| T.R | Title | User | Personal
Name | Date | Lines |
|---|
| 1307.1 | Some insight from cartoon characters... | QUIVER::STEFANI | No sleep 'til Brooklyn | Mon Sep 28 1992 19:01 | 5 |
| Woody Woodpecker told me that sometimes people don't appreciate something
until it's gone. Bugs Bunny agreed and recommended that you chalk it up
for experience, move on, and try not to make the same mistake twice.
- Larry
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| 1307.2 | | BENONI::SWALKER | | Mon Sep 28 1992 19:13 | 32 |
|
First off, I should state I haven't been there. But I know some people
who have, and the stories all seem to have a common theme. Basically,
to win Scarlett back, Rhett needs to prove to Scarlet that he has
changed his attitude and is willing to be a different person the second
time around. And he needs to be very persistent and sure of what he
wants.
In other words, if you would never have sent flowers before, send
flowers, preferably where others can see them (I know of one couple
where he sent her flowers at work for months before her coworkers
finally convinced her she should at least consider thanking him in
person). If you never expressed your emotions before, send a love poem
written from the heart. If she loves opera and you always refused to
go, send one opera ticket "from a secret admirer", and sit in the
adjoining seat. If you would never do anything outrageous for her,
consider outrageous things, such as serenading her in costume. In
other words, if you hadn't been willing to be vulnerable or committed
before, you now get to prove you're willing to be vulnerable and
committed, and you get to do it semi-publicly. Brace yourself for a
lot of rejection, though... you probably won't succeed on the first
try. But if you manage to be persistent and determined without being
obnoxious, she'll probably be flattered.
One thing you didn't mention, however, is whether Scarlett is seeing
someone else. If she is, give it up and keep your distance until they
break up. And, if all else fails, chock it all up to experience and
take some time to heal and grow. And next time, when you get involved
with Barbie or Skipper, don't make the same mistake. Good luck!
Sharon
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| 1307.3 | Come hither, darling...Run Away! | BSS::VANFLEET | Que bummer! | Mon Sep 28 1992 19:20 | 7 |
| Sounds to me like maybe Rhett has just a teeny problem with intimacy.
If I were Scarlett I'd have real doubts about whether Rhett could
maintain a relationship unless he'd fixed that basic problem within
himself. It might be something Rhett shoudl look into with a competent
therapist.
Nanci
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| 1307.4 | | MCIS5::WOOLNER | Your dinner is in the supermarket | Mon Sep 28 1992 19:37 | 10 |
| Assuming Scarlett has been wanting commitment, I'd guess that Scarlett
finally realized she didn't want to be Rhett's security object any
more. Rhett saying "I didn't know how much I'd miss you" doesn't
indicate that he's ready to commit (sounds more like "I still need my
blanky").
If he really is ready to commit, then maybe the serenading-in-costume
would prove it. But I wouldn't buy stock in the Rhett-&-Scarlett Co.
Leslie
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| 1307.5 | | HDLITE::ZARLENGA | Michael Zarlenga, Alpha P/PEG | Mon Sep 28 1992 22:44 | 14 |
| re:.0
Happens to me about twice a year.
It's not that I can't commit, it's just that I can't commit. ;')
Right now you probably want her because you can't have her.
What you need to do is find someone who looks like her, take her out,
and then dump her. ;') That'll help you get over her. (words of wisdom
from Say Anything).
Actually, all it really takes is to find someone else. But do yourself
a favor and skip the Thelma and Louise types.
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| 1307.6 | | ELESYS::JASNIEWSKI | Why not ask why? | Tue Sep 29 1992 12:02 | 37 |
|
Nanci in .3 is right on the money...
Rhett isnt going to benefit from a simple cookbook solution; follow
steps 1, 2, and 3 - and all will be well.
Any behavorial pattern which, in the long term, sustains someone's
pain, or misery, or loneliness, or their tendancy to go from
relationship to relationship to relationship isnt such a trivial matter
that their "buying flowers" or "sending a card" will fix it - this time.
People do this, sometimes, because of very deep seated emotional
issues they have which, in the experience of their lives so far,
just never have had the chance to get resolved.
The pattern is easy to see in .0. The initial interest, then once
secured, the gradual tapering off until some irreconcilable damage is
done, then comes the denial, and finially, the pain of loss.
A suggestion like "be more attentive next time" isnt going to help
someone understand that the initial interest was the beginning of
a long process for that someone to get to feel their pain - of loss!
