new person, she can focus her
    energies and use her new dedication towards a stronger, closer union
    in her current relationship.  
         Why is it that people feel that others need to know everything?
    It isn't always prudent, you know?  Do you tell your mate about
    bathroom practices?  About masturbation practices?  About secret 
    thoughts/desires concerning others?  No one I know shares everything
    with someone else...it's not possible, anyway.  She does not need to
    share this event, a one-of-a-kind event, with her current lover.
    She *does* need to deal with the guilt...and she still has not done
    that.  She *does* need to forgive herself if she is to let it go
    to the past...she still has not done that, either.  Some of these
    replies would indicate that the only way to do it is to destroy the
    relatationship she has, which she has indicated it would do.  I
    suggest that a relationship this weak will fail anyway, unless there
    is a new dedication to strengthen it.  This event may very well be
    the inspiration to create a stronger relationship.  It will never
    be as strong as possible, however, without the self-forgiveness.  
    That is mandatory, for a clean slate.
    
    Frederick
    

    It wasn't really clear that it was an act of mutual consent.
    It was much more, to my mind, an act of seduction, which puts
    it possibly in the 'date rape' category.
    
    IMHO

    re: .24
    
    I'm sorry, but I have to say that I think it IS her current boyfriend's
    RIGHT to know and she has a responsibility to tell him - not just
    because one should tell the truth but because if she has no idea where
    her ex has been her current boyfriend may want to take a trip to the
    doctor's. How would you feel if your SO DIDN'T tell you they slept
    with someone else who had been sleeping with others?
    
    Tell him, if he loves you and it's meant to be you'll work through it.
    
    
    

    RE.24
    
    Fredrick,  
    
    
    That was very well put, and I agree with you.  The only concern would
    be the Aids angle.  Something I hadn't concidered but .26 hinted at.
    If he is having affairs with other women, then it is a consideration in 
    your current relationship. IF you should pass Aids on to your current
    boyfriend... think of the hurt THAT will cause.  Still, you know your 
    ex better, and the potential/risk of his actions with more then one
    female.  
    
    Skip

    In response to .15:
    
    It was not any form of rape, however; I do believe my ex "planned" this 
    incident as a way to gain some control in my life since it was obvious
    that he felt threatened since he no longer had any.
    
    In response to .16-.19:
    
    I feel you are personally attacking me because of .15 reply.  I DID NOT
    seduce him.  I did not offer him wine.  He came with it.  I admit, I
    did not have to drink it or succumb to his advances but I was very
    confused at the time.  I made a mistake and ended it very abruptly and
    have since told him to get out of my life once and for all.  I
    certainly did not seduce him.  He came into my house.  I should not
    have allowed him in but I did and now I am dealing with the
    consequences of my mistake.  I don't believe your comments are just. 
    After all, you weren't there.....
    
    
    Excuse me .26 but I believe the only way to contract a STD is through
    intercourse.  I don't believe I said anything about actually having
    "intercourse".  There are other ways one can be unfaithful and feel
    guilt and shame without having to have "intercourse".  I am not
    THAT bad of a person.  If I thought for a moment that I could pass on 
    a "disease" I would tell........
    

        I mentioned AIDS in my original entry (.6, I believe.)  It 
    *is* an important consideration.  Assuming "safe sex," the issue 
    is somewhat moot.  But now it is up to this woman to determine
    whether or not her situation has been physically "compromised."
    I will also assume that she has been having sex regularly with
    her current lover since the incident.  Which also makes this question
    *almost* moot (no one knows how easy it is to get/give AIDS to
    someone else.)
        Yes, I would want to know if my lover had had sex with someone
    else.  But I would also like to believe that the relationship would
    be strong enough to forgive that action.  I have had a relationship
    like that in the past.  In that case (before AIDS, but not before
    syphilis or gonorrhea, herpes or crabs, etc.) she and I had been
    involved for about one month when a former boyfriend and her
    had sex (one time, according to her.)  She told me about the event
    several months later...it did not inflence our relationship that
    much.  This was a solitary event...not an indictment of current
    patterns, not a habituated circumstance.  As I said, if the
    relationship is so weak that he would not be able to forgive this,
    then it will probably show up later.  If, later, the relationship
    becomes stronger, she can probably admit this...but I still don't
    see that it is necessary...if the AIDS issue can be reconciled.
    
