Conference quark::human_relations-v1

    <How can I tell if the man I love is (or is becoming) an alcoholic?>
    
    Why is that important?
    You already _know_ that his drinking is a problem or you wouldn't have
    asked the question.
    
    
    				herb

    Once again, I suggest Al-Anon.  You see, it doesn't matter whether
    or not your SO has a problem with alcohol: you are having difficulty
    because of you SO's drinking.  Al-Anon can help you see what you can
    (and more importantly, what you CAN'T) do.
    
    Al-Anon is listed in the white pages of most U.S. telephone
    directories.
    
    					Good Luck,
    					 andrew					

    
    	Besides what Herb said in .1, a true sign is when you can see
    that his "good nature" depends on him drinking, or "having a drink",
    or having his drink "available", i.e. a six-pack in the fridge...
    
    	If he turns foul in attitude and spirit when the drink or the
    opportunity to drink, or the possibility of drinking is taken away,
    it's a good bet that he's...
    
    	Getting right to the heart of the matter, he's got the disease
    if, when there's nothing to distract him from his feelings; no booze,
    no TV, no food, no cigarettes, no drugs, no money, no sex, no work,
    no excitement of any kind, when he's down to the bare-bones dailyness
    of human existance, he becomes very negative in persona, in attitiude
    and appears to be somehow emotionally uncomfortable.
    
    	People who do not have the disease of alcoholism/addiction can
    remain in a positive light emotionally and in their attitudes, despite 
    the (however temporary or permanent) loss of the above "distractions
    from feelings" or "comforts".
    
    	Joe

    
    
    hiding bottles every place imaginable
    not being able to have "just one"
    forsaking all others for booze
    megadebts or lack of economic stability
    jeckel and hyde like persona when not under the influence
    irritablity   quick to jump
    getting drunk on a continuous basis
    inability to maintain a job due to drinking
    ill health
    
    sure fire sign!!!  the minute anyone mentions the possibility of
    him having a problem with drinking he immediately says that he
    does not have a problem.  the first step is denial!!!
    

    Thanks for entering that note, Steve. I have an answer for .1: the
    reason I want to know is that I feel that if I have evidence he's
    (becoming) an alcoholic, then - and only then - he will consider
    getting help. Not until I can show him I have something to be concerned
    about.
    

    
    
    re -1
    
    
    You can't make him see he has a problem.  This is something only
    he can do himself.  What you can do is, once he has acknowledged
    a problem, help him find the right course of action.  
    
    From my experiences, alcoholism is something that is seen in
    more than one family member.  Try to see if any of his family
    members had or have had problems with substances.  Talk to his
    family members if you can.  The first time my oldest brother
    was engaged we knew he was an alcoholic but his fiancee didnt.
    So we point blank told her.  When my mom was engaged, she 
    did not know my dad was an alcoholic,but his family certainly did.
    They however neglected to tell her.  He eventually died a drunk
    as did his father and his father and his father.......
    

    
    
    re .5
    
    If you feel he has a drinking problem tell him so.  Do not wait
    to gather evidence.  That will only serve to put him on the
    defensive if you choose to call him on it.  Instead just communicate
    your fears to him.  If you honestly beleive he does have a problem,
    be prepared for him to deny it.  Be prepared for him to not think
    he has a problem.  Be prepared for him to not want to deal with
    you when you try to point out the problem.  
    
    Maybe you could enter some of the reasons why you think he may
    be on his road to becoming an alcoholic.   

Several years ago, I shared my fears with one of my close friends that
she might have an alcohol problem.  She was stunned, and denied it immediately.
So I told her what I saw: that she drank a lot, and that she drank alone.  
And, of course, that she denied the possibility that she might have a 
problem... a pattern I'd seen in family members who became alcoholics.  I 
left it at that, since I felt my evidence was sketchy (other than the above,
it was just a hunch) and I didn't want to get into an argument.

