Conference quark::human_relations-v1

    Just my opinion, but I feel he's lying by omitting a very important
    piece of information about himself secret. He might not have any
    questionable intentions but how can he know what her intentions
    are? She might just see a single, available guy that she gets along
    well with and might try to further the relationship. I have to wonder
    why your SO didn't tell her.

   I think being engaged, married, involved, whatever, is part of who you
   are, so I can't imagine *not* letting someone I cared about know these
   things about me in the short term.

   Not saying something about yourself (that is significant in *your* own
   life) is deceptive.

   I don't tell everyone I know that I'm involved, but those people that
   matter to me *do* know.  I tell them.


   I would feel very uncomfortable if my partner had friends of the opposite
   gender who did not know we were involved.  I would question what our
   relationship really meant to him.  I would wonder how serious he was
   about us, or if he was keeping his options because he wasn't really ready
   for a long term commitment.  I can handle insecurity (or "give me some
   space") stated up front far better than playing games.

   Then again, either he doesn't care enough about the two of you (how
   important is your relationship in his life anyway?) to mention it to his
   friends (whatever gender they are), or he doesn't care enough about his
   relationship with her to mention it to her.  I believe the latter to be
   false from what you've said.


   							Terza

   P.S.-It's also possible that he never really *thought* about it that way,
   but it doesn't sound like it from what you've said.

When I am in the process of getting to know someone, many of the important
details of my life just happen to come out in the process (e.g. I'm married,
six cats, no kids, currently renovating a 100-year-old house, etc.).  I
think the reason these things happen to come up in conversation is that
each one helps to define me as a person.  No single one of them is "ME", but
taken together they help to flesh out the real person behind the face.

>    How long after meeting someone of the opposite sex do you make it known
>    that you are involved?

It tends to come up sooner rather than later, but I don't go around
greeting new faces with: "Hi, my name is Jim, and I'm married, so don't
get your hopes up!" 8-) 8-) 8-).  If it's someone that I have more than
a casual acquaintance with, then the subject will probably come up of its
own accord sometime within the first two or three conversations...

>   Would you feel slighted if your SO had a
>   "friend" of the opposite sex whom he/she conversated with almost daily
>   and they don't even know you exist?

It would bother me only because my wife and I generally share ALL of our
experiences with each other.  When one of us get to be friends with someone
(of either sex), one of the first things we want to do is introduce him/her
to the other (we share all sorts of OTHER good things with each other: good
food, good entertainment, good backrubs... why NOT good friends?).

--jim

    I can see how one's involvement might not come up in the first hour
    of conversation, but it's hard to imagine it wouldn't ever get
    mentioned over weeks.
    
    I'm married and wear a ring.  When I talk to women I don't know, I
    often mention my wife so that they can know I'm not out to pick them
    up.  It's not done crudely ("Hi, I'm married, you know"), but in the
    context of the conversation ("Yes, I know that restaurant--my wife and
    I went there once").
    
    When I was just "involved", I might have waited longer before
    mentioning my girlfriend.
    				-John Bishop

I've had it happen that I haven't mentioned my SO to friends, particularly
in cases where I don't talk with the friend much (and when we do talk there's
a lot of catching up to do).  In every case, I'm surprised to find out they
don't know.
 
I find it difficult to imagine talking with someone every day and never once 
mentioning him... unless, of course, it was a nosy relative who liked to 
pry. ;-)

Hypothetically speaking, I can see myself answering the same thing as your
SO if I were posed a similar question, because I don't feel I should be
*required* to bring the topic up every time I meet someone new.  However,
my SO expressed an interest in meeting another of my friends, I would try to 
introduce them as soon as possible.

If she's playing a large enough role in his life that they talk daily, and
he refuses to introduce the two of you, you should face the facts: there's
something he doesn't want at least one of you to know.

Frankly, I find your comment ("Does she know you're engaged?") a little 
in and of itself.  You seem to regard this woman first as a potential rival, 
not as a potential friend.  This sounds like there may be another problem
between you and your fiance which poses more of a threat to your ongoing
relationship than does his female friend.

