Conference quark::human_relations-v1

         I think you need to repeat verbally to him the reasons
    that you separated in the first place.  He needs to understand
    fully why this isn't working out.  He may love you or feel
    sad the divorce happened in lieu of your children, but that
    doesn't matter.  Speak to him about the root of the problem and
    tell him it won't work.
    
    Bill
    

    With all due respect, I think I would put the swapping-residences-
    weekly option dead last.  All I can see is confusion and chaos and
    lost belongings, maybe even stuff sold out from under you... and if
    he's refusing to leave YOUR apartment now, think how difficult it would
    be to make a real break later.  I think the kids might have a real hard
    time with a yo-yo setup such as I envision with this swapping routine.
    
    Also, I don't see how you'd be saving any money (vs. "separate
    dwellings")--you'd still be paying for the rented room every week.
    
    Easy for me to say, but I'd try to make the clean break now.  Get the
    landlord in on it if you have to; I assume the lease is in your name?
    
    I applaud you for your courage and determination to make the reunion
    work.  But if it isn't working and doesn't show any promise of working
    in the future... remember the saying, "fool an Indian once, it's your
    fault; fool an Indian twice, it's the Indian's fault."  Try not to fall
    for the same old lines (and I do know how easy it is, when you
    WANT to believe them).
    
    Leslie
                                    

    I say break it off, no one should lead a life in misery if one does not
    have too.  Your children will take it hard at first but they will learn
    to adjust in the future. The fair way to do it is give him all
    possessions that belong to him and maybe split up fairly what you two
    baught together, if he is semi understanding you shall be able to make
    a clean break. You need to be settled, and once you are, you will feel
    much better.
    
    Good Luck!

    
    	re .3  I understand what you are saying, but I don't think
    	it's neccessarily true that the kids will take it hard. Sure,
    	it's not easy, but I remember when my mother told me she was
    	asking my father to move out, I was SO RELIEVED. Living with
    	the tension and uncertainty day after day was FAR worse than
    	the prospect of my father leaving. I think it's up to the kids
    	to say if they would prefer that their father move out. If they
    	are old enough, maybe they should have some say in this case?
     

    How about counseling? Things can be worked out that way sometimes. Why
    create more problems for the kids with a second go round with the ol
    'toss daddy in the street routine?' 

>>			I was SO RELIEVED. Living with
>>    	the tension and uncertainty day after day was FAR worse than<
>>    	the prospect of my father leaving. I think it's up to the kids
>>    	to say if they would prefer that their father move out. If they
>>    	are old enough, maybe they should have some say in this case?




	re. -2     I agree!  I felt  that way too.

	     

    re. toss the 'ol dad in the steet.
    
    Hey, I hear what you're saying. And actually, I like that he's so
    adamant about keeping the kids.  I've been single parent for 5 years
    without his support of any kind (for the most part -- off and on).  I
    don't want to make that he's the bad guy, but that is the way I feel.
    
    Anyway, the situation has changed by now. The arguements have escalated
    to such a high intensity that I felt my safety and sanity were in
    jeopardy, not to mention the kids' and their dad.
    
    I really don't want to involve the courts in this again.  It's very
    painful and very expensive. Money I don't even have. I'm hoping that he
    and I can resolve the current situation fairly. 
    
    Presently, since he refuses to vacate the home, I've packed and am
    staying with friends.  They've given me a nice room with no strings
    attached, until I have more certain plans.  So, that's nice.  He's now
    acting single parent, so to speak.
    
    I am see my kids every day, after work or during their activities and
    practices.  And such.  This has only been 3 days.  I feel very strange.
    My mother would never understand my leaving the home without the kids. 
    But, to tell the truth, I want the dad to get a first hand experience
    of what it's like parenting it alone, although I will be contributing
    to the rent and kids' stuff.  I'm not for revenge.
    
    He resents my going to school, all of 5-8 hours per week, because it
    involves writing entertainment news and my getting out and about, which
    he is more than welcome to come with.  He refuses.  So, you see how
    these fights have revolved around.
    
