Conference quark::human_relations-v1

    
    	The likely outcome is that Patty is going to go ahead
    	and have that affair. It seems that Patty doesn't really
    	know for sure what she wants out of life, and I feel that
    	she misled Herb by becoming romantically involved with 
    	him just to see what would happen. Sounds like she was 
    	just bored and looking for entertainment. I hope Patty can
    	learn to repsect herself enough so that others will return
    	repsect to her, and she to them.
    
    	

    Looks to me like Herb was lead on.  Now Patty has to decide where to 
    go from here.  Dave may or may not be interesting enough to have an 
    affair with.  But the loser in this scenirio is going to be Herb.
    
    If his physical looks had been important she should have stated this
    early on in the relationship.  Apparently they weren't important at 
    the time she decided to play at a romantic relationship with him.
    
    Patty should look closely at her feelings about Dave and see if they 
    are just a desire to flirt with something new or if they are real
    enough to venture exploring.  
    
    I feal sorry for Herb being caught in the middle but utlimatly Patty 
    needs to make a decision as to where she goes from here.
    
    Skip

   It sounds as if the writer was trying to spread the sin equally!

   I don't think pointing fingers at anyone would be useful here.  There
   isn't enough in the story to draw any real conclusions.

   But I do love to speculate, so here are my speculations.

   Herb and Patty share the blame/credit equally for their relationship. 
   Sure, Patty was dishonest with herself and with Herb for starting and
   continuing a relationship she didn't really want.  But what was Herb's
   role?

   Even if Herb had not inkling of Patty's real feelings, the relationship
   would have ended sooner or later, OR, even worse, it would have continued
   with both of them hating each other but not knowing how to end it or why.

   Dave adds an interesting twist.  What does Dave really think of himself
   (and Patty) if he's willing to become romantically involved with a woman
   who is already involved?

   It takes a whole person to bring themselves to their half of a
   relationship.  None of Herb, Patty, or Dave, are behaving as whole people
   at this stage in their lives.


   							Terza

    Okay, say that Patty turns down Dave, then goes home and
    resents plain, average-looking Herb. Apparently, there's still 
    a problem.
    
    Patty shouldn't have gotten into anything with Herb unless he appealed
    to her physically enough so that she wouldn't feel bad passing up a guy
    like Dave.  
    
    Right? Or...what do you think?
       

    
      If Patty drives up to N. H. to pay a visit to Pam Smart!!!!!!
      
      LOOK OUT HERB!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    I believe Patty is at fault for settling for less when she knew
    she wanted more out of a man.
    
    She and Dave will probaly bump uglies and eventually she'll break
    up with Herb.  Either because she wants to be with Dave or she
    get a clue on life in general.
    
    Dave, however, will be monumentally stupid if he decideds to 
    get into a serious relationship with Patty after this.  If she
    cheated on one man for another she'll more than likely do it again.
    
    Herb, well, not really much to say about the dude in the middle.
    Hopefully next time he either sets his standards lower or realizes
    early on that a feeling isn't always mutual just because one party
    feels a certain way.
    
    
                                   L.J.

    Patty should not use someone to marry just to be married and not be
    by herself. What is comes down too, is she is using Herb because at the
    time he was there when she did not have another interest.  If Herb has
    strong feelings for her, HE will be the one who is going to get hurt
    severely.  I advise for Patty to tell Herb up front instead of going on
    with an affair with the other man, since she is not MARRIED she has
    nothing to loose,  instead of going through with a wedding and being
    unhappy.  Lets put it this way.......she won't have to pay for the
    lawyer fees ;->.
    
    
    Lynne

    Perhaps Patty could date both men?
    
    

    
    Well, you could look at this several ways.  You *could* blame it on
    society....making women feel like they are less of a _real_ woman 
    if they are not in a significant love/marriage relationship....OR
    you could lie it on Patty's biological clock...the writer doesnt 
    tell us if she is going to marry Herb, or if they were perhaps planning
    to have kids, or how old these people are is Patty around 30ish?  Is 
    she afraid of commitments?  Was she abused as a child?  Did her parents
    have afairs (if so how old were they when this happened)??
      
    
    Its kinda hard to tell without more info...
    
