Conference quark::human_relations-v1

    Although I have no answers for your specific problem, I can answer the
    percentage question of UP time and DOWN time in a relationship by
    saying this:
    
    As long as the UP time exceeds the DOWN times, I stay.  And I'm not
    talking about a 51 - 49 % split, I'm talking more along the 80% good
    and 20% bad.  If I am getting the things I need, and am able to give
    the things that my partner needs to him, then I'm okay, and so is the
    relationship!
    
    Hope your situation clears up!
    
    Jill
    

    Honesty is a MUST.
    You don't mention marriage, but relationships, how long stay in a
    relationship when there are squeletons in the closet? till one has had
    enough, I guess, but in a MARRIAGE (I personally do not accept
    infidelity or infidelities) I could not live with a person who has
    betrayed my trust, marriage entails monogamy and I take it only that
    way...
    Please realize that that is the way I see marriage, as a sacrament and
    a vow for life....
    
    Honest to God, I just don't know how I would react to something like
    that... it would end my trust immediately, that much I do know.  What I
    would do?  (after 27 yrs of marriage and trust we could not even think
    of doing something like that to each other! it would kill us.)

    I usually scrap it after 10% down time.  I'll work like hell to
    fix it, but after that point I've learned it doesn't help to hold on.
    
    
    
                                L.J.

    
    re:.2
    
    I coompletely agree, infidelities are unexceptable in marriage or
    even a relationship pondering a sacrament such as marriage. 
    
      To the basenoter:
    
     Your mate should have had enough respect for your feelings not to
    engage in a short lived romance regardless of any temptation. Let me
    also say that I think you are a strong person for forgiving her. But,
    having been in that situation myself, I found nothing was the same
    after the occurance ie: trust, intimacy. It would be a rare thing if
    you gained back what she lost for both of you. What is it you have
    thats special now? You can get the same treatment from a non commited
    lover. You should definetly re-evaluate your relationship with this
    person. She sounds shallow to me... 
    
    
    
    

I lived through a similar situation with my now ex.  What I found was that
I could forgive him for the infidelities but I couldn't forget that they
happened, that my trust was betrayed.  And I found that I couldn't open 
myself up enough to get back the emotional intimacy that, for me, is 
necessary in a healthy, committed relationship.

Your relationship will never be the same.  However, if your partner can re-commit
to your relationship and to you and if you can trust her enough to accept
her commitment then I think there's a chance that the marriage will survive.
It won't be easy but it may be worth it to you.

Nanci 

    This bothers me, what are you doing taking a vote?  What daley the
    results and if you personally fall into what everyone else says dump
    the relationship?  
    
    The answer to your question is in YOU not me or anyone else in this 
    conference.  How much are YOU willing to accept?  What is unresonable
    for you?  How often to YOU think about leaving the retationship?  Is 
    it often enough for YOU to consider doing something about it?  
    
    I'm sorry but basically a situation like this is a matter of the people 
    involved... and no matter how many people you talk to, ultimatly it's 
    going to come down to what YOU think is right.  Asking us how we feel 
    and wht we would do doesn't give you an answer, and regarldess as to if 
    you agree with it or not, it breaks down to what you feel is right.
    
    If you don't like summer squash, are you going to like it because 
    most of the other people in here do?
    
    Rather then asking everyone elses opinion on what's right, I think 
    you should sit down with yourself or even a counselor and figure out 
    answers that feel right for you!
    
    If leaving the relationship feels like the right thing to you, then do
    it, to hell with what I or anyone else feels about it.  If staying and 
    making things work feels right, then that's what you need to do.  If 
    staying and tring to make it work for a given period of time feels
    right.... otherwise, you can always say, "Well, I wasn't going to 
    leave the relationship, but everyone else 'said' 'felt' 'beleive'
    etc... I should soooooo..." and if it feels like you made a big mistake 
    by walking away from it... "It was there fault, they said,..." well, 
    I"m sorry but the answers you are looking for are not here... not now, 
    not ever.  And I for one feel sorry that you seem to need my (or anyone 
    elses) guidence in determining what is right for you.  And that's is
    the bottom line.  Doing what is right for you.
    
    Skip

    RE: anon
    
                   Every relationship is different.  I am sure you have
    felt this in your own dating life.  What people will and will not take,
    seems to me, to be dependent on the relationship.  What works in one
    will not necessarily work in another.  Also I would be careful with
    others view.  Too often we allow "society" to dictate our views on a
    given subject.  A good example is a small child going to a dentist...
    if the child hears "Boy, *THAT* hurt!", then he/she is going to relate
    the dentist to pain.  
    
