Conference quark::human_relations-v1

    
    Hi Ken,
    
    I'll be praying for the two of you.  You do have something special that
    a lot of people never find.  I hope you can work it out.
    
    Rosie
    

    Ken, what a sad story! It seems that your wife, by trying to be perfect
    forgot to be "human" instead and accept herself with qualities,
    faults, and what is most important, accept others and their faults too!
    
    Anger... that is the most destructive feeling a person can have and...
    there are so much anger arround! if we think of it, anger at what? at a
    sock misplaced somewhere? at some sweating? do we put more value to an
    object than to the person near us?  Gosh, tell her it is OK to be sad,
    it is OK to be mad (within reason), it is OK to feel peaceful, it is OK to
    feel happy, it is OK to feel lost... all those feelings is what makes us
    HUMAN BEINGS, LOVABLE, ALIVE, and worth living for!
    
    She knows she does not want a divorce and still is going ahead to get it
    because once she decides something she sticks to her guns... that is to
    be downright stuborn and unreasonable! she knows she's doing a mistake
    and goes on making it?
    
    She loves you and she does not know how to express it because she is
    angry with you? if she loves you how can she keep being angry with you,
    for any thing you do that is not up to her liking? the only possitive
    thing to do is SAY it, is it so difficult to say: look honey your living
    the socks on the floor bothers me, please pick them up and put them in
    the hamper... or, please try to keep things neat, or... you name it, but
    I find that it is extremelly hard and drastic to fill for divorce
    because of anger at you? anger/love at you? it seems that she really
    concentrated in your bad habits and totally ignored your qualities,
    your love, your understanding...
    
    I don't know how old either one of you are, but your wife, (in my own
    opinion, it not too grown-up).  Six to 8 years into a marriage is when
    things get a bit unsteady (the pink cloud gets out and reality gets in)
    but, it is a period that we have to go through to grow, to gain, to
    experience, not to get divorced! please, give marriage a chance! if
    both you you seek the ultimate feeling of being in love, on top of the
    world, in ever-present bliss... you will both be dissapointed because
    that is unreal and lasts brief periods of time....
    if you're looking for something stable, deep, permanent... you have to
    be ready to be happy, be unhappy, sad at times, blissfull others, also
    mad at times... but in a whole, HAPPY MOST OF THE TIME... that is what
    marriage is all about, a compound of all these feelings mixed in with
    the love that you already have for your wife...  If she accepts you as
    YOU ARE, (not a picture of what you should or could be) as a whole,
    then you're in the right direction, if she doesn't.... she's still
    looking for a blue prince to come in a flying horse and rescue her from
    this earthy surroundings?  Come on, adults have to be a bit closer to
    reality, those dreams belong to growing kids...
    
    Please do not be offended by my words, nothing is farther from my mind
    than cause hurt, I just get a bit impatient at so much insecurity, low
    self-image, that we tend to have when it should be the contrary, the
    best computer ever built is not the 9000's or any other IBM et al, but
    our own brains, yet, we use only a tiny, tiny part of it... our
    emotions, insecurities are all in there... why not try to troubleshoot
    the problem instead of throwing the whole machine away?
    
    It might only need a tiny small piece of software and you have a
    wonderful powerful thing going for years and years on end!
    
    (mind you, I've been married for a looong time and I can tell that you
    have something GOOD worth to fight for... talk to her!)
    
    I send my best wishes and please, keep expressing your thoughts, that
    helps, and keep talking to her and working to keep your marriage alive.
    My best wishes for you...
    
     

    re: .2
    
    It was the councelor that had us "focus on our problems/issues". I
    thought that this was fine but never lost sight of the beautiful big
    picture. My wife made this "viewpoint" of our relationship the big
    picture. She worried about the problems, it kept her up at night, she
    felt depressed because she couldn't come up with any answers.
    
    When I got depressed because we couldn't find the answers, I took a
    step back and looked at the big picture and our problems didn't look so
    bad. She sees the little picture as the big picture. 
    
    >>Anger... that is the most destructive feeling a person can have and...
    >>there are so much anger arround!
    
    With my wife, the anger was very bad, but even worse was the confusion
    that she had to deal with. Anger she could "bottle" up, but the
    confusion that counceling brought on caused her to really feel lost,
    out of control, that she couldn't handle it. 
    
    Here is a big area of observed difference. Counceling made me feel
    better. I felt like a weight was being removed with each session. My
    wife got more and more nervous with each session. I think each session
    made her feel more confused and lost.
    
    By the way: I'm 35 and she is 29.
    
    Ken

    
    RE: .2 --
    
    I know you probably know...but I feel I have to say anyway...
    
    The single most prevalent cause for a person feeling that they
    should not show anger or be angry because it means _they_ are a
    bad person is coming from a dysfunctional family. A family in which,
    for instance, Daddy gets mad if anybody does anything bad or says
    anything is wrong...so nothing does or says anything. People don't
    _choose_ to be raised in situations like that...it happens. And it
    creates people who hold everthing inside until it is an avalanch
    that either destroys them or the people they love. I am sure this
    woman is more distressed or upset with herself than amyone else will
    ever be...but she doesn't know _how_ to not be the way she is, and that
    is driving her crazy, because the way she is destroying the man she
    loves. [Do you see the innate hopelessness/helplessness in the
    Catch-22?] My point is that it is not all that black and white.
    
    If she, for instance, grew up in a family where Mom and Dad yelled at
    each other all the time...or Dad yelled at Mom all the time in abusive
    ways...then her promise to herslef could very well have been " I will
    never do that to the man I love"...or somesuch. That would result in
    her artifically repressing any feeling that might lead to her showing
    her frustrations or anger. Her 'feeling' her way through things is a
    way to sense what she can say that will make no waves...regardless of
    whether that is what she _wanted_ to say. When the dam breaks, there is
    so much anger there that rationality starts to wander away...and that
    threatens to throw her over into a loss of self-control...the one thing
    she has promised that she will never do. She is rather caught at that
    point in a trap of her own making that has only one escape...a removal
    of the relationship.
    
    RE: .0
    
    Offering advice is so stupid, I mean, who am I to even think I have a
    clue? But, I think she will not feel safe until she has some distance
    from you...since you are the person she doesn't want to hurt and she
    thinks her very being is hurting you. Have you considered giving her
    some real space by moving out for a while? She might not feel this
    necessity to 'stick to her guns' if she had some room. Maybe she
    wouldn't feel so compelled to end the situation if she could distance
    herslef from the physical aspect of it for a while...since that seems
    to be the thing that has reacted to the stress.
    
    She must feel so terrified...if she stays, she is going to come apart;
    if she goes she is going to come apart and so are you...she must feel
    rather no-win right now.
    
    And of course, you feel like h*** too.
    
    I know hugs from strangers don't mean much...but have one anyway.
    
    Melinda
                                                         

    I have never heard such a sad but beautiful love story.
    I hope you and wife can find someway to keep the love
    you share its very rare in these times.  Not everyone
    can have it. Keep trying your best to get to the root
    of the problem don't give her up until you'll have
    exhausted all possible roots to follow. 
    Hang in there!!!!!
    

