Conference quark::human_relations-v1

    Just to clarify......I didn't say associate, if you limit
    who you associate with, eternal boredom will result.  
    Nationality and religion have nothing to do with who
    I associate with.  However I was wondering about dating.
    
    V

    what ever floats yer boat
    

    
    Re:133.4
    
    Why do you want to only associate with DECies??
    
    (There are many nice folks that aren't DECies...)
    
    Sorry I got diverted from the intent of the main note...
    
    nmw

    Getting back to the original note.
    
   Once I knew a young man from Africa who felt that the caucasian
    American women who would not date him were bigoted. Actually
    (looking on the situation as an outsider) he was just a very 
    unpleasant person, and would have had trouble getting dates
    no matter where he came from. (I was his teacher.)
    
    I think there well may be people who use this issue as a sort
    of weapon when someone won't go out with them.
    
    Also if someone is uncomfortable around a person then they are not
    bigotted if they do not want to date them no matter what the reason.
    
    Bigotry would be the refusal to learn about, to associate with,
    to be acquaintances with etc. a person of a different race or ethnic
    background because they are of that background.
    
    

re .1

>      If a person declines an invitation to share some time with another
>    solely because that person doesn't like the way he or she looks,
>    talks, dresses, associates with etc., and then professes to be
>    open minded and liberal, then I feel that is bigotry.  
>
>      By the same token, if a person declines the same and states openly
>    the reason then that just being honest.

Suppose this person states openly that the reason is that they don't like the 
way this other person looks, talks, dresses, etc.? 
      
re .8

>   Once I knew a young man from Africa who felt that the caucasian
>    American women who would not date him were bigoted. Actually
>    (looking on the situation as an outsider) he was just a very 
>    unpleasant person, and would have had trouble getting dates
>    no matter where he came from. (I was his teacher.)
>    
>    I think there well may be people who use this issue as a sort
>    of weapon when someone won't go out with them.

Of course there are people like this. On the other hand there are people who 
won't date someone because they aren't the 'right' color, religious affiliation,
economic status, etc. 
    
>    Also if someone is uncomfortable around a person then they are not
>    bigotted if they do not want to date them no matter what the reason.

But why is this someone uncomfortable around this other person? If it's 
because the other person is a jerk, that's one thing. But if the reason is
simply because the other person is from a different ethnic or racial 
background, then I think that constitutes bigotry/prejudice.

re .9
    	
>    Personally, I have been turned down several times for being white american 
>    male.  

Just curious - how did you know that was why you were turned down? Maybe they
just didn't like the way you were dressed? ;-}    

	- Ed

    I think people have to realize that when you first meet someone
    you notice their physical appearance, everyone does.  Some people
    like blondes, or blue eyes, or some one tall, I don't really see
    the difference.  If I'm not physically attracted to someone of another
    race, then I'm not attracted to him, that doesn't mean I'm a bigot!
    If I won't be friends with him for that reason then it is a different
    story.
    
    I do realize that many people are prejudice.  I was once going to
    go out with a gentlman from an old job that was of a different race.
    It didn't go over very well when I brought up the subject with my
    grandparents.  They brought up some very good points though.  People
    will look at you (if not stare), you get hastled by others, if you
    get married and have children then you have to worry about how other
    kids are going to treat them.
    
    I don't personally see anything wrong with interracial dating/marriage,
    but the points I stated in the above paragraph are realistic.  May be
    those reasons point out why some people would just rather avoid the
    situation all together.

    re .12

    Yes, many people are prejudiced. Some try to hide it, professing to be 
    liberal regarding interracial dating until someone of another ethnic or
    racial background shows up at their door. Then it's "OK except for MY 
    son/daughter!"

    When I was in high school I became very close friends with a girl of a 
    different race, and after a while she made it clear that she wanted to date
    me. She agonized over this because her parents (father, mostly) would never 
    tolerate such a thing, and had said so repeatedly. We kept in touch after 
    I left my home town to go to college, and for 4 or 5 years she dated guys 
    of her own race. Her parents never really took a candle to any of these 
    guys. After she broke up with one particularly awful guy her father asked 
    her "What ever happened to that nice young man you were friends with in 
    high school (yours truly)? How come you never dated him?" 
    "*DAD*!!!!! ARRRRRGGGHHHHHHH!!!!!!"

    I'll be DAMNED if I let a stranger's stare dictate who I date! Suppose you
    dated someone that looked like a Greek god(/dess) and they got into an
    accident and were disfigured. People would look at you when you went out
    together, wouldn't they? Are you gonna stop seeing them because of that? 
    Not trying to belittle the wisdom of your grandparents, but the times they 
    are a-changin'.. slowly..

>    I don't personally see anything wrong with interracial dating/marriage,
>    but the points I stated in the above paragraph are realistic.  May be
>    those reasons point out why some people would just rather avoid the
>    situation all together.

