Conference quark::human_relations-v1

    From experience, when she starts to look else where. Its over. And
    trust is something that can never be again. Seek a ground fault of
    'Adultery'. And stick to it to the end.

>	Do I really *want* to do any of the above? I think I do.

That says it all.  You love your wife.  She says she loves you.  She has
hurt you very deeply.  It will take time, lots of it, to heal.

Trust is easy to lose and hard to gain.  Your wife should know that it will take
a while before you can trust her completely again.


It's good that you are getting counseling.  Your wife needs it too.

I sincerely hope you two can work things out.

Bob

    
    
     How could I ever believe her again?
     How could I ever trust her again?
     
    - The plain fact of human interaction is that most everyone lies about
    something at some point. This doesn't mean that they will ALWAYS lie or
    ALWAYS be untrustworthy. It just means that circumstances occurred
    which led them to feel that the lie was "better" than the truth. She
    may be perfect for you for the rest of your life or she could lie to
    you forever- you just have to decide whether or not your relationship
    is worth the risk. From what you say and given the fact that there's
    kids involved- I'd say you'd want to risk it.
    
     How do I overcome the deep feeling of betrayal?  
     How could I justify forgiveness?
     How do I erase the mental pictures of her with him during our marriage?
     
    -It may be hard not to feel betrayed, but the fact is that for most
    people having an affair is not something that they can do in the open.
    Betrayal is a given, but only because we believe that sex outside of
    our marraige is unacceptable. Normally it's not like your spouse can
    say "honey, I'm attracted to someone else right now so if you don't
    mind, I'll be coming home late tonight." Not gonna happen. Hence the
    lies, betrayal etc. It sounds like it may be worthwhile to get some
    joint counseling to help you get over your negative feelings about the
    situation because you sound like you thought you had a great
    relationship going and want to get back to that point. I bet if you
    had never heard from that ***** about the affair with her husband,
    you'd still think everything was just peachy. You got to wonder about
    peoples motivation when they pull stunts like that. 
    	You can get past this if it's really what you want.   
     

    Only you can decide whether you can ever believe her again
    Only you can decide whether you can ever trust her again.
    
    If my wife and I were ever to have the conversations that you recounted
    to us, I would be MOST flabbergasted that I had seen no hints of that
    before. That the level of trust had fallen that far, and I had no
    emotional clues that something was going on. I would feel the need to
    try to understand how our relationship had become so distant that I had
    become unable to identify any signals of such a rift. I would feel the
    need to seek some professional counseling
    
    
    				herb

    
    	Re .0 -
    
    I'd say go with your own sense of integrity. If you feel betrayed
    and that goes beyond forgiveness, go for ending your marriage. If
    you feel that forgiveness is possible - without losing face - go for
    a reconstruction and working it out.
    
    What you'd want to avoid is losing your integrity or sense of self
    respect for the sake of "saving the marriage" or "the kids". Your
    resentment of her betrayal and your consequent self-betrayal in
    this case could eventually manefest in some oblique manner which would
    be a very unhealthy situation - for all of your family. If you choose
    to just keep it a "secret", that secret will get (acted) out and effect
    the emotional health of your children in a profound, negative way.
    
    Actually, it would be better for the kids that you demonstrate
    your sense of personal integrity in action, than it would be to
    betray that sense "for their sake". She made the decision to go
    off and do whatever, instead of confronting you if there was a 
    problem, so now there's consequences for making that choice and 
    she's responsible for dealing with it. The ball is trully in 
    your court.

    	IMHO, of course. I'm sorry to hear that you've been presented
    with such a painful situation, time in your life and decision to make.
    I understand that it must be really tough for you now. Hope this
    helps,
    
    	Joe

     
    
    I have another way of looking at things.  I would suggest that
    your wife cheated on you because she was emotionally/physically
    vulnerable to doing that.  The previous noter assumed that she
    did nothing to make you aware of her vulnerability.  Perhaps he
    is wrong and she did try to make you aware.  If you could think back to
    that time and see that she tried to get your help, then you could
    possibly feel partially responsible for the situation she was in.  If
    you feel partially responsible, then you have not only her to be
    upset with but yourself too.  If you believe that you are paritally
    responsible for the problem, that would give you ammunition to 
    believe that you can prevent it from happening again.
    