Denial, comes in the form of dating the other women, wondering "what
happened" and not understanding that, and a response of "that's
a load of horse sh*t" to a suggestion that what's happening here
may be just a bit deeper than "a lack of skill" with how to treat
someone nice, while in a relationship.
I've done it and have gotten to feel my pain, upon my realization
that "it's over". I've seen others do it to me, and have wondered
why did they have to do that, why do they need to be in
_that_much_pain_ (when everything was so wonderful) as a result.
It's because I and they, really had that much pain.
Joe
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| 1307.7 | | XCUSME::HOGGE | I am the King of Nothing | Tue Sep 29 1992 13:05 | 14 |
| Actually, I was there once, long ago, and learned. To be honest,
from my point of view, .1 had the best advice. (Who said cartoons
could rot your brains?)
You move on, knowing that you learned a valuable lesson, keep your
eyes open next time around, and hope for the best.
Sometimes, you get lucky, and actually figure out what you need to
give/take to be happy in a relationship and start doing it.
Until then, you blunder along, fall in, fall out, and hope you don't
just fall on your head.
Skip
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| 1307.8 | Reply from anonymous author of base note | QUARK::MODERATOR | | Tue Sep 29 1992 13:32 | 33 |
| Thanks to all of you who took the time to reply. This
really helps 'cause Rhett is hurting. He feels sad over his
loss and guilty over his behavior.
Re: .1 You're right Larry, Rhett sure didn't appreciate what he
had 'til it was gone - not just the woman but also the
opportunity to get close to someone.
Re: .2 & .4 Thanks, Sharon and Leslie. While it may be over,
Rhett has sent letters and flowers and plans on
sending more. Scarlet reluctantly agreed to talk with
Rhett this past weekend. Rhett tried to explain his
fear of commitment, told her how he feels now, and offered
a commitment. Scarlet said she needed time to think and
for him to get on with his life. She says she isn't
seeing anyone new yet but may. Rhett feels like he
botched up the relationship and figures it would be
another mistake if he didn't make every possible last
ditch effort.
Re: .3 & .6 Rhett is genuinely confused about how out of
touch he was with his feelings or how defensive he
was. Rhett has had two long term relationships in
the past but this one seemed to have the most
potential compatibility. Rhett is going to see
a counselor to try to understand more about this.
Thanks, Nanci and Joe.
Re: .6 You may be right, Mike. Right now Rhett feels like
he's got a lot of moping to get through. He feels
like he's got to learn from this in case another
chance comes along.
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| 1307.9 | | MCIS5::WOOLNER | Your dinner is in the supermarket | Tue Sep 29 1992 14:19 | 14 |
| .4> ...But I wouldn't buy stock in the Rhett-&-Scarlett Co.
.8> Rhett is genuinely confused about how out of
touch he was with his feelings or how defensive he
was. Rhett has had two long term relationships in
the past but this one seemed to have the most
potential compatibility. Rhett is going to see
a counselor to try to understand more about this.
After this promising news, maybe I would go for a couple of shares! It
had been unclear to me whether his expectations for the relationship
had changed; looks like they have.
Leslie
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| 1307.10 | Anonymous reply | QUARK::MODERATOR | | Tue Sep 29 1992 19:18 | 215 |
| The following reply has been contributed by a member of our community
who wishes to remain anonymous. If you wish to contact the author by
mail, please send your message to QUARK::MODERATOR, specifying the
conference name and note number. Your message will be forwarded with
your name attached unless you request otherwise.
Steve
Well 'Rhett', I think I could have written a VERY, VERY, similar story
a little more than three years ago. The same thing happened to me so I
have a good idea how you are feeling right now. I'll give you a summary
of what happened to me and perhaps by the time I type it out, my
thoughts may become organized enough to make a few suggestions.
George and Martha met a little over five years ago. Martha was recently
divorced and George was separated and in the process of getting a
divorce. They 'fell in love' and it was a fantastic relationship for
the first 6 months or so. They could talk about anything and everything
- something that George never experienced before. As the relationship
continued George began to feel a little uneasy - things were getting
too close and feeling a little pressure from Martha to commit. He
started to put some emotional distance between himself and Martha.
