Conference quark::human_relations-v1

    I'd believe her when she says that she can't do a relationship
    and the other life changes as well.
    
    Think of yourself as a "transitional relationship": between the
    ex and the degree.
    
    While she might feel differently a few years, it'd be self-destructive
    to hang around waiting.
    
    		-John Bishop

    
    	Re anon,
    
    	If you knew something about grief and loss, you'd understand
    her and what's with her a lot better. It's okay that you dont happen
    to - most of us in this society dont know much about it at all,
    because it's not one of American society's - American men in particular -
    strong suits. If you go looking for books on the subject, there's
    not very many of them. Certainly not a lot as compared to material
    available on dysfunctional families - which dysfunctionality over grief
    and loss is just a single component of.
    
    	From what I know of it, which was learned only fairly recently,
    is that your friend just got hit with two *major* losses; her marriage
    and her job. There's actually not a lot left (!) - maybe her health
    and parents/children.
    
    	These losses must be "grieved". Fortunately, she's a woman and
    that is an advantage in this society because it's more socially acceptable
    for women to cry. (I heard recently that it'll likely be the *gay*
    population of men that teach men in general the necessity and 
    appropriateness of this important skill). 
    
    	I dont know if she's been doing this, or if she's been taking
    a tack of "keeping a stiff upper lip". However, her change in
    "attitude" toward you and the relationship you have with her is
    completely consistant with her grief, which necessarily follows
    losses of the magnitude she has experienced.
    
    	My opinion is that if you can understand this and can convey to
    her that you understand *her* in terms of what she's going through
    regarding her losses and her need to grieve them, you'll stand a much
    better chance of maintaining something with her in the long term
    - than if you dont understand it and dont let her know at all.
    
    	What's happening to you and your relationship is "typical",
    as relationships really take it on the chin - HARD - when some tradgedy
    or trauma hits one of the partners. (I cant imagine all the problems
    that will be evoked in people's relationships with what is happening
    around here come December 7th...) It's difficult to maintain one. Being
    open to someone's grief and giving the proper space for their grieving
    process (which can last about a year) is not a trivial extension
    of one's self. It takes a lot of love...
    
    	In your case, it is a perfectly viable option to just bail out.
    Only you can decide if, at this point, it is worth your time and
    expense to stick with it and stand by her as she goes through what
    she needs to go through. It'll be a significant comittment on your
    part, which may indeed lead to a more significant comittment at
    some later point ;') Or, you can go off and find someone else who
    doesnt have these problems...for the moment.
    
    	I say that because the experience of grief over loss is 
    *inevitable* in living life. Anyone who's alive enough to feel sad
    when their father dies, hurt that they got picked for "transition"
    or that their relationship that they once believed in utterly failed
    will experience grief over loss. There are probably people who cant
    deal with their own grief let alone anyone else's and they might
    just go from relationship to relationship over the course of years
    as their partner's grief over loss upsets each one to the breaking
    point.
    
    	I wouldnt think you or anyone, would want to be one of those.
    
    	Joe

    re:.0
    
    Cut your losses and get out with your sanity.
    
    Women who run hot then cold usually have some serious emotional
    issues to work out before they stabilize.

    Not necessarily Z...
    
    Dear Anon,
    
    I went through the same thing.  Anyone who even came close to looking
    like they wanted a serious relationship made me turn to ice.  I was NOT
    ready for one.  Then along came a guy who let ME set the pace.  If I
    wanted to see him, he was there.  If I wanted him to stay over, he
    stayed over, if I wanted to be alone, he let me be alone...etc. etc.
    
    To make a long story short he let me call the shots and it made me feel
    alot better.  The ending?  It's a happy one (hopefully ;-)) - he
    proposed to me last Friday....and I said yes. 
    
    Give her time to deal with it all and take it slow...if she's worth
    it, then she's worth waiting for.
    
    FWIW,
    
    Lynne
    

    
    
    Hey I think you have to step back and read what you just wrote.
    This woman has stated to you that at this moment in time she
    does not want to give 100% to a relationship.  LISTEN TO WHAT
    SHE IS SAYING!!!!!!  She is giving you a huge clue!!!  
    
    She is telling you point blank that she intends on working towards
    being solely financially able to support herself.  This is something
    that men are expected to do, but when a woman chooses this same
    path for herself, she is often met with resistance.  I say good
    luck to her.  She sounds like a woman who has got her head together
    and knows what she wants/needs to do for herself to make her happy.
    