    I understand from reading/friends/etc that the following things
    could each make her vulnerable:
      did/does she feel that you find her attractive physically?
      did/does she feel that you find her attractive emotionally &
    intellectually?
      did/does she feel ignored?
      did/does she try to get you to go on "dates" or vacations alone and
    you turn her down?
      did/does she believe that you are satisfied and happy in the
    marriage?
      did/does she feel that you had/have as much emotion invested in the
    relationship as she does?
      was/is there still romance in the marriage?  (kissing and other
    passionate displays of affection)
    
    I believe that all of the above things could make a person vulnerable. 
    ie: if she feels unattractive to you and/or ignored then all someone
    needs to do is pay attention to her and if that's what she craves, then
    she is very vulnerable.  I am not saying that you have done anything
    wrong or mean.  I am trying to show that there are many reasons a
    person cheats on their mate and most of those reasons involve the
    relationship they are in.  Since a "relationship" is involved then both
    people are probably partially responsibile for the situation.  
    
    
    I hope you will take my comments as they are meant - in a constructive
    manner.  I don't mean to make you feel any worse than you already do. 
    I'm just trying to show that you probably do have some level of
    control.
    
    Rachael

    I'm not pointing to any replys in this note...so let's get that out of
    the way right now....but I've got a question (bascially because I've 
    noticed this alot with friends/family).
    
    Has anyone ever noticed how differently husbands act to the wife having
    an affair - as opposed to the wife finding out and how she deals with
    it?
    
    Lynne
    

    i think that's worth a separate topic. 
    In addition, I sure would hate to clutter up this man's "call for help"
    with a discussion on male/female differences wrt infidelity.
    
    
    				herb

    I have know people in your situation and it's very touchy.
    Everyone says "If you really love someone, you'd take them back..."
    Then there's the other that say "How could you take them back.  You
    give your life and sole to this other person and for a stupid sense
    of insecurity they go have an affair."
    
    Uh Uh, I don't care if I were married to I don't know who....once 
    this happens, you can never go back to the way it was.  
    
    

    re:.0
    
    Oh man.
    
    That's the kind of thing that could make me pack my bags and leave,
    and never once look back.
    
    If my wife/woman/SO/girlfriend has an affair, I want to know about it
    from HER, not someone else.
    
    I feel for ya...

    I don't think this is a subject of saving face, but rather can I still
    love or trust this person.
    
    I don't know how I'd react if my partner were to do this.  I'd at least
    have to leave the situation for a while.  Just couldn't handle being in
    the same space.
    
    Then go from there. Time to reflect and re-evaluate for both of you.
    
    cindy

    I have family members who have gone through this, and they have proved
    that you can rebuild the marriage--IF both partners are willing to do
    the work involved.
    
    No, it's not the same as it was before.  From my perspective it looks
    better.  Sure, there was a lot of hurt and anger and distrust to over-
    come--ON BOTH SIDES, because there's lots of truth in the previous note
    that pointed out that both of you may have been party to the
    infidelity in one way or another.  But they were motivated to overcome 
    BECAUSE they truly love each other and wanted to fix the problems both
    of them had caused and rebuild.
    
    It took years, and some times were better than others.  But both were
    committed to the rebuilding, and with appropriate counseling and family
    support, they've made a success of it.
    
    If you think it's worth the effort, go for it.  But get her
    whole-hearted buy in, too.
    
    Good luck to both of you.
    Karen              

    
    	Maybe it's not a matter of "saving face". However...

        I do feel that if a person's chosen action has to come to 
    having an affair to simply communicate that there's a problem, 
    that's just like _such_ a dysfunctional and dangerous way to go 
    about it that it really does approach the inexcusable.
    
    	This is regardless of the lack of "perceptiveness" on the part
    of the husband in this case. If your man is "unresponsive", going
    off and bedding with some other guy is *absolutely inappropriate*
    as a way of letting him know you're having some, however serious, 
    problem with him. I'd think it inappropriate while *dating* let
    alone under marriage!
    
    	My guess is that the basenoter would have to have something
    in him that goes far beyond most people's tolerance to make this
    work now. It is indeed possible, but it will take a lot. My advice
    was simply to not sell himself and his own morals short in whatever
    effort is takes to resolve this. The consequential damage would be,
    IMHO, "manifold".
    
	Joe

    I don't think a person has an affair so that he/she can communicate to
    their partner that there's a problem. I don't see how it could done so
    consciensiousily.
    
    Next, who wins?  You both want to win.  He divorces, he loses the woman
    he loves.  The family unit (apparently strong) is broken.  No matter,
    whether they break up or stay together, it's a hard road.
    
    What does his wife learn?  That she regrets her affair and (apparently)
    wants to keep her family. So, what does she do.  Continues her life,
    finds another mate and doesn't have an affair.  Isn't that what the
    husband wants now?
    
