Conference quark::human_relations-v1

    I believe King was arrested for speeding. He was also drunk at the
    time, and did initially resist arrest. The issue was whether, after
    having gotten him handcuffed and on the ground, the police had any
    justification for continuing to beat him; the jury apparently thought
    that they did.
    
    Now, I'm aware that the police are the ones who risk getting injured or
    killed if they guess wrong about whether a suspect has been
    sufficiently restrained, but this case definitely seemed excessive to
    me. And of course the racism angle highlighted the whole situation; we
    have no way of knowing whether those officers would have behaved in the
    same way if King were white or if the police were black, or whether, in
    that case, the jury's decision would have been different...
    
    -b

    Listening to the local news radio, it was believed that the locals were
    trying to control a man who was doing PCP. This substance gives the
    user the streinght of 10 men. And it was taking all of the above to
    keep Mr. King under control. For they had tried to do such and were
    failing until you saw the publicly released part of the tape.
    I am not in judgement of this at the present time. I know that cops
    have allot on the line when they just step out of their cars to
    give Mr. Joe Public a speeding ticket. And get a large hole in their
    bellies over a $20 ticket. 
    
    My questions that I am trying to find is if Mr. King was on PCP, was
    he drug tested? IF Not why? 

    	According to news accounts I've heard, King was drug tested and he
    was NOT on PCP.
    
    larry

    I must say that I have to agree with your letter.  Although I can
    understand the emotion behind the behavior, it is hard for me to
    understand the senseless acts of violence being committed "in the name
    of Rodney King."  I tend to think the people are going about it in 
    the wrong manner.  (I could however be very wrong, this is just my 
    humble opinion.)  These people ARE getting world-wide coverage, so they 
    must be doing something right.  All I know is that I certainly would
    not want to be in L.A. in the near future!
    
    The image of "Officer Friendly" certainly has changed due to this
    recent event.  In fact just last evening I was pulled over because of a
    head-light being out.  I actually thought to myself, "Gee, doesn't this
    guy have anything better to do than to pull me over...like beat
    someone?!"  The thought of this statement made me sick to my stomach. 
    I couldn't believe that I thought that.  Police are supposed to be 
    there to help aren't they? ...to make us feel safe and secure?
    
    Fortunatly there are good cops out there, UNfortunatly they don't seem to
    receive as much press.  Only the bad things seem to be newsworthy! 
    That is as sad a reflection on our society as is this verdict!!  I can
    only hope that the people who are legitematly(sp) protesting can get
    something done to overturn this decision!!  The people who are just
    looting and riding on the coattails, deserve what they get.
    
    Kris Poley  

.1>    time, and did initially resist arrest. The issue was whether, after
.1>    having gotten him handcuffed and on the ground, the police had any
.1>    justification for continuing to beat him; the jury apparently thought
.1>    that they did.
    
    Stop!  You say he was hit after he was cuffed?

    Yep. Thats what was seen. He tried to get up after he was cuffed,
    while, believed to be on PCP. L.A. city of angles, angles of Death.

 Wait a minute...I didn't think they had him cuffed at all during the beating..



 Jim

From the accounts I read, King was not cuffed.  He was down on the ground, and
when the police tried to cuff him, he started getting up.  They didn't want
to shoot him, so they beat him until he went down again, and again tried
to cuff him.  He tried getting up again.  This repeated another time or
two.  One of the policemen testified that he thought King might have been
on PCP, as he acted as if he was, and this would indeed be frightening.

In my opinion, we, the public, have only been shown a snippet of the video,
and don't have the information about what the other police were doing and
why they were doing it.  I've heard a lot of comment lately about the
"instant judgement" that the public has formed, and one commentator wondered
why we even bothered with a trial at all if it was so "obvious" that the
police were guilty.

I don't know what the proper verdict was.  I do know that few if any of us
have the necessary evidence to second guess the jury so quickly.

				Steve

    Re cuffs: From the video snip I saw, I thought he was cuffed; he
    appeared to be holding his wrists together in an unnatural position, at
    any rate. However, I'll admit that I did not choose to watch that video
    more than once, and may have gotten it wrong. If the controversy over
    the verdict results in the airing of the entire tape, I'll take a
    better look.
    
    Even so, I'd have thought that, with four or more officers standing by,
    there'd be a limit to the number of blows required to consider a prone
    man "restrained". Again, I don't want the police to be handcuffed
    themselves, but it doesn't do them any good to have people think this
    is acceptable behavior for them...
    
    -b

    I watched CNN last night - as long as my eyes could stay open.  Rodney 
    King wasn't cuffed when they beat him.  However, there is no excuse to
    have beaten him so badly (or at all).  They beat him 56 tims in 81
    seconds!  56 TIMES IN 81 SECONDS!  Yes we the people only saw a little
    of the tape but enough to know that the police were definately out of
    line.  There were 21 cops at the scene - even if King was using drugs
    that could make him stronger (and if that's the case I doubt it would
    make him that much stronger) why then couldn't 2 or 3 cops watch the
    car King was in to keep an eye on the other occupents and the other 18
    cops could of (with no doubt in my mind what so ever) get him cuffed
    without beating him 56 TIMES!  And WHY did the other 17 cops stand
    around and watch the 4 who beat him?  Why didn't some of them - maybe
    even just a few out of the 17 watching, do something to stop the 4 from
    beating this man so badly?  Yes, we only got a snippet of the video BUT
    there is still NO EXCUSE to beat a man 56 times in 81 seconds (black,
    white, green, blue, red, yellow, orange or whatever color he is) when
    these cops are "TRAINED" to be able to handle situations like this
    without getting out of hand.  Those cops should of NOT gotten off. 
    It's very sad what is happening in LA and throughout the other cities
    because of the verdict of this case.  Every picture tells a story. 
    This video told the truth.  56 times in 81 seconds?  Come on, if anyone
    on the jury can justify/ignore that then there is something seriously
    wrong with them. I'm also wondering if the jury was bought off or
    simply scared because of what could happen to them if they didn't come
    up with that verdict.  I'm also wondering what happened to the guy who
    actually took the pictures of the beating.  I hope that the army gets
    in and gets things in order before anyone else gets killed or hurt or
    anything else gets destroyed.  I also hope and pray that Rodney King
    (no matter how bad a man he is or what he has done in his past) gets
    another trial...those cops deserve more than a slap on the wrist.  What
    kind of example does that set for the rest of the "bad cops" in the
    country...if these guys get away with it - then so will alot of other
    cops.  I am still very proud to be an American but right now I'm
    ashamed of our court system.....
    