A year or so later she thanked me for pointing it out.  She hadn't been
willing to listen at the time, she said, but at some point she'd begun
to wonder herself, remembered what I'd said, and decided on that basis
to get help.

I think Herb hit it spot-on in .1;  you wouldn't be asking if you didn't
already know his drinking was a problem.

    Sharon

    
    	Usually, a mere pointing out that someone has problems with
    alcohol or drugs isnt enough to motivate change. They already know
    what you're pointing out on some level and the "denial" mentioned
    already will used. 
    
    	What is far more effective a motivator toward changing alcoholic
    or addictive habits is loss. Some take just the idea of losing someone
    they value greatly in their lives to make a change for themselves, 
    others can *lose everything they've ever had* and still not "get it".
    
    	The best thing you can do for this man, is to tell him how *you*
    feel about his drinking - forgetting about the qualifications needed
    to be an alcoholic. If his drinking is less than acceptable to you
    (and I suspect it is, by your inquiry) tell him. Say simply and
    firmly, "This is unacceptable to me" and "I cannot be in a relationship
    with this going on" - if that's how you feel.
    
    	If he's smart, he'll hear you and do whatever it takes to make
    the necessary changes concerning this issue. If he doesnt do this,
    as was said already, there's nothing you can do for him. Clearly
    then, it will take a lot more loss to bring him to a point where he can 
    "get it" and make the necessary changes in himself, for himself.
    
    	Hope this helps.
    
    	Joe
    

re: .3, Joe J.

>    	Getting right to the heart of the matter, he's got the disease
>    if, when there's nothing to distract him from his feelings; no booze,
>    no TV, no food, no cigarettes, no drugs, no money, no sex, no work,
>    no excitement of any kind, when he's down to the bare-bones dailyness
>    of human existance, he becomes very negative in persona, in attitiude
>    and appears to be somehow emotionally uncomfortable.
>    
>    	People who do not have the disease of alcoholism/addiction can
>    remain in a positive light emotionally and in their attitudes, despite 
>    the (however temporary or permanent) loss of the above "distractions
>    from feelings" or "comforts".

Are you serious?

You mean to tell me that if you put anybody in a sterile environment for
an indeterminate period and get negative reactions you're going to conclude
that that person has some detrimentally addictive problem?

-Jack

    Jack, it's more like this: if you take away the things that an addict
    might use to feed his addiction, and then take away the things an
    addict might substitute if his chief drug is unavailable -- if you
    leave the addict with nothing but himself/herself, then you'll see
    some very negative reactions.
    
    					andrew

    
    	re .10 -
    
    	I knew someone was going to call me on that.
    
    	It's not so cut and dry as in my explanation. Of course *anyone*
    may get a little down in the mouth if they suddenly find themselves
    totally deprived of every comforting thing for an indeterminate amount 
    of time. That certainly doesnt mean they're "an addict".
    
    	However, as an *indication* of a tendancy toward addictive
    behavior, what I described contains some very good information.
    Take away a smoker's cigarettes for an indefinite amount of time,
    and you've got a very irratable person on your hands. This would 
    apply equally to the alcoholic, drug addict, workaholic, sex addict, 
    drama addict and the other things I mentioned.
    
    	My claim, or what I meant to get across, is that people who do not 
    have some pathological relationship with alcohol (for example), could 
    be deprived of it indefinitely with no change in attitude or emotional 
    outlook. This would also apply equally to the TV addict, drug addict, 
    workaholic, etc. Conversely, if our basenoter noticed that every
    time her loved one was "without", that he got a real sour attitude
    and/or went into some kind of negative emotional state, there might
    be something about his drinking that is or is moving toward "some
    detrimentally addictive problem".
    
    	Also, what Andrew said in .11 about both the primary and substitute
    sources of distraction was very good. Thanks Andrew!
    
    	Hope this helps.
    
    	Joe

re .10

<You mean to tell me that if you put anybody in a sterile environment for
<an indeterminate period and get negative reactions you're going to conclude
<that that person has some detrimentally addictive problem?

