Conference quark::human_relations-v1

    Is it possible for you to get her a small apartment within walking
    distance?  If you can handle the extra money, that would give her
    an available parent, but get her out of your wife's hair.
    
    It sounds very uncomfortable.
    
    		-John Bishop

    Is counseling an option, a bit for family members separately and then
    some together.
    
    Sometimes that can bring up all the hidden stuff that maybe going on,
    or offer new insights into the stuff that's not-so-hidden and may be
    wreaking havoc on your situation.  You don't really go into what the
    problems are specifically, but they sound pretty serious.
    
    -jody
    

      
    
      RE: .0   First of all, aren't you appalled by the fact YOU even
               think you should put your daughter....your flesh and 
               blood in a foster home or whatever?   I think you should
               sit your wife down and have a talk with her and tell her
               to grow up.   Is she trying to compete for your attention?
               If so,  sounds like she's insecure or jealous.   Does your
              daughter do things to upset your wife?  Talk to your daughter
               and tell her what you will tolerate and tell her to grow
               up also.   I have a perfect step-mother and I had to live
               my father for a little while along with 2 brothers and
               another sister who was a problem.   My father put his foot
               down and now that she's older, her and my step-mother get
               along great.   I really do have an exceptional step-mother,
               I only hope if I'm ever in that situation I'll be half that
               exceptional.  ;-)  
    
               Melinda
    

    My husband was in a similar situation as your daughter, except he was
    only 11 or 12 at the time.  His mother didn't want him, so he lived
    with his father and step-mother for a while until the step-mother gave
    the father a choice, and my husband was put into foster care where he
    remained through college til he was on his own.  However, his father
    and step-mother, who were blaming some of their marital problems on
    Mark, ended up divorced anyhow, and my husband has never been close to
    either of his parents since then (he's 34 now).  I'd think long and
    hard if I were you before I chose to put my daughter in foster care
    just to remove the problem  from the house.  I  don't believe that the
    problem will go away, only that it will become a different problem.
    
    I think the counseling sounds like a good idea.  I also second the idea
    about putting your foot down and saying what is and isn't acceptable
    behavior, and then sticking to it.  I know that when my nephew lived
    with me one summer (he was about 20) because he had a summer job up
    here, I had a lot more rules than he was used to at home, but since I
    laid them all out up front and was consistent and didn't put up with
    him breaking them, he learned to adjust.  And it's interesting to note
    that, here we are a few years later, and he still abides by my rules
    when he's dealing with me yet he wouldn't think of treating his own
    parents the same way because they never demanded it.  And we're talking
    simple courtesy things here like call when you're going to be late!
    
    I wish you well as you try to deal with this problem, but please think
    about what you're doing carefully before you do anything drastic like
    foster care or a group home.  I've had to work through a lot of
    problems with my husband due to the insecurities he picked up living in
    foster care, and I know that his parents still wonder why they don't
    have a relationship with him, but they still really don't want him, and
    it shows.  And I don't know how many children you have, but my husband
    is the only one that no one wanted out of 6 children (I think because he 
    was the second oldest and therefore already at a more rebellious stage 
    when his parents got divorced), and I know he feels the pinch from
    being singled out like that.
    
    And how much of your daughter's behavior can be chalked up to being
    standard for a 16-year-old?  I know that was about when I started to
    want more independence, and I had a fairly strict upbringing and was a
    fairly well-behaved teen-ager.
    
    I don't think there are any easy answers to this.  I wish you well in
    deciding on which course you will take.
    
    Cathy
      

    
    This may sound harsh, but here goes.  Your daughter should be the
    most important person in this situation.  To a point, I can understand
    your wife being upset, but to suggest you put your daughter into
    foster care???!!!!  Clearly your wife refuses to accept the fact that
    this is your daughter who despite her age is still a child.  It would
    be inhumane to put her into foster care at this stage of the game.
    She needs as much of your love and support that she can get.  
    
    
    IMO your daughter should come first.  No ifs ands or buts about it.
    Your wife is an adult and does not need you to be her parent, whereas
    your daughter most definately does.  Tough choice to make.  All I
    can say is follow your heart.
    