    Colleen

    Do you mean 56 hits or 56 swings?
    One of the points that the defense made that was apparently influential
    was that many of the swings missed.
    

    I think we need to wait a bit before reacting to what many feel was a
    very bad decision.
    Wait until the administrative action concerning the 3 remaining
    officers takes place. The fourth 'officer' -actually a trainee- has
    already been removed from the force. There is substantial belief that at
    least two of these three remaining officers will be fired from the Los
    Angeles police. (The third officer -of THESE three- testified against
    the other three)
    Also wait until the federal inquiry into possible charges of civil
    rights violations has happened. Also wait until the $86,000,000 (?) law
    suit has been processed.
    It looks like the issue is 
    Did they do something stupid and excessive and 'wrong'? rather than
    Did they break state/city law? 
    They may not have broken applicable state laws.
    In any case a jury decided they did not break any applicable state
    laws.
    I feel very comfortable believing the police did something stupid,
    excessive, and WRONG. I hope that a federal trial into civil rights
    violations tries that case.

    re:11
    56 Hits not swings. I don't know HOW many times they missed.  But 
    according to CNN they made contact (watching through the video tape)
    56 times.  And I didn't know it until last night that there were 
    21 police officers there - you can't tell that by the video tape but
    that's how many were on the scene when it all happened.  It's very
    sad - the whole situation is very sad and scarey...I'm very upset
    about the future of our country - it seems as though we're going 
    backwards instead of forwards.....f
    
    /Colleen

    re: .10

>                                             even if King was using drugs
>    that could make him stronger (and if that's the case I doubt it would
>    make him that much stronger) why then couldn't 2 or 3 cops watch the
>    car King was in to keep an eye on the other occupents and the other 18
>    cops could of (with no doubt in my mind what so ever) get him cuffed

    I trust you've never seen anyone on PCP get violent?  I saw one case
    where it took 8 people, most of them very large, strong males, to
    restrain one 140 lb. 18 year old.

    As for using 18 people to handcuff one person - I don't think this
    would work too well.  First of all, it's unlikely you could get
    18 police officers around and in direct contact with one person,
    much less have them do so without getting in each other's way.

    While I have seen no evidence which causes me to believe the jury made
    the correct decision, I also know there is a lot more to consider than
    what was shown in the short videotape segments which were broadcast
    shortly after the incident occurred.

    The video tape was 81 seconds long.  The media CHOSE to show you the
    most violent 15 seconds of Mr. King being beat.  What they did not show
    was his resisting arrest - AND - as soon as he stopped trying to move
    around and put his hands up to be cuffed - they immediately stopped and
    cuffed him.  He led the police on a merry chase through the streets of
    LA at excessive speeds, weaving back and forth.  When they finally got
    him pulled over and out of the car - he lunged at one of the policemen.
    He was also hit with the Taser gun 4...*4* times...and it didn't even
    phase him.  The SAME type of reaction as someone of PCP would
    demonstrate.
    
    Now - understand one thing - I DO NOT condone the amount of force they
    used...but let's get one thing straight folks - Mr. King WAS NO ANGEL.
    I'm getting sick of hearing this guy made a martyr - and I don't just
    mean here.  I don't agree with the verdict - but this guy was far from
    an innocent.
    
    The sad part is over 35 people are dead in LA alone...that doesn't even
    take into affect Atlanta, Seattle, Tampa etc. etc..  Looters destroying,
    robbing, injuring.....THAT'S the truely disgusting part.  And that
    makes me more sick than the verdict.
    
    IMHO
    

RE:     <<< Note 1255.15 by CSLALL::DOUGHERTY "So much for dreams..." >>>

   > The video tape was 81 seconds long.  The media CHOSE to show you the
   > most violent 15 seconds of Mr. King being beat.  What they did not show
   > was his resisting arrest - AND - as soon as he stopped trying to move
   > around and put his hands up to be cuffed - they immediately stopped and
   > cuffed him. 

     Court TV, however, showed the entire 81 seconds, including how he stopped
     trying to move around and STILL received blows.

   > He led the police on a merry chase through the streets of LA at excessive 
   > speeds, weaving back and forth.  

     Ah, the 115-mph Hyundai Excel story again...  There's a good reason to beat
     the snot out of a citizen.

   >When they finally got him pulled over and out of the car - he lunged at 
   >one of the policemen.

     "Lunged"...good word for inciting emotion.  Tell me, did he hit or 
     otherwise injure any officers, or did he simply walk toward one of them?
 
   >Now - understand one thing - I DO NOT condone the amount of force they
   >used...but let's get one thing straight folks - Mr. King WAS NO ANGEL.

     Again, that is no reason to beat a citizen.

   >I'm getting sick of hearing this guy made a martyr - and I don't just
   >mean here.  I don't agree with the verdict - but this guy was far from
   >an innocent.
    
     ...and I'm getting sick and tired of the excuses being made by some people
     for the beating this man received.  Those police officers were far from
     innocent.

     Furthermore, I don't think RK is being made a martyr.  In fact, it doesn't
     seem to matter who he is.  It is the overall concept of what happened in
     Simi Valley.  It could have been Joe Schmoe instead of Rodney King and the
     same reaction would have occured.