    Frederick
    

    in re .28
    
    It wasn't really clear until this note just how intimate you'd
    been with your ex. I think everyone assumed 'the worst' as it were.
    
    I still feel that he deliberately took advantage of you and that
    you have nothing to be ashamed of.
    
    Bonnie

    re: .28
    
>    Excuse me .26 but I believe the only way to contract a STD is through
>    intercourse.
    
    That's not an assumption I would bet my life, or anyone else's, on.
    For example, I would classify oral sex where one's mouth comes in
    contact with internal secretions or open sores as a high risk activity.
    As you haven't revealed what type of physical contact you did have
    with your ex-husband, it's not possible to even take a guess as to
    how much risk you have of having had contracted a STD from the
    incident.
    
    
    re: .24
    
>    Why is it that people feel that others need to know everything?
    
    The real question is whether she should tell her SO; whether her SO
    "needs" to know is only one factor to consider in making that decision.
    Another is the possibility that her SO will find out from someone else
    and how he will react vs. how he will react if she tells him of the
    event on her own.  Given the noter's concern about her ex-husband's
    actual intent, it doesnt seem reasonable for her to ignore the
    possibility her ex-husband will spill the beans himself if he is
    unsuccessful in his attempts to manipulate her into continuing the
    affair.
    
    re: .25
    
    Bonnie, I don't see how you can consider seduction and date rape to
    overlap.  With seduction there is consent; with rape there is not.

    re.16-19
    
    They were all after thoughts after I had already F10'd.  And I'm
    not a his, I'm a woman.  And, yes I guess this was a hot button.
    
    I just know that if my mate came up with this vulnerable stuff
    about a ex girlfriend it wouldn't work. 
    
    To base note: heck if you hadn't gone all the way and were able
    to stop in the heat of passion, I'd pat myself on the back and knock
    it up for experience.
    
    I wasn't attacking you personally in my replies, but definitely
    the scene as it relates to .15 and its implications.   
    
    And no, I wasn't there, nor would I make value judgements.  But, as a
    reader, one does make assumptions based on info. on hand, thereby
    making opinions.                               

    Jerry
    
    There is a very thin line between seduction and date rape, IMHO.
    
    Bonnie

    
    	Re .28 -
    
    	If you didnt actually have sexual intercourse, then why such a
    tremendous feeling of shame and guilt? I agree fully that it's
    inappropriate to be "making out" with somebody else when you're
    in a comitted relationship, however, I'm curious why your feelings
    about this mistake approach the "I cant live with myself" level?
    
    People make mistakes; that's part of being human. Guilt is the feeling
    by which we can guage that we've made a mistake, took a bad course of
    action, etc. I mean, if I bought something for $10 with a twenty and
    got change for a fifty, I'd feel guilty if I just walked off with it
    without saying anything. 
    
    People are not mistakes or inherantly bad; that's something we "learn
    how" in growing up. Toxic Shame is the feeling that "I am flawed" or
    "There's something wrong with me". I sense you feel a lot of shame over
    this incident. It's in statements like "I am not THAT bad of a person".
    (Then you must feel bad-ness as a person to some lesser degree...) 
    
    You can get rid of your guilt-feeling by telling your current boyfriend
    what happened, how you made a mistake and how it's not going to happen
    again - same way as one might go back to the store and explain how one
    recieved the wrong change. In both cases, I believe *respect* will come
    out of it. Self respect and that of others. 
    
    Your sense of shame will be validated if you dont do this. In other
    words, you'll be maintaining the evidence that "you're a bad person on
    some level", and prop up that belief in your own heart. That this
    feeling is there (if you agree) is tough enough to deal with; what you
    dont want to do is substantiate it, if you can at all help that.
    