Are you serious?

re: .13, Herb

My, but that was profound, Herb. Would you care to elucidate?

???,
-Jack

    <would you care to elucidate>

    I'll try.

    My reply was some intentional ambiguity in response to ambiguity. In that
    sense perhaps you ought to view it as simply a suggestion that you reflect
    on your motivation to enter .10. Since I didn't really understand what you
    meant, some ambiguity was necessary in my reply so I thought that just
    echoing your own words might suggest some sort of sense of how I was
    reacting.   Perhaps (without making too fine a point) my entry ought to be
    considered as maybe a bit of sarcasm in reply to what seemed a tad
    sarcastic? 

    When I try to understand just what you had in mind I run into difficulties.

    As an example let's look again at what you said ...
    
<Are you serious?

<You mean to tell me that if you put anybody in a sterile environment for
<an indeterminate period and get negative reactions you're going to conclude
<that that person has some detrimentally addictive problem?

    I don't think human beings communicate very effectively when we attempt
    to reduce someone's statement to a logical absurdity. That's how .10
    appears to me.

    If .10 had been written as something like ...
    "That entry (.3) confused me. I still don't understand what you mean when
    you say that if somebody gets upset and negative as a result of
    deprivations from liquor, that it is appropriate to conclude that person
    has some kind of unhealthy dependence on liquor."

    then your intent would have seemed clear to me.

    But, since you didn't say that -or anything like that- I assume that you
    understand it already.

    This would lead me to wonder whether you were simply 'challenging the
    generalization' and if so why here; or -possibly- whether you WERE arguing
    with the statement but doing so (kind of elliptically) by extrapolation
    rather than by directly addressing the statement; and to wonder WHY one
    might do that.

    				herb

    re:.0
    
    A fellow noter gave me some AA pamphlets to look over after we had
    a lively discussion in Soapbox about alcoholism.
    
    I'd suggest getting ahold of the one with 21 questions inside, and
    using that as an initial guide to determining if he has a problem
    with alcohol.
    
    It's not a perfect questionnaire, but it's pretty darn good ...

    
    	The amount of drinking is a side effect and not the true measure of
    alcoholism. If drinking has any effect on how you live your life, your
    ability to function in a "normal" manner, if having a drink drives any
    decision making, etc....there's a problem to address. 
    Feel free to contact me if you need to talk about it.

    <what is the difference between drinking socially and alcoholism>?
    I don't believe there is a binary answer to that. It seems to me that
    it is like asking the question ...
    What is the difference between red and blue? At the ends of the
    spectrun the differences are profound. In the middle of the spectrum
    the differences are minute.
    I'd like to suggest that the characterization of drinking in .18 is
    consistent with somewhere in the middle of the spectrun. In my opinion,
    if Red = alcoholism and Blue is social drinking the words in 1267.18
    describe somebody who is considerably closer to Red than to Blue.
    
    <Am I an alcoholic????  
    I don't see that question as terribly important.
    But, my answer is "i don't know, but you _clearly_ describe a  drinking
    problem of considerable dimension"

    <Is there a difference between alcoholism and alcohol dependency? >
    Probably.  But it's probably largely an academic/technical
    distinction.

    <I don't feel that I particularly NEED alcohol, but I LIKE alcohol>
    Somebody who likes a substance that consistently causes severe behavior
    changes and problems has an unhealthy relationship with that substance.

    <What is the difference between drinking socially and alcoholism??
    I think we have been discussing it
    
    As for advice, maybe continue talking here. That takes a lot of guts.
    Other than that, ...
    You have taken the first huge step...
    You are acknowledging you have a problem.
    