   >The sad part is over 35 people are dead in LA alone...that doesn't even
   >take into affect Atlanta, Seattle, Tampa etc. etc..  Looters destroying,
   >robbing, injuring.....THAT'S the truely disgusting part.  And that
   >makes me more sick than the verdict.
    
     Those crimes are not entirely related to the RK beating verdict.  The 
     criminals involved are simply taking advantage of an understandable rage 
     to do what they wanted to do.  A number of those killed were killed by 
     law officers and property owners who believed that they were defending 
     their property.  The true story on those murders will probably never be 
     told, and the unwise will attribute any unsolved murders to the rioters.
     The sad part is that there would probably never have been a serious
     attempt at a Federal Civil Rights investigation unless this chaos had
     occurred.  Each of these travesties of injustice seems to be a test of 
     what the people will accept without exploding.  Armchair reviewers of this
     situation think the reaction is to the one incident of the RK beating, but
     those who are enraged know that it is about an entire system of this type
     of blatant disregard for the rights of an entire segment of Americans.  

                                       Greg

    Greg,
    
    Let's get one thing straight right off the bat.  I'm am NOT defending
    the police and the amount of violence they used against RK.  I was JUST
    as OUTRAGED at the not guilty verdict.  I am not ans was not defending
    what they did. 
    
    Now....
    
    It's rather convenient that you didn't quote the PCP comment that I
    included, ain't it?  And did YOU see all 81 seconds of the tape? 
    Infact, from what you wrote - did we see the same tape?  There wasn't
    more than one second where he WASN'T moving.  "Walk" towards one of the
    policemen????  Sweetheart - if that's your idea of walking, then I'd
    have to jog to keep up with you.  The high speed chase wasn't just for
    a block or two...he led them on a chase for (pardon my failing memory,
    I don't remember EXACTLY how long it was) quite a while.  And no - it
    doesn't give them the right to use that kind of violence either.  He
    resisted arrest...he shook off *4* hits with the taser gun. (Have you
    ever accidently gotten a shock from an electrical outlet?  Ya know how
    that makes ya feel?  A Taser gun is 50 times worse.) And he kept right
    on going.
    
    > a number of those killed were killed by law officers.
    
    I wouldn't be surprised.  But the cold blooded beating of those two
    truck drivers who were pulled out of there rigs....and a number of
    other deaths...were by people who were doing it for the bloody sake of
    doing it.  The one truck driver with the long blonde hair is still
    alive, but God only knows the brain damage he'll suffer....the 2nd poor
    driver died.
    
    You want to blame someone?  Blame the prosecution for the rotten job
    they did, because that's why the case was lost.  And why didn't RK
    testify?  If that had been me being beaten - you bet your sweet butt I
    would have been on that stand pointing fingers at who had done the
    beating.
    
    I sincerely hope that the Feds try those 4 on civil rights charges, and
    I hope they get whatever the maximum sentence is that can be handed out
    for it.  But I can also understand how the four could react (and DON'T
    read this as my condoning what happened - because I do not) if they
    thought that RK was on PCP.  Have you ever dealt with someone while
    they were under the influence of it?  I saw a 110 lb. 18 year old girl
    take down two men who were both 200+ pounds whilst under the influence
    of it.  It took 4 guys 200+lbs. - one holding an arm, leg, etc. and then
    a 5th guy sitting on her stomach before they finally got her under
    control.  Mr. King was and is alot bigger than that.  And - FWIW - I
    was one of the ones who was behind him 100% until after the verdict had
    been turned in, and I heard more of what had gone on and seen more of
    the tape.  I thought he was just some poor slob who was in the wrong place
    at the wrong time, and had run into a group of power hungry cops.  I
    changed my opinion.
    
    Oh yeah...and one more thing...the two guys in the car with him didn't
    resist at all.  When they got out of the car, the immediately put their
    hands up and neither one was hit or beaten.
    
    I'm not trying to change you mind, and frankly dear, I don't care if
    you agree with me or not.  I respect your right to your own opinion, 
    respect mine.
    
    Have a nice day.
    
    Lynne
    

    Let me see if I have got this straight. If you are arrested by the
    police in Los Angeles and you in any way resist arrest they are
    entitled to beat you to the ground with nightsticks and then kick you
    while you are down. This is what is called not using excessive force.
    Any way the police can always claim that they thought you were on
    drugs at the time.
    
    Of course this is only legal if you are black and the four policemen
    are white. 
    
    What a wonderful legal system you have over there. 
    
    However having watched the rioting on my T.V. I think that some of the
    population are wanting some changes made, and it would appear that the
    law makers have ignored this too long.

    Jamie.
                                                     

    I give up.....okay - towel's been thrown in.  Yup - entry .18 sums it
    up just wonderfully.  Right on the ol' nose.
    
    Happy?
    

    Another thought...
    If the policemen had been found guilty and sentenced to prison, they
    would have been quickly "disposed of" by the prison population. I wonder if
    the jury somehow had that in mind...
    
    Hopefully, a federal trial will find them guilty and put them into a
    federal prison where they would have much less to fear in the way of
    retribution.
    
    				herb

    I do not know what happens in American prisons, but in British prisons
    "prisoners at risk" that is ex policemen, child molesters, police
    informers, etc. are kept apart from the rest of the prisoners.

    I think that the jury were swayed by one or more of your fast talking
    lawyers who convinced them that they could not trust the evidence of
    their own eyes. However they most obviously did not sway the mass of
    the population, nor those who rioted at such a gross miscarriage of
    justice.

    Jamie.

    .14> As for using 18 people to handcuff one person - I don't think this
       > would work too well.  First of all, it's unlikely you could get
       > 18 police officers around and in direct contact with one person,
       > much less have them do so without getting in each other's way.
    
