Conference quark::human_relations-v1

    re .31, I can't speak for the basenoter, but I can't help but wonder
    exactly how much you do have in common with her.  Her problem is that
    her SO doesn't want her to do anything, or go anywhere without him,
    whereas you specifically mention that your wife doesn't want you to
    visit your parents.  Maybe she just hates your parents?  Just a
    thought...
    
    
    Lorna
    

    Seems worse then that, she seems to have a 'Queen of the House'
    attitude.
    
    Stop doing the work, except for your OWN needs and see what happens.
    
    When she complains, explain that you don't have the energy to work and 
    keep house for her and yourself anymore.  She'll have to start helping 
    out with it, or you'll have to find some other way of taking care of 
    the situation.  
    
    It's scary at first, but being single is NOT the worse thing that can 
    happen to you.  At lest your work load at home would be cut down to 
    1/2
    
    Skip

Re: base note

And if you are really having problems with self-esteem, counseling can help,
if you're willing to take the plunge. I think it's hard to see anything clearly
in a relationship if one is struggling with one's own self-image, all that
personal questioning (is it me? did I do something to deserve this? what's 
wrong with me, etc.)

A visit to EAP might help you with this.

As an aside...what is it with our society? This struggle with low self-esteem...
it's a constant battle I wage with myself.  So many people I know struggle 
with it. oh well. Guess there's no concrete answers to that one.

joan

    Actually, it has a lot to do with the way we were raised, the concepts
    of child rearing our parents were taught to use and what they've
    discovered about it lately... Also, believe it or not our present day 
    society was not the only generation to deal with low self-esteem, it
    is the first one to recognize it as a serious problem that needs to be 
    addressed and dealt with.  
    
    FWIW.... 
    Skip

    She wont let you see your folks??? There is something seriously wrong.
    You mean to tell that she does not do housework at all?? What does she
    do that is beneficial to your relationship. A marraige should be 50/50.
    Stop picking up after her every whim and if she does not like your
    folks tell her tough you are seeing them anyway weather she likes it or
    not and if she does not agree tell her to shape up and ship out. You
    dont deserve that kind of treatment, there are other fish in the sea if
    it does not work out. As I say if she does not cooperate tell her to
    take the hobby of "Hiking"!

    I have a strong feeling that I'm only hearing one side of this story.
    
    Lorna
    

    GO!  You never know, you might just be able to work things out.  
    
    In my experience, the most difficult thing to accomplish in salvaging 
    a relationship is opening the lines of effective communication.  It's 
    possible your 'night out' made her stop and realize that she needs to 
    listen and work out some things with you.  Don't let her put you on 
    the defensive, if she starts to get angry about things, tell her you 
    came to discuss things, not argue, and if she's lossing her temper
    it may be better to leave for now and come back to the discussion 
    later.  
    
    Don't lose you composure, don't get angry, and don't let it turn into a 
    shouting match.  If you feel yourself losing control, tell her so, then 
    ask to be excused and leave the table for a few minutes until you can 
    regain control.  The key NOW is to discuss the problems, and work out 
    possible solutions.  Don't allow her to lose her temper, and by all
    means avoid a 'shouting match'.  
    
    If you've had any training in sales negotiation, apply it, the
    technique's  envolved are remarkably similar to those taught by marriage 
    counselors.  
    
    Good Luck!
    Skip

    Is there a reason why your spouse wants to know where you are all 
    the time?  Have you done something behind her back she found out
    about?
    
    Why would you want to go to your parents or anywhere that's not
    work related without your spouse anyway? Unless it's like hunting or
    some MAN thing.
    
    Just curious...
    

    Well, I can't answer the first part, but I for one need my own space 
    from time to time. To pursue the things I take an interst in that my 
    'SO' doesn't take an interst in.  It's not a 'MAN' thing, it's called 
    being an individual.  WHY would anyone want to spend EVERY MOMENT away
    from work with one individual all the time?  Unless THAT is some kind
    of WOMAN thing?
    
    Skip

    .9> Why would you want to go to your parents or anywhere that's not
      > work related without your spouse anyway? Unless it's like hunting or
      > some MAN thing.
    
    This is sarcasm, right?  Why would anyone want to go EVERYWHERE with
    ANY person?
    
    And p.s., hunting isn't restricted to men.
    
    Leslie
    

    re: .6
    
    Uh, in my book, married couples don't just "break up", two people who
    are dating can break or split up.  Unless you're convinced that it's
    over and not worth the effort to try to save the marriage, then I
    suggest seeing a marriage counselor.  But before you make that decision,
    think about all of the reasons why you got married.  Getting buzzed and
    seeing a boxing match should really not be the foremost on your mind.
    
