Conference quark::human_relations-v1

    
    
    	I don't have a "you should" answer, but I hear you and
    	empathize. I recently read a book that helped me in defining
    	"what is a relationship" for me...It's called Cold Feet..
    	and I'll have to bring in the authors name tomorrow. But,
    	it talks about looking at relationships levels of five
    	stages..from dating through living together/marriage.
    	It also talked about women being ready (usally) to move along
    	before the man is ready to move along to the next stage.
    	
    	It was interesting reading for me as I have always felt that I
    	slid from one level of relationship to another without
    	having any defined boundaries around what was going on or
    	what the level of commitment was at any given point..or
    	even if there *was* any level of commitment. 
    
    	So...just a suggestion..
    	Dotty

    
    Ask him what he thinks a couple is - tell him what you think a couple
    is.
    
    Ask him if he sees you two in a couple, express your vision to him.
    
    Ask him if anything's missing from the relationship for him, or if he'd
    need anything else there in order to have you two become a "couple". 
    Ask him if he needs space, or doesn't wish to commit to a relationship
    right now.  
    
    Allow him to speak his mind, and his heart.  Support him in being
    honest with you about what he sees.  
    
    Ensure him that WHATEVER answers he expresses are the *right* ones, as
    long as he's honest.  
    
    Discuss how you feel (NOT with blame or guilt or shame, NOT as if your
    way were the only way and he's doing it wrong) - discuss what you see
    works, what doesn't work (you perhaps want more time together, he
    perhaps wants less).
    
    communicate in as uncharged a way as possible.  
    
    Talk about it.
    
    Discover where each of you actually are, what you wish, need, expect.
    
    Then go from there.
    
    -Jody
    

    
    I'll second the recommendation for Cold Feet (Full title, I believe, is
    Cold Feet: Why Men Won't Commit).  It sounded to me, too, like he's 
    committment-phobic, and afraid of anything that might even be on the 
    road to a more committmed relationship.  This could be partly as a 
    result of his previous marriage, or it could be part of the reason it 
    failed.  But, in any case, reading Cold Feet should help you straighten
    out what's going on and decide what to do about it.  Good luck.
    
    	Sharon
    

     Another good book to look at is "Men Who Cant Love" ... can't think of
    the author's name.  It discusses men who are afraid to commit. 
    Although I didn't quite buy all the reasons for commitmentphobia as put
    forth by the author, there are some great insights into the behaviors
    and numerous examples of these types of relationships from mild to
    extreme.  I think one of the author's names is Julia Sokol (sp?)  
    
    It really highlights some "red flags" to look out for - it's an eye
    opener.

    
    	Re .0 -
    
    	I agree with his ascertation, that you might "calm down". I
    disagree with the assessment that he's incapable of love or intimacy.
    
    	So there you two are, in this "friends" relationship for a couple
    years and then, fairly suddenly, the context of the whole thing
    wants to change to "couple".
    
    	People inherantly resist change - prefer things "the way
    they've always been". (That's one reason why people have so many
    problems) So, suddenly, you're into "couple" - to the point where it's
    *making you crazy* in just getting there - he just needs a time to 
    get this new view on things. As a matter of course he does...of
    course.
    
    	I'd be careful on assessing your relationship based on the number
    of "sad" events vs the number of "happy". A relationship is not
    some controlled process, along the lines of " > 4 times in a
    row being sad about it" means some corrective action must be enacted.
    
    	Quality of relationship is not in the other person's "performance" 
    regarding how well they do in making you happy. If you think this way, 
    you're going to be in for a tough time, because there's *no one* who 
    could meet that criteria - without selling themselves short and out.
    
    	I believe your friend simply needs some time to sort things out
    internally, and get comfortable with the idea that you're now really
    a couple. Like the other basenote where *the woman* needs to sort
    things out and the guy is in waiting, it's simply going to take how long
    it takes, well, period. Basically, you have the choice to change it
    back to "friends", accept things as they are and feeling the way you
    do, or leave it now. Same as the guy in the other note.
    