    So... you're saying 18 is *too many* people to handcuff one person?! 
    Yeah... that's the ticket!  The problem was, too many cops showed up! 
    There was no recourse but to beat the $%^& out of Mr. King!
    
    Leslie

    re: .22
    
>    So... you're saying 18 is *too many* people to handcuff one person?! 
    
    Yes, I do believe that's what I said.

    re:.20
    
    Good point.
    
    And so is the one that Chief Gates brought up on 60 minutes last night:
    given the riots after the "not guilty" verdict, if the 4 police officers
    are tried on possible civil rights violations, how much pressure will
    the jury be under to return a guilty verdict, knowing that a second "not
    guilty" might lead to even more unrest?

Date: 4 May 92 07:26
 
	LOS ANGELES (UPI) -- The following is a tentative list of 50 riot-
related deaths compiled by the Los Angeles County Coroner's Office:
                              ------
	50. An unidentified Hispanic man in his 20s was shot and killed
            Sunday May 3 by National Guardsmen at the corner of Vermont Ave. 
            and Pico Boulevard.

	49. A dead person, sex and age unknown, was found the morning of May 3 
            near the southbound San Diego Freeway off-ramp to San Fernando 
            Mission Road.

	48. A black woman, age 24, died at Daniel Freeman Hospital May 2 at
            11:23 a.m. of gunshot wound suffered at 2137 E. 115th St.

	47. An unidentified Hispanic man, age 23, was shot to death at 2:12
            a.m. May 3 in Baldwin Park.

	46. An unidentified man was found shot to death in the early morning
            hours of May 3 at 1279 Los Robles Avenue in Pasadena by police
            responding to a disturbance call.

	45. The unidentified body of a man was found May 2 at 2 p.m. in a
            burned-out Pep Boys auto parts store at 58th Street and 
            Vermont Avenue.

	44. An unidentified Hispanic woman in her 60s died May 2 at 12:12 p.m. 
            of a gunshot wound suffered at 7608 Compton Avenue.

	43. An unidentified black woman killed in a hit-and-run accident at
            the Harbor Freeway at Slauson Boulevard May 2 at 12:22 a.m.
	
        42. An unidentified black man died of gunshot wounds May 1 at 2:01 a.m. 
            at Daniel Freeman Hospital in Inglewood.

	41. Ernest Neal Jr., 27, a black man, died of gunshot wounds April 30
            at 11:45 p.m. at Martin Luther King Jr.-Drew Medical Center. He 
            was shot at Western Avenue and 92nd Street.

	40. Deandre Harrison, 17, died of gunshot wounds April 30 at 12:30 a.m.
            at Martin Luther King-Jr. Medical Center. The shooting took place at
            114th Street and Century Boulevard.

	39. An unidentified black male was shot to death on May 1 sometime
            after 6 p.m. near the Harbor Freeway and Florence Avenue.

	38. An unidentified white man, age 68, was strangled during looting at
            11690 Gateway Ave. He was taken to UCLA Medical Center.

 	37. An unidentified burn victim, a Hispanic man, was found at 2882
            Ninth Street May 1 at 9:22 a.m.

	36. An unidentified Hispanic man died April 30 10 p.m. at County-USC
            Medical Center of gunshot wounds.

	35. Gregory Davis, 15, died April 30 at 8:36 p.m. at County-USC
            Medical Center of gunshot wounds. The shooting took place at Vernon
            Avenue and 43rd Street.

	34. Meeker Gibson, 35, died May 1 at 4:45 a.m. of gunshot wounds. The
            shooting took place at Holt and Lorraine in Pomona.

	33. An unidentified burn victim, a Caucasian male, was discovered May 1 
            at 3:04 a.m. at 3526 Winslow Drive.

	32. An unidentified black man was killed at 614 S. Locust in Compton.

	31. An unidentified Hispanic man died April 30 at 8:21 p.m. at
            California Medical Center. He was attacked at 2034 W. Pico Blvd.

	30. Juan A. Tineda, 19, died April 30 at 11:18 p.m. at County-USC
            Medical Center.

	29. An unidentified Hispanic man, age 25, was shot to death May 1 at
            12:52 a.m. at Vermont Avenue and Santa Monica Boulevard.

	28. Kevin Evanahen, 24, a male Caucasian, died May 1 at 1:10 a.m. He
            died while trying to put out a fire at a check-cashing store at
            Inglewood Boulevard at Braddock street.

	27. An unidentified Hispanic male, age 27, died April 30 at an unknown 
            time at 4404 S. Western Avenue of gunshot wounds in an officer-
            involved shooting.

	26. An unidentified Hispanic man, age 20, died at 10:05 p.m. in an
            officer-involved shooting at 2009 W. Sixth St.

	25. Edward Song Lee, 18, of Los Angeles, died April 30 at 11:30 p.m.
            The Asian man was killed in a gun battle at Third and Hobart 
            streets.

	24. An unidentified black man, age 26, was killed April 30 at 8:52 p.m.
            at Sunset Boulevard and Kingsley Ave.

	23. An unidentified Hispanic man died April 30 at 5 p.m. from gunshot
            wounds suffered at 10720 Burin Avenue in the Lennox area.

	22. Matthew Haines, 32, died April 30 at 6:55 p.m. of gunshot wounds
            suffered at Martin Luther King Jr. Boulevard and Rhea Street in 
            Long Beach.

	21. An unidentified Hispanic man, 49, died April 30 at 5:32 p.m. of
            gunshot wounds suffered while in a car at Third Street and Vermont
            Avenue.

	20. Patrick Bettan, 30, a Caucasian man, died April 30 at 5 p.m. of
            gunshot wounds suffered at 2740 W. Olympic Blvd.