    Ken,
    
    I havn't read all the replies here, (don't have the time right now). 
    But may I suggest that you bring up the possibility of a seperation 
    before going through with a divorce?  It sounds like (from your 
    discription) that the main problem is she needs some time to herself 
    to sort herself out.  Also, the feel and logical sides of solving a 
    problem... that is the CLASSIC example of men and women complaints 
    about each other in something like 75 % of counseling sessions....
    
    Women "feel" the solution and men try to find the answer through logic.
    
    It's one of the differences that make us unique to our genders. 
    Something else, and this really bothers me, you said that the counselor
    gave up on helping your wife sort through the anger.  To me that's a 
    sure fire clue that the counselor isn't right for you and her or the 
    situation you're both in.  I STRONGLY recommend you inform the
    counselor and have her/him suggest someone else who can help your wife
    explore her own feelings more deeply.  (There are all KINDS of
    therapists who have all kinds of ways for helping in these situations.)
    
    Skip

    
    
    Maybe your wife could go to a separate councellor to help her 
    sort out her feelings of anger.  Having you there might be a 
    hinderance to her.  
    
    I grew up in a home where no one raised their voices, and the
    anger was to some extent bottled up.  Now I find myself catching
    myself doing this.  When I do (or when I am called on it) I try
    to express my feelings of anger, but it is hard because I really
    was never taught conflict resolution skills as a kid.  Also, I
    find that my SO has a tendency to negate my feelings of anger
    because he has a very hard time with folks he loves being angry
    with him.  So I found that once I did try to express my anger I 
    was told that it was wrong.
    
    You might want to discuss this with your wife.  She may not know
    how to express her anger to you, and you may be negating her feelings
    when she does though you may be unaware of this.
    
    
    I hope you both can work things out.  There sounds like there is
    a very strong love between the both of you.
    
    

    Occasionally when we, the female, express anger, the man stereotypically
    precieves it to be nagging.  It sounds as though your wife tried very
    hard for a very long time to be non-stereotypical.  In making you happy
    she sacrificed her own happiness.  
    She knows you very well and thus knows how to make you happy.  Somewhere
    along the way there began to be a conflict or a tugging.
    She may feel as if you will not accept her and remain happy with her if
    she begins to express herself which may at times be in conflict with
    your views.
    It sounds as though she would rather leave you than risk losing your
    love. 

Thank all of you for your replies....

Thank you Mary Ann and Susan for your mail messages...

RE: .4 and .7

My wife's family doesn't show anger. She has said that her father never showed
anger the entire time she was growing up. I've been to her parent's house and
seen a situation where the father said something that should have caused anger
in the mother (at least I thought so) and it caused her to become depressed. My
wife believes that anger is directed outward and that you are trying to HURT
the other person. BUT depression does two things, it doesn't hurt the other
person and it can override the anger. This is how my wife feels. This is how
she was raised. Depression is ok, anger is not.

RE: .8

I think you it something right on the head, my wife hates to loose. She might
rather leave me knowing that I love her dearly than work with me wondering if
she might loose my love. This is something that I really need to think about.

MORE INFO:

From Susan's mail message:

>>Louise Hay's "You can Heal Your Life" says that the following (negative)
>>pattern can be the Probable Cause of nosebleeds:

>>"A need for recognition. Feeling unrecognized and unnoticed. Crying for
>>love."

I think I see a HUGE MISTAKE that I've made in our relationship. I want to put
it in here, even thought it is really painful. I hope those of you out there
don't make this same mistake. "A NEED FOR RECOGNITION". That really hammered
something home. I've been working for DEC for 8 years now and I am in Sales
Support and my main function in this role is to solve problems. With what is
going on in our company, I've become a person who can solve problems very, very
fast. Sales people bring me problems (Opportunites may be a better word)and I
solve them. These are BUSINESS problems. The solutions are rational, logical,
non-emotional. I'm fast at problem solving, the sales force say that I'm good.
I'm getting "STROKED" for this behavior at work. My PROBLEM is that I use the
same behavior at home. Let's take an example: My wife works on some vacation
plans for a week. She bring me her "ideas" and what do I do. I either Modify
them, Replace them with better ideas, or attempt to shoot holes in her ideas.
In this example, I came up with a COUNTER idea in 10 minutes complete with
action plans, cost, and major milestones. (This is so sick, sounds just like
work). NOW I realize that this ISN'T what she was looking for. She wanted
acceptance, she wanted to show me SELF-WORTH! 

When I hear "What do you think of ....." I take it to mean, try to find holes
in this, or can you come up with something better. That's not what she meant at
all. Thinking back over the last 6 years there sure were more "What do you
think of..." back in the old days than there are now. This might explain why
she never came to me and said "What do you think of divorce..." She just went
out and filed. Maybe this even explains why she doesn't want to talk about
divorce. She just wants to do it. It's a "knee-jurk" reaction for me to look
for holes in ideas, look for counter ideas, try to change things.

She has lost herself in me. My ideas almost always seemed better to both of us.
I never realized that that could HURT someone. This is why she doesn't want to
discuss a separation. I've been to negotiation and advanced negotiation skilles
classes. I use this stuff every day. I think she wonders if I can talk her out
of it, but then DEEP DOWN INSIDE it's like a knife in her stomach. She's doing
it MY WAY AGAIN.

Moral here: The skills that work at the office many times are exactly what you
	    don't want to use in the home.

thank you for reading my dribble....

Keep the comments flowing....They are healing me....

Ken

    
    
    Ken,
    
    
    When a woman tells a man of a problem, she is more than likely not
    looking for the man to solve the problem.  She knows the solutions
    already, she wants to discuss the problem and the subsequent solutions.
    This is a male/female communtication problem.
    
    
    Your wife sounds like she internalizes anger in the same way that I 
    was taught.  It turns into depression because there is no outward
    release.  Is she aware of her paterns of dealing with anger?  Has
    she discussed this with a mental health professional?  
    
    
    Have you discussed with your wife the conclusion you spoke of in
    your last note?  
    
    
    Her mistrust of anger seems to be a direct result of her upbringing.
    Maybe she is afraid of being angry with you because she thinks that
    you will become upset.  Having had similar background as her family
    in this area I know all to well that this is a real fear.  Not having
    seen anger expressed while a child, she really has no idea of what
    your reaction would be.  Anger is not something to be afraid of unless
    it leads one to be a danger to themselves or someone else.
    
    
    
    Hope this helps a bit!
    
    Michele

    Something a counselor once told me and I still remember it, think about
    it -- Depression is anger turned inward.
    
    I felt there had to be a lot more to this story, and .9 confirmed it. 
    Who on earth would want to be put down like that all the time.  No
    wonder she wants out.  I would.
    
    I've been in relationships where the man would always try to one-up me
    in situations.  I eventually learned to recognize what was going on,
    and either call him on it, or muster up a greater degree of
    assertiveness and really push the situation.  It's not a pleasant way
    to live.
    
    While I really feel for you, you obviously love this woman a great
    deal, it sounds to me like you have totally overwhelmed her over the
    past 8 years, and she has lost her"self".  She will never be happy
    until she regains a sense of her "self", it's what makes us whole.
    
