Conference quark::human_relations-v1

I'd be very tempted to suggest to Mom that if she wanted to help the 
people who were asking for help (Sister and her husband) that *she* offer to 
put them up rather than put them off on someone else maybe - either it could 
be a valid solution or she may find her arguaments against it have to be 
accepted as applicable to her mothers situation too.

It sounds as if Grandmas only problem is the stairs and she's not too worried
about that herself.. I guess it's only whether it's doing her harm doing the
upstairs and down again trip so often or whether she risks falling anyone 
could justify interfering with....  I hate seeing old people pushed around by
children or grandchildren, they may not earn the right to insist once we're
adults we continue behaving a certain way - but they certainly earn the right 
not to be treated the same way by us (in revenge for having to do what they said 
when we were kids, I wonder at times)

    re: .0
    
         "Mom" sounds very dominating.  Too bad for everyone else.
    Too bad for everyone else, however, for capitulating to her.
    I don't know how your mom can control her mother, but if I were
    your grandmother I'd tell her to f**k off (actually, it should
    have shown up many years ago and if my child acted that way he/she
    would not likely have much interaction in my life---and no
    legal recourse, either.)  Your sibling is needy, and in that neediness
    does not seem to be able or willing to be responsible (and therefore
    is not taking their negative impact into account.)  "Doing what's
    best for them" usually means "doing what's best for *me.*"  That's
    primarily mom, here.  
        I've said it in here before, and I'll say it again.  At some
    point in early life (say, two decades) people need to cut their 
    ties with their parents---as children; parents need to cut their
    ties to their offspring---as children.  There is NO (as in NONE)
    chance to ever be a fully-functional adult as long as the individual
    insists on acting a child or adolescent role.  Similarly, there
    is NO (as in NONE) chance for a grown-up to be a fully-functional
    adult as long as they are left in a critical parent mode.  If 
    both sides cannot agree to break the umbilical cords, then at least
    ONE side must insist on it.  The contract MUST be broken.  If the
    individuals choose to remain bonded, as equal adults at this point,
    then there is no reason to end the relationship...which then becomes
    a different sort of relationship.  
         Situations such as .0 are not likely if this
    separation/responsibility has happened.  Your sibling would not be
    relying on mom to bail her out.  Your grandmother would not be
    reversing roles and allowing her child to become her parent.  And
    you might just have separated yourself from the whole mess and
    told them all to screw themselves.  On the other hand, since you
    do care and are choosing to involve yourself, perhaps you can talk
    to your grandmother to see how she feels...and maybe have her get
    some sort of legal advice on whether or not her daughter has the
    "rights" to do what she's planned.  If not, then take some sort of
    deposition to help guarantee it.  Tell your sister to grow up and
    learn to take life more responsibly.  Tell your mom to let those in
    her life who are adult-aged take responsibility for themselves and
    for her to butt out unless asked...and then only to offer opinions
    or direct help on her own (which impacts no one else.)
       
    Frederick
    

    If Granma is legally competent, there's no discussion - she can live
    wherever and with whomever (or not) she choses, and no one else has a
    say in the matter. How to deal with that within the context of "family"
    is, of course, a different matter entirely, and it sounds as though
    someone is going to have to confront Mom and tell her to back off.
    
    (IMO)  :)

    .3  I would like to suggest that the elderly are usually legally
    competent.  The real issue is that they are extremely vulnerable 
    and it is very easy for loved ones to manipulate them into decisions 
    that are not necessarily based on the good of the elder.
    
    I commend the author of .0 for stepping in and trying to prevent an
    uncomfortable situation for their grandparent.
    
    

    Sounds like your grandmother is doing fine. If your Mom wants to be
    helpful, she may offer her home instead of your grandmother's to your
    little sister. Although personally, your sister and her husband ought
    to have used their time at his Mom's for search for work in other
    areas.
    
    They may not like the work they find, but their relatives should not
    have to carry the burden for longer than what is reasonable.
    
    cindy

    More Info:

    Yes, mom is a very domineering woman that wants to control her
    children's lives.  All four of her children are married and she has yet
    to be invited to a wedding (I was the only one to tell her prior to the
    wedding that I was getting married and followed that up with "and
    you're not invited."  My sisters got married to get out of the house;
    both my brother and I were long out of the house before we got
    married.)