    	IMHO, it's be a shame and shortsighted if either you or the
    person in the other note chose to leave. I commented to the author
    of the other note off line that, in relationship, there will be
    times that try your patience; sometimes there will be "sad" for
    you, while not necessarily so for the other person. Sometimes things
    will be okay, sometimes things will be reversed. In the long run,
    everything pretty much evens out. Intimacy with another person comes 
    from hanging in there, staying with them while working through these 
    times. Relationship and love, is work!
    
    	My disclaimer here is that I'm talking about times when you
    might be "sad" - or not recieving the emotional support you'd like
    - not times such as "you're being physically and/or emotionally
    abused" by the other person. Then, criteria like perhaps *even once*
    could be used to enact a corrective action, such as leaving the
    relationship immediately.
    
    	Hope this helps,
    
    	Joe
    

Point 1.  No-one can make someone else sad.  We let ourselves be it... 
for a variety of complex reasons I'll grant but that other person is 
only living their life the best way they know how as I guess you are 
yours.

I've been in relationships in which I have been sad, some have nearly given 
me some of what I need in a relationship except for something that after 
thought was too important to me..  then I've been sad and left but it was 
not the other persons fault I was sad.  Like0-wise it's not my fault if they're
sad either - I try to be honest and find it helps..  being honest with 
yourself's the hardest bit at times though... 

Carefully non-blamingly with interest and caring rather than with an 
intention to bargain or justify talking about what you see as a casual 
relationship, what makes a couple and what you both want/need for yourselves 
and trying to see where it does and doesn't match might sound a little 
clinical if you think of it that way but can work..  if nothing else you 
get a little insight into each other... 

    First of all, I want to thank ALL of you for your time and input.  
    I've done a lot of thinking and talking to myself :-) and have come to
    some of the same conclusions you have.  
    
    Now I'm feeling a little anxious due to the fact that I didn't really
    give him an ultimatum, but that I did more or less say that I'd have
    to change things between us if I was feeling more "sad" than "happy". 
    Should I take back this comment from him or leave it?  I didn't tell
    you that the reasons I was feeling sad vs happy was because he'd say
    he's going to call me or whatever, and he wouldn't follow through with
    what he said.  He did this on quite a few occasions.  I told him that
    even a "friend" would call when they say they will.  It's just being
    responsible, unless of course something out of your control happens. 
    I totally understand that.
    
    I know that relationships take patience/work/compromise and I
    definitely feel that I've been doing most of it.  Perhaps because I
    want this so, and as some of you have stated, that he is afraid of
    change.  I'm very willing to "wait" for him to come "around" so to
    speak.  I want him to feel comfortable and know that I'm not going
    anywhere.  I guess I feel that he should already know this since he's
    known me for 2 years.  You know what I mean? 
    
    It is relatively a "new" thing, for both of us, and I suppose I should
    be a little more understanding, but at the same time I don't want to
    go completely the other way and not have him be accountable for his
    actions or lack of.
    
    I want him to be happy, and I want him to be with me because he wants
    to, not because I want him to.  I adore the fact that he lets me be me
    and he's always so happy.  How can anyone not want to be around him? 
    I also know that he doesn't know what he wants.  It would be great if
    we had a crystal ball huh? :-)  
    
    Oh if you could give me the name of the author of "Cold Feet" I would
    very much appreciate it.
    
    Well, thanks again.  *I* know (inside) I'll make the right
    moves/decisions as time goes on.  It's very comforting to know there
    are people like you out there who care enough to take the time to help
    someone you don't even know. :-)
    
    All of you have a wonderful holiday and perhaps I'll write in again and
    let you know how things work out. :-)
    

    The authors of Cold Feet (subtitle: Why Men Don't Commit) are Dr.
    Sonya Rhodes and Dr. Marlin S. Potash.  Barnes and Noble should have
    it, or be able to get you a copy - that's where I got mine.
    
    	Sharon