    Sharon

    I don't mention my SO with friends or acquintences unless I get some 
    clue that I'm being hit on, or the other person is interested in asking 
    me out.  Otherwise, unless the conversation at hand involves her, I
    don't go to any extreme to bring her up.  That is unless I'm talking
    about some event wherein she had a vital role(like going boating and
    having her cause the boat to roll over) Even then I wouldn't say 
    "My Financee caused the boat to roll, Or Jane, My SO, caused the
    boat...  I'd say Jane caused the boat to roll over... If the person I'm 
    talking to asks "Who's Jane?" I'd reply my SO but otherwise... 
    
    Skip

	I would suggest you deeply consider your present relationship.
	Speaking from direct experience...I did not mention my SO to
	a "friend" and I did not mention my "friend" to my SO for a variety
	of reasons, all of them deceptive.
	Now, a few years and one divorce later I have learned from my mistakes
		and have actually changed my attitude and my act. (That took a
		lot of work and realization that I too was a "SCUM". I now have
	a relation ship with my SO and I tell everyone !!   Not just because I
	have an SO but because my SO is and will be THE most important person in
	my life... 

	Yes I still have friends of the opposite sex and even have made friends
	with my EX. And guess what, MY  SO and I even exchange christmas cards
	and letters my all. (A side note, my SO has may old college friends of
	the opposite sex and in fact we've invited them to a BARBI this coming
		weekend...
		I'm not sure if I made my point, but
					Good Luck

						GEO

I meant to say My SO and I  (after having made peace and actual friendship 
again with my EX ) now exchange letters, calls and christmas cards. I guess
what i'm trying to say is there should be no reason why you and your SO sohuldn't
be able to have friends of either sex and share those friends and relationships
with each other. I think by meeting and learning about each others friends, past
and present, you learn alot about each other.  

						GEO

    
    I married and proud that my wife is my partner.  I don't go out of my
    way to mention that I am married, but I also wear a ring.  I can not
    imagine talking to someone every day for several weeks and not have it
    come up that I am married.  This includes friends and co-workers.
    
    I would be concerned.  I agree that there is one of you he does not
    want to no something about the other. He's an engaged man - he needs to
    make some lifestyle choices - or its going to be a rough road.  You may
    also need to read the writing on the wall ???
    
    In his partial defense - there could be some very innocent reasons. 1)
    He has been single for a long time, never been real serious with
    someone and has not made the transition to an "involved" lifestyle ( SO
    or married ), 2) He is an individual who partitions pieces of his life
    - work, home and friends and does not really mix and match, 3) It just
    never crossed his mind to tell this other person.
    
    Personally, I believe that single and "involved/commited" people act
    very differently.  Your concerns, lifestyle, priorities, etc are different
    and wether you say it or not - it comes through what you are...
    
    my 2 cents ... jgk
    

    This is getting outta hand...
    
    It is not only conceivable but highly possible that it just plain never 
    came up in conversation.  I mean I don't converse with a friend and say 
    OH BTW I'm engaged now.... like it's been said by others, I tend to
    take it for granted that someone would know that.  Now, on the other
    hand, if the person I'm talking to as a friend happens to walk past
    while I'm sitting at lunch with my SO, I'd introduce her as such...
    regardless if it is girlfriend, financee, wife, or so... 
    
    Something like "Friend, this is my SO, Whatsthename.  Whatsthename,
    this is my friend, Friend."  Establishing right off who is what to me.
    
    IF he were to not do THIS I'd be concerned... but unless you know for a 
    fact that the conversations they have had start or include something
    like "Oh BTW have you gotten engaged lately?" I wouldn't worry about
    it.  If he's acting like it isn't a big deal... then more then likely 
    for him, it isn't.  If you're really concerned about it, ask him to
    have her over for a meal sometime and get introduced... how he
    introduces you will tell you more about what he's got going on inside
    his head then weather or not he brings you up as a topic of discussion  
    with someone of the female gender that he considers as nothing more
    then a friend... 
    
    Like someone else said... if SHE were a HE would it bother you so much?
    
    Skip

    Re: .10
    
    "If she were a he would it bother me so much?"
    
    He goes out of his way to make sure all of his male friends knows of me
    or meets me.  If he did the same with his female friends I would not be
    bothered, but he gives the impression he wants to keep our relationship
    a secret or something with the females.
    

