Conference quark::human_relations-v1

    
    
    
    was just thinking about Dr. Zhivago......
    you remember, when he comes home from the war to find his home now
    belongs to the communist party and is housing 35 families? Then we
    find that each family is allocated...oh I don't remember...50 meters of
    space, or something equally absurd....
    
    so where were all those people when he was off at War? They were
    sitting around waiting for SOMEONE to take something away from the
    'well off' and hand it to them....
    
    Everyone wants a free ride AND THEY ALL WANT IT OFF OF
    ME..........................................................................................
    
    
    
    (maybe I oughta just go back to bed....!)
    
    cat
    

        Vote Libertarian next election.
        
        Dan

    Well cat you at least have the option of buying an American car or not. 
    Just after the war the British government decided to "protect" the
    British car industry by placing a tariff on the import of cars to the
    UK and certain of the colonies.

    Deprived of the cutting edge of competition the British car industry
    got soft to the point that foreign manufacturers could actually compete
    against a 30% tariff. In the outside world British cars became known as
    the worst possible buy. At home the Auto workers went on strike for
    more and more, leaving the British inndustry in the mess that is is
    when the tariffs finally had to go.

    I suggest that buying an inferior product at an inflated price just
    because it is made in your country is damaging to your country's long
    term economy. In the short term it may shore up the job market but
    sooner or later it will all come home to roost.

    Jamie.

    Being from Europe, but knowing about the Stateside Taxsystem, I think
    your Gouvernment needs to change (everyone is using this word lately)
    the system.
    
    For Example: each community pays ground taxes, some of that money goes
    to the public schools. If one lives in a rich neigbourhood the tax will
    be high and the schools are decent to good, poor neighbourhoods might
    have many unemployed people. Less groundtax is received for this
    community, so less money will be spent on the people living there.
    
    Most of federal taxes stay in D.C. so it is Bush (or whoever comes up
    next) who has to demand more money from those taxes to poor and
    middleclass communities.
    
    But as far as I see, none of the rich folks are interested in giving
    those groups a chance for a better live.
    
    How can education cost money ?!?!
    Over here in Germany schools are for free, and people with a low income
    will receive money from the Gouvernment, which they have to pay back 
    50 % after they finished college or university.
    
    But nevertheless, it is on the people of the United States to make that
    change.
    If you are not satisfied with the Gouvernment you have, go and vote.
    I believe that you are not the only one who has gotten sick and tiered.
    If you just sit back and argue about the situation you will not change
    anything for the better.
    
    Greetings Silvia

    re: .3 (Jamie)
    
         Just to nit a point...about British cars.  That's not the way
    it seems to me.  In the 50's and 60's, they were very much desired.
    Rolls Royce is considered the finest car in the world.  The last two
    decades have been a bit harder as we've watched old classics come
    and go (such as Austin-Healey, MG, Sterling, etc.) but British cars
    aren't usually thought of as shoddy.  I own an XKE, and though they
    are problematic, there is hardly a classier car anywhere...courtesy
    of post WWII Great Britain.  Tariffs notwithstanding, they hardly
    compare to other countries and their vehicles (many American makes,
    Fiat, Seat, Yugo, even early Japanese, etc.)
    
    re: .0 (Catperson)
    
         ...glad you got it off your chest...
    
    
    Frederick
    

I'd really think that this is a topic more relevant to the SOAPBOX conference
than H_R.  If you'd like to turn it into a general discussion on the
concept of making sacrifices, that would be fine, but I'd rather not see
dissertations on "buying American", etc.

			Steve (co-moderator)

Going back to the issue of pay rises or lack of at DEC, we have to make
these sacrifices in order to keep people in employment. OK, so there's a
limit to what we can do. We saw that here in Britain with the move by
the Newpapers out of Fleet Street and the number of jobs that were 
lost then. But here at DEC, OK there have been redundancies, but if we
all insisted on pay rises above what the company could afford, then there
would be a lot more redundancies.

You have to look at your values, and your priorities and decide whether your
personal "greed" is more important than sharing wealth with others less 
fortunate.

I hope you know what I mean!

	Ian

    re .7-
    
    I think what the base note and a LOT of people in the country are
    saying is that the people telling us to tighten our belts are LOOSENING
    theirs. Corporate executives that make 4.5 million $'s have a LOT of
    gall to suggest that we tighten our belts further. 
    
    There is a growing attitude (not large enough to my way of thinking)
    in this country that WE'VE HAD ENOUGH!!
    