    My fears lie in that should he decide to pursue this in court, to
    obtain custody of our 10 and 8 year old children, since I've left the
    home, the courts may rule in his favor. That scares me to death.
    
    We are on a waiting list for couseling, which I hope he attends.
    
    I appreciate your insight and comments.
    
    cindy 

    I understand your fears about the courts potentially leaning toward
    giving him custody since you might be seen as having "deserted" them.
    
    Naive question du jour: does it cost anything for a restraining order?
    
    I think the kids' father can just "refuse to vacate" all the way out the
    door as he's being *evicted*.  Get the landlord on your side, move back
    into *your* apartment and get him OUT, evicted, his stuff on the street
    and the locks changed.  Don't ask him; tell him, and make sure it happens.
    
    Leslie

    I spoke with a paralegal at a Family Law office. She freely gave me
    some answers and offered help at anytime.  She said, desertion or
    abandonment would really have to be extreme. But, that I should be sure
    to document each time that visit my kids and to be sure that I do so
    often.  Which is absolutely no problem. My kids will even spend the
    night at my little place every so often.  In this case, abandonment
    would seem extremely hard to prove.  I also write the rent checks.
    
    I'm just concerned, because from what I hear California law is
    different in its laws concerning child custody laws vs. Georgia law --
    the state in which I filed divorce.  I would imagine, that anyhow, by
    the time he, (should he even decide to) move back to Georgia, our kids
    will be old enough to make their own decisions anyway.  So, I (and he)
    could be worrying needlessly about their main turf.
    
    Our kids love us both and I know they want us both. So, I'm thinking
    that perhaps (this note writing is quite theraputic in connecting your
    thoughts) rather than making a dramatic scene, (and to have later in life,
     my children resent me for booting their beloved Dad out) I'll just
    continue being the terrific mom that I have, am and always will
    continue to be, either in the home or just a few miles away.
    
    
    
    If and when the time may come, that they are asked to make a permanent,
    (if that truly means anything) decision regarding which home they wish
    to live in, the final decision ends up in their laps anyway.

    Cindy,
    
    	Sorry. I wasnt fully aware of the entire story. Execpt that at the
    base note of what you said. Yep.... I am a custodial daddy too!:) 
    
    Good luck!
    
    George

    re: .8
    
    Restraining orders are obtained by going to court (at least in MA)...
    that's #1.  #2 - they don't do a heck of a lot and usually only wind 
    up making the person the order is against more PO'd.  And, unless 
    your local police station is on the ball...a piece of paper doesn't do
    anything to protect you, not if the person is bound and determined to
    do something to you.
    
    FWIW
    

    
    And sometimes restraining orders are used by a woman to piss off the
    man.  Many women see it and use it as a sign of power.  Many women get
    one and don't really feel threatened at all.
    

    re. 1243.12 (Dwight Berry): would you please provide references and/or
    documentation for your claim that "many women see [restraining orders]
    and use [them] as a sign of power" and "many women get one and don't
    really feel threatened at all."
    
    Thanks.
    Karen

    re:.12
    
    I know a woman who did that.  She claimed her ex- beat her, but that
    she was afraid to press charges.  So she got a restraining order and
    then she started hanging out with HIS friends and would call the cops
    if he stopped by where she was.
    
    Everyone who knew her knew the real story and what she was trying to
    do.  I was one of his friends that she all-of-a-sudden became best
    friends with once she had her court order.
    
    This guy was the nicest guy in the world.  No way did he ever hit her.
    It wasn't his style to hit anybody.  He was always the guy who would
    rather apologize to someone, even if it wasn't his fault.  When we
    caught on to her plan, no one would hang around with her anymore.
    
    Did she feel threatened by him?  Her father was connected and dhe had
    two brothers that made most people look like dwarves.  I don't think
    she felt scared for an instance.

    re.12, .14 Ditto My ex made such claims knowing full well they were
    lies.
    
    re.13 It is very common practice here in Colorado for the woman
    to get a restraining order when the papers are filed sorta like
    a while we're there type of thing. I don't have any facts other than
    almost every man I know that has been divorced had this pulled on them
    I invite anyone to prove me wrong though. It's just one of the many
    stupid "let's keep the hurtin' going" games that people play.
    