    If I had to make a call on this one I would say.....Patty should get a
    grip.  She should learn to trust her instincts.  If she knew that Herb
    was just someone to be going out with at the time she shouldnt have
    moved in with him.  She should leartn to be honest with herself first 
    and then she could be honest with other people.  If she wants to have
    this affair with Dave she should just be honest with Herb(it will hurt
    him but in the long run its probably the best thing.  I doubt that Herb
    would want to walk in on them in his bed catching a nooner or
    something.  Life has a funny way of  working out for the best.  Maybe
    there is someone out there waiting for the opratunity to date Herb???
    
    shannon  
    
    
    

    
    First of all Patty's going to end up loosing out with both Herb and
    Dave.
    
    The fault in all honesty is both Patty's and Dave's.  Patty should have
    admitted honestly to Herb from the start that she is really only
    testing the waters to see what could lay ahead and should have never
    made a committment such as she did with Herb if her true feelings
    weren't as Herbs were.  Dave on the other hand should be put out of
    all women's misery's if he is wanting an affair with someone who is
    already committed to someone else.  In this respect, I think Dave is
    going to have his fun and Patty is going to be a woman of his past
    shortly after his affair with her when he finds another to have an
    affair with him again.
    
    Patty got involved with Herb for all the wrong reasons - security is
    now reason to make a committment to another person as far as living
    together or marriage.  If your not happy in your life - how do you
    expect to make another happy and Herb is really going to get hurt.
    Is it worth all that?
    
    -Lynn
    

    
    On another note "a pretty face doesn't always turn my head".....there
    are alot of attractive people out there - but it's the personality that
    makes the person - I dated a very attractive man for awhile and he
    turned out to be a jerk and only after one thing.....believe me -
    it's not worth it.
    

    
>    1. The likely outcome of this scenario (based on your experience
>       and studies you've read about women having affairs). 
 
	I've learned never to guess or assume how any human scenario
	will turn out.  

	Why the emphasis on *women having affairs*. She was dating
	one man/living with him, and met someone else and found
	she was attracted to him. Happens all the time. We are all
	human.
 
>    2. Who was at fault here, if anyone, depending on the outcomes? 
>       (For example, should Herb have worked on being more physically
>       attractive to Patty, OR "either you have it, or you don't")
 
	No one is at fault (IMHO)
   
>    3. Did Patty like (or even love) Herb for the right reasons?

	Who can really say. She probably did what she felt was
	right for her. As did Herb. 
   
>    4. What went wrong in your scenario, and why? 
 
	I don't feel anything went wrong. If the relationship
	between Patty and Herb was meant to be.....nothing
	would have come between them.  Evidently the relationship
	was missing something. Life is like that.
   
>    5. General thoughts.
 
	If at first you don't succeed....try try again.

	     

    I'd like to point out that nowhere does it mention that Dave came on 
    to Patty... It simply said Dave liked her.  I like a lot of women too.
    Doesn't mean I want to jepordize my relationship with my girlfriend 
    and go out with them.  Further, I saw nothing wrong in letting a girl 
    know I was interested in her before I was invovled in my relationship.
    Regardless of the relationship she was in (barring marriage that is).
    I did not however persue a girl if she WAS invovled with someone.  I 
    just quietly let her know I was interested sometimes the relationship
    doesn't work out for them.  
    
    SKip

    
    
    Why does everyone assume Patty went ahead and had the affair?
    
    
    I don't think she would have.   They both made the relationship work
    for at least three years.  There must be something there which is
    benifitting both of them to make them stay together that long.
    Her initial intentions of just dating him to see what it was like
    may have been good and well, but why has she decided to stay with
    him for this long?  
    
    And what about Herb's role in all of this.  Doesn't he count?  Surely
    if she were unhappy about the relationship he would know about it.
    
    
    I don't think she has the affair.  I think she tells Dave that he is
    a scum for even suggesting she break her commitment to Herb.  
    
    

re.6.
	Insecurity is everywhere... Patty is not being fair/honest to herself.
If she is settling for less..  I agree with .6.

re.8.	But I like .8 answer.  Why can't see date them both?

re.10  Now how do you know that?  she may end up with one of them or both
       and be very happy..

general feelings: This crap/stuff happens alot because we are not honest,
or because we are afraid of being 'alone' and lonely.  Patty has to become
a stronger person and look inward for any real happiness to come of this..

sad, for the guy that really cares thou.