    Shame, of the toxic kind is real cunning. It needs to be felt every
    once in a while and can cause people to make some real bad choices
    for themselves. You end up doing something that "I don' know what
    happened...I-I just" - but the catch everytime is that you end up
    feeling a very deep wound, feeling flawed as a person with the evidence
    going "see...SEE!" so that feeling is *justified*.
    
    The trouble is, that these things often take place at a subconscious
    level, hence the "I don' know...I was just" astonishment when you
    come to realize what really just happened! This whole thing may
    not have anything to do with your ex's wine, or your current
    boyfriend's shaky trust, or your ability to be faithful to someone.
    The thing that won is how you're feeling about yourself and *it*
    was what took advantage of the situation, basically for it's own
    survival. (Emotions left unexpressed work autonomously.)
    
    I see you as hurting and I see that it's not your fault. You may
    want to explore this; your feeling of being "bad" as a person and
    work it out of you. I see this being highly connected to the desperation
    you've expressed over losing your current boyfriend. Where would you
    be without him, right? (Hope this _helps_ you.)
    
    	Joe

    re: .34 (Joe)
    
         I agree with much of what you write, however I'd like to
    point out another alternative...one in which I believe.
         Before I talk about it, let me ask a question or two.
    What if a person has all these feelings you mention but the
    person that they "must confess to" is dead or gone somehow?
    Then what?  Does the person get to be saddled with guilt and
    shame forever?  You see, this is the problem that lies with
    so-called solutions to guilt and shame.  It is NOT always
    wise or prudent or even available to "unload" shame this way.
         This is why I am mentioning this alternative:  it is 
    entirely possible to reconcile this/any situation meditatively.
    It may take many attempts.  But it can be done.  As you 
    indicated, it may be un-conscious (or sub-conscious, more
    likely,) and how do we deal with the sub-conscious mind effectively?
    There are many ways, but dealing with it meditatively is certainly
    a fantastic option, one that I have used, one that I have
    seen others use, to get to that same end without the stigma
    or difficulty that many other situations would entail.  
         Forgiveness, SELF-forgiveness, is the single most important
    issue here.  We cannot always undo what we've done, but if there
    is true remorse, self-forgiveness is imperative in order to 
    be able to "get on with life."  Meditatively doing this process
    can be a very viable way out.  I will not at this point go
    into this with more depth.  Again, "fessing up" to this guy in
    her life is not the real issue.  If *she* lets it go, it's gone!
    It will no longer even be an issue.  No sense in airing out 
    dirty laundry at that point.  
    
    Frederick
    

    
    re: .35 (Frederick)
    
    	Actually, I dont know of any other way than "meditative", though
    I'd purport that a *guided* meditation would be best - to deal with
    core toxic shame that comes from childhood. If someone is dead or
    gone, these feelings can be worked out toward an imagined figure.
    I believe that it's best to have someone well versed in this present
    and available when undertaking such a powerful healing exercise.
    	
    	My earlier suggestion was based on that this probably had nothing
    to do with the current boyfriend (was not done to spite or hurt
    him) and probably was not a consciously well thought out and planned
    action on either the ex or the woman noting anonymously. It was
    all based on that it simply "sounds like" she is in some kind of 
    emotional pain that sources itself more deeply than her current affairs.
    
    	I'd expect that if her boyfriend could understand this and
    she admitted she simply made a mistake, a wrong choice and was sorry,
    - there'd be little chance that he'd actually break with her up over it.
    (Especially if that was accompanied with "I realize something about 
    myself and want to change it, I'm willing to work at it no matter what".
    I mean, *I* wouldnt in that case.)
    
    	On the other hand, without any admission or subsequent attention,
    this stuff would probably come out again, making itself manefest
    in some other situation at some other time. It gets cyclic in it's
    nature - "you do something" that lends this feeling of self-loathing
    the opportunity to be felt again and again. Then it gets more 
    primitive the longer you deny it, try to control it, ignore it and
    wish it'll go away. It loves alcohol - you "do something" under
    the influence you later wish you hadnt and consequently feel "ashamed 
    of yourself" over it.
    
