Conference quark::human_relations-v1

    One of the most important things in a relationship (in my opinion)
    is honest communication.  It sounds to me like you've got yourself
    too freaked out to communicate openly about your fears.  If you're
    both able too, I heartily recommend couple's counseling.  It's 
    worked for lots of people.  EAP can help recommend someone.
    
    Karen.

    
    Wow.
    
    Per usual, I am short on answers. But I do have an observation...two,
    actually.
    
    First. You sound scared. It doesn't matter _what_ you are scared about,
    it just matters that you are scared. And when I am scared, I can't
    think straight; the boogey man hides in every closet and the Ban Sidhe
    wails on every wall. When I let myself _stay_ scared, I make dreadful
    decisions based on the nightmares of my fear...not on fact. 
    
    Second. He sounds [from your account...bravo for trying so valiently to
    be fair to his point of view] scared. In my limited experience, men
    have much the same reactions to being scared as women. They may portray
    them somewhat differently, society being what it is, but it still
    results in abominable decisions and regretted words and actions.
    
    Is it totally unbelievable that the intensity of the initial reaction
    to a declaration of love should result in fear of that very reaction? I
    think not. I think there is reason to suspect that given a bit of room
    and understanding...[minus the constant need of reassurance...caged
    birds always want to fly; free ones stay of their own free will]...
    things will work out surprisingly positively.
    
    Two last things...[and then I _will_ shut up...for someone with no
    answers, I certainly managed to carry on, didn't I?]
    
    When I am scared...and someone keeps pushing me for an answer...even if
    that someone loves me and I know it...but they just won't leave me be
    to work it out...even if I love them too...my answer is _always_ NO.
    It has something to do with respect for someone's space. A fascinating
    book eas written on it called "The Territorial Imperative". I reccomend
    it.
    
    Finally, I agree with -1. Get some professional help.
    
    Regards,
    
    Melinda

    I feel a few insecurities here... that might stand in the way
    of a nice loving future...  true love, genuine love, does not entail
    deadlines or pressures... relax, enjoy what you have, let him breathe,
    if your love is as good as you represent it, you don't have much to
    fear, enjoy being in love, enjoy his company, and love him, love is to
    "give" much more than to "take", love itself should be more than
    sufficient to feel on top of the world...
    
    I cannot talk from other's experiences but my own, I was in love quite
    young and never worried or put any kind of pressure to force the future
    on us... and as it came out of its own, we did get engaged 2 years
    after we met, when we were QUITE sure that it was the only way to go,
    got married within a year or our engagement and have been married for
    quite a number of years, we had 3 great kids who developed into great
    adults, responsible and caring...(and who love their parents to death)
    and now they have their careers and their lives, but still come home to
    us whenever there is a chance, and us? we are still as fond of each
    other as when we started dating... we've had our ups and downs but that
    has never been any "threat" to our being together, we've always been
    ready to deal with whatever life brings, good, or bad, but always
    together, up to now, 27 years after our wedding have not found any
    problem big enough to take us apart (and we have had many changes, have
    lived in many different countries, with different cultures, climates,
    customs... you name it, we've been through, but together, not alone)
    
    Is it worth for you to wait? I would think so, but you are the ONE to
    decide and see.  As I tried to express in my parragraphs above, I never
    doubted the future, I was always ready to handle "whatever" it came my
    way... If you start with possitive thinking instead of negative ones
    that could help, I'm sure... age is no obstacle, we fall in love "when
    it comes" not when we decide we have the best age for that... love is
    not conditioned, believe me, it comes when you least expect it! It
    seems you are in love... follow your heart! at least, that is what 
    I would have done if I were in your shoes and what I did when love
    came my way... I grabed it! 
    (I never had any doubts and never minded where or how, was going to 
    live, I just wanted to be together and could affront anything, and as 
    it came out, life treated us very well and have no regrets)
    