    If you feel the points your grandparents made are realistic then how can you
    say you don't see anything wrong with interracial dating/marriage?

    RE: 13
    
    I don't think that you really understand what I'm saying.  What
    I think about interracial dating is that it is okay if you yourself
    feel comfortable with it.  But listening to my grandparents view
    I do understand where they are coming from and why it wouldn't be
    right for them.  I'm not one to tell them if they are right or wrong,
    just to listen and make my own decisions.
    
    I do feel that the statements that they made where realistic, and
    I do understand their point of view.  Maybe they don't like feel
    comfortable in that type of situation.  You have to understand where
    people are coming from and that not everyone is going to have the
    same opions as you.  If you just listen, whether you agree or not,
    maybe you can just understand which would give you a broader outlook
    on life.

    
    Re .14, if you don't "feel comfortable" with "interracial dating"
    then, in my opinion, you are a racist and a bigot - regardless of
    your particular color.
    
    People are individuals.  I decide who I would like to date because
    of their personality, not their race, religion or ethnic background.
     If I'm happy in someone's company I don't give a damn who stares
    or what anybody else thinks.
    
    Lorna
    

    
    	Sure, don't we all sound like liberal little lefties here.
    
    	You all say that you will not care what people think,
    	well that is fine, until such time as those very same people
    	are your parents or very close friends.
    
    	No, I am not bigoted, I am REALISTIC.  Saying that you only
    	judge someone by their personlity INCLUDES their BACKROUND
    	and any other associated elements of race, creed and nationality.
   	
    
    	

    Websters 9th New Collegiate Dictionary
    
    Racism - a belief that race is the primary determinant of human
    traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent
    superiority of a particular race - racist-n or adj

    Bigot - one obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his own opinions
    and prejudices
    
    Is it possible to have a bigoted attitude toward bigots, or is
    that recursive?
    

    re .14
    
>    				But listening to my grandparents view
>    I do understand where they are coming from and why it wouldn't be
>    right for them.  I'm not one to tell them if they are right or wrong,
>    just to listen and make my own decisions.

    I must have missed that point in .12 - you said that you were going to date 
    someone of a different race and that it didn't go over very well when you
    mentioned it to your grandparents? It sounded to me like they were telling
    you what was right for *you*. I'm happy to hear that you listened and made
    your own decision, and didn't take their word as gospel. I was once in a
    similar situation with my great-grandparents, and I handled it the same
    way - I listened to them and then made my own decisions.

>    I do feel that the statements that they made where realistic, and
>    I do understand their point of view.  Maybe they don't like feel
>    comfortable in that type of situation.  

    But they weren't in that type of situation, you were.

    I listen to, welcome and try to understand other points of view, whether or 
    not I agree with them. If I didn't feel that way then I wouldn't 
    participate in this conference.

re .16

>    	You all say that you will not care what people think,
>    	well that is fine, until such time as those very same people
>    	are your parents or very close friends.

My closest friends have no problem with dating across racial/national lines. In
fact my best friend has a roommate of a different race and they are both
currently going steady with women of different races! 

My parents are a little different, they claim to be liberal but have surprised
me with bigoted statements from time to time. Despite that I feel they're
pretty tolerant.

    
    Re .16, I don't know about you, but I *am* a "liberal little lefty"
    and I don't let my parents and friends dictate my values and morals.
    
    Lorna
    

    
    I have a very dear friend who is a beautiful black lady.  Her  
    kids consider me an aunt and my daughter calls her aunt.  One 
    day we were talking about race differences.  Anyway, I told her
    she was prejudiced cause she always called "white" men little
    white boys.  Whenever she wanted whoever she was dating to introduce
    me to someone, she specified a little white boy.  I asked her why?
    Cause she would kick the &*^&*^(* out of me if I dared to take 
    a black man away from an eligible black lady.  Hmmm, I thought,
    I asked her if she would let her sons date white girls, she said 
    as long as it didn't get serious she didn't want half breed
    grandchildren. I asked her if she would date a white man,  
    never. Why? cause she was having a hard enough time by herself 
    as a black single woman.  
    There's alot more to our conversations
    but they may not be appropriate for this notes file.  Lets just
    say she felt white men could never measure up to a black man.
 

    What is wrong about prejudice or bigotry?  Other than causing
    the person with the belief to miss out on some good experiences,
    who is harmed?  Now, if a prejudiced person hurts someone, that
    is a wrong thing, but it is the act of injury which is wrong,
    not the motive behind it.  Prejudgements are a way of saving
    time otherwise spent thinking, a habit.  Given that thought is
    not free (it takes time and energy), making prejudgements is a
    perfectly reasonable thing to do.
    
    As an aside--to pick a mate who is of your own background is
    a good general strategy, as there are likely to be fewer sources
    of contention.  Most people do, despite the oft-repeated theory
    that you can't choose whom to fall in love with.  This does
    not strike me as wrong, but practical.
    