Mikki

    

   Why not just think about what a relationship with Dave would be like.
 Fantasy will certainly not hurt Herb and may help Patty to experience in
 her mind what a relationship with Dave could be like. The Fantasy should
 be as thorough as possible and include all aspects of a relationship not
 just the passionate encounters. Patty should think about how Dave will
 be when the passion subsides. She should think about how Dave would be to
 live with and wake up to day after day. She should think about how he might
 treat her when their relationship comes under pressure. What would it be
 like to have an argument with Dave. She should try to be realistic in her
 fantasy. Then when Patty talks to Dave, talk about life in general what he
 likes and doesn't like. Patty then can look at Dave in a different light
 and maybe see him the way he is and compare it to her fantasy. If she still
 likes what she sees and is not disapointed with the real Dave then maybe its
 time to tell Herb its over between them. If not then maybe its time to spend
 more time in nurturing her relationship with Herb and stop looking for greener
 pastures.

  This fantasy methodology is presented by Doctor Joyce Brothers in her book
  What Every Woman Should Know About Love and Marriage.


 Hope This Helps!

   Neil....

    
    
    	How come Patty is so sure of how Herb feels ?
    
    
    
    
    	Herb  :-}

    I like Dr. Joyce Brothers. Unlike a lot of unfeeling quacks who peddle
    their wares in newspapers and radio, she (in my opinion, anyway) always
    gives sensible, empathetic, and realistic advice. 
    
    There's some good commentary here, but aside from Patty's foibles, 
    to what extent is Herb obligated to compete with the "Daves" that Patty
    will run in to? And what should Patty realistically expect from a
    partner? Surely that he appeal to her physically? I'd like to hear from
    some of the women on this. 
    

    re: .12
    
    Ditto kits.
    
    Lynne
    

No single person can ever meet all of another person's needs
all of the time.  However, everyone's needs and wants are
different in terms of what they need and the degree to which
they expect those needs to be met in relationship.  

However, I think that the only way that a relationship has the 
slightest chance of success is if both partners accept and love
the other *as they are* with no expectation of change.  Obviously,
this was not the case in this scenario.  Patty didn't accept Herb 
for what he is since she is looking for her needs to be met by Dave.
She hasn't been honest with Herb or herself about this.  When she
implied a commitment to Herb by moving in with him I think she
obligated herself to try to live up to that commitment.  If she changes
her mind and decides that the commitment is wrong for her she should
talk to Herb about it *before* she takes any action.

FWIW - 

Nanci  

Everything that we do in life involves making compromises.  Patty made a
compromise when she decided to persue a romantic relationship with Herb, even
though he didn't match her ideal.  When you make a compromise you often see
something later that, at first glance, appears to be a better choice than your
previous choice.  In the end it may or may not be a better choice.  Society has
changed so that people are more willing/able to change when they discover
something that appears to be better than their earlier choice.

Well, that's why Patty will probably have the affair with Dave.  In the end they
all lose though.


Rich

    
    Can you say deja vue?  
    
    Among the comments I have are these:
    
    PAtty may not have realized that "half a loaf is better than none" only
    works for a little while.
    
    I doubt that Herb could realize the lack of intensity in Patty.  One
    tends to see (and believe) what the other says, especially when one
    feels strongly about the other.
    
    Dave is a schmuck.  But then even a schmuck has a place in the world.
    
    Patty may have believed that, given time, she would grow to love Herb
    more (it rarely happens that way).
    
    Where will it go?  Eventually, Patty will be overwhelmed by her unmet
    needs or Herb will be underwhelmed by her lack of desire for him. 
    Either way, they both lose.  The pain will be greater for Herb because
    the depth of Herbs emotion is apparently greater.  
    
    Don't ask me how this applies to my own life, I ain't finished sortin'
    it all out.
    
    jimc

    See 1074.34.  What a sorry state we are in these days!  I ain't a bit
    interested in writing out the rest of the story.  After all it is
    all hypothetical right (Yea, right)?  But look at the "stories" people
    write.  All casual matter of fact analysis like shopping in K-marts--
    this relationship is worth this much, and nothing else (perhaps that
    is indeed the worth of "relationships"); she is selling herself short, 
    and it is all society's fault.  
    