    I wish you the best luck but don't have much advise to offer to you... 
    you have to find out what exactly do you want out of this? if he loves 
    you, he'll marry you! when? when he is ready, when he sees that THAT is 
    the only thing he wants and will make him happy! Don't rush him if he 
    is not ready...
    A hugh, Ana
    

    I agree with other noters that the prolonged intensity (on both sides)
    of your relationship in the beginning seems like a good sign that it
    will (or could) keep going strong.  My hunch is that Jeff (and
    therefore the relationship) is in the ebb phase of a cycle--he's just
    regrouping.  And I'd be willing to bet that with the recent spate of
    marriages/engagements in his family, he probably feels "they're
    dropping like flies!" and he might be somewhat alarmed that he's being
    caught up in it without due deliberation.
    
    I really don't think *counseling* is in order here!  I would think that
    proposition would alarm him even more, for crying out loud.  I know the
    suggestion was well meant, but it seems to me like it would be going
    after a mosquito with an elephant gun.  Though it would be difficult to
    squelch my anxieties, I'd try to give him "space"... for x amount of
    time.
    
    Leslie

    Thanks so much for the replies to date.  They've helped a lot; just
    writing the original note helped more than I could have believed at the
    time.
    
    If I were 10 years younger, I know I wouldn't be feeling half of the
    "scaredness" that is apparent (because it is).  You read about these
    feelings when you're a younger woman, and by golly, its true - I
    sometimes feel like life is passing me by - as crazy as it sounds. 
    There's so much I still want to do - and getting married again, having
    a child is one of them.
    
    But I just keep reminding myself that its only too late if I NEVER do
    these things, not WHEN I do them.
    
    And so, I'm, for the most part, feeling much more a peace lately.  And
    very much of the feeling (God love my mother for this) that what is
    meant to be will happen; and if it doesn't happen, its for a reason -
    because something even 'better' is just around the corner.
    
    Please keep your thoughts coming; its so great the way people can reach
    out and help you even if they know no more about you than what you've
    written.
    
    Martha

    
    Martha,
    
    We must have the same Mother. She's always telling me "what will be,
    will be"
    
    I think it's good advice.
    
    bonnie

    
    
    Hi Martha;
    
    This is my first note in this conference. I just wanted to offer a
    little support and understanding.  I really know what you're going
    through, I've been there...sort of.
    
    I'm almost 24 and my fiance is 31.  We've been together for 9 years. 
    He was my first true love. I was his second long lasting serious
    relationship.  We just got engaged in April and we are getting married
    in October.  It was alot of work to get to this point.
    
    I was the one pressuring John to get married.  I was the one that was
    ready.  He wasn't really sure if it would change things.  I assured him
    that it wouldn't.  I went to counselling on my own for 3 years to try
    to work on my end of the relationship.  I, personnaly, could never go
    to couples therapy.  I know he couldn't or *WOULDN'T* either.  Therapy
    helped me to try to understand where he was coming from, and what my
    actions were doing to provoke his actions or thoughts.
    
    We've only been engaged 1 month.  We started looking at a house and are
    scheduled to close on it at the end of the month.  Our relationship has
    definately taken a turn.  Sometimes it seems as though it's for the
    worse.  We are spending alot of time stressed to the max about finances
    and the house and the wedding and other people involved.  We are trying
    to pull together through all of this, but if he does something that
    aggrevates me, I feel like we are pulling apart.  I am trying to have
    faith that our relationship will get through this.  We have alot going
    on, and we've been through so much in the 9 years we've been together.
    Certainly we've been through much more trying times than these.  I know
    we can make it...but I'm still scared.  I wonder (sometimes) when we
    fight if it really is worth it... maybe I moved to fast.  Maybe I
    jumped the gun to quickly.  I know in my heart that I didn't, but I
    also know in my head that marriage is permanant.  Divorce is not in
    either of our vocabularies.  It's just very scary.
    