    -j
    
    -j

RE:  Note 1243.13 LJOHUB::GODIN 

>                     -< Do you have proof for your claim? >-
>    re. 1243.12 (Dwight Berry): would you please provide references and/or
>    documentation for your claim that "many women see [restraining orders]
>    and use [them] as a sign of power" and "many women get one and don't
>    really feel threatened at all."

Karen,

What a ______ request... state references, indeed!  That's as common as divorce
itself.  Anyone that doesn't know this has been sleeping longer than Rip Van
Winkle!  Sure, some wymin feel threatened, but many don't.  Many use it as
another 'stab' at their husbands.

But if you want a reference, and that is what it takes to convince you... then
here's one for you.... ME.

Documentation?  Yea right.  She wrote it down... "I'm getting this to show
Dwight Berry that I can exercise control over him. -  Signed: XXXXX"  Or did
you want me to write it all down???

Want more info?  Want details?  Did I ever hit her?  No.  

"Z", you met me.  I picked you up and took you drinking at a club where your
tongue dragged the floor.  I'm a nice guy, ain't I?  :^)

Now did she ever hit me?  Once.  In my face.  We were moving into the house we
had just bought with my VA loan.  I was carrying boxes into the house when the
sprinklers popped on and the windows were up.  She screamed at me about them. 
I had stitches in my forehead where I had gotten hurt earlier that day and
busted my head open and was taken BY A FRIEND to the emergency room.  I said
rather loud back at her, "OKAY, OKAY," as I was carrying a box in, (she carried
nothing).  She back-handed me with a backfist in the face.  Did I want to pop
her?  Yes.  Did I?  No.  I did ask her, rather calmly, if that was her best
shot.  She stood still, saying nothing.  I then told her she'd better NEVER
pull such a stunt again.  She never did.  She was a green belt in karate.  I'm
a black belt and a boxer.  If ever I had a reason to swing 'back', it was then.

She was the daughter of a big shot lawyer that was a judge.  They had lots of
so-called "clout" where we came from.  My "X" even told me when I begged her to
let me have my personal items and clothes that I was not to come near 'HER'
property again and that I'd be arrested if I did.  The temporary restraining
order was issued when she filed for divorce.  Her other 'wymin' friends advised
her to do so.  She threw my stuff in the drive way for me to pick it up.  I had
to have a cop to get my things.

Her lawyer made a big deal about me being a black belt in court, and convinced
the judge to get a PERMANENT restraining order against me.  Ya see, the stupid
courts go, "wow, a black belt eh?  Bet he's real dangerous."  What they don't
understand is that a black belt is usually better at CONTROLLING himself than
someone else... in this case... my green belt "X".  

This story is JUST ONE EXAMPLE of power that my "X" displayed.  I could write a
book on her.

Revenge is a cold dish!  After about 7 years, I'm buying a house and she'll
probably lose the one she's in now as she's having trouble making the payments. 
I've got have an excellent chance of getting my son back as he's turning 13
years old and hates living with her and wants out of there.  I'm sure I'll wind
up taking possession of her house, (my VA loan), and selling it.  All she did
was pay HIGH RENT for 7 years, one might say!  She won't have a pot to pee in.

She became quite a "femin-idgit."  Hates all men.  Don't need anybody.  She's
cracking up now.  Been seeing a shrink to find out what went wrong with her
life and why my son and her can't get along.  Owes everybody in town.  Can't
buy a decent supper, can't even watch cable these days.  VA has informed me
she's becoming late with her house payments.  She wants to refinance the house,
but no one will co-sign with her on a new loan.  Though Colorado state law
deeded it over to her, Federal law, (VA), won't work with her.  They'll only
work with me... the veteran.

Ms. WYMIN_POWER is finished.  She'll have to get on her broom and go back to
live with "mama" when it's all over.  They can sit and bash men together and
read their wymin magazines and watch reruns of Oprah.