                    Forgivness is hard...not everyone can do it and that
    doesn't make them "bad"....its just real.  An affair is just that..an
    affair....its real and its more common than we like to think.  I like
    to think that I can make a mistake...and be forgiven for it.  I may be
    *SO* embarrassed by it that I can't ask for the forgivness.  I may not
    even "be able" to say "I'm sorry".  But that doesn't mean that I'm not.
    
    
    Dave

    The following reply has been contributed by a member of our community,
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    otherwise.

				Steve






    How important is s*e*x in our daily lives? Is it, and should it be *the
    be all and the end all* of a relationship. I am disturbed that so many
    people build it (sex) to be of such high proportions. OK so it is not
    the act it it the trust and all the other mystery and complications
    that we build into it. But at the end of the day our partner is allowed
    to do just about anything with another person except.. shhhh (sex).
    Before I raise the hackles of, the moral majority, let me explain that I
    do not advocate promiscuity, polygamy or anything shocking or alien to
    our culture. I advocate.. tolerance, forgiveness and love (or or that
    what is alien to our culture). I also advocate putting shhhh (sex) into
    proportion. It's importance should be kept relative to our daily lives.
    time wise. Consider the following example.. partner A, works long
    hours, comes home late, takes work home. partner B, on a busines trip
    slips out of hotel room and does the unthinkable.
    
    Which one was unfaithful?
    
    If my partner made a mistake, then I would look inwards for the
    problem, I would consider this to be a cry for help. I would try to
    find out where I had made a mistake. A promiscuous partner is something
    else.
    

    
    Well...I have been married to the same man for 20+ years.
    He is my best friend...my lover...my best critic. We fight and
    make love and 'rassle' with problems and our ten-year-old just like 
    everybody else.
    
    Perhaps we are more careful of each other's feelings than some I
    know...I think of him _first_ as my best friend...that way I always ask
    myself..."would I say that to Duffy?" [another very close friend] If
    the answer is "no", then I re-phrase the comment. Propinquity should
    not breed contempt...in other words...one should not be _less_ polite
    to one's mate than to one's friends. More honest, perhaps...but never
    less careful of one's feelings.
    
    And I have now re-written my next sentiment about 20 times trying to
    get it said in such a way that will elliminate the hate mail and yet
    get my point across.
    
    Fidelity is not an issue in our marriage. I am not suggesting that it
    _shouldn't_ be an issue in yours...or anyone else's. Nor, am I
    suggesting that sleeping around is a way to make a marriage work! The
    shelf life on that sort of behavior is _very_ short. I am just saying
    that 20 some odd years ago, we decided that of all the crises we would
    have to face, that the happenstance of one of us finding ourselves in
    bed with someone else was _not_ going to be grounds for giving up on
    the commitment we were making to _work_ at our marriage. That
    commitment is more important than the possibility of a casual sexual
    encounter.
    
    And, no. I don't know [nor would I ask]. And no, he doesn't know [nor 
    would he ask]. That is the whole point...it is a non-topic. For 20
    years it has been a non-topic.
    
    Melinda
    

>    Questions;
>
>    How often do you have bad feelings about your relationship vs. the
>    good feelings?  Ratio?  ( ie...80% good vs. 20% bad ) 

This lady whose relationship may certainly be viewed as 'long term'
(she has he been married for over 30 years and had dated that guy for over
a year before they got married) said she's rate her relationship
at the 80% good, 20% poor range. 


>   At what point would you leave the relationship?

She pondered this for a while, then said she'd consider leaving if
the down side got to be 90%, but she'd start treating the
relationship looooong before it got to that. 

This attitude explains --at least in part-- why that relationship
has been so good, for so long. In a word: commitment. If two people
decide beforehand that they are not leaving, period, then there is a
very good chance that they will never need to. 

-- Ron 

    re: .9 (Melinda)
    
         I liked that...especially the part about talking to your
    mate as though they were another friend.  I had some similar thoughts
    in my last relationship, but never quite found those words...too
    bad, it might have helped.   :-}
    
    Frederick
    

    Your story is very sad.  It is funny that you can't predict the future
    and dont know what is going to happen from day to day.  I think you
    have a relationship that is definatley worth salvaging.  Try to reason
    with your wife in giving it another chance.  There has to be more good
    then bad in a relationship or it just is not going to work out.  You
    can make it good if you both work at it and give it another try.  
    
    
    Best of Luck!
    
    
    Lynne

      I like to thank those who have responded so far. Especially those who
    dared to share their very personal beliefs and thoughts on this topic.
    