    Also, by her telling you that she, at this moment in time, does
    not feel comfortable by giving 100% to a relationship, is telling
    you that she needs time to let her heart heal from her divorce
    and she needs to let that happen.  She is also telling you that
    she needs to direct her focus and energies towards working her
    goal of financial independance.  
    
    This does not mean that she will not eventually come to a time where
    she is ready to give 100% to a relationship.  It's just not at
    this present moment in time.  Please do yourself a big favor and
    listen to what she is saying.  From what you wrote, she is already
    pulling back on her energies with respect her relationship to you.
    This will most likely continue until she is once again comfortable
    to let you back in.  Which sounds like it might take some time.
    
    What you need to do now is decide if the amount of energy she
    is giving towards you and the relationship at this moment in time
    is acceptable to you.  Are you willing to only have a part of
    her?  Think of the role you have already played in her life.
    Are you willing to invest more time even though you know of
    the resistance she is going to give you?  Is your life that
    long that you can hang waiting for someone to live their own
    life?  Do you want to be put on hold?  Only you can decide!
    
    Michele

    Sounds to me like she's being frank about how she feels and what she
    wants to achieve.  
    
    If you've questions, you should take the same type of attitude.
    
    "What do you mean when you say you can't give 100%  do you mean... 
    you aren't interested in the possibilities of a relationship with me?
    or, do you mean, you can't put the amount of time a couple share
    together into a relationship because of other things in your life?
    
    EXPLAIN what you want so I can decide where I'm at and what to do about
    it.
    
    Then, LISTEN to her words, amazingly when we get wrapped up in someone, 
    we try to look for meanings in the words they use, as men, we find that 
    the things they say, don't mean what we want them to, so we try to FIND
    the meanings we want.  It took me a long time to stop doing it, and
    learn to accredit women with the ability to say what they MEAN.  
    
    Take what she says to heart, and decide from there what you should do,
    what you are capable of doing, and what you need to do for yourself.  
    
    If you have the strength to stand by her while she works things out to
    her satisfaction, then go for it.  If not, then get out, but keep in
    mind something, there are no magic spells, relationships don't 'just
    happen' you need to put in time and patience, understanding and faith. 
    When the relationship takes a turn along these lines, you can say
    "Okay, I understand, how can I help?" and then do what will work best
    for her. or "Okay, I understand, ummm call me when you get your life
    straightened out" suspecting that she never will, probably won't.  
    It's all up to you, and deserves some self examination to decide what 
    you want to do, as well as some good solid questions as to what she
    is doing and wants to do.
    
    Skip
    
    

    Perhaps what's on the mind of .0 is whether or not he's getting the
    whole story? 
    
    I know that when I was in one relationship and was told, on a Monday,
    that "tonight is the only night this week I can see you," I thought: 
    
    Is she losing interest in me? (she had been aloof) 
    
    while at the same time thinking...
    
    Am I demanding too much to see her more than once a week in a
    relationship? Am I being insecure?  
    
    I eventually found out that she was losing interest in me, not because
    I was being too demanding, she was just losing interest. It just didn't
    mean that much to her any more to see me as much. What she was doing
    was putting me on hold until she wanted/needed me. In the past, even
    though she was just as busy, she'd always make time for me and it was
    never a problem. 
    
    Plus, the *way* she told me that Monday was the only night she could
    see me - a tad on the cool side. 
    
    I think it's natural for people to want to read between the lines when
    they hear about the reasons given for a relationship changing. 
    
    I would have a heart-to-heart talk with her about how you feel and ask
    her if she is losing interest in you. I know *I'd* want to know that
    first before going off and deciding whether the wait is worth it. 
    And tell her you need to know how she feels about you - talk it 
    through and get some answers. Then you can choose a direction.
    
    (Personally, I tend to go along with Mike; I don't like "hot and cold" 
    relationships.)
    
    One more thing that I don't quite understand is why is she deciding
    *now* that she needs time to heal? I mean, it's her choice, but it 
    does leave you high and dry, doesn't it?   

    
    She is taking care of her needs by speaking them to you.
    
    You do have several choices.  But you need to choose based on YOUR
    needs.  From your basenote, it seems like you feel your needs are not
    being met by the lack of romance, romance may be important to you.
    