    Grandma is just the opposite and is a non-confrontationalist.  Over the
    years, Grandma has gained a lot of respect as a human by those who know
    her.  Some have suggested that my mom is envious.
    
    RE: .2

    I hear what you are saying with regards to the parent/needy child
    strings needing to be cut.  I doubt if anyone who knows me would say
    that those ties still exist for me (in fact, I have been accused by
    some of going to the other extreme).  My siblings are a completely
    different matter; they are still controlled by mom's purse strings.

    My mom was an only child and my grandmother dotted on her.  Both would
    have benefited if there had been more kids in their family.  Somewhere
    along the line, the parent/child role began to reverse and mom began
    treating Grandma more like a child than an adult.
    
    I personally am getting involved because I don't believe Grandma should
    be railroaded (she's too nice of a persona and doesn't deserve it), and
    if someone was trying to take my home away from me, I would be ticked.
    I'm also the only one in the family that isn't dependent upon mom
    (except Grandma of course).


    I'll fire off my current round of salvos ("Gee mom, Kathy's more YOUR
    responsibility ... she should move in with YOU.")  In the long run, I
    don't picture this as helping my sister (or brother-in-law) to become
    more of an adult, but that's not my problem.

    I'll keep you posted, and thanks,

    - Dave

    Dave,
    
    Yup.  Your grandmother is entitled to continue to live alone in the
    home where she is comfortable.  Your mother should be invited to
    entertain :-) the notion that her own home might be the place to
    put her own daughter.
    
    Out of idle curiosity, I'll ask:  Why doesn't your grandmother
    want the stair-chair (or whatever it's called)?  It sounds like a
    great solution, and she doesn't *have* to use it every time.
    
    						Ann B.

    I'd tell "Mom":
    
    1. Grandma's FINE; leave her alone.  If the stairs start getting to
       her, maybe one of her friends or neighbors could drop by at agreed-
       upon time(s) daily to accompany her.
    
    2. If you feel you must help Kathy & Tony, help them:
       a) Find a part of the country that DOES have jobs (as opposed to
          their no-jobs part of NY, or Cincinnati), and
       b) Finance their move to said location.
    
    Leslie 

    RE: .7

    >Out of idle curiosity, I'll ask:  Why doesn't your grandmother want
    >the stair-chair (or whatever it's called)? 

    I thought it was a great solution too.  I believe Grandma thinks that
    installing it would indicate that she does see a problem and her
    current defense is to say that there isn't one.

    - Dave

    P.S.  The latest is that mom (& dad) were mulling over having Kathy &
    Tony move in with them.  My personal opinion (right or wrong) is that I
    don't care what they do with Kathy, just don't mess with Grandma.

re: 1246.7 & .9? 

>Out of idle curiosity, I'll ask:  Why doesn't your grandmother
>want the stair-chair (or whatever it's called)?  It sounds like a

    I have a clue why her GM may not want a chair lift installed. (Was
    the daughter or granddaughter going to pay for it as a gift?).
    
    The clue I can offer is in viewing may own mother (83 1/2. She
    absolutely refused to leave her home (of 45 years) because it IS HER
    home, and SHE makes the rules there. It is HERS !
    
    Ok, back to the clue ..
    
    People don't like to admit to the possibility of 'losing it' (losing
    their health, their competence, their ability). My mother had a
    stroke in January this year, and is virtually unable to use either
    her left arm or leg .. but insists to the point of anger (if pushed
    to it) that she is perfectly capable of walking on her own .. which
    conflicts with the therapist view that she cannot even stand unaided
    for more than a few moments on parallel bars.
    
    Shortly after getting my mother to the hospital, I met her roommate of
    two days, who was going home following stroke-recovery, with a
    walker, living alone; who would need to negotiate stairs 2 - 4 times
    a day ... but her home and stairs had been modified by therapists,
    with changes help her get around her home. The lady is 89 years old !
    
    For more information on Elder_care issues, check the Elder Care
    Notesfile in:  LBDUCK::CARING_FOR_ELDERS.
    
    As any FYI .. speaking of jobs in Ohio, we had friends who left
    Massachusetts and went to a college town (Oberlin) to find work, and
    have been working there since last fall. This also coincides with a
    recent 'where the jobs are report' which have identified the mid-west
    as a hot (well, warmer) job growth area, along with the mid-eastern
    states (N/S Carolina, Virginia).
    
    Bob
    (back again)