    OK, we now have two examples (Mike's is not personally witnessed), and
    the claim that "every one in Colorado is doing it."  Well, I have a
    brother who was divorced in Colorado, and his ex didn't do it, so I
    hope you can see why I have to question the "every one in Colorado"
    claim.  I'm not questioning or doubting that "some" women abuse the
    restraining order system, just like "some" men need to be restrained.
    
    I am questioning the claim that "many" women are abusing this system.
    
    And if it's true that "many" women in Colorado are getting unnecessary
    restraining orders, has anyone checked to see if lawyers are routinely
    suggesting it at the time a divorce is filed, just like lawyers I know
    routinely suggest they change the locks?  Is this a system problem
    rather than a plot by women to kick men while they're down?
    
    Karen

RE:  Note 1243.17 LJOHUB::GODIN 

>    I am questioning the claim that "many" women are abusing this system.

What do you call many?  I guess it's subjective.  I know of many guys that this
has happened to.
    
>    And if it's true that "many" women in Colorado are getting unnecessary
>    restraining orders, has anyone checked to see if lawyers are routinely
>    suggesting it at the time a divorce is filed, just like lawyers I know
>    routinely suggest they change the locks?  Is this a system problem
>    rather than a plot by women to kick men while they're down?

I'm sure that in some cases, the lawyer advocates it.  But 'many' women demand
it for their own personal reasons.  It is a popular way of 'playing the game.'

    .13

    I have seen where women use this legal power to gain better positioning
    in their divorces too. I guess you might be able to debate my sources
    because they were not written by a woman. As in women write data for the
    causes for women as men write them for men. Etc. But such is life.

    I know of a case in Exeter N.H. where a woman use her martial arts
    training that was paid by her husband to attack him. And she filed a
    restraining order. And the local police didn't listen to him. And he
    took his life a year ago.

    Ok, I guess I'll have to be the spoiler.  I'm a woman.  I didn't :-).
    In fact, my ex-husband waltzed away with a condo and a car that
    my father had paid for.  I'm left with 5 good years of debt before
    I can buy another piece of real estate. My only satisfaction is that 
    the condo has now lost as much value as the debt I carried.  In one 
    sense, we're now even.  Did he ever "abuse" me? Mentally perhaps.  I 
    guess I'd call us even on that score too.  Sometimes walking away is 
    your best defense.  Restraining orders serve very little purpose and
    cause a lot of pain.  A friend of mine was the victim of an unfair
    restraining order.  It killed a marriage that otherwise might have
    been salvageable.  Some sins are not forgiveable.  It's best, IMO,
    to just let go.
    
    Mary-Michael
    

    Mary-Michael, wow, what a relief to hear from another woman on the
    matter.  'Cause, you see, I didn't either.  So now we have three women
    who didn't (you, me, and my ex-sister-in-law), and two verified cases of 
    women who did.  Yep, looks like "many" women to me!
    
    (taking tongue out of cheek)--
    Ok, fellows, I'm not attacking you.  Believe it or not, all women
    aren't out to get you.  Probably not even "many" women.  It's quite
    unfortunate you've had a bad experience with a woman in your life. I'm
    sincerely sympathetic.  But my sympathy gets sorely strained when you
    use that experience to tarnish the reputations of "many" women--and 
    endanger your chances of ever having a healthy relationship with a
    woman because you can't see the individual for the masses.
    
    Karen 
    
    
                                    

    Karen,

    	I agree with you. Women as a who are not out to get us. Perhaps
    some to take advantage of the system in the worst way. But, not out to
    make us newts. Make us financial slaves, not out to get us.:) Not out
    like the NOW women to make us  rasputians, but as a whole not out
    to get us. Not out to have us rounded up as days of old in Germany.
    But who knows.:)
    
    

    The following reply has been contributed by a member of our community
    who wishes to remain anonymous.  If you wish to contact the author by
    mail, please send your message to QUARK::MODERATOR, specifying the
    conference name and note number. Your message will be forwarded with
    your name attached  unless you request otherwise.

				Steve






	Re.  1243.13

		When my wife decided to try divorce,  she first went to 
	court claiming mental cruelty.  The judge listened to her describe 
	my shortcomings (bad father, bad provider, and bad in bed.) He then 
	listened to me say that I didn't want to be separated from my 
	family and didn't want a divorce.  He decided that he would not 
	issue the temporary order that she requested.  He said that we could 
	not afford a divorce and that we should go home and try to work 
	things out.
  
