Conference quark::human_relations-v1

    Perhaps your wife would be more likely to accept your female friends
    if she were to make friends with some males.

RE:    < Note 1062.1 by VMSZOO::ECKERT "Jerry Eckert" >


   > Perhaps your wife would be more likely to accept your female friends
   > if she were to make friends with some males.


         I wish my wife would make some male friends....but she just
    doesn't. She doesn't work with any males, and she never really has
    had a male friend besides her brother. I don't know if it's a mental
    block on her part or what. She just won't associate with other men.
    
         I have always been very open with her, but this is one subject
    that I have to stay away from...she's just too unstable about it.
    
         Anyone else have an idea?(thank you for yours...any help
    is always appreciated) 

    
    
    
                               Ciao
    
    
                               jim s.

    RE:< Note 1062.3 by SFCPMO::TEGLOVIC "This note's for you!" >

    
         Hmmmm....I like your idea, maybe it would work. I don't know
    why I didn't think  of it...guess I closed off the 'easier'
    possiblities. 
    
    
         Thanx...I'll give it a shot...
    
    
    
                                  jim s.
    
    
    p.s.- Keep the suggestions coming though...I love a good brainstorming
    session! :*)
    
    

    Regarding the title of your note - the Employee Assistance Program
    provides free counselling for employees.   You may want to give it
    a try and talk about your feelings to an EAP counselor, who may give
    you some helpful ideas.
    
    			Steve

    You know, I was writing a long and elaberate note about my relationship
    with my girlfriend and the fact that I too have many female friends,
    when it struck.  How close of a "friend" is your wife to you?  I
    mean you obviously love her and she you, but have you made her a
    friend and confident in your life?  Do you sometimes come home at
    night and say "Hun, let's get a sitter for the youngin' and go out
    for a couple drinks and some chit-chat.  Have her meet up with some
    of your other friends and introduce them.  She may not be jealous
    of the fact that you have female friends so much as the fact that
    she is jealous of there friendship with you.  
    
    I like to think that my girlfriend who isn't jealous of my varied
    friendships with other girls, understands that she too is my friend
    and my closest confident. That as far as friendship goes, she is
    one of my best friends and due to the fact that I also love her,
    she has an advantage over all of them.  
    
    Just something to think about. I can't say for sure that it's the
    reason we seem to get on so well, I just know that we do.
    
    Skip

re:  .0
 
>>>If ya trust me so much hun, why can't I have a female friend call without
you giving me the third degree afterwords, hmmmm?


Perhaps she doesn't mind you having female friends at your work place... but
perhaps she doesn't like them calling you at home.

Just a thought, based on your on words above.  I can see potential problems
with that.

-DB

    I think that fimale friends are only good to a certain point...why do
    you need to share so much friendship with them and not with your wife? 
    It is OK to have friends, but I think I would also object to receive
    calls for my husband from other females that were not related to work
    or business or whatever... when a person loves another person it is
    difficult to share with someone else without a VALID reason... but of
    course, this is my personal opinion.  Love is possesive, I would be
    careful not to hurt your wife with unnecessary or unimportant
    reasons... try to bring her in, to share your circle of friends, she
    might like them and will start feeling less jelous of the female side
    of the group... you could also measure how much it means to you your
    female friends versus your wife's friendship... in my humble opinion
    your wife wins.
    

re .8

Being too posessive is a good way to push someone away.  Friends are friends,
whether they are male or female, so I would have problems maintaining a 
relationship with an S.O. if she couldn't respect that.  I doubt I would 
ever marry someone like that.  

re bringing her in...

Yes!  Find common ground - something you all enjoy doing (e.g. go to the
theatre, dancing, beach, whatever).

    
    	A lot of people are shocked at the relationship my husband
    	and I have.  I have many male friends and it doesn't bother
    	him.  Most of them I met long before I knew him, some are new
    	friends but he accepts them as friends of mine and doesn't read
    	anything else into it.  He has a few female friends but none
    	that I think are really close except for one close girlfriend
    	of mine.  The three of us go out alot together and have a good
    	time.  An acquaintance of ours that also frequents the places
    	we do had a friend of hers ask 'who' my husband was married to.
    	Who meaning me or my girlfriend.  My friend dances with my 
    	husband more than I do for the simple fact that they dance alike.
    	And they hug and give each other hello and goodbye kisses.  And
    	it doesn't bother me at all.  We all have a strong closeness
    	with each other so it's just like old hat when we get together.
    	A lot of 'outsiders' don't understand how I can let my husband
    	and my one of my best friends act like they do when we're together.
    	It's called trust.  My husband would never do anything to hurt me
    	nor would my friend...and I trust both of them implicitly.
    