    Also, 
      ( The following is NOT a flame...)
      To .6 ( Skip ),  Yes, of course, the decision to stay or not is mine 
    to make, that's obvious to me. I happen believe it's a benefit to 
    consider the opinion of others. That does not mean to LIVE by them. 
    And certainly, NOT hold them accountable for just sharing their
    feelings!  There are plenty of intelligent people out there with valid
    thoughts on  the matter. IMHO. 
    

    I also could not help but respond to .6
    
    Isn't this conference set up so that we can talk about our problems
    and get other people's opinions?  If other people's opinions 
    should not be listened to or considered why don't we just get rid
    of this conference.
                                                                 
    Kathy

    The way the base note reads, I get the feeling that he isn't seeking 
    advice, but rather trying to form an opinion based on "votes".  
    
    To me, there's something wrong with that.  Seeking advice is okay, I
    have no problem with it, but to base one's own decisions solely on 
    the opinion of other folks, is "sick".  
    
    Maybe I mis-read the intentions but it sure sounded that way to me.
    
    Skip

    I don't think base noter is trying to form general opinion based on
    votes to make a personal decision.
    
    It doesn't seem friendly or appropiate to knock someone's questions
    anyway in this manner.                

I recently took a book out of the library called Bailing Out. I don't remember
the authors, but it is in the "new book" section. Bailing Out gives some
practical advise and some screening test to give you an idea of your 
relationship is over.

Regards,

Linda

    Re.16
    
    I gave him my opinion and told him what it sounded like to me.  If that
    made him stop and take a good look at himslef and his relationship,
    then I fulfilled the basic idea of this conference.  If I angered him
    and he took a swing at me, then he anaylised why he took the swing, 
    again, I fullfilled the basic premise of this conference.  He asked for 
    peoples opinions I gave him mine, based on what he wrote and how it
    sounded to me.  If nothing else, it did make him enter more information 
    about the situation and how he felt about it.  
    
    I'm not sorry for what I said... arguing with me about it, won't change
    my mind.  From what I read, it sounded like he wanted to base his
    opinion and decisions on the taley of everyone's votes of what is/isn't 
    a good relationship.  To me, that's a cop out.   It's one thing to ask
    for advice something all together different to ask people to give you
    your opinion and make your decision.  Asking people how they handled a 
    situation or if they have suggestions on how to deal with a situation
    is one thing.  It's part of the fact gathering part of coming to a
    decisions.... learning what will/won't work from others past
    experiences.  Basing your decision solely on the information gathered
    and making taley marks on what works and doesn't work then forming your 
    opinion only on that information isn't.  There are too many unknowns,
    to many veriables, and to many "little characteristics" that are
    unknown about these two people.  
    
    I believe it's Steve who's P/N says "Free advise is worth every cent"
    Truer words were never spoken.  What works for me won't work for you,
    and what you chose to do to resolve a problem isn't what I would do.  
    It may be similar, but if nothing else, the fact that it's YOU not ME 
    who is resolving the problem, creates an entirely different solution to 
    it.  
    
    I'm not against free advise... I think it's a valuable tool.  But
    that's just what it is... A TOOL.  When we stop looking at it as such,
    as a sorce of viable working references to solving a problem, when we 
    start looking at it as THE solution to the problem or think that if we 
    pose the question/problem right... gather all the facts and write out a 
    taley on it.  Then we've lost the answer while searching for the
    question.  A friend of mine once siad "There are no right or wrong
    answers to a problem, just variable solutions."  He meant there are 
    no absolute solutions, and what worked or will work for one person
    won't for someone else.  
    
    If I think soneone is losing sight of that, then I'll jump right on the 
    same band wagon again.  I don't mind offering advice or telling someone 
    how I solved a similar problem.  But if it sounds like they want to
    base there answer on what I did instead of just considering what I say
    as an additional factor to work with when trying to come up with a
    workable solution to a problem.  That's not what I'm here for.  I don't 
    offer my advice as the guiding light to live by.  I don't want the 
    responsibility of being "The Reason IT Didn't Work".  I would prefer 
    being "Part of the answer came from..."  "The advice came from and
    AFTER I considered it..." 
    
    Well, enought on that.... I've blathered long enough.  What it boils
    down to is a simple mistake of what I read and what he intended. 
    Still, if it's wrong of me to point out to someont to consider what
    they read as options... NOT solutions.  This much for certain.  If I 
    think someone is going to be sorry or is going to line up things so
    that they can come back at me with accusations (or anyone else in here) 
    of being the reason there lives didn't work out right, I'll jump right
    up and make the same sort of statements again.  If it ticks them off 
    "Them's the breaks" I won't be held responsible for someone elses life,
    decisions, or mistakes.  I don't force my opinion on anyone.  I tell
    them how I solved a similar problem, or take an objetive view and make 
    a call of what I would do or try. 
    
    Skip