    Ain't nothing sacred these days?  Whatever happens to laying one's life
    down and dropping everything to join the other?  I can only wonder what 
    would happen to Romeo and Juliet today?  Uh-oh, they had a disease 
    called "co-dependency" and should be thrown into a loonie bin or 
    worse being forced to listen to the babble of that Bradshaw guy or 
    other psycho quacks who should probably just start retail stores called 
    "rent a relationship" or something like that if they are honest with 
    themselves.  And worst of all, we are all buying it and their
    businesses are booming.
    
    Eugene

    
    
    
    Moving on from one relationship to another is not a BAD thing and
    should not be portrayed as such.
    
    When Dave was not in Patty's life, Herb was someone that she chose to
    spend her time with.  She knew how she felt about him, and kept that in
    perspective.  It's unclear if she expressed this perspective to Herb.
    
    When Dave entered Patty's life, she felt new yearnings.  There is
    nothing wrong with that.  One should not have to stick to a
    relationship out of obligation and be unhappy because it's the "right"
    thing to do.
    
    People should be free to choose their path in life. They should be free
    to "change their mind" and they should also be free to takes risks and
    lose.  As long as Patty is honest with everyone involved, there is
    nothing "wrong" or "bad" with anything.
    
    Yes, it hurts and is hard when relationships end, but I don't feel it
    is a BAD thing..........................................society has
    labelled it so, and I feel that is VERY wrong.
    
    kath

    re: .24
    
>    Yes, it hurts and is hard when relationships end, but I don't feel it
>    is a BAD thing
    
    I agree - as long as the first relationship is terminated before the
    second is initiated.  And I don't consider initiation of the second to
    be de facto termination of the first.

End of story: Patty, who was kinda shallow to start with, succumbs
to Dave's charm. The first night this happens, she arrives home
late, satiated and totally uninterested in Herb. An argument
develops, at the end of which Herb invites Patty to pack up and
vacate the premises. Patty, sure of a safe haven with Dave, does so
the very next morning. 

After reconsidering, Herb is devastated. He even considers resorting
to an old trick taught to him by his father many years before
(namely, beg the woman to return - if necessary, on his hands and
knees). However, he happens to strike an acquaintance with the office
new Mechanical Engineer Linda, which considerably brightens his
outlook of life, not to mention, makes Patty's loss close to
endurable. 

Meanwhile at the farm, Dave has had all he wants of Patty and takes
up with the boss's daughter, Sylvia. Patty, realizing she has traded
a safe, if uninspired, lover for a very brief, but enjoyable,
glimpse of glory, migrates to Australia to start a new life and
winds up getting married to an older kangaroo rancher named Pops -
but that's another story. 

Linda moves in with Herb, where they discover that they are
temperamentally, socially and sexually compatible. A year later she
becomes pregnant (a not unheard of result of sexual compatibility)
at which point they decide to get married.

It finally dawns on Herb that Patty's loss was not the end of the 
world, but --rather-- the beginning of the rest of his life. I hope 
he will read this entry, so as to learn this truth sooner.

-- Ron

    I find it very interesting the projections from individual people's
    lives that have colored the reactions to this scenerio.
    
    I  still find myself wondering what would have happend if the
    woman asked the first man how he felt about either or  both
    of them dating other people.
    
    Does every  relationship imply total monogamy? Can people
    date more than one person at a time? 
    
    These people weren't married.
    
    Bonnie

    re:  .8  I agree with this one! If she's not married (although she must
    feel "something" for the comfortable Herb) then maybe she should date this
    other guy, or maybe just play things alittle slower on all fronts.
    Relationships can be a "crap shoot" sometimes you win, sometimes you
    lose and since she isn't married...  maybe she should do something to
    find herself. If dating Dave, Harry, or Poindexter she finds
    what she "really" wants then it'd be worth it. If she decides that Herb
    *is* the one for her after this search then it's worth it. If not...
    then it's better she finds out NOW! It get VERY sticky after you get
    married and it doesn't sound like she really knows what she wants.
    I question the intentions of this new guy...   just a "one shot deal"
    and can she handle that? Maybe...  maybe not? Hey look, some guys
    (and gals) are looking for that extra notch on the gun handle. So where
    is this guy coming from? 
                        