       - Larry
                      

    
    	I believe you and your wife have a slight communication problem.
    
    	So, the marriage counselor didnt work for you guys - is that *all*
    the resource you can come up with to address the conflict in your
    marriage? What about books on the subject? There's one right on
    the tip of my tongue, something like "if you only could hear what
    I'm saying" that's about communcation difficulties in men/woman
    relationships. Would you be willing to read that before you just
    blow the whole thing off? (I'm sure the readership here can come
    up with the correct title and author)
    
    	What about CODA meetings? There's a whole *network* of people
    with pretty much infinite wisdom and resource available that can
    help you, your wife and your marriage! Would you be willing to try
    one of those meetings before you just blow the whole thing off? (I'm 
    sure the readership here can come up with a meeting location up there.)
    
    	Heck, I've got a *tape* that's about conflict, communication and
    negotiation in relationships by John Bradshaw. As "healthy" as I
    like to think I am, and my relationship is, I listen to it all the
    time and *every time* I listen, I pick up on something that I...could
    have done better or in a better way, in terms of how I communicate
    my feelings in my relationship. (I find that my morning and evening
    commute is a great time to spend, basically, on self improvement.)
    I can post the address of this tape set by Bradshaw here (just looked
    and I dont have it in my briefcase) *guaranteed*, the best $25 you
    ever spent. Would you be willing to buy this tape set, listen to
    it and learn some things before you just blow the whole thing off? 

    	I've based my ascertation of "communication problem" on the
    information given in your 3 entries. It's like, "I'm totally under
    her thumb now; oh BTW I was physically laid up and had to relearn
    how to walk".
    
    	That's *profound*. Ummmm, have any idea about how she felt or
    feels about the time when you were going through this trauma? This
    is *trauma* we're talking about, up there with a death of a parent
    or child, a severe accident of some sort, a mugging or rape, or a 
    loss of very substantial proportions.
    
    	Relationships characteristically take a beating when something
    traumatic happens to one or both of the people in them. It's *common*
    for a marriage to fall apart, as your apparently is, amidst trauma.
    It takes a very, very healthy relationship to get through something
    like the death of a child, one partner being assaulted and violated,
    or, in your case, one partner facing a severely debilitating disease.
    
    	You've got a "big ball" to unwind! The good news is that it *can*
    be done - both parties being willing. Some things to get through
    might be like, "Did your wife ever get a chance to emotionally grieve 
    her loss of *you*, while you were laid up?" What do I mean by
    emotionally grieve? Like cry about it; that you're sick and bedridden
    and she doesnt have you around anymore, cause, you're sick and
    bedridden. Now, lets go a step further. Did *you* ever get a chance 
    to emotionally grieve the loss of you, while you were laid up? Like,
    cry about it. Surely - I cant even imagine - it must've been painful...
    frustrating...angering...to *not be able to walk* and have to relearn
    such a basic thing we all just take for granted!

    	There's just all this unresolved energy between the two of you - 
    she's got resentments up the wazoo over you and what happened; you've
    got the same level of resentment toward her because she's acting
    out her resentments on you over what happened and she's crying on
    the phone over "you breaking up the marriage" which is grief that
    is probably finially coming out - because the action of your breakup
    allows it, instead of that happening way back when you were ill! 

    	You went away from her, when you got sick. She experienced loss
    - not that you wanted to; like the soldier who got killed in Vietnam
    - he didnt *want* to die - nevertheless, his family back home
    experienced his loss and were faced with grieving it. When you now
    leave her to go see your parents, well, you're leaving her - it's
    the very same context - leaving! That she starts yelling at you
    at that moment is perfectly understandable to me, given that she hasnt
    gotten to her anger and her grief over her loss_of_you, when you
    were taken ill. That anger has nothing to do with you seeing your
    parents; it's an anger that she *already has*, you seeing your parents
    just lets it out. Her having you "a slave around the house" now
    is likely a manefestation of her anger over what happened - taken
    out on you. It may as well be, that you buying into that for as
    long as you have, is a manefestation of your anger toward yourself
    over what happened. I mean, I'd be pretty_damn_angry at myself if
    *my* legs just stopped working one day, and I had to relearn how
    to walk!
    
    	There's a lot more that you can learn about life and relationship
    than you'll find down the path to a bottle of beer, or from anyone
    in a bar. That's IMHO. Sorry if I got carried away a bit here; I
    worked on this reply a half hour longer than I'd wanted to.
    