    In that case, all I can offer, is that my current SO had a similar
    problem with her past SO (perhaps a bit more sever) he didn't like to 
    take her out to social things where other women where going to be
    around.  How did she handle it?  
    
    Well, notice I said her past SO.
    
    Skip
    

    
    A very close friend of mine carried on with this type of relationship
    that you are referring to for about 5+ years.  She, IMO, was involved
    in one of the most unhealthiest relationships I've ever seen.  It 
    started with him keeping her a secret...it then led to more.  She
    'was' engaged to him as well...not anymore!
     
    You did say you were engaged to this guy right?
    
    Paula

    
    
    Is it possible he's allowing for the possibility of something "better"
    to come along?  
    
    

    
    
    Re: 0
    
    How many times do you talk to someone and hear them say:
    
           "Well, my girlfriend thinks..."
           "Last night, my boyfriend and I..."
    
    If this girl is talking to him on a regular basis
    and you have never been mentioned, one of 2
    things are happening:
    
          1) You have absolutely no impact in his life.
    
          2) He is actively hiding (by omission) the fact that you
             exist.
    
    Do his male friends know about you?
    
    I had a girlfriend that treated me like that. Notice I said HAD.
    She would just say "I didn't mention it because it was none of their
    business."
    
    As far as I was concerned, if she was unavailable, EVERYONE should
    know.
    

    RE-1
    
    Some feel different then others along those lines.... I DON'T like it
    when my SO says thing like "Well Skip thinks..." "My SO feels...."
    etc.  
    
    To me it's a matter of her forming my thoughts... she doesn't know my 
    opinion on the matter (even if it's the taste of my favorite beer).  
    
    I don't attempt to venture forth with her opinion... 
    
    I'm not sayng you're wrong, but I AM saying that there are those of us 
    who feel it's not correct for someone else to speak for us, and we do 
    not like it when someone does that.  Part of this is a mental hang-over 
    from my ex who used to give my opinion on things all the time, as well
    as my tools, my time, and my skills.
    
    "Honey, I'm going fishing tomorrow with Frank..."
    "You can't go fishing tomorrow with Frank, I promised Ed you'd go over
    and help him work on his car."
    "Oh?  I wish you wouldn't do that... oh well, I guess I can reschedule
    the fishing trip and take a look at Ed's car.... have you seen my gray
    tool box with all my deep sockets in it?"
    "Oh I loaned it to george last week to tighten the nut on his wifes 
    bicycle he said he'd bring it right back."
    "Right, well, obviously he didn't... why didn't you call him and remind 
    him to bring the tools back?"
    "Well, they aren't MY tools, and I said YOU'D call if you needed them
    back right away."
    
    And so it would go.... eventually leading to a conversation about me
    not liking Hamburgers with cheese on them because my Ex would say so..
    Only it wsn't a case of me not liking hamburgers with cheese, I just
    didn't like the burned hamburgers with cheese she fixed one night long 
    ago on a barbaque in our back yard....
    
    Get the idea?  I don't like people to speak for me... it not only
    irrates me, but it's a good step in the direction of miscommunication
    and misunderstanding.  My current SO doesn't speak on my behalf,
    doesn't volunteer my equipment and basically doens't really bring me up 
    in any conversations unless it's something that will call for a joint 
    dicision (Why don't you come over for dinner tomorrow?  "I'll have to 
    check with my SO to see what he has planned.")
    
    Skip

    -1
    
    Do you both actually use the term "SO?"
    
    It sounds so.... "PC."
    

    No but it's eaiser to say SO in lew of all the other terms we DO use,
    Boyfriend, Girlfiend, Sweetheart, Honey, Baby-Doll, Puppie-toes,
    Lamb-libs, Pumpkin, Dragon-Slayer, Princess, Knight in Shining
    Armour...etc. etc. etc.  "SO" is only two letters and I don't have to 
    concentrate on spelling it as hard as I do some of these others.
    
    Skip

    
    
    Re: .16
    
    My point was not that SO's speak for each other or give the
    other's opinion, but rather that SO's come up in each other's
    conversation invariably.
    

