Conference quark::human_relations-v1

    To make the scenario a little more realistic to US.
    
    Men. You have been married for 12 years. You worked for DEC up until
    last year. Your wife works elsewhere, making $40,000. You live in a
    economically depressed area right now, and it's hard to find work.
    Given the same circumstances as the basenote implies, would you believe
    it customary for the wife to pay alimony? What amount would you
    consider fair?

I live in New Hampshire.

Alimony doesn't exist here.

I'm not sure why it should exist anywhere, for anyone.

I have yet to see convincing arguments.

-Jack

    Tell him to get a job, I think the whole thing is rediculus and the
    amount is phemominally rediculous. He looks healthy, he is smart, so he
    better get out the want ads and start looking and let Joan continue on
    with her life.
    
    Lynne ;-)

    
    
    
    re  .3       but I could say that about my ex-wife.
    
    She hasn't worked for 12 years {ex-deccie}...Oh yeah, 6 years ago she
    worked 6 hours at a rest home and quit when she was told to mop a
    floor.
    
    MEanwhile I pay 285.00 A WEEK to her because I have 2 kids.  She lives
    in our house which has about 90k equity.  A 25k loan to my folks is
    deferred until my kids are 18, {my dad has 1 lung left which is
    cancerous}...The money will go to their estate for sure...so they are
    paying too.
    
    her problem? not a problem, a goal.  To have me support her and the
    kids as long as I can.  We have been apart for 2 years and she has not
    done step one for a job.  The state doesn't care so far.  it IS a
    womans world.  I have heard of feminist mags that tell women to go to
    mass for a divorce, {not verbatum}, because the woman comes out on top.
    
    Oh yeah and the 11k lawyer bill so far, {to fight the molestation
    charge}.  Now off to court 7/2 to fight for summer visits....
    
    Sorry to get off the subject, but I have seen the prejudice in
    the court system.

re: .4

>    MEanwhile I pay 285.00 A WEEK to her because I have 2 kids.

Please clarify for us, if you will - is that "child support" or "alimony"?

-Jack

    oops, sorry that is child support.
    
    guess I should have written the note during the year that I was paying
    365.00 a week, which was 265 child support and 100. alimony.
    
    Sorry

re: .6

I don't mean to pry, but since you've been open on this so far -
   1) Would we be correct in assuming that the $100 per week you paid
      in alimony for a year was court ordered?
   2) Were there circumstances other than your ex- remarrying which allowed
      the court to terminate the order after the year?

Thanks,
-Jack

    prior to the alimony order I was paying the tune of 400. per week
    VOLUNTARILY.  I was paying all of the bills, {mtg,ins,tax,her car loan+
    ins,elec,tel} and giving her approx 140 per week cash for expenses.
    when I went to court the 365 was set as payment.
    
    alimony was cut during the final divorce proceedings.  She was shooting
    for alimony till my son was in school!  {2 more years}.  The alimony
    was cut because she had no substancial evidence of seeking a job other
    than getting her daycare licence, but she never advertised.
    
    Oh yeah, in the middle of this, I agreeded to sign an insurance check
    for 1,300 for rug damages due to a bad water heater...Guess what, one
    year later, no rugs...Oh but she has to put new rugs in when the kids
    are 18 {in 14 years}...not a bad deal eh?
    
    So now, she is down to approx 1,100 per month net, which is child
    support, but my kids have not much more than the basics.  I cannot
    force an audit of the money.....I buy my kids clothes and they get
    yelled at for wearing them.  I was reported for kidnapping once
    because I told her the kids would decide where they were going during
    a visit, and I was back 8 min late...Sorry for leaking my stuff here
    but in the last couple of years i have learned quite abit.  I've been
    fighting for every inch....I smell a custody battle.
    
    Oh yeah, BTW, both of my kids are in counseling {CMHC}, and their
    allowance for counseling is almost up.  I have agreed to pay 1/2
    of their visits, but she is crying poverty...I guess her perm and
    perscriptions are more important....And I'm expected to hold a
    full time job and be mr perfect through all this!  Well, I think
    I'm surprising "the authorities".

    I can see supporting children up to a certain age, but not a fully
    healthy capable of working human. Once both decide of a divorce it
    should be "splitville" on both parts, which means both should live
    their own life. If I ever got split up, I would not expect my husband
    to still support me, I would do it myself!!
    
    
    Lynne

    .2 Wrong! Alimony is called Maintence in N.H. and it does so exist! 