    	JJ
    

    It's her problem, not yours.  She has to learn to trust you.
    Until she changes *her* attitude, there's nothing you can do.

    If you do end up inviting your female friends over to meet your
    wife, suggest that they bring along their spouse/so or boyfiend.
     When your wife sees that your friends have other romantic interests,
    she may feel less threatened.  Other than that, I would suggest
    counseling for your wife to discover why she feels so jealous. 
    If your female friends call for reasons other than business, I can
    understand how your wife might feel insecure, especially if she
    has low self-esteem.  I agree with others who have suggested that
    you spend more quality time with your wife.
    
    Good Luck!
    Barb

    I think this situation has to be handled very carefully.  I was married
    to someone who played in a band and the lead singer was a woman.  They
    became friends and my thought was why just because she is a woman can't
    can't they be friends, I should not hold this against her.  So I opened 
    my home to her and they had an affair right in my home.  I was very young 
    and naive.
    
    Now, I am still best friends with my high school sweetheart and see him
    and talk to him on the phone often (13 yrs later).  He is married and 
    has 3 kids.  It took awhile for his wife to accept me but now we are good 
    friends, too.  And it's all on the up and up.
    
    The key here:  I think it is important you include your wife in your
    friendship with your woman-friend.  That doesn't mean you can't have
    some privacy, but it is important your woman-friend makes an effort to
    let your wife know she is also interested in her, too, to build trust
    and because your wife is very important to you.  This means being able 
    to socialize with the two of you and with your other friends, but always 
    letting your wife be the spotlight in your life.  In my marriage it 
    became clear to me shortly after that this woman had no interest in 
    me whatsoever and was clearly just interested in my husband to the 
    point of ignoring me.  If I call my high school sweetheart and his wife 
    answers I take the time to talk to her, or if he isn't home I do.  Why?  
    Because I like her but more because I want her to know (and I told her 
    long ago) that there is no reason to feel threatened by me.
    
    Honesty and openess is the key.
    

The last noter has made an excellent point.  Caution and wisdom must be used.
Only a fool goes on blind trust.  We are all human, and therefore have limits,
including limits of willpower.

People are too quick to say that the "wife" of the base noter has a problem and
must change.  We haven't been given enough information.  We don't know the real
story of the husband receiving calls and home, and as to what type of calls
he's getting.  We don't know anything about his female friends nor their
motives, if any.

I'd suggest using caution when telling the base noter that his wife is sick and
needs help and that he is on track.  Maybe his wife knows something about him,
about them, that we don't know.  Is that possible?

-dwight

    I can't see any reason why my 'other half' does not have friends
    that are female, but I wouldn't like it if he kept them a secret.
     He will have lunch now and then with a friend (female), but tells
    me so I don't feel threatened.  
    
    I have some male friends, which he knows about - we often go out
    as a group - no problem for us.
    
    Does the original noter on this subject reassure his wife enough?
     Maybe she doesn't feel loved enough and is feeling very insecure.
    I certainly see her reaction to his friends and insecurity, and
    maybe with lots of love and reassurance, she will relax.
    
    Brenda

    
    Excessive jealousy is so unbecoming, however, if your wife is not the
    overly jealous type, then maybe you should be asking yourself "how
    friendly am I with my female friends", "is this a friendship or a
    flurtatious gesture".
    
    -Lynn
    

Jim, 
An observation:

>    ... I don't intend to be
>    cold to my female friends just because my wife doesn't like it.

The structure of that sentence is quite hostile. The format
is most commonly found in sarcastic statements:

  I don't intend to drive 50 miles in the pouring rain 
  because she's too cheap to spend $5 for a cab!

  I don't intend to spend the rest of my life
  picking up after you!

Are you flaunting your friendships like a subtle challenge?
No?  Are you sure?  Could this be "I'm such a 
wonderful, friendly person and your such a crab."

>   What I want to know is: is this normal? 
    No.
As an adult, you must know or have know several hundred women
well enough have casual conversations with. How common does
it seem to you.