    At this point my comments no longer are directed at .18
    
    If one is prepared to say something like  "I have no control over this
    problem, I am powerless, I need help  then you might find Alcohol
    Anonymous (A.A.) helpful.
    AA has the additional advantage of providing a built-in support system
    of allies. People who have learned how and are learning how to live
    their lives without alcohol. The 'population' of AA meetings is
    probably just as diverse as the population of our society. Some
    meetings are filled with 'skid-row'  derelicts, others have nobody but
    upper-middle class successful executives, yet others are everything
    in-between. Most people with drinking problems use this avenue. Perhaps
    somebody can comment on its success rate. Pretty modest, I understand.
    
    On the other hand, if you are like me you may have the hubris to say 
    	"I will _not_ acknowledge my helplessness. 
    and the honesty to say
    	"I _cannot_ acknowledge a higher power"
    then things are rather more dicey.  (success rate probably much worse)
    
    I was able to stop drinking only after many, many years of expensive
    psychotherapy. (and a good argument could be made that
    psychotherapy/psychotherapists was/were my "higher power(s)". If so,
    then some of them sure were my lower powers too!
    
    There are also some who do it on 
    
    		W I L L   P O W E R.
    My friends in AA sometimes describe those folks as dry drunks.
    
    Whichever path you try, I wish you luck and patience. It is a damnably
    rough road
    
    				herb

Re: .18


Try this exercise:  go back and reread your note, and every time you used
the word "alcohol" substitute "cocaine".  Now imagine someone else wrote it
and asked you for advice as to whether or not they have a drug problem.  What
would you tell them?  (In point of fact, I believe alcohol IS a drug but that
is a whole 'nother discussion.)


You wrote three sentences in a row which to me are big warning signs.  The
first sentence starts, "We've realized that our whole social life....".  You
may not need alcohol to live, but it sounds like you need it to have fun.  That
to me constitutes a problem, but I'm sure there are plenty who would disagree.



Brian

    <If you base a drinking problem or alcoholism on needing to drink to
    <have fun you might as well say that most people that are around my age
    <have a drinking problem.  Is that accurate?  
    
    Sure! Sounds like a reasonable basis to me. Wouldn't you agree?
    

    <most people my age have a drinking problem>

    a helava lot of them do.

    Our older daughter -who just graduated from a small northeast liberal
    arts college- attests to that, so would our younger daughter who is
    in another small northeast liberal arts college. 
    The _same_ problems are reported about big urban schools on a regular
    basis in Boston newspapers and Boston T.V stations.
    It all sounds rather like it was for me when I was in the Navy from
    17-21. (no NOT 1917-1921 :-) )
    And on the weekend the college dorms look rather like our Navy
    barracks did.
        
    helava lot of people all ages have drinking problems.
    
    And if we spend our time trying to decide whether those people are
    alcoholics, I don't think we will solve many problems. 
    Cuz _nobody_ wants to admit to   
    
    
    			A L C O H O L I S M.
    
    A nice precise definition of alcoholism allows many people to pretend
    they don't have a problem, i think.

    Only YOU can decide if you have a problem or not.  My suggestion would
    be to attend a few AA meetings...talk to members...and most important
    listen.  
    

    
    	If you use the "life damaging consequences" corroborating symptom,
    well, those "nearly marriage wrecking" fights you describe certainly 
    qualify as such. So there's a point to consider and possibly check
    off: "yes".
    
    	Another specific symptom is to consider if your use of alcohol
    causes you and your husband to get into situations where you may
    be injured or killed - drunk driving being the most obvious example.
    There's a possible check.
    
        A less clear thing to consider is does your social life take you
    to dangerous places - where you otherwise would not go - as it revolves
    around your use of alcohol? If true, there's another possible check.
    
    	The biggest symptom I see is your statement where there's an
    apparent "lack of joy with life" - unless alcohol is being consumed.
    This is tantamount to not allowing yourself to feel as bad as you
    really feel, because whenever you feel that bad, you instead choose
    to "have fun" by consuming alcohol. It's gotten to where you cant
    "feel good/have fun" without it! So there's another possible
    check. People who arent alcoholics can "feel good/have fun" without
    it, all on their own.
    