George came out of a marriage that lasted about a dozen years - a
marriage he was unhappy with after about two weeks even though he had
dated Liz for about five years before they got married. George felt
very, very trapped in his marriage. George was also not good at
expressing his feelings, was fearful of conflict, took wedding vows
seriously, worried about what everyone else would think if he and Liz
got divorced (can you say co-dependednt?). Liz had hinted to George
about getting married a number of times and had promised that things
would be great after they got married. George finally gave in and asked
Liz to marry him. Things got worse - much worse. Since George and Liz
were poor communicators, feelings seldom got discussed, walls went up
and they lived more like brother and sister than husband and wife.
Finally, many years later, after two months of almost no talking Liz
asked George "What's wrong?" to which George replied "Our
marriage."........ Oooops! It just came out unexpected, but he had it
with the marriage - at that point he wanted out at any cost. The pain
of staying in it was greater than the fear of the unknown by that time.
George and Liz got divorced about 18 months after they separated.
When Martha started dropping hints about making the relationship more
committed, George started to back off. He loved Martha but George felt
a lot more comfortable if they just kept things as they were. What
George didn't realize at the time is he was reacting to Liz dropping
hints about a more committed relationship, after all, that marriage was
very painful for him. For a while Martha tried everything to stir up
George's interest in her but George felt it as pressure of a commitment
and backed away further. Finally Martha decided to end it, to which
George reluctantly agreed. George felt freedom again - but also a sense
of loss. Martha was the first woman he dated after the marriage so
George did wonder a little what other women were like. Martha was very
nice but George had little to compare it to. This happened after they
had dated for a year and a half.
Both George and Martha dated someone new but George and Martha kept in
contact with each other from time to time. This was unusual for Martha
since she had never maintained contact with an ex-boyfriend once she
broke up with them. George really liked his new girlfriend, Jill, but
did think of Martha from time to time and about 9-12 months later
decided 'Martha was the one'. George told Jill he loved Martha (that
went over real well with Jill) and was going to get Martha back. I will
spare you the details of what George did but he was very OBSESSED with
Martha. George knew he was acting CRAZY but he couldn't help it. He
wanted to be with Martha *SO* much, Heck he wanted to MARRY her....like
RIGHT NOW! George called Martha but Martha said she was happy in her
present relationship with Bruce and told George that he was a nice
catch, had a LOT of things going for him and that a lot of women would
be happy to date him. George was CRUSHED. He couldn't think about
anyone (or for that matter ANYTHING!) but Martha. Martha was aware that
George was a wee bit 'over the edge' and this scared Martha a little.
Martha asked George not to call her and that she would call him in a
month or two.
Five or six weeks later Martha calls and informs George that she has
broken up with her boyfriend and need a couple more weeks to herself.
George feels better but still depressed that Martha didn't want to see
him right away. Two weeks later George and Martha have lunch together.
Things go very slowly this time, casual dating for a couple of months.
Then George gets a chance to go to Europe on business and asks Martha
to come along (at George's expense) Martha decides to go on the trip.
George takes Martha out to a French restaurant which he had told her
all about two years ago (when they dated the first time). Martha says
"I'm scared you are going to ask me to marry you." Well, that wasn't on
George's mind. By that time he had calmed down enough that he wasn't
about to do that. The relationship is different from the first one. A
little more down to earth then the first time. Although neither one of
them had any children or cared to have any, they had both admitted that
*if* they were to have kids it would be with each other. Martha
admitted that even when she was dating her ex-boyfriend she often
thought about George and that it was hard for her to imagine growing
old with anyone else. George and Martha continue to date for a little
less than a year when a housemate of George's moves out. Martha begins
to hint to George about moving in with him and guess what.... You got
it, George feels uneasy again. About 6 months later things were about
where they were the first time they broke up so they split up again!
George dated several women after this breakup, including his
ex-girlfirend Jill.
Six months after the breakup George has another business trip. This
time to the Far East and he asked Martha if she would like to go and
stop off at an island paradise on the way back. George asked Martha not
because he wanted to 'get back together with her'. He asked her because
he knew that is was very unlikely that Martha would ever see that part
of the world any other way. George knew that Martha is interested in
different cultures, foods and travel to far away lands. Besides, he
just wanted to do something nice for her. Martha accepted George's
offer. They had a great time together and even though they shared the
same hotel rooms for two weeks, there was never anything physical
between them. After they got back, about this time last year, Martha
and George went out to a few concerts and dinners together and enjoyed
the time spent together. Martha told George that the trip did a lot to
boost her self esteem - that there were several days while in the Far
East when Martha paced around the hotel room while George was at work,
angry at herself because she was scared to explore a strange land on
her own. But Martha forced herself to do it and in the process learned
something about herself.