	19. An unidentified male Hispanic died April 30 at 5:06 p.m. at 16th
            Street east of Central Avenue.

	18. An unidentified Asian man, age 25, died at Charter Suburban
            Hospital in Compton on April 30 at 3:25 p.m. of gunshot wounds.

	17. An unidentified Caucasian man, age 45, died April 30 at 2:41 p.m.
            from injuries suffered at Slauson and Seventh avenues.

	16. Jose L. Garcia Jr., a 15-year-old Hispanic boy from Los Angeles,
            died April 30 at 1:35 p.m. of gunshot wounds suffered at Fresno and
            Atlantic Avenue.

	15. Edward Travens, a 15-year-old Caucasian boy from Mission Hills,
            died April 29 at 9:26 p.m. from gunshot wounds suffered at Workman 
            and San Fernando Road.

	14. An unidentified black man was found dead April 30 at 12:30 p.m.
            at Rosecrans Avenue and Chester Avenue of gunshot wounds in Compton.

	13. An unidentified black man, age 21, died April 30 at 10:07 p.m. at
            78th and San Pedro Streets of gunshot wounds.

	12. Arturo Miranda, a 20-year-old Hispanic man, died April 29 9:30 p.m.
            of gunshot wounds suffered at 120th Street and and Central Avenue.

	11. An unidentified 29-year-old black man died April 29 11:12 p.m. at
            Daniel Freeman Hospital in Inglewood from injuries suffered when 
            he fell from the rear of a truck.

	10. Elbert Wilkins, a 33-year-old black man, died April 30 at 12:10
            a.m. of gunshot wounds suffered at 92nd Street and Western Avenue.

	9. Lewis Watson, 18, died April 30 at 8:23 p.m. of gunshot wounds
           suffered at Vernon and Vermont Avenues.

	8. Dwight Taylor, a 42-year-old black man, died April 30 at 8:46 p.m.
           of gunshot wounds suffered at 467 W. Martin Luther King Jr. 
           Boulevard.

	7. An unidentified white man, age 45, died April 30 at 12:25 a.m. of
           gunshot wounds suffered at 102nd Street and Avalon.

	6. An unidentified black man, age 31, died April 30 at 12:15 p.m. of
           gunshot wounds suffered at 11322 Alvarado Boulevard.

	5. Jackson Dennis, a 38-year-old black man, died April 30 at 12:15 a.m.
           of gunshot wounds suffered at 11322 Alvarado Boulevard.

	4. An unidentified black woman, age 38, died April 30 at 12:15 a.m.
           in a traffic accident at Santa Monica Boulevard and Seward Avenue.

	3. Jerel Channel, 25, a black man, died April 30 at 12:15 a.m. in a
           traffic accident at Santa Monica Boulevard and Seward Avenue.

	2. Darnell Mallory, 18, of Los Angeles, a black man, died April 30 at
           12:15 a.m. in a traffic accident at Santa Monica Boulevard and 
           Seward Avenue.

	1. Eduardo Vela, 34, a Hispanic male, died 4-29 at 9:37 p.m. of
           gunshot wounds suffered at 5142 W. Slauson Ave.

>    And so is the one that Chief Gates brought up on 60 minutes last night:
>    given the riots after the "not guilty" verdict, if the 4 police officers
>    are tried on possible civil rights violations, how much pressure will
>    the jury be under to return a guilty verdict, knowing that a second "not
>    guilty" might lead to even more unrest?

     Gates is good at that "spin" stuff.  

     Perhaps the jury will be under as much pressure as the Simi Valley Jury
     was under to NOT convict a police officer.

                                      Greg

    	From what I've seen of the video, it sure looked like a crime.
    However, I've also realized that I haven't seen everything, and don't
    have all the facts that the jury did.  I can only hope there were
    things in there which helped sway them, and that there was nothing
    based on race.  I still can't imagine what else could have been brought
    up that would justify a beating like that, though.


    	Something that's very easy to do is to forget that police officers
    are *human* as well; I often find myself thinking that because they're
    Police, they must be above a lot of things.  Ideally that would be true
    but of course it doesn't really work that way.  I'm not saying this
    condones anything, but simply pointing out how often they're put up on
    a pedestal and how wrong it is to do that.  The type of policeperson
    you run into will depend on the type of person behind the badge --
    there are good ones and bad ones.


    	The truly sad part about the rioting is that they're only hurting
    themselves and their cause.  They're burning and killing in their own
    neighborhoods, and scaring business and jobs away.  If they'd protested
    peacefully, the same message would have gotten across without the
    negative impact of the killing and burning.


    	Yes, the "bad" news is considered the best news.  The more gruesome
    the better.  It's to the point that there are days or even weeks when I
    don't bother to watch the news because of this.  There's only so much a
    person can take.  It's kinda like Hollywood's preoccupation with the
    horror/thriller films; it seems to be what's selling so they keep
    cranking them out.


    	Yes Jamie, we in America certainly have our problems.  However, I
    can't think of a country that doesn't have it's share of problems.  All
    in all, I still haven't found anyplace I'd rather live.


    Brian

        <<< Note 1255.27 by BROKE::BNELSON "Keep the candle burning" >>>
<    	The truly sad part about the rioting is that they're only hurting
<    themselves and their cause.  They're burning and killing in their own
<    neighborhoods, and scaring business and jobs away.  If they'd protested
<    peacefully, the same message would have gotten across without the
<    negative impact of the killing and burning.

     I'm guessing that you believe what the newscasters are telling you????

     But who are "they" where are "their" neighborhoods?

     The media has focused on South Central Los Angeles - but the looting
     and fires took {please be past tense} place all over Los Angeles COUNTY!
                                                                      ^^^^^^
     This includes neighborhoods in Hollywood, Long Beach, West Los Angeles,
     the San Fernando Valley, Culver City {anyone visited LAO?}, etc..  
     Communities that many of our Digital employees make their homes.....
     I can show you a count by city and zip code! 