    	Trully, the only way out is through, getting to what the original
    shame ("I'm this bad person [to some degree]") is all about and letting
    the emotions out that surround that core belief. This is just one theory
    and may not apply to the basenoter at all. As I said I'm cueing
    it all from a few statements I've read and may be totally wrong 
    here. If I'm on the mark, perhaps these insights could help her.
    
    	Joe

>    Jerry
>    
>    There is a very thin line between seduction and date rape, IMHO.
>    
>    Bonnie


That's taking the easy way out.

One could say there's even a very thin line between Digital and IBM.

    Dwight
    
    A lot of what some men may think was only seduction, may be percieved
    as excessive pressure, to a woman, to the point where she does not
    feal she can resist. The situation is often viewed very differently
    depending on the sex of the individual involved.
    
    I only suggested that .0 may have had emotional pressure put on her,
    to the point that what happened was not truely consentual, and thus
    came close to being 'date rape'.
    
    Bonnie

    re: .38 (Bonnie)
    
         That's interesting, Bonnie.  Why?  Because from *a*
    perspective that *I* have, seduction by a woman is ALMOST
    (or *could be almost*) the raping of a male.  In other words,
    the male is being seduced (manipulated, exploited, etc.) by
    a woman---since a woman does not have easy access to physical
    force and since a woman cannot necessarily force a man to 
    "perform," it could well be said that seduction *could* be
    construed as the female equivalent to male "forced sex."
         Understand that I'm not saying this is true...but I am
    saying that one could stretch things a bit and see some
    shades of gray here.  I simply don't believe that men are always
    the bad guys and women always the good "guys."  And since
    women don't rape, what do they do?
    
    Frederick
    

    Yes, women can rape men.  I think the focus of this discussion
    has been lost.
    
    I can personally relate to our base noter.  My boyfriend and I broke
    up because he "realized" he had feelings for someone else.  He was
    confused and wanted to understand why (blah, blah, blah...).  The point
    is he left me-this had never happened in my life, I had always broken
    up with the men I was dating for "whatever" reason.
    
    I was left questioning my self worth, was I less attractive?, a bitch?,
    no longer fun to be around?, what had changed in me that made someone 
    else more attractive?  I seduced my ex boyfriend, didn't go as far as
    rape-but I could have if I wanted to, and felt WONDERFUL afterwards.
    The simple seduction gained me incredible self esteem and sent me back
    on the road to being my former self.  
    
    I'm thankful that I had a fling with my ex, otherwise I'm not sure I
    would have regained that value that I had lost.  I was not involved
    with another person at the time---because I was incomplete. I hate to
    speculate "what if"...but, What if I were in a relationship?  I would
    have expressed my true feelings to my current beau, with the
    understanding that this is something I need to do for me...for my
    value.  
    
    I believe it's our basenoter's low self esteem that will not
    allow her to be in a relationship where she can share all her thoughts
    and feelings (even the secrets).  If your fella is that insecure,
    you're just feeding his insecurities and he WILL find out, because he
    will be looking for "evidence"- do you think he didn't notice the wine
    bottle in the trash?  Your ex will always be your ex, if the new beau
    has expressed concerns of your having feelings for your ex (on numerous 
    occasions)-get used to the feelings of guilt, because he will persist,
    for as long as you're together.
    
    I believe all relationships should be as open and honest as possible.
    Who do you think you're kidding by trying to keep secrets?  Find
    someone who you can share EVERYTHING with.  Perhaps time apart from
    your current beau, (time alone), will help you to become the person you
    want to be, not someone who has to keep secrets.  I'll be the first to
    admit this is very scary, but once you get into it, you may find you
    actually LIKE your time alone.
    
    Signed,
    
    Back_to_my_ole_self_and_lovin'_every_minute_of_it!!
    
                                                        
    
    

    RE .40
    
    You had to seduce your ex-boyfriend to find your own self worth?
    
