Conference quark::human_relations-v1

    
    I don't think anyone really knows what is happening, which is part
    of the problem.
    
    My own completely uninformed opinion:
    
    Our attitudes about love and mates have changed drastically, and
    the institutions and rituals surrounding love have failed to keep
    up.
    
    A writer once noted that the universe was not only stranger than
    we imagined, but stranger than we *could* imagine, and I believe
    the same notion can be applied to the way we love each other.  The
    institutions and rituals we have held so dear for so long are not
    equipped to deal with our changing perceptions, and it seems like
    no one wants to admit that, because it's a scary thought, as the
    unknown and unanticipated always is.
    
    DFW

    And my uninformed opinion ...
    
    Part of the problem may be that breaking up IS easier than beginning,
    or going on.  And we're lazy.  We're accustomed to instant solutions
    and instant gratification, so if it looks like hard work with less
    than perfect results, a lot of folks opt out.   
    
    Note:  I don't mean giving up -- I mean resetting priorities in
    such a way that the rewards of going on in a relationship no longer
    seem enough to justify the effort involved.  This may be because
    fewer of us value those rewards very much anymore.
    
    Gloria
    

    
    I think that Gloria hit the nail on the head.  It is so much 
    easier and more accepted to just walk away from a relationship 
    now than it was 30 years ago for example.  Some people don't 
    seem to go into a relationship with the same commitment as they
    did years ago.  It has become so easy to just go off and try to
    find someone else who you can get along with better.  And nine
    times out of ten that doesn't even work!  So what have we gained
    by having easier divorce laws, etc??  It's really kind of sad...
    I like a relationship that has commitment and the two people 
    involved are willing to work at it!  That's the only worthwhile
    relationship to me! 
    
    	My
    

re: the preceding

I don't think that forcing people to stay in unhappy relationships is the
societal panacea that some people make it out to be.  The question is why
are relationships (marital and other) so unhappy or so unfulfilling?

My feeling is that people need to believe that they are part of a community
with their spouses, fellow workers and neighbors in order to be happy.  In
the most important sense, a community is a group of people who share many
of the same values.

But there are very few values about which we can find ourselves in
agreement with most of our fellow humans nowadays.  As a child of the '50s
and '60s, I find myself constantly searching for other people who consider
the same things important in life that I do.  Unfortunately, it's easier
for me to find people who are lovable and admirable but who have entirely
different values (or perhaps who are searching for or otherwise "undecided"
about their values) than it is for me to find people about whom I can say,
"We are part of the same community".
								paul c.

    
    	We are taught by the various media available (TV, Music, Magazine
    ad, etc) that is is "fashionable" to be fickle about everything.
    Car ads are the greatest; "get it before it's gone", "how do *I*
    look in this one", etc.
    
    	How many people buy a car with the intention of it lasting 20
    years or a lifetime? How many "care" for their multi-k$ purchase
    in this manner? You can easily see how the system is geared; most
    cars owned by Joe Generic wear out and die just as the payments
    are completed - time for a new one!
    
    	With this in mind, why would relationships be any different?
    I've even seen preachers with their "new" wives...
    
    	Joe Jas
    

    re 0.4
    
    Sorry if my reply seemed to advocate staying in unhappy relationships.
    My real concern is that the definition we give to a "happy
    relationship" may be so out of touch with reality that we can't
    help being disappointed in the results of people who are only human.
    
    If we believe that there is such a thing as the "perfect" relationship,
    then we will continually find fault with the imperfect, but highly
    acceptable, relationships we have.  So when things get rough, we
    decide not to work at smoothing them out because we know we can't
    make them perfect no matter what we do.
    
    Gloria
    

    Disposable society. 
    
    We have a generation of disposal society; look at the mountains
    of trash that we generate! I am convinced that we toss out the dreges
    of our society and continue the search of the good life.
    
    I looked at myself, I buy trash bags to hold the grass clippings;
    I throw out the plastic sandwich bags. When I was a kid, granny
    fixed our lunches at home, using the wax paper that the bread comes
    in to wrap our sandwiches and we brought the paper home to be reused.
    
    She collected jars to do the jam canning in. I throw out the jars
    after the jam is gone. How easy it is to dispose of stuff [at least
    out of sight], the out cast of what we don't like.
    
    I guess that's another soapbox topic, isn't it?
    
    /cal 

	Every once in a while, a topic in here really gets me going. This
is one of them. I think the basic question is : "How did society change
so that suddenly it is more fashionable to be flighty and fickle than it
is to be serious and to work at a relationship , and how is this effecting
the quality of our relationships?"