    But the examples you used, were nothing more then the SO's speaking for 
    each other.  My SO doesn't come up in many conversations unless it's a 
    conversation dealing with SO's... and aside from this conference and 
    a few extremely rare situations that just doesn't happen much.
    
    I'm not saying never, it's just that in the way I deal with a
    conversation, I don't venture other's opinions, I don't repeat what 
    someone I know might have said, I don't see how I would bring her up, 
    we don't make plans for each other when scheduling our free time, we do 
    check with each other to see if the other wants to take part in
    whatever we are planning.  
    
    I will admit that her close friends know about me and my close friends 
    know about her... it can't be helped when you have someone come over
    and she's sitting there on the sofa, and if I considered someone a
    close friend, then they would know of her somehow I'm sure, but if they 
    are a close friend and have no knowledge of her, then there is
    something wrong in that.  
    
    Maybe I'm a bit wierd, most of the folks hear know about my past,
    because that's my past... I'm married twice lost a wife and child in 
    an accident, remarried and divorced with a now 6 year old son.  They
    know I'm close to the girl I now date, but they don't know that much
    about her unless they are a close friend of mine.  They don't know much 
    about Raymond (my son) unless they are a close friend.  Simply because
    I keep my present life close to me... it's something that's MINE not 
    someone else's and it's been created and maintained by me to give me 
    a sanctuary from the rest of the world.  A place to go after a hard day 
    at work.  I like to think I'm the same thing to my SO.  I don't want to 
    share that with the rest of the world... why invite intruders into my
    own small piece of paradise?  Look what those same people have done to
    the rest of the world, and there own pieces of paradise.  Why should I 
    let them know about it and give them the opportunity to cause me grief?
    
    Do I make sense here? or am I talking in circles (again).  
    
    What I'm saying is that we each create circles around us with ourselves 
    as a center... each circle contains various degrees of relatives and 
    friends that are allowed to know us and portaions of us in sweeping 
    degrees... the closer the circle the more those in it know about us...
    the further away the cirlce.. the less those people know of us, much
    like a stone in water... there is a point where the circles aren't even 
    produced anymore.. that point contains those people in the world who've 
    never known or will be touched by us.  WE stack and place everyone on 
    earth in those circles or rings around us, sometimes shifting and 
    relocating the people... sometimes allowing them to come in contact
    with each other and sometimes not, it's our decision and
    responsibility, (this doesn't take into account the occasion cross
    meeting of folks when you are not involved).  
    
    For instance, I have several friends... on several levels that by
    coincidence all happen to work for the same group, same manager, and
    even know each other.  BUT, only one of these people is close enough to
    me to be aware that I know the other two as well.... get the idea?
    
    I don't condone what is happening in the basenote situation...
    especially sense she is saying that his male friends on the same level 
    as the particular female are fully aware of his relationship with her.
    That has something wrong in it.  
    
    But to state that because a person doesn't know of a relationship there 
    is something wrong with the relationship is wrong also.  But a lot
    depends on where HE see's the female friend on the "rings" around
    himself and where the base noter sees the female friend... how much 
    jealousy figures in, and if the guy has given the basenoter any reason
    to worry or not.  
    
    SKip

    Been my experience that most women will let you know they have
    a husband/fiancee/boyfriend within the first three minutes of
    conversation. Somehow. If you're only interested in single women,
    and you _don't_ get the signal within three minutes, proceed ;-)

    Last summer I spent an afternoon on the beach sans family, in the
    company of several mostly-single mostly-strangers. At one point a
    discomfittingly attractive woman sat down near me and asked "What's
    YOUR story." Falling over myself to establish that I was NOT available,
    I told her "Well, I have a wife and three daughters and a house and a
    station wagon. I do NOT have a dog, however, definitely no dog." She
    laughted good-naturedly and said "I get the picture."

    
    
    Well if they're talking on the phone everyday, wouldn't she ever
    ask "what did you do over the weekend?" Wouldn't that be a
    natural time to say my fiance and I did X?
    
    Something isn't right.
    
    bonnie

    
    
    
    Re: .20
    
    Why are you forcing this down a rathole?
    I only used two examples and one was of the SO's opinion.
    The other was what they did the other night.
    
    If you still don't understand my point, look at replies .21 and .23.
    They stated it in a different way.