    I'm sorry but something in that bugs the hell out of me.  Why is your 
    self worth based on if you can or can't seduce the guy who walked out
    on you?  It sounds like you're NOT very self assured of yourself.  I've
    always had the woman walk out on me in one form or another.  When it
    first happened I went into a deep depression and questioned my self
    worth, but as time passed, I realized that it wasn't my own self worth 
    that needed to be questioned.  I am who I am, I can't change that
    readily and have gotten to the point now where I wouldn't if I could
    because I like who I am.  I've developed my personality, desires, and 
    character traits to the point where they make me someone that I'm proud
    of.  IF someone has a problem with that, then it's not MY problem,
    there's nothing in me that's wrong, it's just something in me that
    doesn't connect with them.  That doesn't mean something is wrong with
    me nor with them, just that their's enough difference between us that
    we can't connect properly for whatever type of relationship I or they
    were trying for.  I've learned that basing my self esteem and self
    worth on what other's think of me is like trying to plug an electrical 
    cord into the printer port on the back of my terminal.  It don't work!
    
    Sorry, but that's how I perceive your note and comment.  It's a lot
    eaiser to beleive that sometimes things just don't work out then to
    believe that I've something wrong in me that doesn't work right.  
    Sense learning this, I've enjoyed my relationships a lot more, and 
    excepted any breakups or disappointments from/in them a lot easier.
    I'm not saying it doesn't hurt when someone I've come to care for
    leaves or says they don't want to see me any more.  Far from that, 
    I'm saying that looking for a problem within myself isn't the answer
    to the question "What went wrong?"  Don't think I don't make mistakes,
    I have, by the bucket fulls, but they are only mistakes, I find them, 
    study them and try to avoid them the next time.  THAT doens't make
    something wrong in me, that makes me human.
    
    SKip

     
    	re .40 -
    
    >The simple seduction gained me incredible self esteem and sent me back
    >on the road to being my former self.  
    
    	I cant believe that you'd make this statement in the context
    of comparing men's rape with a womans seduction...how far is this from
    some guy saying "The simple rape (of this woman) gained me incredible 
    self esteem and sent me back on the road to being my former self"
    
    	Whoa.
    
    	How is it that you're sense of self (esteem) can be so completely
    determined by another person - that they can take it wholly away
    from you, and you can then take it back and feel WONDERFUL about
    yourself by have them succomb...to your seduction? I'm sure glad that
    I dont derive so much of my own "value" based on whom I can "overcome"
    - in one way or another.
    
    	(I liked the rest of your note, BTW)
    
    	Joe

RE: .40

Well!  Goodie for you.  I bet YOU feel a *WHOLE* lot better getting
*that* off your chest.  You seem to know everything already but let me
just *try* to shed some light on the subject.  First of all, my *new*
(we've been living together for over a year) "beau" is not an insecure
person.  My self esteem is not as low as you may think.  My feelingd
of "guilt" and "shame" are only because I have betrayed another person
that loves me dearly and I am not in favor of hurting people unneccesarily.
Okay, so I've made a mistake but after having some time to think it through
I realize that what happened wasn't as bad as my initial reaction seemed
to think it was.  It's just that I am a VERY sensitive person and know how
it feels to betrayed.  What happened to me during my marriage as far as being
"cheated on" really hurt me inside and all I could think of after my "fling"
was putting someone else through those same feelings.  My reason for not
telling my SO was because I know deep down that I have NO feelings left
for my ex and have no ties with him, so why shouldn't I just move on and
realize that I am only human.  My SO isn't untrustworthy of me at all.  It's
just that he has seen me go through my divorce and has been with me for all
the pain and he had his doubts about whether or not I was truly "over" my
ex.  He thought I may still have some questions.  I feel that if I were to
tell hiom about what happened, he may feel that his thoughts of me not
being over him were correct.  Now that this has happened, it's really helped
me put things into perspective.  I could care less about my ex and am
focusing all my energies into my current relationships.  I am ready to
move on so why should I mention it.  I have expressed these feelings to
my ex and we have both agreed to "forget about it" and move on.  I won't
say anything to anyone in the future and neither will he.  END OF STORY

    To the base noter,
    
    GOOD FOR YOU!  (And that isn't meant as a sarcastic remark!)  I'm glad
    to see you've gotten a grip on the situation and come to a dicision on 
    how to handle it.  I wish you nothing but the best in your current
    relationship.
    