    My bet is that your SO is just very scared.  My suggestion to you is
    not couples therapy.  My suggestion is that you go to therapy on your
    own.  You need to deal with the "un-known" in your relationship.  Maybe
    you can find out which parts of your actions provoke fear in Jeff,
    without him being there. Maybe you need to spend a little bit of time
    apart.  I'm not saying that you should temporarily take a hiatus, but
    maybe you could take a couple nights off a week if you're not doing
    that already. Maybe you need to find some interests of your own if you
    don't have any already and he does too. I don't know what else to say.  
    
    I just know that I'm scared too.  I know in my heart that it will all work 
    out for me, and I truly hope it works out for you too.
    
    If you want to talk off line, feel free to send me mail.  Maybe I can't
    help, but I'd be happy to listen.
    
    Donna

    Martha,
    
    Just a note to give support and maybe some understanding.  I've
    recently (six month ago) met someone who, for the first time in my life
    (and I'm 32) feels like someone I want to spend my life with.  It's
    felt like a very long wait for me and I don't have a lot of patience.
    
    Luckily, things are going pretty well and we both talk about living
    together, getting a house, etc.  It's still early in the relationship,
    so I'm not overly anxious currently.  However, a month or two ago I was
    feeling very insecure about the relationship.  I thought he was pulling
    back and I was insecure about being insecure!  I mean I was afraid if
    he found out I was insecure he'd think I was clingy and demanding and
    maybe get scared away from me by my insecurities. 
    
    Based on some therapy I went through recently, I know I need to express
    my feelings and not discount them.   So I got the courage to confess my
    fears to him and it turns out he had a lot of the same fears.  I've had
    many interactions with him that have turned out this way, where I've
    been able to communicate my fears and listen to his and get everything
    out in the open.  This has been quite a revelation to me!  And it has
    strengthened the relationship.  I think sometimes in the past when I've
    just sat on my fears they've just gotten worse, whereas bringing them
    out and talking them through has really made me feel stronger and more
    more at peace with the relationship.  And then something else comes up
    and I have to tackle the next fear (or same one resurfacing) and let
    that one go.
    
    I brought this up, I guess, in response to hearing people say, "just
    relax and let things go."  I've tried this in the past and, for me,
    it's just invalidated my *real* feelings of fear.  Confronting the fear
    and getting it out and validating it has, conversely, let it go!
    
    Anyways, good luck.  Let us know how it goes.
    
    
    Still Working On It

Martha,

I'd like to concentrate on a different aspect of your situation than have
most of the other notes.  I have some experiences along this line, so please
don't be upset if I appear to be "stepping on toes".

You say that for the first six months of your relationship, he was far away,
and that the first ILY was three-months in.  This means you were still in
the "long-distance relationship" mode when you said your ILY.  This is a
red flag.

In my experience with long-distance relationships (those which start out
that way, not long-established relationships which must later endure a
period of separation), there has been a strong tendency to rapidly
accelerate the relationship, with the couple each making "promises" to
each other (such as statements of love) which really have little foundation,
in the attempt to counter the distance.  What often ends up happening is that
you really aren't in love with the other person, but rather with your own
idealized notion of what your fantasy partner would be like.  No wonder he
seems "the one"!  You visit, but it's not the same as being together on
a regular basis - you often treat it as a vacation, and suppress or ignore
things which would bother you if you were exposed to them on a daily basis.

But most important, and here is what I think is relevant to your situation,
you find yourself letting your defenses down and pledging undying love, because
you unconsciously feel safe due to the distance.  And everything is fine and
wonderful and picturebook-rosy until....

... until the time comes for you to make good on your promises and move
together.  (Not "move in together", but to be near each other.)  Now one or
both of you may suddenly realize that you may have made promises you can't
keep, and the fear begins.  You keep the fear hidden for a while, and let
things go on, until you're faced with the C-word - commitment.  This 
commitment may come in several forms, but marriage is the most common.  This
is when the fear can't be hidden any more, and there's no longer a path
of retreat.  The barriers start rising and you suddenly find yourself
shut out, wondering what happened.  Everything was fine just a few days ago,
wasn't it?