    First, I am not forcing it down a rathole.. I'm trying to say that 
    there is a possiblity that there IS no problem... that some men such 
    as myself do NOT bring up the SO in conversations and as such the 
    base noter should not be so quick to worry about it... 
    That it depends a LOT on what level of friendship the base noter's 
    boyfriend has with the girl she is talking about.  
    
    Next, I was dealing with what YOU had said and how YOU had said it.
    If I misread your words then I'm sorry... 
    
    If you feel that trying to present possible answers for the MAN's
    behavior is wrong, then again,  I'm sorry.
    
    My major concern and effort is to show that all the people in hear that 
    are so quick to say "DUMP HIM SOMETHING'S WRONG" are jumping to that 
    conclusion without giving the guy the benifit of the doubt. Or
    bothering to look at the question from both sides.  The basenoter is 
    seeing the problem from her point and asking if this is normal behavior 
    or not, and if there are possible explainations for his behavior...
    I'm saying yes there are possible explainations and she should look at 
    those from all angles before breaking off the relationship... I am
    making the assumption that the relationship means something to her or
    she would have gone ahead and broke the relationship off without asking 
    for an opinion or advice and being who and what I am I prefere to
    advocate that a person look at the decision to bust off eleminate or
    otherwise end a relationship from all sides and consider all the angles 
    before making a decision... better to say "Yeah, when I broke it off
    with ----- back then I did the right thing" "Then gee I wonder if I
    should have broken off that relationship back then?  I wonder where I'd 
    be now?"  
    
    I've had my life plagued with question for a long time and it was
    wasted time and energy dwelling on it... If I can present a point of 
    view, or bit of advice that will prevent that from happening to someone 
    else then I'm doing what I promised myself I'd do when I finally came 
    down to reality and realized that people tend to jump first and
    question the reprocusions of it later... sometimes much later.
    
    Finally, I assume the moderators keep an eye on this stuff... if I'm 
    ratholing I'm sure they won't hesitate in letting me know about it.  
    I think my comments have ALL been of benifit to the original base note 
    and pointed out some things to be considered by her.  If you want my 
    personal opinion on the whole thing it's this simple... none of us
    should be saying stay or go at all... she's given us about a page and 
    a half report on a relationship that's lasted longer and should
    generate  a LOT more information to work with.  And instead of so many 
    saying "get rid of him" we should be asking her questions and probing
    into the relationship deeper then the surface info of the base note and 
    her second note in this string.  We aren't... we're saying "go" or
    "Stay"  fine that's what we are doing then I'm going to attempt to make 
    her take as hard a look as possible at the info being thrown at her so 
    she can stop and THINK about it.  
    
    My PERSONAL opinion and gut reaction is the guy is a bum and not worth 
    the ink it would take to scratch his name off her Christmas list. 
    There are a LOT of men who would treat her a lot better and do a lot
    more for her... including printing the fact of their relationship in 
    6 inch letters across the front page of the Globe. 
    
    Skip  
    
    

Re: .25

>    There are a LOT of men who would treat her a lot better and do a lot
>    more for her... including printing the fact of their relationship in 
>    6 inch letters across the front page of the Globe. 

Only if they had been abducted from the Kennedy villa by space aliens who
looked like Elvis...

Oh, you meant the BOSTON Globe!  Sorry!


Anyway, to the original question, I too would find it very unusual for it
to "not come up" that he was engaged, especially after knowing the woman
for any significant length of time.  My suspicion is also that he is
deliberately hiding it.  I don't know what you can do about it that won't
further damage your relationship, not that I think it's on all that a solid
ground to begin with.  His response to you is pure evasion.  Ask yourself
if you're willing to live with this sort of suspicious behavior if you
marry him.

				Steve

    Re: .25
    
    Well, now it seems like you got the point. But in your reply
    to my response (.15), it seemed more like you were making one of
    my examples the point (missing my real point).
    
    So, with that in mind... I disagree with you and stick to my
    original response.
    
    Unless I missed YOUR point, you want to give him the benefit of the
    doubt. Why? 
    
    If one person in a relationship doesn't bring up the other
    in daily conversation, what impact does she have on him?
    