They gradually saw less and less of each other but did exchange small
gifts at Christmas time. George liked the gift from Martha but he never
told her until several months later that the best Christmas present was
to hear her say how the trip to the Far East helped Martha to build her
self confidence. To hear Martha say that was worth the whole trip to
George.
Martha and George continue to talk to each other a couple times a
month. Early this year when George was in the hospital for a night,
Martha came to see him and brought George reading material and visited
with him for several hours. It meant a lot to George that she would
take time out of her busy schedule to visit a sick friend. Once in a
while Martha and George talk about their relationship with each other.
Martha says she will NEVER take George back because of the past
experiences but wants to remain good friends.
George went on to date a number of other women. It's not clear if
Martha dated other men or not. At the present time George is seeing
Joyce, who like Martha, Jill, and a few other women he has dated, has
become a close and important friend to George. George has done a lot of
work on himself over the past three years and has figured out a lot
about himself. He learned to talk about his feelings and how to express
them. He learned that a lot of his reactions to issues that come up in
relationships are/were due to the way he was brought up as a child and
his marriage to Liz. Changing those patterns to something more healthy
has, and continues to be, a painful experience for George and he has
made a lot of progress. This is something which he will work hard on
for the rest of his life. His relationship with Joyce is a close one
and healthier than ones he has had before.
Recently Martha called George as said she really enjoyed the stop they
made at the island paradise a year ago. There were good package deals
to this island and Martha wondered if George would like to go with her.
George had a few days to think it over and mentioned it to Joyce. Much
to his surprise Joyce said "Go for it!". Although George cares very
much about Joyce, he had a fond place in his heart for Martha as well
and would like to take this trip with her. Joyce knows that George
likes to travel, are not in a committed relationship, Joyce HATES to
fly and already knew the history of the relationship between George and
Martha. So in about a month George and Martha will be together again as
travel companions.
So what does this all mean? and how might it apply to Rhett?
It's taken a long time for George to get to where he is - time that he
wishes that time could have been spent in a loving, rewarding
relationship with one special person. But if time is a thief, it leaves
something in exchange - experience. In his experience he has learned a
lot from Martha, Jill, Joyce and others. He found that relationships
turn into hard work after a short time and that the most rewarding
relationships have been the ones that were the hardest work, had most
struggle, fears, tears and not to mention, joy as well. George has
realized that deep down inside we are all alone - it is a private
monster that sooner or later we all have to deal with and that the most
important relationship is the one he has with himself.
Each and every relationship has been a gift to George. Martha's gift
was to get George in touch with his feelings and to express them openly
and honestly - even when it hurt to do so. Jill's gift was to teach
George what it means to love someone - to accept someone for the very
person that they are and how to love yourself. With Joyce, it may be
too early to be sure but it feels like the gift is "the light of the
spirit". Other women have contributed their gifts as well - they have
all touched his life in important ways.
Rhett, my suggestion would be open and honest with Scarlet about how
you feel. Be aware that the risk is VERY high that a relationship with
her will turn out the same way the second time around unless you make
some serious changes that WILL BE PAINFUL to make! The no pain, no gain
rule applies to relationships as well. If there is love between you and
Scarlet your relationship with her will continue in one form or
another. I still love Martha. I still love Jill. I have a 'connection'
with a number of other women I've dated that I can't really call love,
but there is a 'bond' there and they are all, to this day, considered
to be close friends. As I spend more time with Joyce I am sure that in
time I will grow to love her as well.
I would give Scarlet space. It will be very hard for you to do but I
would suggest that you hold back on talking 'commitment' with her, I
suspect that may scare her a little and feel too much like a 'rebound'.
Look at those other relationships you had. What happened when things
were getting close to the commitment stage? I just looked at the
replies and see you are talking to her again - That's good. Good luck
to you.
For what it's worth,
George [not my real name ;-) ]
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| 1307.11 | Reply from anonymous author of base note | QUARK::MODERATOR | | Fri Oct 23 1992 19:55 | 43 |
| Re: .10 Thanks for the telling Rhett your story. Rhett found
it moving and so close to his own experiences that he
didn't quite know how to respond to it. He felt a
little overwhelmed. He also felt gratitude for your taking
the time and effort. Without the pain of loneliness
the joy of togetherness wouldn't be as strong.