    I, too, was raised in a family without any expression of anger.  Though
    I've been gone from that for 20 years, the expression of anger makes me
    damned uncomfortable still, and lingers with me long after the anger is
    gone.  I simply never learned how to deal with anger, or express my own
    anger.  I'm better at it than before, but not as good at it as my
    husband is!  He both expresses anger and takes it a lot better than I. 
    But then, his family is like that too -- extremely expressive, both
    negatively and positively.
    
    For what it's worth -- let her go.  Give her time, back off a bit.  If
    she does love you enough to want to be with you she will come back.
    

    This story could be my sister's marriage ... *exact* same scenario.
    
    We are taught as young girls to submit to men, to keep feelings of
    anger or doubt inside, so as to not cause conflict with men.  This
    makes us look better so we can "hook 'em".  At least that's what most
    mothers from my generation (I'm 29) taught -- and mine was no
    exception.  In submitting, you lose your self-respect, sense of
    self-worth.  I can well imagine why your wife is leaving.  I've never
    been married, and one of the reasons why is that I'm deathly afraid of
    losing my own feeling of self-worth.  Too many of my relationships have
    turned into me submitting and keeping my mouth shut instead of sticking
    up for what I believe in or just saying "I want to do this", instead of
    "What do you think about doing this" and getting shot down.
    
    Give her time and keep up the counseling.  It sounds like you have a
    good grasp on your behavior and what is causing her pain.  Now if you
    can only stick to changing that negative behavior pattern instead of
    just promisng a change and delivering the same old behavior, even if
    this relationship ends -- your next one will be much healthier.
    
    Good luck.
    
    Tammi

    RE: All of you....
    
    The easiest thing for me to do is look at what was wrong with my wife,
    the hardest thing is to look at what is wrong with me. Looking at what
    my wife did wrong will not help me at all in my life without her.
    Looking at what I did wrong will help me from doing the same mistakes
    again. 
    
    The nice thing about notes is that I can read and re-read what all of
    you have put in here.
    
    >>Now if you can only stick to changing that negative behavior pattern 
    >>instead of just promisng a change and delivering the same old behavior,
    >>even if this relationship ends -- your next one will be much healthier.
    
    Very difficult situation, this behavior is what I do at DEC that I get
    praise for. I exercise it and grow it every day. It has become almost
    automatic.  At least I now am aware of what is going on.
    
    My wife is going on a trip over the Memorial Holidays. It was a trip
    that we were going on together. It was to visit some relatives on her
    side of the family. The trip will be with her parents and sister. Now
    these relative all really love me and I love them. Now I will not be
    going. How do I feel. I thought about going home and discussing my
    feelings with my wife. Your notes made me think of how I might feel if
    I couldn't do this for whatever reasons. I would feel anger, depression
    and a physical 'yuckyness'. 
    
    More important than understanding (there goes the logic again) what is
    going on with her, I now have a 'glimpse' of what she must be feeling.
    
    

    Let's hope the connection lasts long enough for me to type in this
    note. It's late Monday night,my wife has been gone for four days now. I
    miss her dearly. This is the first time in the 6 years of our marriage
    that I have been the one to be at home while she is away. She has had
    to go through this while I've been away at training. No wonder she is
    not ever home, without her this place is very empty. She has called me
    twice from Michigan, each time we speak of how much we miss each other
    and that we love each other very much.
    I'm so confused, she is the one that has filed for divorce, yet she
    tells me how much she loves me and misses me. I was forward enough to
    ask her if this meant she changed her mind about the divorce. She said
    that this was something "she had to do". I just don't understand???
    There is so much that we share, so much happiness. I still think that
    we have more in our relationship than most married people, maybe we are
    asking too much from ourselves?
    
    People in notes, help me to understand where we went wrong. There are
    two key words that my wife uses to discribe what is wrong; they are
    TRUST and FEELINGS. She says that she can no longer trust me with her
    feelings. This statement has been uttered at least 1000 times over the
    last 6 months, when I ask for more information, it gets so confusing.
    
    I tried asking for some help from a friend of my wife's who is also
    going through a divorce, may be she could give me some advice from a
    woman's point of view. Her divorce isn't final for another two months
    and she was going on a date. I don't want to make the same mistakes
    again, maybe I can still save this marriage, may be not? 
    
    The things I feel sure of:
    
    	1. The love is true. I really love her and she really loves me.
    	2. We are each other's best friends.
    	3. We have two lawyers that are willing to tear the other person
    	   apart. BUT we can't do that.
    	4. We still trust each other with everything. (With the exception
    	   of her trust of me with her feelings)
    	5. I've hurt her very deeply without intention.
    	6. I would take her back in a split second.
    	7. There is a beautiful 5 year old daughter involved.
    	8. We have both  been faithful during our 6 years of marriage.
    
    Things that I wonder about:
    
    	Even though she filed, she is asking me to "do the divorce". In
    other words, for me to get all the paper work done, to make the divorce
    happen. We both are dragging our feet on this. Just call use chicken.
    
    	Separation...We can't afford it. My wife only works 10 hours a week
    for her parents. It's a famiily chiropractic center. She will have to
    get a full time job to support herself, but she is scared to try. She
    has never worked more than 15 hours a week in her life.
    
    	Hope for some advise from you  out there.
    
    ken

    Ken,
    
    It sounds like she has made her dicisions within herself and rather
    then give you the opportunity to talk her out of them, she has made up 
    her mind to rebel against your ability to logically conlude why your 
    way is better.  Still, she calls you and says she misses you a lot.
    She admits she still loves you.  Theres two things that I myself hate,
    A person who is always right, and a person who shows me I'm always
    wrong.  It sounds like you've been both with her for a very long time.
    Now, rather then give you a chance to do it again, she has reached the 
    point where her anger and frustrations have "plugged her ears" to you.
    
    What to do?  Find a couselor who will discuss things with you.  And be 
    willing to speak your words to her.  She can't hear you right now, but 
    having the words (your own words) told to her from someone else, may 
    still reach into her past the static she has set up.  I strongly
    suggest a trial seperation before the divorce.  If you both love each
    other as much a you claim, then time apart will prove the disadavatages 
    to both of you.  While you are doing this, you will have to seek some 
    behaivor modification therapy.  It isn't hard to find, and can help you 
    use your problem solving skills at work, as well as apply a more
    understanding and sensitive ear to the things going on at home.  
    
    I DO want to congratulate you on your ability to SEE the problem... I 
    went to a psychologist for nearly 2 years while I was in the Navy,
    learning to just SEE my own problem along the same lines.
    
    ANother suggestion.  Digital offers a class on effect communications
    skills.  Take it!  It includes some skills you sound like you may need.
    
    Skills that teach you how to take her "What do you think of this"
    improve it, and give it back to her in a way that makes it a combined
    effort, instead of a take over...(Which it sounds like you do quite
    often).  It also shows how to speak openly about a problem, as well as 
    how to phrase a statement so that you aren't belittling a person, etc.
    