    I can see if 2 people are chatting by a bus stop. But he talks to
    this other woman every day. And she doesn't know he is unavailable?
    
      

    Re-1
    
    Because as I said before in my replies... I DON'T bring up my SO 
    everyday in conversation with people here at work, or with close
    friends my own feeling is my relationship is none of there business.
    I'm NOT hiding it from them, it just plain does not concern them.  
    I don't allow these people into that circle of people I conceder close 
    enough to be aware of that relationship.  I DO consider some of these
    people friends... I go to lunch with them, on occasion I stay after
    work and have a drink with some of them... but I don't associate with
    them on the level that concerns my relationship with my SO and so I
    don't talk about her, I don't bring her up in my conversation.  Does it 
    mean I don't love her?  HELL NO!  It means it isn't there business.  
    
    Steve,...
    
    Whoooops, there I go being non-specific again.. you're right, but I
    couldn't think of any other semi large distributed paper around here 
    unless I refer to the Wall Street Journal.
    
    ;-)
    Skip

    
    
    Re: .25
    
    Further... I NEVER said "dump him" or anything to that effect.
    All I said was if a girlfriend doesn't get mentioned
    in daily conversations with the same person (who is of the opposite
    sex), he is either interested in her OR his girlfriend doesn't
    have much of an impact on his life (not enough to get mentioned,
    anyway).
    
    Also, in your last paragraph, you did exactly what you critized
    everyone for doing... 
    

    
    
    Re .28
    
    Are you saying that people who know you DON'T know you are married
    or otherwise unavailable?
    
    Maybe you don't bring up you SO in every conversation, but do the
    people you work with know you have a SO?
    

    You're absolutely right.... how observant of you...
    
    I also did not say that YOU had made the comment on dumping him...
    
    However, I will say that by reading between the lines of your comment
    it could very easily be taken that way.
    
    Skip

    Re.30
    
    I'm saying that there is a level of friendship where at I do not bring 
    up my SO I do not mention her because it isn't any of there business.
    It is a level that I maintain here with the people I work with.  
    
    So in that generality yeap... that's what I'm saying... there are
    people who know me or some aspect of me VERY WELL that have no idea 
    or clue that I have an SO.  Simply because It isn't any of there
    business and I prefer to keep it that way... not only that but they 
    are also unaware that I have a 6 year old son.  
    
    Skip

    I do not even know you, but NOW I do know that you have an SO and a 6
    year old son  :-)
    
    - Vikas

    A bit of a different situation don't you think?  I "established" 
    my credentials as a parent widower and divorcee as well as nearly 10
    years in the Navy and a multitude of other experiences which included 
    surgury of a brain tumer and the loss of my mother due to cancer....
    Lived and went through hell and came back okay several times over in
    my lifetime.  It's all in here somewhere or other with details, and 
    all because I felt it necessary for the person I was talking to to 
    understand that I was talking from experience not my own opinion on 
    the matter.  
    
    So there isn't much irony to it is there?  Besides, in reality you
    DON'T  I could walk up behind you right now and you wouldn't know me...
    even if I gave you a full discription of myself.  
    
    Skip

    
    
    Re: .33
    
    I agree with you. I think it's rather strange that I know more about
    a person than people who have worked with him for years.
    
    Re: .32
    
    Reading between the lines is something YOU did, not something
    I led you to do. I never said for her to dump him or even implied it.
    In fact... YOU did when you said that there are plenty of guys that
    would treat her better.
    
    Also, you said that we should be asking probing questions into the
    situation. Again, I did, YOU didn't.
    
    I asked if his male friends know he is involved with her (to which I
    am still awaiting an answer).
    
                                                 

    
    
    Re: .34
    
    O.K., here's the situation: you just came back from a weekend at Maine
    with your wife and kid. 
    
    You come to work and a co-worker asks : "So, what did you do over
    the weekend?"
    
    Do you say: "I went to Maine with my wife and kid."?
    or: "Grrr... grumble... Maine... stuff... gotta go."?
    
    All I'm saying is, if the base note's boyfriend talks to this girl
    on a daily basis, things like this are just going to come up.
    It could be as innocent as "So, what did you do last night?"
    or as blunt as "So, how's your love life?"
    