     The people doing the looting were as ethnically diverse as the 
     neighborhoods being ravaged.

     I have lived in Southern California for the all of my 36 years.  I can 
     remember the Watts riots of 1965.  That appeared to be a black/white 
     confrontation.  The first two hours of rioting on Weds of last week may 
     have began with a black/white confrontation - but the rest is a tragic 
     mystery to many of us.


     Please pray for peace and healing for our entire community.

     Rochelle
     

     

Thanks for the information, Rochelle.  You're right, I guess I pretty much
assumed that the majority and the worst of the burning/looting was concentrated
in specific areas.  I knew there were things happening all over L.A., but I
guess I thought it was more sporadic.  Hmm, now that I think of it I should
have known better: the Clippers/Lakers games were moved, and I know the Forum is
in Inglewood so that should have clued me in.  Just didn't stop to think.


As for healing in your community, I agree.  However, I think a very good case
could be made for some more healing to take place all over the world.  It seems
to me that this is not a localized phenomena.


Brian

As printed in the 30 April edition of the Ventura Star-Free Press...

Juror No. 1 - Christopher Morgan - 43 white male, Simi Valley, married,
              service technician for Pacific Bell.  His brother is a
              retired LAPD Sergeant.

Juror No. 2 - Virginia Loya - 40, Hispanic female, Saticoy, married,
              housekeeper at Ventura Medical Center.  Formerly worked
              as security guard at a jewelry manufacturer, and favors
              gun control.

Juror No. 3 - Thomas Gorton - 50, white male, Piru, divorced, park
              ranger for the United Water Conservation District.
              Member of the National Rifle Association.

Juror No. 4 - Amelia Pigeon - 39, Filipino-American, Simi Valley,
              married, nurse at the Olive View Medical Center in
              Sylmar.

Juror No. 5 - Anna Whitting - 54, white female, Ventura, divorced,
              works as a printer.

Juror No. 6 - Charles Sheehan - 65, white male, Camarillo, married,
              retired teacher who served in the U.S. Navy as a shore
              patrol officer.  He favors gun control and participates
              in Neighborhood Watch.

Juror No. 7 - Kevin Siminski - 38, white male, Thousand Oaks, married,
              computer programmer.  Twenty years ago, he was stopped by
              police and taken to jail because he fit the description
              of a robbery suspect, and was held briefly for traffic
              warrants.

Juror No. 8 - Henry King - 49, white male, Santa Paula, married, senior
              cable splicer for Southern California Edison.  He is a
              member of the National Rifle Association.

Juror No. 9 - Gerald Miller - 59, white male, Camarillo, married,
              retired Ventura County mental health worker.  He served
              a year during the 1950's as an Air Force military police
              officer.

Juror No. 10 - Alice Debord - 43, white female, Ojai, married, is a
               grounds maintenance worker for the Ventura County
               Community District.  Placed on the jury in midtrial.

Juror No. 11 - Dorothy Bailey (jury forewoman) - 64, white female,
               Camarillo, married and is a program manager for a
               company that contracts with the government to provide
               technical manuals for U.S. Navy.

Juror No. 12 - Retta Kossow - 65, white female, Ojai, married, retired
               real estate broker, also a volunteer at a senior center.
               She is a member of the National Rifle Association.

    If this shows the broad cross-section of the Community, then I am not
    really surprised about the verdict!
    
    There seems to be rather a lot of similarity in their backgrounds,
    don't you think?
    
    And how can you possibly "add" a juror half way through a trial without
    starting all over again?
    
    The British legal system is far from perfect, but this situation would  
    never have been allowed to happen over here.
    

    re: the added mid-way one.
    
    If it's the same as here in MA....they have people on stand by to take
    a juror's place should one become sick or whatever.  They have to keep
    up with the proceedings in case they're needed.  I don't know if this
    was the case in CA - I didn't hear about a juror getting sick and being
    replaced...did anyone else?
    

    It seems to me that officers should be trained in procedures for
    restraining an individual resisting arrest.  There should be a plan and
    strategy that would be considered the most effective.  From my
    perspective that plan would include subduing and handcuffing the
    individual in a standing position.  It would seem that the maximum
    number of individuals required would be five.  
    
    It would seem to me that it would be acknowledged that many individuals
    committing crimes would be under some influence, that they may not
    respond to orders to remain still.  It would seem to me that repeated
    blows and the resulting pain could result in an individual reacting 
    instinctively rather then with reason.
    
    It would seem to me that any observance of our police officers in
    action would reflect training, procedures and skill.  
    
    We observed mayhem in that tape, the whole tape and portions of that 
    tape.

    One wonders how the officers would have acted had they known their
    performance was being recorded for posterity.

    A quick question. How does the murder rate over the last few days
    compare with the regular murder rate for a similar period in L. A.

    Jamie.

>     A quick question. How does the murder rate over the last few days
>     compare with the regular murder rate for a similar period in L. A.

    I read somewhere that there are normally about 10-15 murders per 
    day (can anyone confirm that?  It sounded kinda high to me).  If 
    that's true, then the riots were only twice or three times the 
    average...
    
    /Mitch.
    (of course, that's still unacceptable!)
    

    I am totally disgusted by both the verdict and the violence that
    followed.  What I can't understand is, doesn't the prosecution
    also have some say in who is chosen for the jury?!?  From what I saw
    of the list in the previous note, the jury seemed to be a bit one
    sided.  It now doesn't surprise me as much that didn't see the officers
    were guilty (in my opinion).
    
    Marie

RE:        <<< Note 1255.36 by PROXY::HOPKINS "All one race - Human" >>>

    >I am totally disgusted by both the verdict and the violence that
    >followed.  What I can't understand is, doesn't the prosecution
    >also have some say in who is chosen for the jury?!?  From what I saw
    >of the list in the previous note, the jury seemed to be a bit one
    >sided.  It now doesn't surprise me as much that didn't see the officers
    >were guilty (in my opinion).
    