Rhett has been discussing his relationship with Scarlet
with his counselor. The counselor has enabled Rhett to see
how past experiences have caused him to become very defensive
of his feelings, very careful to avoid sharing much of himself.
The counselor has also helped Rhett to see that both Scarlet
and he avoided intimacies and that it was not his actions
alone. In important ways the relationship was never that
close. The counselor encouraged Rhett to persist in asking
Scarlet for feedback on how she perceived him in the
relationship and her own feelings about it. The purpose of
this to be understanding not reunion.
Without any real hope of success, Rhett has sent
flowers and written letters to Scarlett. He's told her
some of what he has learned through counseling. She
did not respond.
Rhett mustered his courage enough to call and ask
Scarlett. She told him some things that surprised him
about how she saw him. For example, she said he seemed
very unenthused about his career and that she needed someone
who worked to be as successful as possible. While Rhett
sees this as a difference between them, he also sees that
his work was one of the important things in his life that
he didn't talk about with her. She also told him that
often wasn't herself in the relationship, acting more
to please him. She said that she doesn't understand why.
She says that she feels the relationship would have
worked by now if it was ever going to work. She said she
will meet him for coffee next week and tell him more.
Rhett relished this little bit of contact with Scarlet
but he was also saddened. She spoke as though she had
totally accepted the end of the relationship and put
it behind her, as though it were gone with the wind.
|
| 1307.12 | Anonymous reply from "George" (1307.10) | QUARK::MODERATOR | | Mon Oct 26 1992 15:42 | 64 |
| Hi Rhett, This is George (1307.10). Thank you for the update. I am sure
that there are many men (and women) who are in a situation similar to
our own. As I mentioned before, if there is any amount of caring/true
friendship/love between you and Scarlet then I believe that the two of
you will remain in each others lives to some degree for years to come.
Perhaps you will become seriously involved with her again, and perhaps
you will not, but if the two of you remain friends like Martha and I
have, it is a wonderful gift.
Change takes time. You will become better at sharing yourself with
others if you continue to work at it but it will take months or years
to get to the point where it becomes part of your nature. It took
George a long time to REALLY get to the point where he now knows that
feelings are not right or wrong .... they are FEELINGS... they tell me
what is going on with me this very minute. I need to pay attention to
them and express them (appropriately) to others. Feelings can be
'healthy' or 'unhealthy' but never right or wrong ... IMHO.
Rhett, there is no way that I can really know exactly what your
situation with Scarlet is or just how close it is to my situation with
Martha. It does seem to be very similar to where things were between
Martha and me three years ago. I'd suggest (and it is only a
suggestion) that you not send/give Scarlet flowers. If you want to
write, that's OK as long as Scarlet hasn't asked you to stop. If/when
you do write to her, keep the focus on yourself as much as you can -
let the letter be about you and who you are instead of her and who she
is. Again, just a suggestion.
I'd take a hard look at her statement that she "NEEDS" someone who
works to be as "SUCCESSFUL AS POSSIBLE" and "wasn't herself", "acting
more to please you". These are not very healthy statements although the
last two are significant in that she has the self-awareness to realize
what she was doing. That's good. It sounds like Scarlet may be looking
for her own security and happiness to come from someone else rather
than from within herself when she makes statements like the first one
above. That would be a lot of responsibility for any person to take
on.... the security and happiness of another person. Just be aware that
may be what Scarlets' comment translates to.
The fact that Scarlet is willing to meet with you and tell you more is
a very positive sign. It is an indication that she is willing to give
you some of her time and share some of her thoughts with you. She
probably would not do this if you did not mean SOMETHING to her. If you
still have some sort of contact with her, you still have a relationship
with her - although it is no longer romantic. When you see her.... just
be her friend.
As for George, Martha and I will be on the island paradise in a few
weeks. Martha wanted to postpone it until early next year because she
recently started to date someone new and was very concerned how a trip
with an ex-boyfirend would affect her new relationship. She later
changed her mind back and we are going by the original schedule. George
found himself in the same boat quite by accident. He and Joyce have not
spent much time together and never became much more that just friends
anyway. Several weeks ago George met Susan and they have been spending
a fair amount of their free time together. It wasn't easy to tell Susan
about the trip with Martha but it has been accepted as a commitment
that was made before we started to date.
Good luck Rhett and as a well known French song goes "Whatever will be,
will be".
George
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