    Maybe, it's different once a person is married for years with kids
    (though I wouold think the SO would come up even more), but their
    relationship is relatively new and if they have a commitment, it
    should be known. What do you think wedding rings are for?

    Sounds like you're making assumptions about Skip from the little
    bit of information that he gave you.  If you didn't know that he
    had a SO and a kid you wouldn't be asking him about a wedding ring
    would you?  Maybe his point is proven in this that he is better
    off in some way by not saying anything.
    
    Just an observation.
    
    How about:  What did you do this weekend?
    >> I went to Maine.  Had lots of fun too..you should go there!
    
    

    Thanks Pam you make a good point.
    
    As for the answer to the question you're looking for, If you go back
    over the note string I think you'll find she did in fact answer you.
    
    If you go back FURTHER through the string and look at my replies, 
    I think you'll find that there isn't much more to be said.
    
    In the manner you phrased your question and made your comment it was 
    easy to read that you disapproved of the situation and that she would 
    be well off without the man.  
    
    In my answer rather then "hint" at my opinion, I gave it full and in
    the face.  But I also stated that it was ONLY my opinion and that 
    she should consider other things as well, such as the type of person 
    I am and how private I tend to be when dealing with co-workers.  
    
    Finally I'd like to refer you to my note about various levels of
    friendship.  
    
    The man in the cube next store walks up to you one day and says
    "Hi, are you married? Do you have Kids?  What did you do this weekend?
    What are you doing next weekend?"
    
    Do you tell him?  Or do you try to answer as vague and polite as
    possible (not knowing who he is or how he might relate to your job) and 
    keep as much info to yourself?  Or, do you look him in the eye, and 
    ask him "Why? What business is it of yours?"  
    
    I tend to do the latter and if he has a good enough reason to need to 
    know these things I'll give him as few details as is needed.
    
    Finally,  your question on the wedding ring... I dunno, a lot of folks 
    don't even bother with them anymore.  So where does that leave your 
    question?
    
    Skip

    From an old fogie,
    
    I just show them my granddaughter's photo.  That usually makes things
    pretty clear.
    
    Dick

    
    
    Re: .38
    
    O.K., you must be teasing me, now!
    The question was just an example of a typical conversation,
    NOT the point.
    The point is (for the billionth time), that SO's come up in regular
    conversation.
    
    Re: .39
    
    As far as wedding rings go:
    You're right, not everyone wears one, but
    I didn't say "Why do people wear wedding
    rings?" I said "What do you think wedding rings are for?"
    
    So, my question IS valid. A wedding ring is a symbol of the couples
    unending love. It also is a bond to be shown to the world that they
    are no longer available to other potential mates.
    
    Also, I believe you. Even though you have written many things about
    your life in this note, I believe that you're co-workers know nothing
    about your personel life because 'it is none of their business'.
    
    However, I think what I said in .15 also applies to you.
    
    You are either actively omitting your relationship (you may not be
    hiding it just to flirt like the guy mentioned in the base note
    may be, but are hiding it just the same)
    
    or your family has no real impact on your life (enough to get mentioned
    in your daily routine). Either that or you don't feel your co-workers
    are worth opening up that side of yourself.
    
    Either way, someone should feel insulted. And I think the base noter
    should also feel insulted.
    
    I understand your point, I just don't agree with it.
    As you, I feel I have made myself extremely clear in all my past
    replies. So, I hope you understand my point, but (to be honest with
    you) at this point, I really don't care if you do or you don't.
    

    
    
    Re: .39
    
        
    Also,  if a guy in the next cubical started asking probing
    questions and I didn't know him, sure, I'd tell him to mind his business.
    
    I'm not talking about total strangers (or aquantices) asking
    personel questions for no reason. The base noter's fiance talks to this
    girl on a regular basis. It's true, I'm just assuming that she is not
    a stranger or an aquantence.
    
    And for the last time, I didn't 'hint', say, or otherwise imply
    that she should dump him. I did, however, mean to communicate to
    her that IN MY OPINION, something is wrong.
      

    First, why should the base noter be insulted?
    