    So often people can get what they think is the best solution from a
    problem and leave the presenter feeling like a million bucks.... simple 
    little things, like ending a critique with a positive statement instead
    of a negitive... (That is, when ending with a summery of + and -, give
    the - first, then the +... Overall it has a very different effect on a 
    person, and it's such a simple little thing.)
    
    There are other skills that are useful as well, this is just one
    example.
    
    Skip

    To trust with your feelings --
    
    If you put your feelings out on the table and they continually get
    stomped on, put down, or denied as valid, you stop putting your
    feelings on the table. You stop taking the risk.
    
    She: "Honey, I really love the ocean, and I'd love to spend our
    vacation, just the family, at a house in P-town this summer.  What do
    you think?"
    
    He:  "Gee, that sounds good, but you know Joe owns a house in the
    White Mountains and offered it to us for a week for nothing, I'd rather
    do that."
    
    Her message: I find peace being near the ocean and Id like to spend
    some time with you and our child as a family.
    
    His message: My preference is the mountains and since it's free it
    makes more sense, so let's do that.
    
    Subtle messages take place in all our communication and some times you
    havve to dig them out.
    
    Sounds like you have a very unassertive woman for a wife.  She wants
    YOU to push through the divorce?  Give me a break.  A good friend of
    mine pulled this with her husband.  He left her, and she insisted on
    him filing for divorce.  She wasn't gonna do it because it was his
    decision to leave.  My point that eventually she would want the divorce
    too, fell on deaf ears.
    
    She's never worked more than 15 hours a week, and then for her family's
    business?  Life is tough.
    
    You have a tough row ahead of you, and it sounds like she does too.  I
    wish you the best.
    

    It does'nt add up, in your initial note, you mention that your wife's 
    reasons for filing is a lack of "Physical" attraction/whatever, yet todate 
    you or any of the noters had mentionned it since; her friend is going
    through divorce and dating already? I have a slight "hunch" that her friend
    is a major catalyst behind your wife's filing. 
    You will need to find, may be with the help of a good counselor, exactly
    what the problems are, only then could you try to solve them.
    
    Here's wishing you the best!

    I too feel that your wife should see someone different to council her !
    perhaps another woman ..also I agree with Skip...maybe you should try
    seperation before divorce as Divorce is so final and you two really do
    seem as if you have something going..if only you could both comuniicate
    on that same wave length !!  I think your wife really does need to be
    reasurred that it is ok to shout out now and again...and as you love
    her you will understand if she wants to shout at you....you should be
    her best friend...and encourage her to do so ! Try bringing a little
    humour into it...."Oh I see your husbands gone out for the evening, so
    as your best friend I thought I would come around ...wanna talk ?"
    
    
    Good luck...though I don't honestly think you need it...time is all you
    need !  But *DO* give her some space.
    
    Tracie.

           -< There's a calm and rational solution for everything. >-
    
    	Of all places, I saw a quick "awareness portrayal" of stuffed
    anger in a skit on "Cheers". The young bartender was describing how he
    takes his feelings of anger and stuffs them into a bottle inside
    himself. Who ever the psychiatrist_character was turned to the mail
    man and said "tick-tock tick-tock tick-tock..." How True.
    
    	Personally, I think your wife's stuffed-anger-bomb is about to blow.
    One of the characteristics of an approaching explosion is increasing
    irrationality, which may be exemplified by her "filing" - even though
    she apparently loves you very much. Rational people dont "file"
    against the person they love - they seek to work things out. Or, seen 
    another way, perhaps she's going to blow up the situation before she 
    blows up herself. Whatever, her inability to express her anger is her 
    problem and it's her responsibility to do something about it. There
    are ways that the inability to express anger (appropriately) - as a
    problem - can be treated directly and there are practitioners who can 
    facilitate treatment.
    
    	I tend to react the same way as you, when someone comes to me
    with a problem: "The squirrels dug-up and ate all the bulbs I just
    planted!" My reactions have been "Well, I'll put up a fence so they
    wont get at them: Let's see, how big's a squirrel? (so I can guage
    the openings in the fence_material)" It's only recently in my life
    that I've *learned how* to do something different for someone upset
    by something - other than "address and solve" the problem. Comforting 
    someone else emotionally - addressing their feelings about something 
    instead of the person, place or thing they're upset about - is a skill 
    that you can learn as easily as any other, IMHO. As you'll perhaps
    note in this reply, I'm inately better at the former...
    
    	I think your wife's very angry with *you* over this kind of
    thing. I think that's the root of her "not being able to trust
    you with her feelings" - she's afraid that you wont address her
    on the emotional_bus - you'll be talking on the intellectual_bus
    instead, apparently per your usual. Since she's incapable of expressing
    this anger directly, perhaps _that's_ the source of her "filing" -
    a means of unconsciously delivering it to you. (She doesnt know
    why, it doesnt make sense even to her, but "she made a decision"
    and MUST see it through for some felt reason.)

    	I see something for each of you to accomplish, that may save your
    marriage! It sounds like a wonderful relationship you two have and
    I'm really rooting for you two working this out! These things 
    outlined here are quite necessary for each of you - in or out of the
    great sounding relationship you now have! If you fail this time and 
    yet do not address these problems, you both will likely repeat them;
    she will simply "bottle" with the next person until that one blows, 
    as you'll "business" your way right out of the next person's heart - 
    an wonder what happened again.
    
    	That her father is described as "never getting angry" is most
    interesting, because one way to never get angry is to convince yourself
    that there's a calm and rational solution for everything. Therefore,
    there's no need to ever feel anything, because "were calm and rational
    around here and we simply and methodically solve our problems". Skip
    right over the feelings part (oops!). Connect this conceptually
    with your "business problem" operational tendancy, and it's easy to
    see how she feels "comfortable" with you - it's what she's "used
    to". That the bottom fell out in time is indicative of the fact
    that love is *not* enough, one needs a full range of emotional support
    in order to be emotionally whole/healthy/happy too.
    
    	You can love someone and yet not be particularly emotionally supportive
    and nurturing to them. You may simply not know how, be particularly
    skilled at it, or work "that way".
    
    	Hope this helps!
    
    	Joe

    
    	I wonder if she asked you to file the divorce to A] see if
    	you would do it,, so that B] she could validate her feelings
    	of low self-worth by saying, `see, he doesn't care about me
    	since he did file for the divorce.' Not logical to you, but it
    	was the first thing that popped into my mind when I read that
    	particular reply.  She is very confused right now, and I hope
    	that you can at least get her to *postpone* divorce, don't threaten
    	her by once again saying `the better way to do this is [my way]
    	not filing for divorce'. Good luck to both of you.
    
    	Sherry
    

    
    	Sounds very familiar.  First, it can be worked out.  Second, it's
    hard, it hurts and requires enormous amounts of patience.  If she
    persists in the filing and actually going to court, you can file a
    petition to have her filing dismissed.  I did....and won.  My reasons
    supporting my petition were much the same as what you have stated in
    your notes.
    
    	Secondly, words aren't going to amount to a hill of beans at this
    point.  The only thing that is going to show her that just maybe she
    can risk trusting you with some of the her feelings is your actions.
    She needs to see a counselor for herself....to help her with her
    self-worth and to help her learn how to handle her anger (boy, can
    I identify with her!).  
    