    	Another symptom is your attempt to rationalize and justify your
    use of alcohol with the "everyone my age is doing it" argument.
    A chief characteristic of an alcoholic mindset is the attempt to
    "intellectualize" their usage; "If you understood things like I
    understand things - you'd drink too". In your example, it's "If
    you understood that everyone 22 yrs old parties like I understand
    they do..." Though this in itself doesnt make you an alcoholic,
    it's another "check" to consider honestly.
    
    	As I've said before, it takes a bunch of these observations
    in yourself or another person to make an accurate diagnosis of
    alcoholism. I've outlined 5 here off the top of my head - there's
    plenty more in the general body of knowledge on this topic. Go to
    an open discussion AA meeting, get some of the literature there
    and do an honest analysis of your situation - while your concern
    about it is still alive in you!
    
    	Joe

    	I am certainly NO expert, but I'll give you some ideas that spring
    to mind as I read your note.


>    I am 22 years old.  Most of the people my age are out frequenting bars
>    and having a great time.  I was drinking before I met my husband and
>    did not have a problem with it.  It seems like it has only become a
>    problem when we drank together.  If you base a drinking problem or
>    alcoholism on needing to drink to have fun you might as well say that
>    most people that are around my age have a drinking problem.  Is that
>    accurate?


    	Was it that you didn't have a problem before you met your husband,
    or that you were merely *unaware* of it?  Awareness is such a big thing
    with these situations.


    	Unfortunately, yes.  I think there's an awful lot of people who
    have drinking problems who simply aren't aware of the part it plays in
    their lives.  If you view alcohol as your "friend", it's more likely
    your enemy.


>     My point is, there are an awful lot of kids my age that are
>    frequenting bars, having a few, having a great time and whatever else. 
>    That is their form of entertainment.  This is how I viewed myself (or
>    still view, I'm not sure, I'm confused)  I view alcohol as my form of
>    entertainment.  The things that start the fights are when I am accused
>    of doing things that I feel were misinterpreted by my husband.  What
>    I'm trying to figure out is, is it me with the problem or is it him. 
>    Or is it alcohol at all.  I know I'm a mess but I need a variety of
>    opinions on this so I know what what kind of help to get.
    

    	It's certainly comforting to note that if a large number of other
    people are doing something, then it must be okay.  However you can't
    always draw this conclusion.  Why do you need to drink to have fun?


    	As for who's "fault" it is, it could be both of you.  It depends on
    the actions that are misinterpreted, *when* they're misinterpreted
    (that is, before, during or after drinking), etc.  Sounds like one
    place to start might be to sit down and talk about these situations and
    try to see the other person's point of view.


    Brian

    Aha, in my opinion, you are getting warm.
    Drinking can be a problem in its own right (e.g. it can kill people)
    Drinking (and other 'addictions') can also be a symptom of other
    problems.
    
    
    				herb

Only you will ever know what really rings true to you but what
I hear you saying sounds to me like "dutch courage" time....

A few drinks don't make things bad just allow the fear of the 
consequences of expressing yourselves/himself to diminish
to a point where an arguament can start.... and once it's 
started the slower reactions in your mind let things snowball
into defensive attacks.... 

A situation I was in in the past showed some similar signs by 
the sounds of things, eventually we didn't need a drink to get triggered
of onto everything I did was wrong and thus onto major warfare...

    
    	Re JL -
    
    >The question is should this be treated as an alcohol problem
    >or should it be treated as a jealousy/control problem?
    
    	It is now well known, amongst therapists and counselors who
    deal with addiction and other personal problems, that the alcohol
    usage must be stopped first. Therefore, you're best off considering
    this as an alcohol problem - for now.
    
    	Stopping the use of *alcohol* (or, substitue whatever substance
    or activity capable of acting as an emotional anesthetic in any way)
    is necessary, because doing so affords the opportunity to even get
    at the underlying problem.
    