    Insofar as collecting? Without a doubt. If we all are to be treated as
    fair and as equals. Why not! In fact I know of a man who is collecting
    Maintence from his ex. He works a full time job, has custody, the
    marital home, and gets both child support and some maintence. 

    Many men have help, fostered, and paid for their ex's carriers. Many
    men have footed college bills for the former wife to make a better
    living. Many Men have also paid the ex as an after or a post fix
    to pay for college for them to attend. Nights, days, what ever.
    I know of one woman who is attending college and it isn't footed
    buy the generous woman/wymin support groups out there. 

    I have offered, while we were married, my ex to attend as I was
    attending. I suggested it many times. But she didn't want to.
    Such is life, marriage is a team play? 

    I also know a man who remarried his a second time. He is a sales man,
    she <second wife> owns a beauty parlor. They are filing bankruptcy.
    The alimony and child support to his ex cuts sooo deep that he
    is working for nothing except to support his first wife, the
    ex's house, and the ex's beaus who romp in and out. The ex has no
    intentions of working, and is very capable of. And that is 
    life in the divorce wars.

    If two people consent to a divorce, why should one support the other.
    In my book that is not right, the only reason would be the children
    which is a common bond. But what happens if you want to start a new
    life with a new person, how can you do it if you are still supporting
    the other?

    re .11
    
    the answer is simple....you cannot, or it is very difficult.
    
    I got rejected for a 60k mtg a couple of weeks ago.  Seems my child
    support threw my debt/earning ratio out of the park.  I was told that
    I may get approved in 14 years UNLESS i can put down 1/3 of the
    purchase price of the house.  They cannot consider my house as equity
    even though I only owe 38k on a 130k appraised house, because her name
    is on the deed also.  FYI, the mtg+tax on that 60k would be about 55.00
    more a month than I presently pay for rent.  So I have to continue to
    try and provide the best environment for my children in a worcester
    3-decker apt, though when they go home to mum, they enjoy an 8 room
    house on 2 acres with a brook in the country that i am SOLELY paying.
    
    One more kicker.  The courts denied me periodic inspections of the
    house to ensure it wasn't going downhill.  So by the time that my
    kids are 18, it is possible that the house could be a termite infested
    trap by then.  I have gotten a peek at why some dads just throw in the
    towel.  I love my kids too much to do that though.  There may be some
    hope though.  I may have caught her fraudulently getting medicaid from
    the state.  An investigation is forthcoming.
    
    Bruce {who is trying hard and is getting a new life}

    Thanks for the comments. Very interesting, although I think the initial
    question got buried a little bit. What I am trying to get at, is the
    cultural boundaries that are set between men and women. Statistics
    prove that the courts are culturally biased in *favor* of women. But in
    the last decade, role reversal in the home - househusbands if you will,
    have become more visible - not commonplace, but more visible. But
    society has socialized us into categories of what's "manly" and what is
    not.
    
    The question is: Are men systematically denied what is rightfully
    their's simply because they don't think it's the "manly" thing to do -
    that is in seeking alimony if the circumstances warranted it?
                                                          

    
    the courts are masterful at the art of inertia.
    
    whatever wasn't done yesterday is uncomfortably done today at best,
    custody - alimony - whatever.
    
    -Jody
    

    
    re 13
    
    One thing you must remember.  It is not society that is making
    this happen.  It is the laws on the books and the attitudes 
    of the judges presiding.  Realistically, how could a judge who
    was most likely raised in a two parent family where the dad
    worked full time out of the home and the mom worked full time
    as a homemaker in the home not have that affect his or her ideas
    on how children should be raised?  I was brought up primarily 
    by women as the men in my family were absent for many reasons.
    It has taken me quite along time to finally come to the realization
    that men are just as capable of being good parents as are women.
    
    I have gained this perspective from watching friends who are 
    fathers most of whom are now non-custodial fathers.  I have watched
    first hand these fathers cry when thier children are brought back
    to moms.  I have sat and cried with them for the effects that has
    on the kids.  This is wrong and should not be allowed to continue.
    However, until the laws are changed (and that will only be a small
    part of the puzzle) and the life experiences of the judges become
    more in touch with divorce and its effects, the system will remain
    the same.
    
    How can a judge who watched his mom be supported by his dad
    think that it is not the womens responsibility to go to work
    instead of being supported by the man if she is employable?
    Afterall, that is what he or she was brought up with.  That is
    what they were taught was the man's responsibility.  So this
    is where they base thier decisions, in what they think to be
    right by example.