    	Joe 

    .14> something like "if you only could hear what
       > I'm saying" that's about communcation difficulties in men/woman
       > relationships.
    
    _You_Just_Don't_Understand_, by Deborah Tannen
    
    Leslie

Yes, CODA meetings.  Did you catch that part ?  I second that suggestion.
have you tried CODA or other 12-step meetings ?  As Tony the Tiger likes
to put it, they're g-r-r-r-r-8.

/Eric

    Richard,
    
    From reading about the type of person you are it seems to me that 
    your wife will never know what she's missing until you're gone. Boy
    does your situation remind me of someone I know.  I'm just waiting
    for them to smarten up like you are.
    
    ....
    
    In response to my previous reply.  I have never been away from my SO
    for any amount of time except when my dad took him hunting.  That's why
    I brought that up I guess.  Sorry I singled men out.  It's just
    something I don't find very fun to do.  I suppose everyone needs their
    space, but not toooo much.  
    
    ....
    
    Back to Richard.  For the type of person you seem to be, a woman would
    knock down walls to have someone like you.  So, go back down to your
    parents house, go out again Saturday night and keep your eyes peeled. 
    You'll be surprised what you'll see.  It's a whole new world when
    you're happy and relaxed with life.
    
    Good luck,
    
    B

>>    Back to Richard.  For the type of person you seem to be, a woman would
>>    knock down walls to have someone like you.  So, go back down to your
>>    parents house, go out again Saturday night and keep your eyes peeled.
>>    You'll be surprised what you'll see.  It's a whole new world when
>>    you're happy and relaxed with life.
    
    Wait, hold the phone.  This guy is still married, remember?  In my mind
    you don't leave your wife and start scoping women all in the same
    week...regardless of the circumstances.  If it's over, it's over, and
    I'll be the first to agree that two people shouldn't stay married if they
    no longer love eachother, but this just sounds way too sudden.
    
    Richard, if you're really (and I mean really) convinced it's over, move
    out, go through the separation proceedings, and take things one step
    at a time.  Otherwise, talk it over with your wife, maybe agree to
    separate for awhile to see how things go, or try a different counselor,
    or something else.
    
       - Larry
                          

    SPOKEN LIKE A TRUE WOMAN..............

    re. -.19 (WFOV12::ASKINS)
    
    Please, what do you mean by that?  I presume the author of the previous
    note is a man (Larry is usually a man's name), so I have to presume
    you're either putting him down in a sexist way--or you're addressing
    some other reply?
    
    If you disagree with what -.18 said about there needing to be some 
    period of adjustment between a marital breakup and going out to "scope" 
    the women, do you mean that a marriage is of so little import that it
    doesn't deserve some mourning period when it's dead?
    
    I hope I'm reading more into your response than you intended.  Please
    do let us know what you meant to say.
    
    Karen

    Thanks Karen.  Last time I checked (in the shower this morning) I was
    still a man.  ;-)
    
       - Larry

    re:.20
    
    Saying "spoken like a woman" is a sexist insult?
    
    Only if you think women are inferior.  Do you?

.22

It's certainly sexist to a certain degree as it implies that women and 
men generically would have spoken/responded differently, therefore it's
implying a difference between the sexes...   which there are certainly 
a few of.  

It could have been implying that men were inferior ... or is that a 
possibility you wouldn't consider someone being able to believe ;-)

    
    	It's been a while and I apologize for taking so long to enter
    this here -
    
    	The tape set I referred to in .14 is:
    
    			"Fighting Fair" - 2 tapes, $20
    
    	Other tape sets available - which may be relevant to interpersonal
    communication difficulties in relationship and marriage - are:
    
    			"Ways to Enhance Intimacy" - 4 tapes, $40
    
    			"Resentment and Forgiveness" - 4 tapes, $40
    
    			"Creating Healthy Relationships" - 2 tapes, $20

    
    	My opinion is that "Fighting Fair" is an informational bargain;
    trully something that can profoundly change your life and how you live
    it - given the willingness to listen to it and hear what's in it.
    
    	These can be ordered with a credit card by calling 800-962-9992.
    I dont have the address to send a money order, but I'm sure that
    can be provided by calling the 800 number. Mass residents can call
    617-964-5050 I believe.
    
    	I've no connection personally with the promotion or sale of these
    tapes. I am entering this solely for informational purposes and
    to share an opportunity that, for me, has been wonderful in terms
    of expanding my own knowledge and in terms of my own growth as a
    human being and person.
    
    	Joe