    	This is a pretty broad statement and I'm sure there are those
    who would dis-agree. I disagreed myself a few years ago, countering
    with a theory that "if you get to and treat the underlying problems 
    first, the resulting symptom of alcohol (or whatever) usage will
    just dissappear as the treatment of the underlying problem progresses"
    	
    	Well, I've since learned that I was wrong. It's because the
    "emotional anesthetic" properties of the alcohol unequivocally
    interfers with the treatment process; treatment just wont be
    successful with someone still using an emotional "crutch" to 
    get by!
    
    	ANY substance taken internally which has the ability to change 
    how you feel is what I mean by "emotional anesthetic". ANY activity 
    taken on which has the ability to change how you feel can also qualify
    as such.
    
    	People can use food, work, gambling, hard drugs, TV, exercize,
    books - the gamut is enormous - as a way to avoid or get themselves
    through certain feelings they have. In the case of your husband,
    he's using a socially acceptable drug "alcohol" to medicate a very
    painful emotional wound he has. 
    
    	I worded that with some certanty because people with jealousy/control 
    and self-esteem problems in their adult life more than likely were
    emotionally wounded at some point in their childhood. His reaction
    to your "friendly and then friendlier" behavior is a bit beyond
    what's appropriate for the situation - an observation which can
    be taken as diagnostic to the "wounded child" condition I've described -
    along with others needed to be more completely certain.
    
    	He's probably very afraid that you're going to leave him for
    one of the people he's seeing you being friendly with and it's his
    fear which is making him so upset with you. Of course, you're not
    going to leave him and you basically have no idea why he's so upset
    with you over this. It's not you, it's this *wound* he has that your
    friendly behavior - through a bit if cognitive stretching - "gets
    him to" or brings up and out of repression. So, he's like coming
    at you with this emotional fury that's completely out of proportion
    to the situation! And you're going like "what did I do!?!"
    
    	It, however, is completely _in_ proportion to whatever hapened
    way back when. So, it's not even about you or anything that you're doing!
    It's about *what happened* to this guy at some point a long time ago,
    most probably when he was a child. If he does go to therapy for his
    jealousy/control and self esteem problems, I'd bet dollars to donuts
    the therapist will recommend his stopping the alcohol use as a condition
    of continued treatment.
    
    	Hope this helps.
    
    	Joe

    	

    <...I get a little friendlier.  I do not consider my self as being
    <flirtatious in any way.  I have also asked other people (friends that would
    <give me a brutally honest opinion) whether they thought that I became
    <flirtatious after a few drinks and the answer from all was not, not at all.

    You seem to be saying that you are not accountable for behavior that
    undermines his self esteem. 
    <I have always thought that it was my husbands lack of self esteem that
    <caused the problem because these incidents formed a pattern.  We drink,
    <he gets mad because he misinterprets something I do or say, and we
    <fight. 

    because he misinterprets 
    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    
    Why is it that you behave in such a way as to undermine his self-esteem?
    knowing he misinterprets?

    What is he misinterpreting?
    	your heightened friendliness 
    	your motivation for the increased friendliness
    You know it happens, you clearly articulate what causes it, yet you
    continue to do it...
    
        			or am i missing something...

    				herb

    re <herb you sound just like my husband>
    I intended my questions to be different from _blaming_ you.
    
    You and he behave in a certain way when you two drink. You know that he
    will behave that way. You know that you will behave that way. You
    _chose_ to do it. That choice results in strife.  It is that behavior
    that 'triggers' his behavior when he also has been drinking.
    You own _only_ your behavior. If you didn't drink presumably you would
    not <get a little friendlier>. etc
    
    There are implications in drinking. You chose to drink. You are
    responsible for that choice.
    
    you said 
    <...I get a little friendlier.>
    
    Why is it that you behave in a way that from experience you know will
    undermine his self-esteem? (i hope that change in phrasing is enough to
    clarify the split in "responsibility")
    
    There is a lot of give and take in intimate relationships. Recognizing
    each other's foibles is part of that process. If you and he are
    convinced that his self-esteem needs to be addressed, fine. (sure
    sounds sensible to me) In the meantime you _could_ modify _your_
    behavior in such a way as to decrease the likelihood of his preexisting
    fragile self-esteem getting wounded.
    