    There probably isn't no hard and fast rule. Maybe this woman just needs
    more attention than anyone could possibly give.  Maybe she needs
    attention from other sources.  This husband will have decide whether he
    can deal with that or not.
    
    Perhaps writing down on paper, the negative and positive about your
    relationship.  Any relationship will deteroiate without balance.  Both
    partners have to feel that they're getting what they need or want.
     
    cindy

    It looks to me like she made her choice. When it came right down to
    it she chose YOU. She moved with YOU. She is with YOU. In my 
    opinion the woman that called you with the news is trying to destroy
    your marriage. She must be jealous of your wife and wants to ruin
    what she has. If I were you I'd try to put it behind me and go on.
    Don't put your wife through the mill and try not to go through the
    mill your self. It happened...it's in the past. Leave it there.

    Re.  .13  I agree with your perceptions 100%!  A close friend of mine
    had an affair and I did not condemn her for it, but tried to understand
    why.  He did find out about it, it did end in divorce, however, he
    consistently failed to try and understand the 'why'.  Even though it
    was wrong, this woman was just lonely to the bone and needed someone to
    talk too.  Then someone to be with.  Then someone to love and love her. 
    I can't condemn her for that.
    
    As for .16, send 'her' for counseling?  Well how about him?  Isn't it
    THEIR marriage.  She had the affair, yet there isn't enough money in
    the world for me to believe that it was for no reason at all.  I don't
    believe a happy spouse can be that easily lured from his/her home.
    
    Next, what prompted the other man's wife to contact you now?  What was
    her motive?  How cruel on her part!
    
    Then we are all ignoring the FACT that your wife did stay with you even
    after the affair was over.  Seems to me she made her decision, probably
    felt sorry as hell about the affair and hoped it would be buried along
    with her someday.  I think she's hurting here to.  
    
    There isn't any easy solution here, as you know.  But, I will pray for
    both of you and your children.  After a 14 year investment in this
    relationship, I certainly hope it ends happily for ALL 4 OF YOU!
    
    God Bless & Best Wishes!
    
    Estelle
    

.17>  It looks to me like she made her choice. When it came right down to
.17>  it she chose YOU. She moved with YOU. She is with YOU. In my 
    
    You think so, eh?
    
.0>	a year and only was broken off because me and my family had
.0>	to relocate elsewhere. She said my wife had continued to phone
.0>	him while they were married (he has since left her) and also
.0>	written him letters. I said I would have to see proof so she
    
    Looks to me like she stopped seeing the other guy because she moved
    too far away to make it feasible.  And she still maintained telephone
    contact even after the move.
    
    You call that a choice?!
    
    Looks to me like the decision was made for her.

    .18 Sorry, if I wasn't clear. Both parties. And if she doesn't want 
    go. Then get an attorney. And dig in deep. 

    My first thought is that right now you are probably (I know I would!)
    far too emotional to make such important decisions.  Most likely you
    have all kinds of emotions raging through you depending on your mood,
    what's happening around you, what song is on the radio, etc.  Doesn't
    sound like a good environment for rational thought.  (I'm basing this
    on my experience, some/all of this may not be true for you.)


    I would take some time for things to settle down, for your emotions to
    swing back from the extremes to something approaching the middle
    ground.  At that time you'll have a better frame of mind to start
    thinking about where you want to go with this.  And once the opacity of
    emotion has been lifted, it may even be clear to you where you want to
    go.


    The bottom line is that you're the only one who can make these
    decisions because you're the one who's going to have to live with them.
    So make sure they're the right ones for *you*.


>	The why turned out to be because she felt I didn't need her and
>	she wanted attention elsewhere. (shock to me!)


    [Insert big flag here.]  Sounds to me like there's a communication
    problem here (usually is with this type of scenario).  Either she
    wasn't communicating her needs, or you weren't listening (or noticing)
    hard enough.  Most likely some of both.  This is something that would
    need to be worked on if you decide to stay.

	

>	I've seen a lawyer and a marriage counselor. I cannot decide
>	what to do. My wife and I are on speaking terms to try and hide 
>	the situation from the kids. We both love them dearly. I think I
>	love her yet hate her for what she's done. (Never gave much real
>	thought about what a 'love-hate' relationship really was.)



    	I can understand you're having difficulty deciding what to do.
    Like I said, give it some time -- even though that's probably the
    hardest thing to do right now!


    	I think it's possible to get past this, work on the relationship
    and *heal* together.  It depends on how much you're both willing to
    try and how much damage has been done.



    	Good luck.


    Brian

A reply from the anonymous author of .0
-------------------------------------------------------------------
	Would you please enter this for me. Anonymously of course.
	I really appreciate your help.