    	You can only work on you.  You've done the hard part.  You've
    started looking at yourself.  Counseling can help you work through what
    you find.
    
    	If you really want to save your marriage (and from what I read in
    your notes, you do), DO NOT DO ANYTHING TO HELP THE DIVORCE ALONG.  .21
    has a very valid point in that.  Fight quietly and consistently.
    
    	Good luck and write off-line if you'd like.  Sounds like a page out
    of my life....
    
    Faith
    

    
    re .22
    
    I can't believe that you can actually file a petition to have someones
    divorce filing withdrawn.
    
    That sure sounds to me like you're saying "you obviously don't know
    what you're doing and everyone agrees with ME, you're incompetant
    so they won't even let you make a decision about your own life"..
    
    sounds to me that it was that kind of attitude that may have gotten
    the basenoter into this problem in the first place. 
    
    If *I* was the person filing, and you petitioned to have my wished
    negated, you may as wel kiss any chances GOODBYE of getting us back
    together.....what a slap in the face!
    
    

This note is being entered anonymously.  

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ken, I feel so badly for both of you.  I just hope you can work it out.  I
just wanted to share some of the feelings of the same sort that I have had 
throughout my (33 yr old marriage - Anniv. June 21)  You sound JUST LIKE MY 
husband.  Your wife sounds very much like myself.  He's also in Sales, a 
problem solver from the word GO....and has a flash temper.  We raised 3 sons 
and for the longest time I allowed him to rant and rave whenever he took a 
notion to for whatever reason.  That was until I went back to work after not 
having worked for over 22 years.  I stayed at home happily with the boys until 
finances made it necessary to return to the workforce. I think the work ex-
perience has made me stand up for myself a bit more and have more self-esteem. 

My husband's rationale on anger was that his father was moody and sulked when 
something made him mad (sometimes for weeks on end)and never really 
got angry. His own father before him had been the opposite ...a real tyrant 
and mean.  My husband decided at a very young age that he would never be like 
that.  And boy oh baby he wasn't.  So there really is a pattern to all of this 
that the folks in the file suggest.  I guess I am somewhat more self-assertive 
than your wife sounds because I can get angry...it's not a pretty sight I can 
assure you. But,it does feel good to get it out.  I throw dishes, slam doors 
and then cry alot. It takes me a long while to build to that crescendo but when 
I blow it's big time.  Something that you might try with your wife is have her
write down a list of things that really upset her about you and then in turn 
another list of things that she really appreciates about you.  Then perhaps some
time in the future you could do the same list for her when she's ready.
I had to do this to make sure I wasn't crazy quite recently.  I read the lists
to him (at a very receptive time) although the not so great list was longer
than the good list the good list had some really important things like being a
faithful husband and really loving our sons on it. Since that time things have 
been a little better.  He is becoming more sensitive to my feelings and more 
aware of the things that really hurt in the past.  So you see even though we 
have been married a very long time, you still have things to work out.  As you
can imagine our boys are a mixed bag of how to deal with emotions.  The first
son was always sweet tempered and avoided conflict.  The second was and still is
an independent risk taker but quite capable of expressing anger. 
The last son is the real worry.  He has an uncontollable temper when 
sufficeintly angered.  He may have problems as a result of this type of father.

You have a little daughter and I know you both must be very concerned for her.
As some folks have suggested I think also that you should not "enable" or help 
along your wife's intention  to get the divorce because after all you that's 
the last thing you want. I would ask her to compromise for the sake of your 
daughter and consider the trial separation.  You seem as though you can express
your feelings very well or you wouln't be in the notesfile.  I think you are on 
the right track in dealing with your anger outbursts that's part of the battle 
but don't be too hard on yourself either.  I think you are going more than half
way to resolve the problem.  Compromise is just that ...meeting someone half-way
My heart goes out to you as I have two married sons and hope that they can stay 
married.  I hope it doesn't offend anyone that I attempted to write in the file 
(anon.) 

Give your wife the space she needs and you may be surprised
at the outcome.  Meanwhile electronic hugs.....! 

Ann

How about some more advice from all of you out there....

The divorce is now a given. My wife has stopped the communication channels. I
cannot get through to her. She doesn't even want to talk about "US" anymore.
What I have done is to go through every room of our house and write down all
the items of interest (anything over $100). I gave this list to her and asked
her to write down next to each item whether it should be her's or mine. 

Was I surprised! 

Almost everything had her name next to it. Our house 1/2 paid for,
HERS. The two vehicles (a MiniVan and Sprint HERS). All the major appliances
HERS. All the furniture HERS. What I got from HER list was my clothes, some
suitcases and my books. She also wants 1/2 of my stocks and my retirement plan,
child support and maintenance. The child support and maintenance amount to 1/2
of my monthly take home pay.

Here is my delima.. I still care for her very much and want her to be
successful in her single life, but I don't know if I can be successful in my
single life with these restrictions. My wife has never made more than $50.00 a 
week and has not made any plans to work after the divorce, she says that what 
she will get from me should take care of her needs. (GULP!) I did all the yard 
work, house work, etc. What she contributed was doing the laundry (I ironed), 
and one meal a week (I did the dishes afterwords). I bathed our child, read 
her books, and tucked her in at night. My wifes idea of watching our child is 
to put her in front of the tv to watch cartoons while she read a magazine.

My wife's family live 1/2 mile down the road from us and have already begun the
support system for her. They are fairly wealthy and she would have NO problem
with finances with them around. 

My wife did give me a lot of "companionship", a lot of love during our
marriage, but she did not "work" or contribute financially to our marriage.
This is part of the "bad" feelings I was experiencing with our marriage. With
40 hours of office work and another 20 hours of "HOUSEWORK" each week, I was
beginning to show signs of wear and tear. It was hard to swallow when I got
home after a hard days work and find the house in a mess. I ask my wife what
she did on that day, and the response was that she was very busy "shopping".
Well, what about the house? There just wasn't time to work on it. So I would
find myself up until 10:00 pm cleaning the house.

My friends are saying that I am headed for a "skinning". That is, my wife is
about to try to "take me for all I'm worth". My lawyer says that the best thing
for her is for her to get a JOB. 

What are your thoughts out there??? When I went through the list that I had
made and had to HUNT for my name next to items, it scared me. Is this what I
should be expecting as a NORMAL settlement in a divorce?? 

Any comments would be greatly appreciated!!! Is love causing me to be blind?

ken 

    re .25, "is love causing me to be blind?"
    
    Yes.  Tell your lawyer not to let you be exploited any more
    and then do what he or she tells you.
    
    		-John Bishop

    
    go to the library and pull out the listings and ratings of all of the 
    lawyers in your area. 
    If you lawyer is not rated A+, get another lawyer. 
    
    Sounds like she's (your wife) is really got a burr under her saddle
    for some reason.
    Have you asked her why she feels the need to take evrything from you?
    Is she punishing you for something?
    