    Re: .27
    
    Bonnie, you appear to have overlooked the point about Patty and Herb
    living together.  Or do you consider this a situation where each of
    them is free to date others?  It would imply, to me anyway, a
    monogamous commitment.
    
    				Steve

    Doesn't anyone have feelings for Patty? It's not easy to "be" with
    a person with whom the proverbial sparks do not fly. I mean she pro-
    bably tried to fake it but Herb must have been able to tell. It's
    not easy to fake these things. Nne of us can really help who we can
    respond to sexually. I think our bodies have a mind of their own. 
    
    Could you see spending the rest of your life sexually frustrated? Gawd,
    that'd wear anybody down. I say she should definately leave Herb. She
    should probably not jump into another permenant relationship to avoid
    that dreadful rebound syndrome.
    
    Kate
    

    Steve,
    
    You are right, I wasn't thinking about them living together.
    
    I guess, tho, that I still look at living together as being less
    of a committment than marriage.
    
    Bonnie

    RE Doesn't anyone feel sorry for Patty?
    
    Only because she's a child who decided that life was better with
    someone, anyone instead of waiting to find the right person from the 
    start.  Bio clocks are an excuse for copping out and deciding to
    settle.  A big mistake in any relationship.  It is apparent that she 
    is incapable of thinking her decisions through on her own.  Like
    "If I decide to accept Herb what will happen when I meet someone I 
    am REALLY interested in."  She is STILL unable to make up her own 
    mind and is busy seeking guidance from others.
    
    Feel sorry for her?  No the only person I feel sorry for in this is 
    Herb... his only mistake was in falling for a girl who apparently
    couldn't tell the truth.
    
    Breaking it off with him is the smart thing to do but it isn't going 
    to feel all the wonderful to him.  The words "I Love You" are not 
    meant to be thrown about like candy from a float in a parade.  To me
    when I woman says them I take them to mean just that. Not I feel safe 
    with you or I want to stay with you and see if I can grow to love you.
    
    No I DON'T feel sorry for her at all.
    
    Skip

    
    
    It may help some people if they begin to look at the distinctions
    among several different words.
    
    The words:
    
          --sympathy
    
          --empathy
    
          --pity
    
          --compassion
    
    (Hint: Empathy and compassion are "helpful"...the other two are
    not)
    
    
    Frederick
    

 Re .30 I didn't get the impression that Patty was unhappy sexually with Herb.
 If that was the case then she and Herb should work out that problem together.
 If the thrill was gone before she met Dave then that is one situation. However
 If she does not have any desire to be with Herb because someone else has caught
 her eye then she owes it to Herb to let him know and not to keep him hanging
 on until she establishes a romantic relationship with another. People are not
 like shoes where the old pair gets tossed in the closet when a new pair are
 purchased only to be taken out and worn if the new pair become uncomfortable.

 Neil....

	I don't know if my experience is relative, but here it is:
	(Invoice to follow.)
	
	Awhile back,  I dated someone ,who I will call Dawn (because that
	was not her name).  We went together for 8 - 10 months and I 
	grew to like her a lot.  She,  on the other hand,  never fell
	head-over-flats in love with me.  I found this kinda 
	frustrating.
		Like "Patty",  she was perhaps unsure just what she 
	was looking for but she differed from "Patty" in being very
	honest about it.  She let me know that inspite of the good
	times together she wasn't in love.  Then she dumped me.
	I felt bad.  But,  somewhat to my surprise,  I wasn't crushed.
	It hurt a lot less than I expected and it "dawned" on me that
	(see why I chose the name?) she had done me a kindness by being
	honest.  Her honesty prevented me from fooling myself while we
	were still together and made the break up much less painfull.
		I can't speak for anyone else,  but I prefer this type
	of honesty.  I still like "Dawn" and have a little extra 
	respect for her.

	J	

    Having been both Herb and Dave ...

    The cliche honesty is the best policy applies.  Dating both would be
    cruel to Herb.

    The best thing Patty could do is take a short amount of time to decide
    which she wants to do.  Then do it without looking back.  The worse
    things that can happen is for the "limbo" to be dragged out.

    - Dave

    P.S. In both cases, Patty went with Dave.