However, a good way to plant a bomb on Anyone ... is to regularly
commit unfortunate comparisons ...   dumping on Pat for doing X badly, 
then praising Tee to Pat for doing X very well. (This is a good 
one for sibling rivalry. Also a good way to express hostility.)

Frankly, my take is, your wife is a bit extreme about this, but
I also feel there is some kind of hostility or one-up-man-ship 
going on here.

>         If ya trust me so much hun, why can't I have a female friend
>    call without you giving me the third degree afterwords, hmmmm?
    
So what's the third degree? One question? Two questions?
Are you forcing a game of 20 questions?

 who was that?                   a friend.
 what's her name?                Jill.
 where from?                     work.    
 why's she calling?              to talk to me.
 How come?                       Why the third degree?    

Meigs

    RE:< Note 1062.17 by CADSE::GLIDEWELL "Wow! It's The Abyss!" >


>Jim, 
>An observation:

>>    ... I don't intend to be
>>    cold to my female friends just because my wife doesn't like it.

>The structure of that sentence is quite hostile. 

     I think that it just came out wrong. I have known my wife for over
    8 years (we've been married just over 1) as just a friend. She was
    my best friends sister so we used to go out as friends, but that
    was it. We had good times...and still do.
    
     I think that the reason I responded (wrote) hostily is the fact
    that I can't stand for anyone to pick who I have as friends. I can
    understand expressing a concern ("Did you know he does coke?") but
    not blatantly saying, "you can't see that person because I said
    so!"...kind of bad parentish, doncha think? It has never actually
    come to this sentence, but when I ask her for her reasoning on not
    liking some of my female friends, she can't give me an answer.
    
     Just the other day, she said to me, "Those girls you used to hang
    out with were just your sluts!". Now, these people were my friends
    that I did alot of growing up with (non-sexual) and that statement
    hurt alot. She apologized immediately because she realized she phrased
    herself wrong, but it says to me that that's what she's thinking.
    Can you see where I'm coming from here?
    
    >Are you flaunting your friendships like a subtle challenge?

     I don't challenge my wife. Never. I love her and trust her explicitly.
    I also know how it hurts to be challenged...
    
> who was that?                   a friend.
> what's her name?                Jill.
> where from?                     work.    
> why's she calling?              to talk to me.
> How come?                       Why the third degree?    

    
     That's about the extent of a conversation. Except when you get
    to the third degree part, she answers, "I'm just asking!". How do
    you refute that one? I usually answer the first 4 questions right
    off the bat too...just to clear up any confusion.
    
    
    
     I think I'm going to start setting up meetings with my friends
    so that I can bring my wife along and ease her tensions. I just
    wish that it didn't have to come to this...I wish she could trust
    me as much as I trust her. She says she does, but her actions say
    otherwise. Sad....
    
    
    
    
     Thanx for all your help everyone...ALL replies have been thoroughly
    read and taken into consideration....
    
    
    
    
                                                   Thanx again,
    
    
                                                      jim s.

    Re.18
    
    >> Can you see where I'm coming from ?
    
    Yep ! you are coming from the east of west.

    .18, I think I read Meigs' imagined conversation a little differently. 
    I thought the striking thing about it was the monosyllabic nature of
    the responses: 
    
>> who was that?                   a friend.
>> what's her name?                Jill.
>> where from?                     work.    
>> why's she calling?              to talk to me.
>> How come?                       Why the third degree?    

    
  >   That's about the extent of a conversation. Except when you get
      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
  >  to the third degree part, she answers, "I'm just asking!".
                                                 ^^^^^^^^^^^
  > How do you refute that one?
    
    I can't refute that she's just asking!!  But based on my assumptions of
    monosyllabic answers, I can assert that it seems from your wife's point
    of view that you're not really *answering*.  What if the conversation
    went like this...
    
> who was that?       Oh, that was Jill <surname>, you know, from the
                        Widget department at XYZ Co?
    
    [I think your wife wants to know WHO it is, not that it's merely a
    "not-enemy."]
    
> what's her name?    [now you've precluded the need for these parts of the
> where from?         "3rd degree."]
    
> why's she calling?  ["to talk to me", IMO, would be insulting.  You don't
                      need to play back a transcript, but you could give
                      her a *little* info:]  Aw, she thinks Honcho
                      Pinstripe is a jerk, and she just wanted to know if I
                      think she said the right thing at lunch.
              