    SKip

    re.40
    >>The point
        is he left me-this had never happened in my life, I had always
    broken<
    
    SO being the dumped party instead of the dumper made you feel a need to
    seduce him. I find this very sad did you take pride in never having
    been dumped before this happened? Did you promptly dump him after you
    were done with him?
    
    -j

    
    Whoops!  I didn't mean to make this "my" topic of discussion, I merely
    tried to draw parallels.  I'll try to be brief...
    
    RE .40
    > I am who I am, I can't change that readily and have gotten to the
    > point now where I wouldn't if I could because I like who I am.
    
    I didn't like who I was.  During my 4 year relationship, I deteriorated
    and lost a lot of values that I had once cherished previously.  I was
    in a depressed state (I became dependent, isolated (reclusive), gained
    weight, took abuse at work, etc...) At the time I didn't realize I was
    depressed, now I know I was because I'm almost back to the person I
    like.
    
    My self worth was based on the fact that I did still have value in my
    ex's life.  I was able to seduce (read: to attract) my ex.  Instead of
    ending our relationship on a sour note we were able to openly discuss
    our feelings of what changed in us to make our love go away.  My ex is
    still attracted to me- I needed to know that.  I didn't dare believe
    that love is a faucet you can simply turn off and on.  By my "seducing"
    my ex. I was able to bring closure to our relationship and continue
    on with my life.  
    
    I relate this to our base noter because as you can see, she had the
    same "healing" effect. She states .42 " I realize even more so since this
    incident happened just how much he (new beau) means to me."  She was
    able to bring closure to her relationship with her ex that she hadn't
    been able to do previously.  Now she can go on with her new life with
    her new beau, self assured.
    
    RE 42:
    I didn't compare men's rape with women's seduction-you did.  I simply
    stated that women can rape men to end the downslide of this
    conversation and get back to what I thought were the key issues.
    
    > how can your self esteem be so completely determined by another
    person-that they can take it wholly away from you...
    
    He did take it wholly away from me-that's the point!  Granted I had
    very low self esteem to begin with-this was simply the icing on the
    cake.  If your best friend walked up to you and said "I don't want
    to play with you any more" and walked off wouldn't you start questioning
    every action you made whether it was good or bad trying to figure out
    for yourself why they don't want to play with you?  Wouldn't you want
    to talk to them to find out why?  Wouldn't you avoid making new friends
    until you figured out why your best friend left you?    
    
    I needed to know what the particular reasons were for his sudden shift in 
    values.  I needed to know that I did still "attract" him, because he 
    attracted me.  I did not "overcome" him, my seduction wasn't physical at 
    all.  I simply brought him back into my life to end our relationship on
    a postive note, we both learned an incredible amount about ourselves
    and will be able to use this knowledge in future relationships.
    
    
    RE: 43
    
    I don't appreciate being spoken/written to in that tone of voice.  If
    I'm trying to draw a parallel or reading something into your words
    which is incorrect I would appreciate it if you simply elaborated 
    (as you did) in your note.  I was trying to help :o(, now I really
    don't want to have anything to do with you.
      
    
    I'm taking my toys and going home...
    
    

    Your previous note made it sound like you had regained your self esteem 
    from the experience of seduction... end of story.  Now you've revealed 
    that you further learned NOT to let your self esteem be controled by
    how you are perceived by others, you used "seduction" (I'm not sure I'd
    have used that term because of the implications it leaves) to question
    the relationship and learn from it.  That's a lot different from what 
    your previous reply left as an impression of the type of person you are 
    at this point in your life.  To be honest it left me with the belief
    that you were someone very shallow and had a LOT to learn about
    yourself in general and life imparticular.
    
    I'm glad to find out that isn't the case.
    
    Skip