My take on the "likely outcome" of this situation is that one of the
following will happen (in order of probability):

	0. Patty tells Dave summarily that she doesn't date coworkers.
	   (this does not preclude any of the following other scenarios).

	1. Patty communicates her unavailability to Dave, but stays friendly
	   with him, then breaks up with Herb and moves out, after which
           point she may or may not start seeing Dave.

	2. Patty finds out Dave is married and starts trying to ignore him.

	3. Patty concludes that Dave is a good example of the "attractive but
	   smarmy" type she "always falls for", decides she'll never find a
	   guy that she's attracted to as much as she is to Dave, but who's 
	   also nice and treats her well, and stays with and/or marries Herb.

Who was at fault?  In scenario 1, nobody.  In scenario 2, Dave.  In scenario 3,
it's too early to tell, but Patty stands a good chance of deciding later that
she made a mistake.  (I've heard another answer to this too, which is that
Herb is at fault in all three for not marrying Patty in addition to moving in 
with her).

Did Patty like/love Herb for the right reasons?  Well, from this scenario, it's
impossible to tell, because after Patty decided to date Herb romantically,
nothing is said about Patty's feelings towards Herb, and although we know that 
at that time she considered him a "nice guy" of the "hard to find" variety,
it's not stated *why* she drew that conclusion.

What went wrong in these scenarios?  In the first, nothing.  In the second,
Dave's marriage.

General thoughts: I sense that I'm supposed to assign blame to Patty here, and
I can't do it.  She gave Herb a chance initially even though she knew that
he was more attracted to her than vice versa, and at the point where Dave
enters the story, that's ancient history anyway.  What is the point of this
story anyway?  (Why did you leave out all the juicy details of the movie?)

    Sharon

    
    
    skip,
    
    when someone says "I love you" and later says "I don't love you
    anymore" it doesn't mean that they lied when they said "I love you".
    
    If someone says "I'll love you till the day I die" and then they say "I
    don't love you anymore", it doesn't mean they lied, it (probably) means
    that they were naiive enough to believe it when they said it. 
    
    People should not be condemed for their change of feelings as if they
    did it on purpose. That's the nature of 'people'. Most of the time, a
    change of feelings is QUITE inconvenient, and very often painful.
    
    
    
        
    
    You accuse this woman of being deceitful. I don't think that
    you have sufficient facts to be so hard on her.   
    

re: .6
>    If she cheated on one man for another she'll more than likely do it again.

Human_relations_Urban_legend # 1?

re: .10

>    Dave is going to have his fun and Patty is going to be a woman of his past
>    shortly after his affair with her when he finds another to have an affair
>    with him again.
    
Human_relations_Urban_legend # 2?

-Jack

    Patty had needs that were at the time fulfilled by Herb.  Maybe she
    even loved Herb but not the "in love" way.  There was probably even a
    little pressure from Herb that may have influenced Patty's decisison. 
    I would guess that Herb sensed Patty's less than enthusiasticed
    involvement, but settled for her that way anyway.  Patty short changed
    herself.  There was always that chance of her meeting someone more
    enticing.  Herb was second best.  You can't knock Patty for being
    attracted to Dave.  We all are attracted to persons for different
    reasons.  
    
    Patty would never have that "passion" for Herb, but would have been
    contented with him.  I strongly feel that when you make a committment
    to someone or something, you stick by it.  Patty hadn't gone quite that far
    with Herb.  Herb took a chance with Patty and vice versa.  
    
    When a person decides on whom to marry, you have to figure what's the
    bottom line.  What are your needs in the long run of a committed
    relationship.  Are you willing to jeopordize a strong relationship for
    a taste at fantasy.  It will change the rest of your life and the
    relationship at hand.
    
    This business about what's good now is somewhat full of misconception. 
    Forever is a strong word and perhaps misguided, but love in a committed
    relationship needs to be built on that idea in order for someone to feel
    open enough to let loose.  Children need un-conditional love forever
    from their parents.  I feel that to some degree that same kind of love
    is needed in a committed relationship.
                            

    It's interesting how everyone basically seems to be debating "who is
    the looser in this?"
    