    

    I don't think the main reason for taking everything is punishment, I
    think for the first time in her life she is dealing with the feelings
    of 'being on her own'. I think (purely my opinion) she is trying to "be
    on her own" as comfortably as possible. She stated once that I could
    always buy all that stuff again, I've got a good paying job, she on the
    other hand needs to find a job and has no idea how much money she will
    be making so see NEEDS all the household stuff.
    
    You know, she may be punishing me for years of UNEXPRESSED anger, I
    just don't know anymore......
    
    Ken

    
    re .28.
    
    You know....I think that if her only desire was to be "on her own"
    she would want to be more independant and 'make it on her own'.
    This doesn't sound to me like someone who is craving for
    independance. Sounds more like revenge to me. Sounds like she's
    awfully mad at you for something...or maybe she is just very
    very confused, and her friend keeps reminding her of all the
    terrible bad things you've ever done in your life and how you
    make lots of money and that she should be doing all of these things.
    
    I've also heard of cases where people in the process of getting a 
    divorce were on very friendly terms until they got lawyers.
    The lawyer then proceeds to fill one or the other one of them with
    ideas or horror stories, and before the whole thing is over and
    done with, the only one happy is the lawyer. 
    
    Maybe it's time for another heart to heart. Ask her why she feels
    that because she is unhappy, she has to put you through hardships
    and pain as well. ASK HER why she is trying to hurt you by these
    selfish demands. 
    
    Confused people are often easily influenced. She might  honestly
    believe that her demands are reasonable and that she deserves these
    things. Self pity often provides justification for selfishness as well.
    
    All you can do now is try and make her understand that you can work
    out something TOGETHER, and make sure you have tht A+ lawyer behind
    you just in case she is too far gone to listen.
    
    good luck.
    
    cathy

    I agree with the sentiments in .29.  When I wanted out of my marriage
    14 years ago, my husband wanted everything, and I let him have it, I
    just wanted peace of mind and to be away from him.  I struggled with a
    2 year old son for years.  My solicitor said I was mad but it was the
    way I wanted it, and I didn't regret it - until...... about 5 years
    after our divorce he remarried and I did have 'niggles of regret' when
    someone else walked into the home that I had worked hard for, with all
    'my' furniture around her.  
    
    Think carefully about your future, listen to what your lawyer tells
    you, don't be ripped off.  Yes, you must provide for her and your child
    but you have to live too.  I hope you can find happinness with her, but
    remember - life goes on and there is life after divorce - 14 years on
    and I have just remarried and have never been happier.
    
    take care,
    
    Brenda

    Re .25 and subsequent:
    
    It seems transparent to me that your wife has been exploiting you for
    years, with your complicity. If she doesn't do earn any income, you'll
    provide. If she doesn't do any housework, you'll pick up. If she spends
    no time with her child, you'll fill in. She's had it made: she can sit
    in front of the telly all day (pity she has so little imagination) and
    you'll provide house and home. Her taking everything is simply more of
    the same.
    
    Give up the "I still care for her" bull. You're divorcing her!!! Stand
    up for yourself, STRIVE to match her selfishness with your own, and BE
    REAL CAREFUL TO GET CUSTODY OF YOUR CHILD. If you're less than
    ruthless, you're just playing "victim" some more.
    
    Frankly, IMO, the best thing you can do for your wife is to treat her
    exactly as she treats you. Tit-for-tat is a pretty well-known basis for
    human interaction, nearly a restatement of the Golden Rule. If your
    divorce teaches her "If I mistreat people, I'll be mistreated" then
    she'll be much better prepared to get on in the world.
    
    - Hoyt

    
    
    re .31
    
    I can't say that I don't agree with your reasoning, but one thing that
    the basenoter HAS to deal with is that fact that in most states, if
    the wife asks for custody and all the money and his left foot,
    she'll get it. 
    If he goes out for blood, and she sees that it's OK to be a p**ck,
    then she WILL be, and he stands to really lose big time. 
    
    I would still try the 'conversation' approach and see if you can at
    least make her reasonable. 
    
    

    I just will never understand this....How can she feel any self worth
    taking everything YOU have worked so hard for over the years? I
    think you should walk out of a marriage with what you walked in
    with or acquired ON YOUR OWN during the marriage. I wish you the
    best of luck.....if you're getting divorced anyway, loving her or
    not, I would fight for what I believe to be fair (and in my eyes
    her demands are FAR FAR from fair).
    
    Kristin

    re.0 One thing, since she obviously has not expressed her anger
    towards you, would you be willing to create a 'safe' space
    for her to do so in? Maybe if you agreed to simply _listen_
    to any and all angry words she has, without comment, without
    rebuttal, without reaction. Just sit in a chair, and let her
    say anything without fear of reprisal. Can you do this? (You
    might want a third person, your counselor for instance, present
    to moderate.) Her unwillingness to express anger may stem from
    a feeling that her feelings are not _safe_ with you, that you
    will get angry with her in turn. Or worse, that you will gloss
    over the emotional context and 'go logical' on her again. It's
    very scary to hear the unedited, from-the-heart truth. But 
    it is equally important to have a safe place to express it,
    and someone who will _listen_. Someone once said that real
    friendship means being willing to say what your friend
    doesn't want to hear, and being willing to listen when your
    friend says it to you. 

    A really big thing happened since the last time I wrote in here. I did
    an inventory of all of our posessions and gave it to my lawyer. He
    asked a very key question: "When did you get all this stuff?" I
    answered "Before we were married". Did that ever cause a grin on his
    face. He asked me if I had ever heard of "NON-MARITIAL PROPERTIES".
    
    It seems that the stuff that you bring into a marriage very often can
    be taken out of the marriage by you. All my wife brought to this
    marriage was her clothes and a piano.
    
    When I asked my wife if she had heard of this, she went "PALE". Her
    lawyer had discussed it with her and she had full understanding of what
    it meant. She wasn't willing to discuss it any more, but she has been
    VERY polite to me ever since......
    
    This divorce stuff really isn't suppose to make any sense is it????
    
    Ken
    

It depends on what state you live in.  In Massachusetts, for example, your
wife would be entitled to anything, whether or not it had been brought in to
the marriage or was a "family heirloom".  In NH, though, that would not be
the case.

However, I think the concept of handing the wife a list of posessions and
saying "pick what you want" is like handing her a gun and saying "shoot me".

				Steve

    
    Ken, I'm sorry that I haven't had time to read all the replies, but
    I'm hearing from you that she does LOVE you, but is not IN LOVE with
    you.  There is such a feeling.  I've experienced such a feeling.  I 
    think she's feeling enough love for you to let you go so that you can
    find someone.  
    
    

    RE: -1
    I've come to the same conclusion. She moved out yesterday. It was very
    tough for both of us. I trusted her to be civil about what she took and
    went to work. When I got home last night, all was fine. She was gone,
    her clothes were gone, and some various small items. She called last
    night and told me everything that she took. All small stuff. The house
    really seems empty now. At the end of the phone conversation we said "I
    love you, and goodbye". Maybe its just habit after 6 years, but it
    still sounds like there is a lot of feeling in her voice. 
    
    BUT...
    
    When I really think about it, you hit it right on the head..
    