                      
    > How come?       [Now, it's how come H.P. is a jerk, or how come
                      Jill didn't know what to say at lunch, or even how come
                      Jill can't "get a life" without calling YOU.  But
                      it's a *conversation* with your wife now, not a "Why 
                      the third degree?"
    
    Just the view through MY lens,
    Leslie

>    Just the other day, she said to me, "Those girls you used to hang
>    out with were just your sluts!". 

Ouch! That hurts! Right smack in the pride and affection
departments. 

Her lack of communication is certainly frustrating. Hmmm, and
the above ^^^ communication is not exactly a bouquet. A stab 
in the dark ... could your wife be suffering from an attitude
of zero-sum-game-ishness?  

  [for those who haven't bumped into it yet:
   A "zero sum game" is a game that has a fixed amount of stuff
   to win. So anything You win takes away from the amount I
   can win.  Like poker. An "open sum game" is a game that
   has an unlimited amount of stuff to win.]

I've known a few zero-sum-ers, and their attitudes were often
perplexing and frustrating to me. When I finally realized 
that their sometimes out-of-character smallness of spirit was based on 
a kind of zero sum attitude toward life ... well it clarified a lot.

Also, I like what Leslie said in .20 about the monosyllabic 
answers. After the next phone call, you might describe the
call a little more thoroughly. By the way, what do the 
conversations sound like from her end?  If the caller
is doing most of the talking, and your end is sorta 
content free ...

(                         )  "You really think so?
(                         )  "Right!"
(                         )  "OK"
(                         )  "Tomorrow!"
(                         )  "I love it."
(                         )  "Me Too!"
(                         )  "Yes."
(                         )  "G o o d  N i g h t."

Well, one can project a lot into (            ).

As a matter of fact, you worthless bum!!!!
That a joke, Jim. A Joke, A JOKE!!! I'mmmm Sorrrrrryyyyy!
:) :) :)
                  Meigs

    RE:< Note 1062.21 by CADSE::GLIDEWELL "Wow! It's The Abyss!" >

    
    >Also, I like what Leslie said in .20 about the monosyllabic 
>answers. After the next phone call, you might describe the
>call a little more thoroughly.


    
         That's the thing though...I go out of my way to describe my
    conversations right off the bat. I make sure I tell my wife whom
    I was speaking with, why they called (extensive explanation here),
    and I pretty much review the conversation with her. Still, I get
    the cold shoulder for about an hour after this happens....
    
         My conversations are anything but monosyllabic.....
    
    >As a matter of fact, you worthless bum!!!!

         Ouch! Meigs, what are you doing? I may be a bum but I'm worth
    something... :*)
    
    >That a joke, Jim. A Joke, A JOKE!!! I'mmmm Sorrrrrryyyyy!
    >:) :) :)

         Oh....a joke, I see! Well, since you put in THREE whole smiley
    faces, I guess I can forgive you....we'll let it go this time. :*)

    
    
    
                                            Ciao,
    
    
                                             jim s.

    Looks like I had the right solution, wrong problem!  I'm glad to
    hear the extent to which you're explaining and describing calls (but
    that and six bits buys you a cup of coffee, right?).
    
    Well, the cerebral me is always amazed and a little amused at the
    viscerally-jealous me (the most innocuous things can set me off, if I'm
    in love  %'}  ), and it does take me a while to re-enter reality after
    a surprise "suspicious event".  Probably everyone feels that way (I'm
    not *that* special!).  Some consolation for you is that the jealous
    reaction is almost certainly in direct proportion to the intensity of
    her feeling for you....  I bet she feels bad after these episodes,
    knowing that she acted/spoke inappropriately to the *real* situation,
    and I think that's evidenced by the way she retracted, immediately, the
    hurtful out-of-left-field assessment of your friends.  The green-eyed
    monster hissed and spat before she could get a grip on it.
    
    I'm babbling, I guess, but I agree that inviting your friend, and the
    friend's SO if applicable, to your house (or on an outing) with your
    wife would be a good way to start defusing individual jealousies. 
    Maybe EAP (as suggested earlier, I know) can help more with the overall
    problem.  Best of luck.
    
    Leslie  

    Maybe the reason she's so suspicious is that the two of you *were*
    friends for so long?  She might, therefore, see your other female
    friends as "backups in case this doesn't work out".

Maybe I can understand her (your wife's) situation very well because I am
the same jalous type. I really don't know where it comes from (looking
at my childhood) but I do know now that it's a point of having not enough
self confidence.