    I tell insurance companies, realtors, and anyone else I deal with that
    the product/service they offer is NOT worth that much to me. Consumers
    in this country are a bunch of WIMPS. They accept mediocre service and
    products at high prices.
    
    Ok, obviously this is not true all the time and these are generalities.
    But... the trend continues....
    
    
    Steve

    
    re .7
    
    
    ref >personal greed and sharing wealth with others less fortunate....
    
    less fortunate implies that I am lucky to have the things I do.
    I don't believe that luck has anything to do with it.  I have worked
    very hard, and continue to work very hard, for everything I have. 
    My parents worked very hard, and so did their parents.  It's not
    luck. Luck is winning the lottery and becomming an overnight
    bazillionaire....
    Most middle class people are not 'lucky'. They have sacrificed and
    worked hard (in most cases) to get what they have today.
    
    I don't think that greed has anything to do with it either. I find that
    on my salary, I have to work overtime to get any 'extras' in life. 
    No luck. Work.  
    
    But those who sit back and wait for the bucks to roll in (the filthy
    rich I mean) want me to eagerly pay MORE for LESS so they don't have
    to take a cut in profits (all in the name of BUY AMERICAN) and the
    lazy sit around and complain because the government isn't taking enough
    money from ME to get THEM the extras (I said LAZY, NOT POOR). 
    
    And so I'm stuck in the middle, expecting the be everyones keeper. 
    So, yeah, like the man said on Field of Dreams, WHAT'S IN IT FOR ME???
    
    Is that greed? I don't think so. I am just beginning to feel a little
    like Al Bundy on the beginning of Married with Children.....he's the
    only one in the family with a real job, but he's always broke cause
    he has to dole out the money to everyone else. 
    That sucks.
    
    (I'll shutup after this ONE MORE POINT, I swear!!)
    
    I was just thinking of an example of a farmer in the 'old west' days. 
    He grew enough food to feed his family and not a whole lot more. 
    If things werre then like they are now, he'd find the lazy farmer
    down the road coming by every fall to take half the crops to feed HIS
    family, and the rich farmer (who also didn't do much) complaining 
    cause he didn't sell his crops to buy a new American Made Ox......
    
    cat
    
    
    
    

    Most middle class people are INCREDIBLY lucky to have been born into
    middle class families. 
    A few of them are INCREDIBLY lucky to have been born into poverty with
    the genes, skill, and brains to transcend their origins.
    An INCREDIBLE few somehow develope the drive and other assets necessary
    to boot-strap themselves out of a have-not status.

    
    
    
    .10
    
    I'm not sure I understand what you're saying. I wasn't born into a
    middle class family because of luck. I was born into a lower class
    family because my parents had sex.  Getting pregnant doesn't
    take luck. And now I bust my butt to earn a middle class income.
    Again, I don't see where the luck is at. 
    
    Article in the local paper the other day talked about a women who had two
    kids and has been on welfare for 11 years. She's perfectly able to
    work but hasn't earned a dime on her own in all that time. Does she
    deserve to get some amount of my salary every week for 11 years? 
    
    Is it her 'bad luck' that has kept her lazy for 11 years? 
    Or is it her good luck that she is clothed and fed and sheltered and hasn't
    had to work a day in her life? 
    Again, I don't think it's a matter of luck. If anything, its a matter
    of survival of the fittest, the the fittest are getting really tired of
    breaking their backs carrying around the lazy rich and the lazy
    poor....
    
    cat
    

    Sacrifices....hmmmmm.....very interesting.......you know how we at DEC
    in Germany sacrifice..........
    
    Real easy...........people buy themselves out of the company and the
    next day they start working as contractors.
    Same job, same office..........to me it seems as if the company does
    have enough money.
    
    Silvia

    RE: .9
    
    Yep, that says it for me.
    
    RE: .12
    
    Perhaps you'd care to put that statement into context by explaining
    the employment rights of a permanent Digital employee in Germany, and
    those of a freelance contractor.
    
    I'll save you the trouble for the latter, those rights do not exist.
    
    Laurie.

    Laurie,
    
    that is not true.....
    
    If the contractor has been working for more than 6 month with the
    company he/she is considered a employee.
    If asked to leave the company they have the right to go to the
    Arbeitsgericht --> special court for work cases and file for a
    employment contract.
    Work Laws are not that easy here.
    
    If you have specific questions feel free to ask.
    
    regards Silvia  

I agree with .10

As to .11, well there are always isolated cases one can refer to to try and
prove an opinion. I agree that there will always some who sponge off the
state and are too lazy to get a job, but there are a great many people
out there who really do need support, through no fault of their own. How
we can distinguish between the two is extremely difficult.