     The prosecution has limited ability to affect the make-up of the jury,
     but that was largely decided by the judge who changed the venue to 
     Simi Valley.  The available pool of jurors there was rather homogeneous, 
     and did not allow for much adjusting.

     Also recall that the Supreme Court recently ruled that jurors cannot be 
     disallowed on the basis of race.  This means that the venue is the 
     primary decision which affects the composition of a jury.  

                                        Greg

>     What I can't understand is, doesn't the prosecution
>     also have some say in who is chosen for the jury?!? 
    
    I was on federal jury duty 2 years ago (oddly enough, on a police 
    brutality charge), and we were scrutinized by both the 
    prosecution and the defense.  However, the scrutiny was not as 
    rigorous as I would have expected it to be.  Basically, they 
    asked questions to all the jurors with nebulous topics like "do 
    you have any personal feelings about the police department" and 
    stuff like that.  Anyone that answered spoke to both lawyers and 
    was either sent back to the jury box or dismissed.
    
    I worked the case (we deliberated for 3 days), and then was 
    called back for another police brutality case just before 
    Christmas.  This time, they dismissed all the people that worked
    on the previous case.  I found jury duty very difficult work... 
    we had a good mix of people from all over the state, doing 
    different jobs and with different backgrounds.  I don't look 
    forward to doing it again, but of course I will if summoned to.
    
    /Mitch.
    

It is my understanding that only two jurors were from Simi Valley. And even if
they were all from Simi Valley, aren't we getting back to "our neighborhoods"
and "their neighborhoods"? Just a thought.

If anyone should be critized for the outcome of this
verdit, it is my opinion that it should be the prosecuting attorney. It needs
to be pointed out that only one charge against one police officer ended in a
hung jury, all other charges the officers were acquitted from. Twelve people,
from twelve different backgrounds, different perceptions, different experiences,
different religions, different prejudices, different lives all came to the same
conclusion. So what is this saying? The defense did one h*ll of a job? The
prosecution didn't do their job? The police officers weren't guilty? The
police officers were tried and convicted in the media? Twelve people from
different backgrounds are all racist?

And just why didn't RK take the stand? I live in California, and I still
haven't heard.

FYI-
In an telephone interview with one of the jurors, she stated that the jury
felt RK was in control of the situation the whole time. That he could've
stopped the beating simply by submitting to arrest. And in fact, the minute
he put his hands behind his head, he was handcuffed, and the beating stopped.
I for one, am resentful of the media for not showing all of this tape. In fact
only after the riots, on one newschannel, did they show the entire tape. What
was their point in not showing the whole thing?

    I don't know if it's the same in CA as it is here (again), but I was 
    called for jury duty.  I didn't get picked, but both sides - defense
    and prosecution could refuse 6 jurors each without any reason.
    
    fwiw,
    

    >I don't know if it's the same in CA as it is here (again), but I was 
    >called for jury duty.  I didn't get picked, but both sides - defense
    >and prosecution could refuse 6 jurors each without any reason.
    
     ...which would not have made much difference in that community.  The
     12 they picked were rather similar, and the next 12 probably would be
     rather similar.  

     Does anyone know if any potential jurors were refused?

                                   Greg

   I got this message from one of my distribution lists this morning.  It 
   had a looooong string of forwards, and it originated outside of Digital.

   It seems that the media didn't do us any favors on this one...

     -- JLH


<many forwards deleted>
   . 
   . 
   .  
  
  I watched most of the trial on Court TV and learned alot about the case
  that didn't come out in any of the news reports tonight.  It was not as
  "open and shut" as it appears if you only look at the clip most of the
  news programs show.  I think the media is responsible for some serious    
  misunderstandings underlying the violence we're seeing.
  
  The tape runs 81 seconds but the first part, where King attacks the police,
  has rarely been shown.  Even tonight, one news program reported the tape
  runs 60 seconds and gave the impression King was a motorist dragged out
  of his car and beaten for no good reason.
  
  In fact, King was stopped for driving at speeds in excess of 115 MPH and
  "weaving."  I think most people know he led police on a chase and was 
  later tested at over twice the legal limit for alcohol.
  
  Initially, King and his two passengers assumed the "felony arrest position",
  face down on the ground, arms out.  Police regard drivers who evade them
  as "suspected felons" and take extra precautions.  Testimony showed there
  were very few cases of evaders who did not have outstanding felony warrants.
  
  Without warning, King springs to his feet and attacks officer Powell. This
  happens in 6 frames on the tape and is called a "super human feat" by the
  defense.  It causes the officers to believe King was under the influence
  of PCP.  Powell responds by striking King with his baton, possibly in the
  face, possibly on the shoulder.
  
  This is important because the procesecution needs a baton blow to the head 
  at this point to sustain its "Assault with a Deadly Weapon" charge.  All
  other blows on the tape can be seen and all are to the buttocks, legs and
  kidney areas - possibly assault but not deadly.  Apparently the jury 
  accepted the defense that this blow was purely self defense.
  
  Koon then fires a taser but it has no effect on King other than to make
  his "cheeks vibrate" and cause him to "roar like a bear."  The second 
  taser shot has no effect either and Powell strikes King again with his
  baton.  King goes down but then rises up and reaches for his wasteband.
  
  This brings on the first flurry of blows and King goes back down.  The 
  tape shows the officers stop hitting King when he lies still and start
  hitting him again whenever he rises to his hands and knees.  At one point
  he rolls over on his back as is still but the officers keep hitting him,
  claiming his hand is near his waistband again.  That is not apparent on
  the video.
  