    Now I'm far from idealistic, but I'd say everyone wins.  Patty learns a
    little about herself and her needs, about sweet men and cads, about
    stereotypes and real people.  Is this a bad thing?  I don't think so.  
    Herb learns a little about his desires for attractiveness and about
    opening himself up too soon to someone he obviously doesn't know very 
    well.  Is this a bad thing?  Not at all.  His hypothetical relationship
    with Linda can credit some of its success to Herb's new maturity and
    understanding of real people versus idealized love objects.   
    
    And Dave, well, Dave gets some hot times as does Patty, the *second* 
    good thing that happens to her.
    
    Life isn't static.  And pillow talk, ("I'll love you forever"), isn't
    generally supposed to be taken literally.  I don't think Patty was
    deceitful, just alive.  And further in her defense, keep in mind that
    women are raised to sublimate sexual desire and transform it into
    desire for marriage and kids.  Patty may have in reality been a damn
    good little girl and learned her lessons well.  Eventually, the human
    being in most women surfaces.  She may, for while, go as overboard with 
    the Daves as she did with Herb but that's what youth is for - learning.
    
    Like most people, Patty, Herb and Dave will try on a few personalities
    and eventually settle on the right balance for them.  They are living
    people and if they aren't "changing partners", (before deciding on a
    marriage partner), they aren't really growing.  Herb and Patty were
    both simply naive, Dave, simply opportunistic.  Neither state is
    a crime.  A shame sometimes, maybe, but not a crime.  They'll all find
    the respective levels they seek.
    
    Sandy Ciccolini

    RE .38
    
    No but in her situation she admits to having deceived the man....
    
    I admit people fall in and fall out of love.  But they shouldn't 
    say "I Love You" when they admit to themselves that they don't.
    
    They shouldn't "settle" as she put it, for someone.
    
    SKip

Patty should take an honest look.

Has she had a history of relationships in which she loses interest after
the pursuit part is over, and the real "getting intimate" part really
begins ?

Does she repeatedly lose interest, or start feeling distracted by other men
that seem "more exciting" ?

If so, please send me mail, the next part of this is a bit personal...

/Eric

    
    	Patty, realizing that Dave was the proverbial "feather in the
    wind" which she *could* chase, decided to keep the quite solid 
    (knowing that she was "more than enough") thing she had with Herb.
    She thought to herself, "Not *everyone* needs to roll the dice just
    one more time..."
    
    	She conveyed to Dave that she was "taken" and having gotten
    the relationship_possibility_sh*t out of the way, they became the
    best of friends. They often confided in each other and were there
    for each other emotionally, which offloaded some of the stress that
    would have otherwise necessarily been taken on in her relationship 
    with Herb. Dave also saw the same benefits in a new and budding 
    relationship with "Jill".
    
    	Herb was quite taken with Patty's choice of action and was all
    the more happy with her! He knew the love he had shown Patty was
    coming back; his risk and emotional investment in her was the "right
    choice" for him. (Actually, from what he'd seen over the three years
    he knew of her, he had known it would be) Herb felt quite confident
    now in investing even more of himself in a relationship with Patty
    and began to think about "going for the ultimate" with her daily.
    It would be soon...
    
    	The three would get together at times for dinner and our couple
    would attend the pool parties that Dave and Jill threw in the summer.
    Herb became good friend with Dave eventually, often expressing gratitude
    to him for his part in Patty's life: "If you weren't there for her
    when she had the accident last winter when I was in Seattle...I dont 
    know - I would've *completely* freaked! You getting through to me and 
    all - you really are someone special, Dave"
    
    	Joe
    	
    

    I dont feel sorry for Patty at all.  She is playing with Herbs feelings
    and Herb is a way for her to feel secure, yeah she "has" someone...and
    he is good for the time being until Joe Gorgious comes into her life
    then she will drop Herb like a hot potato. How is going to get hurt?
    Herb!
    
    In the first place if she was not attracted to Herb, she should have
    cut off the relationship in the first place when he shown the first
    sign of attraction to her.  Which means nobody gets hurt and SHE gets
    who she wants.
    
    Lynne

    Sandy Ciccolini, I really enjoy reading your notes.  They're very open
    yet sensible.  Several of your responses to various disscussions make
    good sense.
    
    Just wanted to let you know, 'cause there's been quite a few times when
    I've agreed with you.
    
    
    Cin

    
    Re: .44
    
    Awwwwww, lovely!
    
    Sam