    She loves me but is no longer IN LOVE with me. To love someone as much
    as she does me and not be IN LOVE with me must really be a crazy
    feeling. I can't even imagine it....
    
    Thanks for the insight...
    
    Ken

    
    RE:  1165.36
    
    Steve, Did you say that in Massachusetts, one would be entitled to
    everything, whether or not it had been brought into the marriage
    or was a "family heirloom"?  
    
    thank you, Diane
    
    

Re: .39

That's what I said.

	Steve

    When I was divorced in Mass back in 1967, anything that I brought into
    the marriage was mine to take out. Laws change or maybe that fact that
    the marriage had lasted less than 60 days?

    When I was divorced in MA in 1989/1990 (it took awhile to reach 
    a settlement), I was advised by my lawyer that everything was up 
    for grabs.  I was told that while it was unlikely that a judge 
    would actually award things like the family heirlooms to my ex,
    that because we had been married more than five years, everything
    was considered to be jointly owned.

    Need more advice........
    
    Today I finally got served the summons for our divorce....
    
    My wife had signed it January 2nd 1991!!!!!
    
    This was before we even started to see the therapest...
    
    I've spent lots of money (around 1500 to date) on therapy to get our
    marriage back on track only to see that she had already decided to
    leave....
    
    My wife left last week to go live with a female friend of hers that is 
    also in the midst of a divorce...
    
    Also I was out of town last weekend, and when I got back ALL our
    financial statements are now missing from the house...
    
    She said that she was ONLY going to take some of her clothes to her new
    location....I believed her....
    
    Right now I am feeling A LOT of anger at TIME LOST...AT HER...
    
    I want to be a TRUSTING PERSON...but right now I feel sick in my
    stomach over what is happening...
    
    I've read many replies in here that say "watch out for yourself...don't
    trust her", but this was the woman that I was married to for 6 years.
    She is the mother of my child, we have shared so much....
    
    What's going on here...Why is she so mean???
    If she wanted the financials, I would have gladly made copies of
    everything for her...
    
    Am I stupid or what??
    
    I just don't understand any more...
    
    More comments/advice would be greatly appreciated..
    
    ken

    Ken,
    
    I have never been married but it sounds to me like you wife has now
    put her trust in someone else.  It could be her lawyer or a close
    friend.  She is not and has not been listening to you or your feelings
    for some time now.
    
    Also if she signed this in January, you money probably paid for your
    own divorce.  I have been reading this entry since the beginning and
    have read you hurt.  I hope everything turns out for the best.
    
    Bev
    

You are entitled to copies of all your financial statements.  Have your
lawyer demand them.

You should also consider filing for exclusive use of the home ASAP.  This
will allow you to legally bar her from entering the house while you are
not there.

I realize that it's extremely hard right now to look out for yourself, but
you have to do it now or you'll pay the price for many, many years.  This
doesn't mean turning into an SOB about it, but it does mean realizing that
even if you want to trust her, she hasn't trusted you for quite a while and
trust doesn't work on a one-way basis.

She has made it obvious that she has no intention of trying to reconcile.
You'll be less likely to end up hating her if you don't allow her to take
you to the cleaners.  And you be less likely to end up hating yourself if
you don't take her to the cleaners either.  This doesn't mean splitting
everything 50/50, but according to the individual's contribution.  It sounds
to me as though she is suffering from the common misconception that there
is no price to pay for walking away from a commitment of marriage.

Leslie

    re: .43 (Ken)
    
          Everyone can have something to say around this, so I won't say
    too much (other than that I can relate. ;-} )  But I will say that
    one thing that is clear in a relationship, whether on-going or
    ending, is that if one isn't in *action,* one may find him/herself
    in *reaction.*  You didn't act, so you allowed *her* to act, which
    then put you in a position of *reaction.*  The position of action
    is one of taking initiative, doing, forcing, taking a chance with
    hurting...definitely it has an impact.  The position of reaction,
    however, enables one to blame, hurt, martyr oneself, fight back
    (and therefore be punishing,) be righteously angry and afraid.
    "They did it to me, now I can..."   OR, you can admit to yourself
    that by willingly *not* taking action, you bear some responsibility
    for the actions taken upon you.  
         You see, if you aren't going forward, you're going backward.
    It is impossible to stand still.  If you aren't taking action, you
    will be "acted upon."  It doesn't pay to sit still, to await reaction,
    unless you have a willingness to accept whatever falls your way.
    You trusted.  You made yourself vulnerable by trusting.  Vulnerability
    has a major enticement...that in making oneself vulnerable one also
    allows him/herself the opportunity to really feel love.  Don't make
    yourself vulnerable and you don't feel love...that's the other side.
    The downside to vulnerability is that you can be hurt.  The trust has
    been broken, the vulnerability has been exposed, you are hurt.
         Well, as others have suggested, you can retaliate, go to war, or
    you can heal the wounds and start taking action of your own.  Don't
    allow yourself to be further victimized, close off the vulnerability,
    shut the love outside yourself off and look towards loving yourself,
    instead.  Don't play victim.  It's a lousy game (take it from me.  ;-})
    But don't start a vendetta, either.  For you need to recognize that
    as soon as you start action, you will have an impact.  Gather yourself
    into yourself, protect yourself, forgive yourself, and go forward.
    
    Frederick
    

    Ken,
    
    I have never been married, let alone divorce, so take what I say here 
    with a grain of salt...
    
    I know a few divorce cases where two otherwise perfectly kind and gentle 
    people being turned into vicious animals.  So my advice is don't escalate 
    lest you become one of them.  
    
    Eugene

It's me the basenoter...
    
It's been a while since I've been in here. Divorce is a ONE-WAY SLIDE and it's
downhill. Looking back over the years, I see so many good times, so much fun,
so much laughter (You know, the kind that is so hard that it brings tears to
your eyes!), so many good times...YET when we get together now, there's hurt,
depression, coldness, a real sense of uneasyness with each other. We don't know
what to say anymore. It's so very awkward.

As a last ditch effort, we tried to destroy our differences/problems by
directly attacking them. All that is left is a bloody mess of a relationship.
It turns my stomach to see where we are today. It was SO amazing how much
"fuel" was added to this fire by our respective families and friends. Everyone
seemed to have taken sides and helped push us towards distruction. They were
"OUR" friends "OUR" families. What a downer...

This is the part that I am having the hardest time coping with: I loved her,
love her and will always love her. I can't seem to make this feeling stop. There
is so much love inside of me that sometimes I am almost choking on it. Love
that cannot be expressed can be just as painful as any hurt. Just typing these
words is causing the tears to flow, the heart to hurt.  I've discovered
something very fundamental about myself and that is that ALOT of my selfworth
is wrapped up in what I can do for others. I love making others happy. I love
to share my special self with someone that I find special. 

To all of you that are following this note....I wish I could express through
this jibberish just how much you mean to me. I read and re-read your replies
and they help me through these down times. Some of you I will never meet other
than electronically. Some of you I carry in my heart already. Some of you have
helped heal the hurt. Some of you have help to guide me through all of this. To
all of you my warmest heartfelt love. 