--------------------------------------------------------------------
        >>  trust is something that can never be again
        
               I sincerely hope you are wrong. There's only one
               way I could ever 'feel' married again and that
               would be to trust my mate. I don't feel towrds her
               like I used to. I hear it takes time. 
	       Forgive and forget?
               Never forget. Maybe forgive.
                
        >>  you can never go back to the way it was.

               That's a fact I realize. I was happy, she was not.
               I guess I never asked much 'are you happy?'. Then
               again I never much asked 'are you stepping out on me?'
               either. When I did, she lied. I always tried to make her 
	       feel unrestricted and counted on her to make the right
	       decisions. Clearly we didn't talk enough. 

	>>  what prompted the other man's spouse to call

		She said he had left her and wondered if I knew where he
		might be. Some seem to think this lady did something
		wrong. I do not. She has not lied as far as I can tell.
		She may be bitter but she was upset too. I do not hold
		this against her at all.

	I've just finished reading 'Private Lies' by Frank Pittman. It's
	an excellent book for anyone who has experienced an affair, either
	as the cuckold (his term for the betrayed), the infidel, or the
	affairee. It tries to explain why people have affairs and why they
	lie about it. There are many different types of affairs. Accidental,
	romantic, philandering, and marital arrangement. I feel my wife's
	was accidental. It tries to explain the infidelity after we moved
	(yes, letters and phone calls ARE infidelity). He talks about some-
	thing called 'accidental divorce'.  I may still divorce, but it
	will be after a lot of soul searching and a lot of talking.	
	I still find myself doubting what she says. I still get angry. I 
	still feel betrayed, still get very sad. She knows how I feel. 
	She seems genuinely sorry. Guilty. Afraid. We talk, a lot.  
	She has agreed to see the marriage councilor. 
        

    > We talk, a lot.
    
    IMHO - that's half the battle right there.  
    

    > Open minds and open hearts will make it work.
    
    > keep some of the cards to yourself if she decided to renege.
    
    ???????????????
    

    Trust em as far as you can throw em..... Thats the message.....:)

    I feel sorry for you dearheart.  You must have been burnt VERY badly.
    :) not withstanding. ;-)
    

    "Turn and learn or crash and burn."
    
    I've seen people cling to remnant of relationships like drowning people
    cling to flotsam from a shipwreck.  Let it go and swim to shore. 
    Better yet, if you check, you'll probably find that the water ain't
    that deep anyway.
    
    Take the short term pain and get it over with.  If you try to
    reconcile, you will have years of grief and doubt and inner turmoil all
    for a person who didn't value her commitment to you, herself and god
    enough to stay honest.

    "I trust that chick about as far as I can bowl 'er."

    re: .28
    
    I *DO* feel for the basenoter.  But I also keep in mind that it's HIS
    decision...the one that HE has to live with.  Not all situations like
    his wind up in divorce....
    

    To the basenoter,
    
    Good for you and best of luck.  I am glad to hear that you both are
    willing to work at it.  It seems to me that you wife knows she made a
    mistake (maybe that is why she lied to you when you first confronted
    her), and I don't feel it is good to forget, but it is very healthy to
    forgive, and you will probably end up with a much stronger marriage due
    to this.  Infidelity has been going on for years.  I've known people
    who were married 40 - 50 years, and their spouse had had an affair 5 -
    10 years into the marriage, but they decided to stay together and work
    it out  (even the children did not know until they were married
    themselves and going through problems).
    
    Divorce is easy --- working it out is the tough thing, and if you
    really love each other you will work it out.  If your wife did not care
    for you she would not have relocated with you and she would not be
    willing to work it out -- in other words she would not be with you
    today, she would be with the "other man" or someone else.
    
    Best of luck, I see a happy ending to this story . . . . 
    
    Debby
    

    I read somewhere that MOST marriages do not split up following a 
    one-off affair.
    
    Yes, it will take time, but I believe that you should give it a go -
    you have an awful lot too lose if you just give up.
    
    If your wife wanted to leave you she would have done so, or she might
    have started another affair.  It sounds to me like her affair was
    symptomatic and opportunistic.
    
    Whilst I would not discredit anyone else's opinions here I think you
    are getting aome very black/white advise from people which is based on
    their experiences and hurts - sometime's I feel that the advise given
    in this notesfile come predominantly from people who have "been
    through the mill" (me included!) as someone is more likely to seek a
    conference like this after/during a personal bad experience.
    
    I know that's how I came to this conference, and at the time and
    shortly after I know I was not able to give well-balanced opinion.
    