	Well, I would like to attribute most of the problems with peoples
ideas about relationships to the infamous scapegoat T.V. ( and movies as
well ). Let's face it, through the magic of screen (small and big ) we
are able to watch a girl meet a guy, immediately be interested in each other,
throw in some sort of conflict which comes out in the wash, and then have
them ultimately realize they were in love all the time. All this is a time
frame of less than 2hrs... ( sometimes, just a half an hour will do ).
This sends so many messages to us. First of, it tells us that when we meet
this person of the opposite sex who is right for us we will know right away,
no doubt about it. Not only that, but everyone around us will know it too.
After all, the whole audience watching that screen new that those two crazy
kids would end up together... didn't they? Second, the two people will be
extremely exciting together... all those chase scenes and suspense filled
episodes we saw them in... that's what it's all about right? Third, not
only will we know that this person is right for us... but it should only
take about two hours to draw a solid conclusion... heck that's more than
what it takes to have a solid committment in those "terrific romantic" movies.
Fourth, everything should be fairly predictable... where's the script...
when does the love scene come in... where's the ever predictable break up
that helps us realize we're meant for each other... or atleast we should
have the famous farewell scene as one of use walks off into the fog.
	Yes, media has shown us the way... we can have it all. It shouldn't
take much effort... it's supposed to snap together quick as a rabbit, no
problem. Yeah , right...then when it doesn't we suffer from massive amounts
of dillusion. If it takes this much work, it's not worth it. So long, have
a nice life.
	Did you ever notice that the people in these movies aren't normal...
They don't talk to each other about everyday topics. They don't have everyday
jobs and average lifestyles... cripes... the don't even fumble their lines.
Of course, they rehearse them just for that purpose. They're not real!
	Yet, this generation has been raised on this stuff. We've been 
programmed with it. Some of you are saying that the screen doesn't have that 
big an effect on us. Space travel appeared in movies before we even considered
it possible, artificial life ( man making man with out natural conception)
before we conceived our first human from a petrie dish, laser battles well
before Ronald Reagan pre-posed our "Star Wars" defense system. No, you're
right we're immune to the effect of mass media.            
	Ok, so how does this effect the quality of our relationships. 
Our expectations are just too high. I'm not saying we should settle for
someone we find revolting... I'm just saying that the grass isn't always
greener. ( I know... bring out the cliche book... my apologies). Instead
of keeping this God-like vision of what our POS ( person of the opposite
sex)  and when they fall shy of it "dropping them like a hot potato" ...
maybe we could make our expectations of people , real people, more achievable,
as well as our expectations of a relationship. Would it be so much to ask
if we were to work out problems... we will gripe all day about how the
"two super powers should get together and end the arms race... why don't
they just sit down together and work things out..." but when was the last
time you had a major difference in beliefs with someone you were dating,
or seeing or loving or whatever word you use, and sat down at a table and
talked about it and worked it out to a solution.... not taking the easy
way out " if that's the way you feel , maybe we're not meant for each other"
Press the button Ron, let's blow this joint.

Gee , now isn't that the way to handle it? Don't worry , the next show is
about to start, I'm sure.
                                                  

    

    RE:.8
    
    I am glad that I have written something that could get someone going.
    And I guess there is a basic philosophy of a love relationship that
    is at question here.  It took 10 years to finally get together with
    the person I committed my emotions and spiritual self to.  And yes,
    at times there were scenes right out of the movies which felt like
    clips right out of the academy award nomiations.  I have forgotten
    all the details of were I worked, when it happened, how it happened,
    but still held on to a sense of love that was initially my first
    reaction upon meeting her.  ALthough I can understand "working"
    at a relationship, I don't feel it is the way I personal would like
    to deal with an emotional relationship.
    
    I guess this is hard to write without being misconstrued, but here
    it goes:  I just view a deep romantic relationship as above all
    the temporal, day-to-day activities which we deal.  I am not saying
    they are total separate, just that is seems that if two people argue,
    it becomes almost impossible to their arms around eachother and
    still say that they love eachother.  There aren't many people who
    can experience that type of relationship.  Many of us have had onesided
    relationships where, as soon as the only side in the relationship
    stops caring, the relationship ends.  Some end it out of
    self-preservation to end the stripping of all identity, others just
    get worn down.  
    
    But it may be that only that real true love only happens one time
    in a person's life 

    In all these replies so far, I have been noticing the term "we"
    used a lot. I'm assuming that the "we" represents American society
    as a whole, not just "we" Noters.
    
    Implicit in this is that each of us has the power to make his or
    her relationship work, that he or she shouldn't just give up and
    go on to bigger-and-better things.
    
    An earlier reply referred to all the old cliches being brought out.
    A well-worn phrase is the one that goes "it takes two to make a
    relationship, it takes two to break one". WRONG. It may take two
    to make a relationship, but it takes only ONE person - if he or she
    want out of a marriage -  to bring about divorce. You cannot force
    someone to stay in a marriage. If he or she thinks the grass will
    be greener, they'll go, and there's not one damned thing you can
    do to stop it. It's one of the most powerless feelings.
    
    Many have cited our "throwaway" society as one of the reasons for
    the high divorce rate. Others have mentioned the "ideal" relation-
    ships, as portrayed on TV, being a cause for the dissatisfaction that
    people feel in their own marriages. Additionally, American society
    no longer puts a stigma on someone who is divorced, very possibly
    because divorce *is* so common.
    