These days are tough...I hope to be able to look back at these notes and
replies in the future and see how I have grown from all of this. I pray that I
do not grow bitter and cold from all of this. The worst would be for me to look
back at all of this and say "It didn't matter".

Many of your notes I wear like a warm blanket on a cold winter night. You
warmth is wonderful. My wife doesn't want my heart anymore so I give it to all
of you!!!! I hope it brings a little warmth to your day!!

Ken

    Change the locks. (Yeah, I know, the horse is allready out of the 
    barn, but, better late than never.)
    
    My sister had the same thing happen when her husband left. She came
    home and found that he had removed all the jewelry he had bought her,
    the TV, stereo, etc. Anything he could carry! Change the locks.
    
    dana

    
    re .48
    
    Having just gone through something that was almost exactly as your
    experiance, only with out the biterness, I know exactly what you mean.
    Sometimes we have to face the fact that if we really, truly love
    someone, and their happines is the most important thing to us, that
    they must be let go to find it. It doesn't mean you didn't provide it
    for a time, and from that you must take your best memories and save
    them. There will be hard times ahead, no doubt, but you can take pride
    in the fact that you gave this person the base on which the rest of her
    life can be built. Strength built through pain  can provide the
    foundations of our personalities that enable us to weather many storms.
    And in your own way, you have given her that strength. The time has no
    come for you to take what's left, and build your own foundation again.
    
    Peace,
    
    	Tony
    

re .50,

Hear hear!  Glad to know there are people out there having the strength
and character to go through this kind of devastating experience 
without bitterness.  I have seen/heard too many cases where the 
people involved not only lost the love and caring they had for each other, 
but lost themselves--love turned into resentment, then hurt, then hate, 
then bitterness.  Somewhere along the line came the divorce, and they
fought for everything from the alimony, the house and the cars to who got the
set of obscure books that had been sitting on the book shelf for ages
collecting dust.  Among all this bitter fighting for petty material
possession, they lost the precious memory of the love they used to share and 
cherish.

Isn't it strange that when such calamity strikes--when the foundation
is on the verge of collapse or is collapsing, some people turn their attention
to who gets which chair?  No, I guess it is not.  In fact I think it is
probably a very human thing to do.  But the exception proves the 
strength of the character.  

I have never been married, so I don't really know the depth of the hurt, and
I am not sure how I would react.  I guess it will probably depend on the 
circumstance.  It is tragic that a marriage is breaking up because love
is not enough, but it will be a tragedy if the love is then turned into
hatred as the result.  

Best wishes,

Eugene
                                                 

    
    .48
    
    Ken,
    
    I felt your pain this morning as I read your note.  Take heart, it will
    ease with time.
    
    14 years ago when my marriage ended, I still loved my husband, but I
    realised that my love was not enough to sustain the marriage, it took
    18 months to 'heal' the wounds - then life got better.  My ex
    re-married and divorced again, then asked me to go back, I was tempted,
    but I realised it would never work.  Now I have found happinness again,
    but I have remembered the lessons learned along the way and won't make
    the same mistakes again.
    
    You have lots of love to give Ken, and I'm sure you will emerge from
    this situation a stronger person, but NOT a harder person.  Bitterness
    is a wasted emotion, look forward, life will get better and I'm sure
    you will love again.
    
    take care,
    
    Brenda

    
    	I'm sorry to hear about the direction things are heading for
    you.
    
>I've discovered
>something very fundamental about myself and that is that ALOT of my selfworth
>is wrapped up in what I can do for others. I love making others happy. I love
>to share my special self with someone that I find special. 

	Well, you sure sound like a "nice" guy. I mean, how could anyone
    have anything bad to say about someone who loves making others happy?
    A guy who loves to "share his special self with someone that he finds
    special" sounds like every girl's dream! (Also sounds like it's right
    out of the "personal's" notesfile...) 
    
    	What gives then?
    
    	Part of it (I think) is the "deal" you struck with her which took 
    the form of "you let me make you happy, and I'll feel worthwhile ALOT".
    This deal with her worked for X years, then fell apart for a reason.
    She's changed her mind about it; doesnt want to be in this "contract"
    with you anymore. And it's a subconscious contract, in that neither
    of you were likely even aware of it's existance.
    
    	The reason, I think, for it falling apart is because being in
    such a deal or having such a "contract" with another person is 
    extremely difficult to fullfill. It's simply too much of a burden
    for her to "let you make her happy". It's a tremendous responsibility
    on her part to *be happy*, at your making. Because you'd fail at
    it, often. Or, by now, you've failed at it enough that she couldnt
    *stand* it anymore! 
    
    	Not your "performance level" in making her happy or that you
    failed; she couldnt stand seeing what would happen *to you* when
    you failed her. Like you said, ALOT of your self esteem - essentially
    how you feel about yourself - was dependant on your success rate
    in making her happy. Sort of, when you failed her, you also failed
    *you*. Now you have two people unhappy, her still emotionally upset 
    over whatever it was originally, you now emotionally upset over the 
    fact that you tried everything in the book and nothing's worked.

    	Because, nothing will ever always work.
    
    	The contract essentially says that she cant feel how she feels,
    because she's "bound" by it to respond with a change in feeling at 
    your "making". The fact is, no one could possibly live up to such
    a deal with another person. Because no other person can trully change
    how you feel - the best they can do is distract you from it for
    a time. So you now have a dilemma - an agreement that's impossible
    to fulfill.
    
    	I now believe that perhaps her actions are simply to break this
    contract with you - by breaking the other contract - and to set
    her free of having to see what happens to you, when she doesnt "get
    happy" at your making. When her feelings dont change in response
    to your business problem solving approach. In this scenario, she
    can still love you and yet be very angry with you over what it does
    to her.
    
    	I run into this same problem myself from time to time, which is 
    why I know this very_little_bit about it. I hope this helps you somehow.
    
    	Joe

    Joe,
    	Wow...You hit it right on the head....
    
    I tried to make her happy, she got sad, so I would try harder, she got
    sadder.... Now I understand why...
    
    Thank you for helping me to understand something about myself and to
    grow....
    
    Ken

    Finding answers in the strangest places.....
    
    Last night I was watching "China Beach" (yea, I think McMurphy is cute
    as a button!). This show dealt with McMurphy meeting Dodger and how
    they got along...Was it ever a parallel to my situation. She loved him
    with all of her heart, he loved her with all of his heart. In the end
    she had to leave. He had found peace, he had found "HIS" answers. She
    tried to use his answers as hers and it just didn't work. She had to
    leave in the end to find "her answers to her problems". She couldn't
    live with his answers, they didn't fit "HER" questions to life.
    
    Maybe you had to see the show to get the full impact, but what a
    strange place to get an answer.
    
    ken

    I hope to be able to continue to gather much information/education from
    this notefiles but there is some chance that next week (July 8th) I
    might be "transitioned" from this company. It's time for our office to
    do some trimming back and this divorce has interfered with my work.
    
    If you don't hear from me after next Monday...It was nice of all of you
    to help me along my way in this time of need. Who knows, being on the
    streets looking for a job might help take my mind off of the divorce.
    
    Ken