		A few weeks later,  I came home to find that my wife had 
	brought home a kitten for each of our daughters.  I'm very allergic 
	to cats.  I picked up one of the kittens to carry it outside.  My 
	ex blocked the front door so I headed for the stairs down to the 
	back door.  My ex followed me down and wrapped her arms around me 
	from behind.  Not wanting to fall, I stopped and then sat down.  
	She had to either let go or sit down.  She sat down with me sitting
	in her lap.  Then she let go.  I left the house.  She called the 
	cops to report that I attacked her.

		She filed for a restraining order in criminal court and 
	a temporary order in probate (divorce) court.  The criminal court
	judge first issued a restraining order and then, after a hearing,
	rescinded it.  At the probate court hearing several weeks later,
	the judge refused to listen to me.  She issued a temporary order 
	putting me out of the house, ordering me to pay child support, and 
	giving me visiting hours with my children. 

		A few weeks after I moved out,  my ex returned the kittens 
	to the farm where she'd gotten them.

		In a new chapter of my life,  I lived with a girlfriend for
	several years.  The relationship fell apart and she wanted me to 
	move out.  In spite of the hurt and anger that goes with breaking 
	up,  she gave me plenty of time to find a new place to live
	and then gave me many things to help set up my new place.  She was
	as generous and fair-minded at the end as she had been in the 
	beginning.  My conclusion from all this is that people are 
	different.  Some people try to find happiness, others demand it.
	Now, I try not to date and woman who seems to be the vengeful type,
	especially if she's packing a gun or a lawyer.  You've got to look
	after yourself.

    re:.16
    
    Remembery Pinky's?  And that dance club?  Was it Shooters?
    
    Don't try to kid anyone, Dman, your tongue was draggin' too.  :^)

RE:  Note 1243.21 LJOHUB::GODIN 

>So now we have three women who didn't (you, me, and my ex-sister-in-law), and
>two verified cases of  women who did.  Yep, looks like "many" women to me!

Comparing a handful or replies in a little notes conference hardly detracts
from the use of the word, "many."  That's as off the wall as asking for
documentation.  According to your logic, if a couple of more men replied
here, then you'd have to detract your rhetoric.
    
>But my sympathy gets sorely strained when you use that experience to tarnish
>the reputations of "many" women--and 

I don't know about other guys but I ain't looking for sympathy from Karen
Godin.  As for tarnishing the relationship of 'many' women, ... the conduct of
such women speaks for itself.

>endanger your chances of ever having a healthy relationship with a woman
>because you can't see the individual for the masses.

Again, speaking for myself, I'm happily married.  And "healthy" is subjective
to everyone anyway.  To some women, a healthy relationship is one in which
their husbands wear their zippers on the side instead of the front.  

Have a nice day.

    Dwight, please read what I said, not what you think I said.  Once
    you've done that, please let me know if you want to continue this
    discussion through mail. I've said all I feel I need to say here, but
    am willing to clarify my position for anyone who is interested enough
    to contact me off line.
    Karen

    The following reply has been contributed by a member of our community
    who wishes to remain anonymous.  If you wish to contact the author by
    mail, please send your message to QUARK::MODERATOR, specifying the
    conference name and note number. Your message will be forwarded with
    your name attached  unless you request otherwise.

				Steve






    This is my experience with restraining orders. My now-ex-husband told
    me he was going to kill me, broke into my mother's house and came
    through the window to get at me, was arrested and held overnight for MY
    protection, and the police issued a temporary restraining order, as
    this all happened on a friday night. Come monday morning, the Worcester
    probate court would NOT give me a retraining order against him, I
    assume because he had not actually laid a hand on me. 
    
    My point being that in my experience judges don't hand them out on
    the woman's whim....
    
    

    When and where was this?
    
    They seem to be very easy to get nowadays.

    As a European I must admit that this topic has been a fascinating
    insight into married life in the USA.