  Eventually, King raises his hands over his head, the beatings stop and he
  is handcuffed.  Powell struck a total of 45 blows although 10 to 15 of
  them miss.  Winds strikes King 11 times.  Bressineo (sp) never hits King
  but does kick him, claiming he was trying to push his (King's) shoulders
  down.  It's hard to tell even when the tape is played in slow motion but
  the jury obviously believed it.  Koon doesn't strike King at all but 
  was the commanding officer.
  
  Other interesting things not reported:
  Most of the "police" seen "standing around" on the tape were, in fact,
  School District Police not trained to deal with violent suspects.  LAPD
  policy is that they would not engage such a suspect.
  
  Some of the LAPD police on the scene  but not participating were assigned 
  to guard the two passengers in Kings car.
  
  Doctors at the hospital found King "combative" and required that be be 
  strapped down.  When he was later transfered to the drug treatment center,
  (they thought he was on PCP but tests later were negative), doctors would
  not let ambulance attendents transport him because he was "violent." Police
  took him in a sier.         
  
  Race really didn't enter into the trial much.  In the first place, none of
  the charges had a racial component.  Assault with a deadly weapon does not
  consider motive (ie, racisim) so not much time was spent on that.
  
  The two racial remarks were "...(our last call) was like something out of
  'Gorillas in the Mist" and "I wonder who be the parties."  It's doubtful
  the gorillas remark could stand up as a racial slur even as a hate crime
  and the "parties" remark brought out quite an interesting point.
  
  In order to accept that as a racial slur, one would have to believe blacks
  had difficulty conjugating the verb "to be" which is a racist belief.  The
  prosecuter (a black man) made that point and just left it to the jury saying
  something like "if you believe the language 'who be the parties' identifies
  a certain race then this remark is racist."
  
  The single outstanding charge is "Use of Excessive Force Under Color of 
  Authority" against Powell.  He will surely be re-tried.  All four officers
  will be tried again on Federal charges and also face a civil suit by
  King. (A man who obviously saw millions of dollars evaporate and looked
  like it when he was interviewed.)  For what its worth, 3 of the 4 have
  lost their homes and are financially devastated.  Koon has a book deal.
  
   .
  -- 
  - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
       Bill Moore     billy%anasaz.UUCP@asuvax.eas.asu.edu    (602) 395-1732
  - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
  

    As conflicting media messages drift around, I begin to doubt all
    messages.  This, to me, is one regrettable result of spin, sound bites,
    etc.
    
    

    In CA, the judge does jury selection.

    re.18
    That seems to be the case. I think it was the high speed chase that
    PO'd the cops. Several years ago a 18 year old man lost his head
    (well actually got it shot off by a Woodland Park Colorado cop) after
    a high speed chase when the cop "accidentaly dropped his shot gun which
    discharged hitting the suspect in the head". Cops are(and I know some
    30 of them personaly) on a big power trip and they tend to become very
    indignant at any act of defiance. I once asked one of my cop 'friends'
    what he would do if a citizen exercised his right to remain in the car
    when asked to perform a roadside sobriety test. (BTW- you are giving
    up your 5th amendment right if you do get out) He said " I'd pull
    him out, beat the shit out of him and make him do it anyway"!
    
    The verdict is at best pure BULLS#!T worst case the jury was composed
    of 2 blind men and 10 former klansmen either way justice has
    not been served in my not so humble opinion.
    
    I'd also like to say that wether he pulled right over or sped on for
    20 miles or for that matter what crime (he was not "armed and
    dangerous") he was suspected of dosen't make what happened right.
    I suspect those that argue to the opposite rather enjoyed watching
    one of the "bad guys" get his and thats pretty sick.
    The PCP thread has been proven not to be the case why do some insist
    on even bringing it into the discussion? 
    
    -j
    

    re.19
    I am!
    
    -j

Since when does California allow the judge to select jurors?  When I
served on a jury trial, in San Diego, the jurors were chosen by the
attornies, and it was a long and arduous process.

.47>Since when does California allow the judge to select jurors?  When I
    
    Since Proposition 115 was passed, 2 years ago.

    See PEAR::Soapbox, 574.755, for more details.

     According to ABC, the lone hispanic juror in the Rodney King beating trial
has said that most of the jurors had made up their minds before the evidence 
was presented.  She also said that they gave her a big hassle when she
insisted on voting for conviction on the last charge (the one regarding Powell
which resulted in a hung jury).

                                     Greg

    re: .49
    
    	I didn't see the ABC account but the Boston Globe today gives a 
        different version of the juror's description, saying:
    
    	   "... she felt that when they entered the jury room,  most of
    	    the jurors already had made up their minds."
    
    	
    re:  the media
    
    	I think the media does a terrible job of reporting.  It appears
    	that the media is always trying to dramatize and exagerate 
    	people and events.  I was just amazed by both the beating and the 
        verdict.  Both are beyond my understanding of how this could happen.
    	
    	If the media had chosen to,  they could have informed us about 
    	the lives and attitudes of the police,  the jurors, and Rodney
        King and the people who know him.  If not through direct
        interviews,  than by interviewing people close to these people.
        Instead the media focused on the violence and the indignation.
        The people directly involved in the situation know a whole lot 
        more about the law,  the community, and the police than any 
        one else.  Bet we could all learn a lot more from the local
        community leaders and police officers than we can from the 
    	inteviews with nationally reconized experts or editorials from 
        Andy Rooney.
    
    
    	

    	>If the media had chosen to,  they could have informed us about 
    	>the lives and attitudes of the police,  the jurors, and Rodney
        >King and the people who know him.  If not through direct
        >interviews,  than by interviewing people close to these people
    
    The media did. You're just reading the wrong media.
    
    -roger
    

    <you're just reading the wrong media>
    
    The Los Angeles Times provided very extensive coverage of most matters
    pertaining to the trial.
    
    I believe the actual trial was shown on cable t.v. Court Television
    
    
    
    				herb