It has nothing to do with love. I always knew that my SO loved me and
cared for me and didn't inted to betray me. But whenever he talked to
another woman or one called I got so jalous that it made me sick. I then
didn't ask him any questions but became kind of ignorant against him. 
Like:
He: What's the matter?
Me: Nothing.  (Veeeeery cold voice!)
He: Well, there is something, come on!
Me: No, nothing, or would 'you' know something, hm????
He: Me???
Me: Well, there's nothing happend with me!

etc etc etc.

I know now that it has to do with not having enough self-confidence. Because
what comes immediately to my mind when he talks to other women is: Maybe
he thinks this woman is more attractive than I am? Hm, her breasts are bigger
(smaller) than mine, maybe he suddenly likes that better? She has long hair 
(mine is  short), every man likes long hair, don't they? And so on and on on...

Maybe the way would be: Try to give her the feeling that she is - for you -
the most attractive woman in the world, that you love every part of her brain
and body, with all it faults.

That's what my fiance is doing and it really helped a lot. Besides this
I must admit that he is the first man in my life who is as jalous as I am
(!) and so he really understands me (and I him!). That doesn't mean that
we don't have friends of the opposite sex, but we don't get angry if the
other one is jalous after we met with our friend. We understand completely
how the other feels and try everything to chase away the bad thoughts.

And besides, inviting this friend of the opposite sex *together with his/
her SO* is a great idea!

Good luck,
Billie

re: -< Too poor for counseling... >-

    Prologue ...
    Some of this view may  look  as  being  sexist  or  bigoted  in one
    context of another.  The view  I  present  here  is  based on "first
    person" experience ..  my own.
    
    It is offered as support for the base noters hurt, and not as  being
    the only view, but just one view, and no hurt feelings are intended.
    If you are  feeling  vulnerable or hurting today, I suggest you skip
    it for today.  
    
    Bob Early
    
    
    
>My wife get's extremely jealous when I am around, near, or
>talk about, other women. I never say anything that could be construed
>as a come on or a pass, but I am friendly....I don't intend to be
>cold to my female friends just because my wife doesn't like it.
    
    Believe  it  or  not, there are still some women in this world, that
    when  they  get  married to a man;  there is an expectation that men
    will have  men  friends,  and women will have women friends.  That's
    the way it  is  with some of these people.  I feel equally confident
    that there's few men like that, also.
    
    Another aspect is that  "some"  women ***KNOW**** how clever, witty,
    charming, seductive, etc that other  women CAN be, and their hubbies
    are so desirable (but vulnerable implied)  that  these  temptresses
    will 'go for their husband', and will  use  any  pretext to 'disarm'
    the poor guy, and lull him into a  state  of  complacency.    At the
    right moment !!  Snap ..  she's his, and the wife loses her husband.

    The  note  from  the  guy  who  was  friend  with  the bands  singer
    exemplifies this as being "proof".
    
    Some  women  have  male  friends,  but because of their own personal
    commitment to  the  marriage,  its  ok, because THEY aren't going to
    seduce their friend, and certainly their (male) friend won't seduce
    them ! (or so they believe).
    
    The sad bottom line is  this:    Any  person  might be vulnerable to
    being seduced by any person of  either sex.  A womens' female friends
    could be viewed as possible seductresses of their wife as the man's
    female friends are !
    
    The up  side  is:  A person can only be seduced if they cooperate in
    the deal, and  somehow  this  needs to be ingrained into your wifes'
    knowledge ..  it is not the other woman who needs to be trusted, but
    rather the knowledge of your  commitment  and trust that needs to be
    validated.
    
    
>What I want to know is: is this normal? Do most of you women
>hate to hear the men in your lives talk about female friends? Do
>you let them associate with female friends? Most of the folks I

    Normal ? I love that word !! 

    In this case, what  is  normal,  is  what  is  right  for the people
    involved.
    
    There is the Judeao-Christian ethic of normalcy, just as  there  was
    the    Charles_Manson   view  of  Normalcy  just  as  there  is  the
    Business_Ethic view of Normalcy.  Normal depends on who you talk to,
    and in what context.  
    
    Friends of mine were astonished that their 86 year  old  mother were
    having  an affair in a nursing home, and almost moved  her  to  Nuns
    (all female) nursing home, until they validated their mothers' right
    to live  her  own  life.    Initailly, these friends felt the normal
    women could get "too old" for a sex life, and should stop such stuff
    by some <arbitrary> age.