    However, I believe one of the biggest contributing factors that
    has not been mentioned, on the part of women seeking a divorce,
    is the fact that women in America no longer are financially
    dependent on a man (her husband), in order to survive. They can
    be independent, they can economically exist on their own. In no
    way am I implying that women should not work. It is only a factual
    statement. I might add, though, that some of the right-wing 
    religious groups DO state that working women are leading to the
    breakup of the fabric of the American family, and should not work.
    
    And for those who think that divorce is the easy way out, it def-
    initely is not. It is one of the most painful experiences that an
    adult must live through. Earlier in this Conference, there was a
    Note entitled: "Divorce - The Other Side of Marriage". Read it,
    and, literally, weep.
    
       Alan
        

    RE: .9
    
    I think a good term for the emotional and spiritual bonding you
    mention is "soul-mate".
    
    This is the term that Richard Bach (the author of "Jonathan
    Livingston Seagull") uses to describe his relentless longing,
    and search, for that one perfect person for his life.
    
    The name of the book is "A Bridge Across Forever". I thought it
    a very romantic, if somewhat mystical, semi-autobiography.
    
        Alan 
            

    
    re: The Bridge Across Forever
    
    Am I the only person on the face of the planet that thought Mr.
    Bach was, not to put too fine a point on it, full of it?
    
    DFW

    I have to agree with the others that say it too easy to walk away
    than to stay and put in the effort required to make a marriage work.
    My ex thought that marriage was going to be perfect from the start
    and when it wasent she decided it was all wrong and couldent ever
    be good. I would guess that an 18 month old marriage is far from
    perfect in the best cases and ours was no exception.
    One older couple i know (married 67 years) told me that the younger
    generations have had it far too easy and that has made us early
    quitters when things dont go our way. I after looking at myself
    and others have started beliving them.
    
    I've even wondered if it was a matter of it being more acceptible
    to quit rather than fail. I would rather have been able to look
    back at mine and say we both really tried than to say she quit
    when we could have worked it out. I never was allowed to even try
    to work things out with my wife she simply moved back to connecticut
    while I was in the hospitial and let the distance and her parents
    save her the effort of telling me why. Before I knew there was even
    a problem she was 2000 miles away already. 
    Sorry to have strayed abit but this really hits home with me.
    
    Yes, in todays society it is easier to quit than try and if this
    is not true, why are divorces so common today when they were uncommon
    30 years ago?
    
    -j
    

    
    	Can anyone here reply with some examples of, er, "things" that
    they have taken into their lives - of which they plan on keeping
    forever? (Of course, dont reply with your SO's name!)
    
    	Perhaps a musical instrument of some kind, or a set of silverware
    or jewlrey, or tools...this is something you *care* for with Forever
    in mind.
    
    	Joe Jas
    

When I lost a particular lady, I bought myself a flute, and started learning
to play it, playing many a long low note... because we had promised each
other that you would sing and play together and explore our musical talents
and the rest of each other together...

To me, that flute is her, and we still sing and play together...

Jim.

    I'm a little late in responding to this topic, but having just read
    it, I feel deeply saddened, and guess just had to let my emotions
    out.
    
    From what .8 and .9 were discussing, it brings back memories, horrible,
    sad memories.  I try not to think of myself as a quitter, but I
    was one of those people who walked out on someone I cared for and
    loved very much.  I think that so far in this life, it was probably
    the hardest thing I ever did.  So, when some of you talk about it
    being easy, and being the *IN* thing to do as soon as things get
    rough, you make it sound like these people (like myself) have
    absolutely no emotions !  I ended a relationship of 3 years due
    to what I beleive was a MAJOR communications breakdown.  I'm not
    going to go into details, cause you'd probably fall asleep.  I'm
    just saying that if you beleive that breaking up is easy, you need
    your head examined.
    
    I left a beautiful, intelligent, caring and sensitive woman, sitting
    on a couch with a pillow clutched in her arms, sobbing, practically
    begging me not to leave.  And although I must sound like the ultimate
    heartbreaker that most women just love to hate, I left because I
    knew in my heart that if I stayed, life would not be the way I wanted
    it to be. ( I guess we all have to consider ourselves at some time).
    
    That was several years ago, and I have since developed a new
    relationship.  I beleive that I will always be happy in this one.
    But you know, I beleive that I'll never get over leaving my past
    love.  I seem to think about her a lot.  Sometimes, I'm totally
    concentrated on something else, and she just 'slips into mind'.
    And the thing I remember most, is the expression on her face,
    so much hurt.  I was in tears before I walked out the door, but
    I knew it was something I felt I had to do.  I guess the pain that
    I constantly feel is the pain that I know she experienced, and it
    was all because of me.
    
    My moral to this story; if you genuinely love someone, but yet know
    that the relationship will deteriorate if you don't leave, breaking
    up will be the hardest thing you've ever done.