    				-John Bishop

    
    Re .21, I guess nobody ever said prejudice isn't a two-way street.
    
    Re .22, What is wrong with prejudice if it's in thought only?  Well,
    I guess Hitler must have spent a little time thinking about how
    he hated Jews long before the concentration camps, for one example.
     I guess members of the Ku Klux Klan must have thought about hating
    blacks before they started their lynchings.  Prejudice, racism,
    whatever you want to call it has caused a great deal of suffering
    in the world - so much so that even thinking in that way should
    be avoided so that this type of mass persecution doesn't keep happening
    in the world.
    
    It might be easier to kill somebody if you consider them to be one
    of a race of people that you would never consider marrying.
    
    Lorna
    

    Re .32:
    
    I said "what is wrong with the belief", not "what is wrong
    with the act".   You have cited bad acts, and not examples
    of "predudice ... in thought only".
    
    Acts cause suffering, I agree.  Thought does not cause the
    suffering of anyone but the thinker.
    
    "Even thinking in that way should be avoided.."?  This seems
    to reveal a belief that the thought-to-act linkage is so close
    that the thinker has no choice whether to act.
    
    			-John Bishop

    Webster's 9th New Collegiate Dictionary
    
    Prejudice  1: injury or damage resulting from some judgement or
    action of another in disregard to one's rights, esp.  detriment
    to one's legal right or claims - 2:  preconcieved judgement or opinion,
    an adverse opinion or leaning formed without just grounds or before
    sufficient knowledge.
    
    I think prejudice, as used in this topic, is definition 2
    
    I am prejudiced against prejudiced people, especially those that
    abuse helpless little words.

    It is not uncommon for people to use physical characteristics -
    height, weight, age, hair color, <insert favorite part of anatomy
    here> size - to select or reject potential dates.  Most people I
    know automatically pre-screen dates on the basis of one specific
    physical characteristic - gender.
    
    Is it *inherently* more prejudiced to use race as a criterion for
    choosing one's dates than to use other physical characteristics?
    If so, why?
    
    	- Jerry

    re:.27
    
    You took the words right out of my mouth.
    
    I, too, see nothing inherently wrong about using race or skin
    color (or religion or ethnic origin or whatever) in deciding
    to whom you're attracted or not. *I* don't use these as
    criteria, but I don't see that someone else using them is a
    bigot.
    
    re:.16
    
    > You all say that you will not care what people think,
    > well that is fine, until such time as those very same people
    > are your parents or very close friends.
    
    My how we generalize. As it so happens, one of my sisters lived
    with and eventually married a black man (and while in college,
    she dated a number of black men, mostly students from various
    African countries), and my parents didn't bat an eyelash. Now,
    my aunts and uncles were a bit taken aback, but it didn't bother
    any of us in the immediate family at all. I don't suppose the
    reaction would be any different if I was to bring home a non-
    Caucasian woman.
    
    As for what my friends might think --- as far as I'm concerned,
    if my happiness/desire/interest/whatever means that little to
    them, they're no friends of mine.
    
    --- jerry

    
    
    hmm... let me see
    
    I was married to a Mexican American
    I have dated men that were Latin, Asian, Black, Irish, English and
    'merican white..  people are people and a date is a date..( I better
    be careful or I will end up back at what a date is note)..  If a
    person is nice, fun to be with and shares a common interest enough
    to make wanting to go out and spend some time together, than what
    possible difference can it make what color they are?   
    
    I will never forget the time I was sitting across the table from
    a guy I was/am still very fond of and we were chatting and eating
    dinner and somehow the word Jewish popped up..  I said "who is Jewish",
    he said "I am", I said "oh"..  I mean it was our third or forth
    date and I did not know he was Jewish..  so that just goes to prove
    how big a deal it was!!..  honestly.. I just can't imagine why if
    a person wants to spend time with another 'person' why we worry
    about these things!!  
    
    I can remember going dancing one night with a friend of mine that
    is black..  sure I noticed people looking our way a couple of times..
    if they had nothing better to do and we were that interesting then
    let 'em look!  We were having a great time so there really was no
    reason to let a few stares ruin it.
    
    I have said no to people who have asked me out.... reasons were
    cuz I did not like them, *them*, the person, the attitude, whatever
    it is that makes us like some people and not others... but I can't
    imagine inquiring into their religion, race, heritage, etc before
    hand..  
    
    All this rambling on and I still have not said what it is that strikes
    me most about this note.. that is that we are all bound to have
    something attached to our character that is bound to make us a bigot
    in someone's eyes..  I mean I would prefer not to 'date' someone
    that is not of my sexual preference, is loud and obnoxious, does
    not have any common interests with myself etc....  guess that could
    make me a bigot in someone's eyes.
    
    later, gailann 
                                                          

    faulkner you are a jerk
    
    all i can say on this very large subject
    
    is do what makes you happy
    
    and do no give a flying
    
    hoot what anybody says or does