    Jamie.

RE:  Note 1243.27 QUARK::MODERATOR     -< Anonymous reply >-

>    My point being that in my experience judges don't hand them out on
>    the woman's whim....

In your own experience, perhaps not.  But they are most certainly handed out on
the 'fly.'  It's business for one thing.  I know that people have been charged
$200 for such an order.  The lawyers and judges are in a business, don't
forget.

As has been pointed out... if your X-husband is out to get you, an order won't
stop him.  Hence, they are not good for much, really... but are more or less
popular in playing power games... or mind games.  

They're MUCH easier for a woman to get, as a judge will sign one in a heartbeat
in any domestic situation.  The courts still have the mentality of protecting
the "little woman."  It's damn near an automatic process, especially here in
Colorado, as Jerry noted.  My lawyer told me the same thing in 1986.
    

    RE:  Note 1243.26 LJOHUB::GODIN 

>                -< You've obviously misinterpreted my comments >-
>    Dwight, please read what I said, not what you think I said.  

        Perhaps you don't type the words you desire to say?  What you
        typed and entered is clear to me.

        Have a nice day.

    It's interesting that there seems IMO to be a lot of hostility
    being generated around this topic.  Granted, the process isn't
    the easiest one in the world, but once it's over, why carry it
    around with you?  Restraining orders *do* serve a purpose besides
    what you have described.  They are a necessary step in an escalating
    chain used by a person who is genuinely being threatened.  The courts
    should not allow them to be mis-used, but they should not be 
    discontinued and they should not favor one gender over another.  
    
    While you gentlemen may feel that "many" of us women cry "abuse!"
    to the judge far too easily, "many" of you seem to cry "poverty!" 
    just as loudly when it's time to divide up the cash....maybe we 
    should discuss *that* for awhile....;-) ;-) ;-) 
    
    Mary-Michael

	As I've been reading the notes on this topic, I've thought about the
various times I've been watching the news.  I've lost count of the number of
times a woman got a restraining order on her ex-boyfriend/husband, and yet he
looked her up and it ended up in violence.  CLEARLY, there are many, many
times when the order was *not* superfluous (or effective, it would seem).


	While there may be cases where it was not necessary, there are so many
documented cases where it was that I can't see how anyone can say that "many
women use it as another stab at their husbands".  It sounds to me like you are
taking your particular case and generalizing it.  Watch the news -- it's
incredible how many women are being abused even after the order is in place.


	As for the fact that they are ineffective, I think that that's a systemic
problem rather than the fault of the order itself.  It points out that we have
a gap in our system that attempts to protect ALL of us.  Keep it, I say, and
hopefully someday someone will come up with a way to make it WORK.


	Oh for a world where such things weren't even necessary....


Brian

    Brian,
    
    	I hope it never happens to you. But when it does. Pray. Lots.
    
    
    
    Peace
    George

    	In accordance with the old adage "possession is 9/10 of the law",
    the restraining order gives the woman possession of the house, the kids
    and whatever else.  When the divorce actually comes around the judge is
    likely to continue what at that time is the status quo.  A bogus
    restraining order is a very effective first shot in a custody battle.
    The fact that there are some valid cases for restraining orders just
    make it easier for a woman to obtain one under a false pretext.  There
    are many lawyers who will conspire with their client to file a false
    report for strategic reasons.
    	(Don't give me the BS about kids are not possessions.  The court and 
    wife in these cases treat them as such.)

    Men have put restraining orders on women as well.  For valid reasons
    as well as to establish claims in the upcoming legal actions.

    RE: .35
    
    I do believe the judge is most likely to approve whatever
    settlement is worked out in the Permanent Stipulation, which,
    in my recollection, your respective attorneys fight out for
    you beforehand, generally leaving you with very little to
    divide up :-).  This document spells out very clearly
    visitation, child support, posessions, etc.  It does not
    have to echo the Temporary Stipulation, as ours had
    substanial changes (mileage for your state may vary).
    
    RE: -1
    
    Thanks!  I was beginning to feel the hot breath of bitterness
    breathing down my neck! :-)
    
    Mary-Michael