    As an example... 
    My wife is very easy to trigger into feeling guilty/responsible about
    things. She _always_ feels uneasy (each and every time) when she is
    away for a day or more and I eat t.v. dinners. I can easily trigger
    guilt in her just by grumbling a bit about my frozen meal. I sometimes
    will tease her _affectionately_ but the smile has to come by the second
    sentence or so.
    If eating frozen dinners DID 'offend me', I feel I would have a
    responsibility to either not admit that, or to cook more 'traditional'
    meals. I often choose to eat t.v. dinners. As it happens I enjoy them.
    After almost 25 years of marriage she _still_ has trouble believing me.
    (because she was 'conditioned' so well, that a traditional dinner is
    important). What I own is recognition of her sensitivity in this area.
    How I behave vis a vis that sensitivity is _my_ choice.
    
    				herb

    p.s.
    cooking 'real' dinners for myself is not REALLY a viable option.
    why?
    
    Cuz _then_ we would both be required to stop pretending that I can't
    cook.
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    re <i gotta be me>     that's right  you gotta be thee (you gotta be thee)
    
    but i would hope that part of being 'thee' would include care and
    consideration for 'thy' spouse, wouldn't you?
    
    I think that any problem that a member of a relationship has, the other
    member perforce has also. 
    One solution to that problem is to feel: "tough s**t that's his problem",
    another is to feel:  "no skin of _my_ back", another is: "so-long
    its been _good_ to know you", another solution is to ask: "how can I
    help, what can _I_ do (or not do) to prevent the triggering?
    
    It's hard for me to see any but the last one as a reflection of the
    kind of committment that marriage means to me.
    
    <The man needs therapy to address his low esteem problems.>
    I would like to restate it as "if there is a man who fits that
    description, that man needs some help (his loved ones can contribute to
    that help)"
    
    <I gotta be me!
    <I gotta be me!
    <I don't think I would stop doing something that I enjoyed as an
    <individual to make sure that his esteem was not effected.
    
    That's always a trade-off, isn't it? 
    It's different than my idea of marriage. I'm sure glad my wife doesn't
    feel that way. She would have left me many years ago.

    are you married?

    ok
    
    i pass

    because I consider what was said in .40 to be different
    from what was said in .27 and I don't want to argue about it.

    The difference I see is that .27 states that the demeanor is "a
    little more friendly" after drinking.

    whereas in .40
    the sober vs drinking scenarios seem identical...

    <... in the mall, maybe I would hug him or maybe just say "hello" in a
    <way that showed I was genuinely excited to see him. (Not sexually
    <excited) 
    
    <... after a few drinks.  I would see Joe, say "hello" in an "excited
    to see you way" and maybe I would hug  Joe.

    best of luck to both of you.
    
    
    				herb

    i'm a alchololic i have not touched a drink in 13 years. i started at a
    young age (17 years old). i was in the navy and spent two years in viet
    nam i used that as a excuse to drink because i lost my leg. i got
    married about 10 years later and still used the same excuse for
    drinking i thought i would not have a good time at a party unless i
    drank and then just to find out i made an idiot out of myself i
    attended up almost loosing my family from it. if you really want to do
    something about it the very first thing you  have to do is think about
    it and decide if this is the way you want to live your life. remember
    one thing if you decided you want to quit you have to do it for
    yourself and know one else. if you to do it for someone else you will
    fail big time. it is only you who cane make a big change on the way
    your life will go. i did not attend aa meetings i just one day decided
    that i had enough and wanted to quit drinking for myself before i
    either died from it or killed someone by accident and also try life
    with sober eyes.