    Second, we still don't know much about this guys relationship with the
    woman at work.  Is she an associate who he has to deal with everyday?
    Or is she a true friend that he goes out to lunch with on occasion and 
    out for drinks with after work once in a while, over to the house for a
    game or two on the tube... what?
    
    Third, the point I've been trying to get across is that there is NO
    insult intended to anyone when I don't bring up my relationship at
    work.
    
    Fourth, I'm trying real hard to show that the attitude of there being
    something wrong in the fact that a person does not bring up there
    private familey life with every TD&H at work doesn't mean he's hiding
    something... it means 1) that person as a certain respect for his
    private life and keeps it out of the work space.  2) It is NONE OF
    THEIR BUSINESS and I like to keep it that way. 
    
    Fifth, (This is on the aside) many cultures do not use wedding rings or
    any other formal form of symbolism in the marriage ceremony. 
    U.S. customs are not practiced world wide.  And there are more
    ceremonies in the world where the woman wears a ring but the man
    doesn't... I don't claim to agree with it (What's good for the Gander
    is good for the Goose in my own opinion).  But the concept that a man
    wears a ring to show he's married is not often so and there is a note
    string in here somewhere that deals with men who don't wear rings, in
    it there are a lot of different reasons why a man doesn't, and given
    certain situations I'd venter a woman wouldn't wear one either.  (Such
    as working around heavy equipment with your hands... ever have a ring 
    crushed into the bone?  My father nearly lost his finger because of it,
    and now has damage to the tendon that will never heal (The scar tissue
    that built up over the healed area caused the tendon to "shrink"). 
    
    Finally... I'm tired of arguments in this note string... so I'm going
    to pass on any more comments, obvisously you have your opinion and I
    have mine and we aren't going to agree on it.  (In other words we're
    both stubborn...;-)).  
    
    Skip

    re -.1
    > [if] a person does not bring up there private familey life with 
    > every TD&H at work [it] doesn't mean he's hiding something...
    
    To me, "private family life" is info about family finances, or what
    goes on in the bedroom, etc.  If you take the stance suggested in the
    above quote, after a while you must have to try real hard to avoid 
    admitting (even to TD&H) that you _have_ a family life.  Heck, do you 
    even have a _life_?!  I know, to each his own, but I find it MIGHTY
    STRANGE that some of these people won't own up to the existence of
    their own SOs/family members.  We're not talking about the cut and
    color of their underwear, people--just that they EXIST!
          
    Leslie
    

    The real difference may be that one doesn't discuss anything outside of
    work without a "relationship of trust" being established.  I am not one
    for small talk about the weather, sports, plays, or such.  What I talk
    about with people at work are subjects I know we have in common,
    namely, work.  _If_ I spend my break or lunch time with someone, then
    _maybe_ I'll mention something about my home life, but probably I'll
    continue to talk about work related subjects.
    
    On the other hand, there is little risk that anyone would think that I
    am "on the make".
    
    Dick

   Wow, Skip, did you get up on the wrong side of the bed this morning?


   							Terza

    Guess I'm more of a minority than I thought....
    
    For the general "involved" case, whether with an acquaintance, friend,
    or lover, it's simply that I try to respect other people's privacy. 
    I'm pretty free and easy about publicizing my own life, but, when
    possible, I leave other people out of my stories, or use an anonymous
    phrase like "a friend" or a slightly less anonymous phrase like "an
    artist friend" or "my roommate".  It wasn't until after living with
    someone for 3 or 4 years that I started doing the "X says" business.
    
    I probably got into the habit when I was in high-school, when being TOO
    open about one's romantic life could rapidly curtail it.  But, given
    the vagaries of sentiment, lust, and friendship, it seemed like a good
    habit to keep -- it just seems like too many opportunities for
    embarrassment to the other party.  As a result, even my best friends
    usually only find out about new "relationships" weeks after they've
    started, if at all.
    
    But I've never been engaged or married, partly because I figured the
    _point_ of those actions was to lose one's privacy.  (Of course, after
    8 years, the point was kind of moot, but...)  In the particular case of
    .0, after two months of daily phone calls with someone that he met
    after getting engaged, yeah, this sounds kind of strange...  How about
    all three of you getting together for dinner some time?  That should
    set things straight for everyone, or at least make for an interesting
    dinner.
    
    Ray