Ian

    Well Ian do come to visit Amsterdam. I will personally introduce you to
    as many "isolated cases" who are happily living on the dole as you wish.

    Some of these are Americans who have taken Dutch nationality just so
    they could do it.

    Jamie.

    re .11
    <I'm not sure I understand what you're saying. I wasn't born into a
    <middle class family because of luck. 
    then the sentence ...
    Most middle class people are INCREDIBLY lucky to have been born into
    middle class families. 
    doesn't apply to you
    
    <I was born into a lower class family because my parents had sex. 
    <Getting pregnant doesn't take luck.
    < And now I bust my butt to earn a middle class income.
    <Again, I don't see where the luck is at. 
    sounds to me like the following may apply ...
    "A few of them are INCREDIBLY lucky to have been born into poverty with
    the genes, skill, and brains to transcend their origins."
    the luck being the inheritance of genes, skill, and brains, and
    familial aspirations.
    Or possibly...
    "An INCREDIBLE few somehow develope the drive and other assets necessary
    to boot-strap themselves out of a have-not status."
    (in which case perhaps you are among that inconceivably small number
    who are entitled to hubris, rather than -say- compassion)
    
    <Again, I don't think it's a matter of luck. If anything, its a matter
    <of survival of the fittest, 
    I agree and observe that a good deal of luck is involved in being born
    with the tools/talents that are necessary precursors to being counted
    among the 'fit'

    The new TV series, Listening to America, producted by Bill Moyers, 
    is exploring these issues.  Shown on PBS in the U.S.A.
    
    It's one of the best things on TV.

    RE: .14
    
    I think your definition of contractor and mine are different. A TRUE
    contractor operates a one-man limited company (corporation) and is an
    employee of it. At no time does he/she have any rights as regards
    employment by the client of his company, which in this case is DEC.
    What you're talking about are temporary employees, a different animal
    altogether.
    
    Laurie.

    re.: 14
    
    Now than maybe the definition of TRUE and FALSE got mistaken over here.
    By the way, it is NOT MY definition but Union's definition.
    
    regards Silvia
    

    I love foreign cars, sorry USA!! The foreign ones seem to be built more
    sturdier then the American, when it comes to spending lots of dough, I
    want the most out of it!

    Excusseee ME!  How many of you are really espousing opinions arrived at
    by yourselves and how many are regergitating the somewhat bias
    philosophies of the news media?
    
    >Unions are a thing of a troubled American past. 
     Not necessarily defunct but no longer opperating in the same capacity.
    (Witness, please, Peoria.)
    
    >Yo, people, this is a FREE COUNTRY!  You don't HAVE to buy American. 
    It's simply the advice of economists, who incidently never expected the
    "down-turn" in the economy to last so long.  For that matter, you don't
    HAVE to buy a car, you don't HAVE  to work.  You could go on welfare,
    you'd qualify ( or so you pandering little wimps think), so go ahead,
    Just do it!  Hey, here's a thought ladies, everyone SAYS that you get
    more welfare for having kids, so go ahead get yourself knock-up in the
    process.
    
        Did you know that in order to qualify for welfare you MUST sign
    over to your state of residence any and all owned property, including
    any property which you may own jointly?
    
    	Did you know that the AVERAGE time that a person spends on welfare
    in this country, is only seven months?  Milking the systems? I don't
    think so.
    
    	Did you know that an estimated 60% of all welfare recipients are
    suffering from mental illness and have little or no hope for
    counselling because of the ever-shrinking financial resources for those
    programs?
    
    	I know it's not easy to accept the tax cuts for the rich but you
    live in the only country in the world where you can go on welfare this
    year and dine with the Rockefellers next.  It's all determined by your
    own personal ambition!  Not only that buty we have been this way for
    over two-hundred years!
    
    It ain't easy being chessy.
     
    

.22>     Did you know that in order to qualify for welfare you MUST sign
.22>  over to your state of residence any and all owned property, including
.22>  any property which you may own jointly?
    
    So you apply the day after you sign it all over to someone else
    who holds it for you.
    
    It's easier to abuse welfare than to order a pizza from Domino's.

    re.23
    
    sure do have to trust that someone who you sign it all over too
    
    

    Whom would you trust more?  A stranger or your government?
    
    ed

    I would trust a stranger more then my government.

    re.25
    What's the difference?
    
    -j