    
    
    Xtine

    The following reply has been contributed by a member of our community
    who wishes to remain anonymous.  If you wish to contact the author by
    mail, please send your message to QUARK::MODERATOR, specifying the
    conference name and note number. Your message will be forwarded with
    your name attached  unless you request otherwise.

				Steve






Dear Anon,

	I'll try to give you some insight from the other side, having 
been there.  Why did I do it?  I had tried to tell my husband that 
there was a problem.  I tried to tell him what it was.  Our 
communication skills were not good.  He didn't understand what I was 
trying to say or I didn't tell him in a way he could understand.  
Either way, it wasn't understood.  I believed I was being very clear.

	I can remember sitting in the dining room and telling him that 
maybe we needed to separate and try to find what we had lost.  He 
didn't think I was serious.  In fact, he took it so unseriously that 
he didn't remember the conversation until I reminded him of it!

	So, someone else came along and offered me what I was looking 
for (or so I thought).  Things got so bad I asked for a divorce.  The 
next 2 years were hell, for both of us.  We went to joint counseling, 
I went to individual counseling.  We are still married and our 
marriage is better than it was before.

	I realized very shortly after filing that I had made a 
mistake.  Unfortunately (or maybe fortunately) it wasn't as easy as 
saying "I made a mistake".  I withdrew my petition, he filed.  We 
continued counseling and living as husband and wife.  We even bought a 
freezer four days before going to court for the hearing on his 
petition for divorce!  

	I thank God for the judge we had.  I had filed a petition for 
dismissal of his on the grounds that the marriage did in fact exist in 
all areas and that there was no "irreconcilable damages", or whatever 
it's called.  After hearing from both lawyers and both of us, the 
judge granted my petition.

	That wasn't the end of things.  My husband sorta moved out 
(that's a whole story in itself).  He stated he was going to refile.  
At this point I said fine, I've done all I can.  I told him I still 
loved him, still believed in the marriage.  BUT....I went my way, did 
things with friends (always invited him, but went even if he didn't 
want to).  I let him know I would have preferred he joined us, yet I 
was going to go anyway.

	As it turned out, one of the real obstacles he had to get over 
was his belief that I "needed to be married" as opposed to I "wanted 
to be married to him".

	It can work out.  It takes a lot of patience, belief and 
COMMUNICATING!  Each person HAS to LISTEN to the other and be willing 
to admit that maybe they hadn't heard what the other was really 
saying.  One thing I had to learn was how my husband showed me he 
loved me.  It wasn't in the way I was looking for, but it was there.  
All I had to do was understand how he demonstrated his love.  It is a 
matter of accepting that the other person may not communicate like you 
do, may not do things the same way you do or want.

	Good luck.

    To the basenoter:
    
    	It sounds like you're on the right track and doing the right thing.
    	Good luck- hope it all works out for you.
    
    	From reading the replies, it obvious that there are some very 
    	bitter judgemental people out there who remind me of the kids
    	when you are young that love to play "Let's you and him fight!"
    	They're miserable and just LOVE company. They know who they are.
        Ignore 'em. Love 'em in spite of themselves. It drives 'em nuts.

    Marriage sure sounds like a lot of work.
    
    Doesn't anyone have a marriage that just works out on its own, or
    do they all require this much attention and effort to last?

    I doubt if any marriage works 'on its own', but we have certainly never
    had the magnitude of problems that have recently be recounted here.
    
    
    				
    
    				herb

    Mike, you sound like my husband.  He feels a marriage should just
    "flow", and if you have to work at it, then it isn't worth having.
    
    It's not a very productive attitude to say the least.
    

    Well, I think it would depend on how you define "work" (at a marriage). 
    If it's an exhausting, draining hassle, all day every day, then with
    friends (family) like that, who needs enemies?
    
    Leslie 

    re:.40
    
    What you call unproductive I call optimistic.

    What, Mike?  You think a marriage is supposed to be enjoyed rather than
    endured?  Boy, are you *ever* optimistic.

    re.36
    
    Although our situation didn't involve an "romanitc affair", we did
    encounter the same sort of situation where our needs weren't met but
    yet we still loved each other.  It was wierd.  We fought. We separated. 
    We considered custody rights.  Finances were considered.
    
    And after all that, we're together.  Our unity is different than
    before that tremendous hurdle. I've come to accept these episodes of
    anger and disagreements.  Also, I've come to understand that love comes
    in many ways.  
    
    I'll probably never understand just what love is exactly suppose to be,
    but it has helped me to know that there isn't any suppose to be.
    
    Seems to me that if after all the fighting, arguing and anger; and the
    person you love still wants you and vice versa then maybe that's all I
    can ask for.
    
    cindy