Well, no, it wasn't.  If you two followed this scenario, you were really
just "in love with your own fantasy", and you never gave the relationship
a solid basis.  He may very much have meant it when he said he loved you,
but the love wasn't "real".  

I've seen many stories like yours.  I've lived them myself more than once
(no, we don't always learn from our mistakes).  And it doesn't mean your
relationship is doomed.  Indeed, you have a good opportunity to make it
work, but the route to take is to back off, and, for a while, pretend that
you didn't make those promises.  It's hard, and it may not work, but you've
got a lot invested in this relationship and it would be a shame to throw
it away.

I think what I'd suggest is to tell Jeff that you realize that he's not ready
yet for further commitment, and that he should tell you when he is ready,
and you won't bring it up again.  Now this opens up the possibility of him
just leaving things as they are forever.  If you're not comfortable with that,
then say so.

It's very obvious that you "want to be married so bad your teeth ache."  Jeff
knows it.  Maybe that scares him.  Maybe he isn't sure you don't view him
more as a "sperm donor" than a lifetime partner.  I think you two have a lot
going for you, and it may just take a little realignment of expectations to
make the both of you happy.  I wish you all the best.

					Steve

    re .7,
    
    Wow, seriously involved with someone at 14 (well, almost 15) and
    for the last 9 years.  Donna, I think you are a unique individual
    who defies the societal norm.  Anyway, good luck.
    
    Eugene

    Martha,
    	First of all my heart goes out to you. 
    
    	I hope this doesn't sound stupid, it has worked for me!!
    
    	Think of your heart as "leather"; the more it gets pounded the
    	softer it gets!!!! Leave it alone and it gets stiff and
    	in-flexable!
    
    	Also when the going is good/great love flourishs in even the
    smallest relationships. It's when the going gets rough that true love
    comes out. Think about this long and hard, "When things get tough, do
    you pull together or draw apart?"
    
    	Everyone has a book to recommend, well I have one too! The book is
    "You just don't Understand" by Tannen. The premise of this book is that
    there are social-lingual differences in our communication styles
    between men and women and that this causes many of the difficulties in
    our communication. I'm in the process of reading the book now and it is
    helping my life alot. It's on the #1 reading list of a lot of book
    clubs. Somewhat easy reading, educational, helps make the heart not
    hurt so much, helps you feel like you are "DOING SOMETHING" to help the
    relationship.
    
    Two cents here, two cents there, soon you will have a fortune of
    information!!!!!
    
    My two cents worth....
    
    Ken Veale

re. -1    WONDERFUL Ken!  I loved your positiveness, especially about the
	leather...great.

	thank you for entering it.

	Mikki

    Martha, not sure if you are still reading this note, but here are my
    2 cents...
    
    I was in a 4-year relationship that I thought would conclude in
    marriage. By the 2.5 year mark we started having problems and I changed
    my mind every couple of months.  We openly talked about all the
    problems we would have to deal with, and yet we hung in there for an
    additional 1.5 years.  I am not the type of person to just sit back and
    wait, and I suspect some of your anxiety is a result of this.  You have
    opened up your soul and heart (letters, long talks) to someone you care
    for very deeply, but are not getting the same kind of response you are
    hoping for.
    
    I have found most men I have dated *who are NOT READY for marriage* to
    suddenly back off and start making excuses for everything (getting
    together, meeting family and friends at functions, vacationing
    together).  And in turn, I'd get very impatient and initiate a break
    up. I am now in contact with a man who is READY for marriage and his
    outlook is exactly like mine.  The longer your SO puts you off or drags
    this out, you will only feel more insecure and edgy.  This topic will
    *always* be in the back of your mind no matter how much you try to
    suppress it.
    
    Perhaps some time apart would help (absence makes the heart grow
    fonder), you don't have to break up, but just not see each other as
    much and maybe you'll both realize how much you care for each other.