    If she is being honest, you need to be honest also about how it would
    feel to be in a relationship like this, particularly if she honestly
    cannot express if or when it would change back to a romantic or
    deepening interest.
    
    For whatever reason she cannot "afford" to be in both a relationship
    and career-goal-college-education simultaneously.  It sounds to me like
    her decision is *NOT* about whether or not she cares about you, it's
    *NOT* about whether or not you're good enough, lovable, enjoyable, or
    long-term relationship material.  It sounds like her decision is
    based on what she feels she can handle right now.
    
    -Jody
     

    I am about a year down the road in a similar situation.  After the
    initial mental and emotional thrashing of trying to understand
    the whys and wherefores, I finally made the decision to do two
    things.  The first was to take care of my needs.  Went out and
    did stuff with other women friends.  The second was to decide
    that I would not, could not walk away.  That this woman is
    important enough to spend the time and energy being "there"
    providing encouragement and whatever help I can.  Frankly, I'm
    not sure what I'm doing but it feels right.  And somehow it
    works.  We are something more than friends, something less than
    lovers.  Maybe in a year or few things will change.  Meanwhile,
    I spend my energy on other women friends and fun stuff.  I
    may wind up doing something different with someone else eventually.
    But for now, I think that I am making a difference for someone very
    important to me.  But it ain't easy, and my compromise may not work
    for anyone else.  At the very least, I have a best friend and those
    are priceless.
    
    Good luck.

   I have been reading everyone's reply's, but don't feel the community
   totally understands what's happening here. I can understand anyone being
   hurt and wanting to be careful in any future relationships. I can also
   undertand that a person needs to take care of themselves first, in that
   they need to know who they are and where their going. I knew she wanted
   to get into school and have a career. The reasoning made sense, she had
   a f/t job, but hated it so much that she wanted to be laid off. The fact
   that her ex was basicly a poor husband and father also made sense. The
   point that I am getting to, is that this "revelation" of working on a
   career vs a relationship only came after I was tired of the lack of
   affection and pressed for an answer.

   In the past couple of weeks she even suggested we spend  some time alone
   in her sister's house, who was on vacation. At times, if we haven't seen
   each other she'll say something like "I've missed you so much" . I guess
   what I am saying is that I'm hurt mainly because she let this
   relationship start and then, if you will, lowered the boom, and then
   only after I pressed her did she tell what she was feeling. I have never
   had to deal with such a situation. I would like to  understand her
   better, but how can I if she doesn't let me into her heart? 

    All of the tasks that this woman is trying to be successfull at
    take an incredible total amount of energy and time.  A full-time
    job, school, AND being the single mother add up to about 30 hours
    a day spent on everything.  Most days there just probably isn't
    anything left for a "relationship."  We all want to be sucessfull
    at all things in our life so it can be very hard to admit to
    oneself, much less people we care about, that we have to give up
    something.  You can't put your kids on hold.  Every day that you
    defer school it gets harder.  And you have to pay the bills.  That
    leaves the adults around you as the ones who have to be expected to
    understand why you seem to have become a recluse.  The stress
    involved in all of this puts the person in the position of pushing
    away any influences that look like they bring more stress.
    
    You can't understand.  You can only be understanding and supportive
    if you are able to.  Leave the doors open but take care of yourself.

    
    
    From what I can summize from your last note, you are upset
    with the fact that the relationship cooled off and she didnt
    tell you why until you asked.  Is this correct?  
    
    
    If it is correct, then what really is the problem?  Clearly
    one gets hurt by loosing something they once had.  Yet she
    has given you an explanation as to why this is happening.
    
    If you came into her life while she was in the midst of 
    going through a divorce, the purpose you served was to help
    her through it.  Now that the divorce is over and she is
    moving on with her life, she is telling you that you are
    no longer a priority.  Sounds rather harsh, but that's what
    usually happens.  
    
    If each of us really take a look at all of the relationship
    we have had with others, not necessarily including just the
    love relationship, you can see a purpose to each of them.
    To me it seems that you have already served your purpose
    in this one and it might be time to move on.
    
    Michele

    
    My guess as to why she didn't tell you what was going on sooner might
    be that she
    
    1.  didn't know, because she hadn't really looked at it
    2.  didn't want to hurt your feelings because she cares
    3.  didn't want to look at it herself, it hurt her also
    
    but I could be wrong
    
    -Jody