    Michele

    I agree with some of the earlier notes - foster care would be yet
    one more blow for your daughter to suffer, and it will not necessarily
    save your second marriage, either.
    
    Since you didn't mention any particular problems between your wife
    and daughter, it is hard to make further suggestions.  Talk with
    your wife and find out what specific things she is not happy with.
    Then talk with your daughter to find out what specific things she
    is not happy with.  But DON'T try to be a go-between and solve the
    problems yourself.  Being a mediator never works longterm (IMO).
    
    Once there is a group of specific things from each, and it wouldn't
    hurt to have a list of your own, too, try a sitdown meeting with
    all three of you.  If some of the base issues can be discussed openly 
    and in full, maybe some "house rules" can be created for all to live
    in a more compatible way.  If everyone knows the rules and also knows
    their needs are being met, it should ease the pressure and tension.
    This might not be a once and for all type of solution, and rules 
    might have to be realigned if they are not working (at another three
    way meeting).  
    
    If this is impossible, maybe an impartial councellor will have to be
    used as a mediator.  Remember, EPA offers 6 (I think) free councelling
    sessions per year.  Maybe this is the time to give them a call.
    
    Good luck,
    
    Chris
                                             

There are four people involved in this: The husband, his ex wife, his
present wife and his daughter. The feelings of his ex and present wife are
not well described. Let me suggest his ex wife may have suggested this to
discomfort his present wife. A previous reply aptly described how the presence
of his daughter may add to existing stresses in his present marriage. If 
all were well here I doubt the daughter would be as much of a problem.

I think the problem is a lot more complex than his wife simply not wanting 
to raise his daughter. I reccomend counseling for all concerned except his ex.

    
    I have several different opinions.  First of all, I firmly believe that
    alot of children today are spoiled rotten because they realize/think
    that they are more important to their parents than their parents are
    to each other.  You and your wife should be a united front to/with
    your daughter.  She should not know, if possible that your wife
    disagrees with her presense.  That will only furthur charge the
    situation.  Addressing your daughter from a position of strength,
    (I love my wife and I am not willing to give her up), will give you
    better barganing ability.  You married your wife forever, you pooled
    genes with your ex wife and had a child.  That child you do owe
    something to, but I think that child, whose personality is
    created by chance of a gene pool, should be LESS important possibly
    than the woman you've chosen to spend your life with.
    
    On the other hand,  we don't have much information here.  Perhaps
    you've changed your mind about your wife.  Perhaps she's a coniving,
    jealous person and your daughter is innocent.  That's a different
    situation.  
    
    On the other hand,  if your daughter is murderous or physically
    dangerous to your wife, (or visa versa) then the violent one has to
    go.
    
    My point here is that only you can judge, based on your situation,
    who needs to give.  I don't think anyone should assume that your wife
    is in the wrong.  My parents adopted a child from Equador when he was
    6.  That child created horrible probelms in the family.  He attempted
    to murder and rape my brother.  He was violent with my mother.  Still
    my father would not get rid of him.  (Of course, my mother could have
    acted also, but that's not how their marriage was defined.)  Dad
    finally send Nick back when he forged Dad's name on a Cub-Scouts
    badge.  This is an example of messed up priorities.  (Nick is now
    in a correctional institution for violent teens.  He was adopted by
    another family who ended up divorced after 25 years of marriage.)
    
    
    Another assumption that I would like to address, is that the fault
    lies with your daughter or wife.  Is it possible that you ignore
    your wife now that you have a daughter?  Is it possible that you
    will not actively sleep with your wife, for fear of waking up your
    child?  I think you need to sit and talk with/listen to your wife.
    She probably has a very clear picture of the situation or a least
    a different picture.
    
    I also think counselling is a great idea.  Church is also a good idea.
    A little religion never hurt anyone.
    
    Rachael
    

    Re .-1
    
    You seem to be minimizing the responsibility a parent has to a child.
    Personally I think a parent has a greater responsibility to their child
    than to their spouse. The way I look at it is; you bring a child into
    this world, you look after and care for that child, at least until that
    child is a legal adult. None of this gene pooling crap to absolve
    yourself of responsibility.
    
    Yes I know the situation in .0 is a little more complicated given that
    the parents are separated. 
    
    Dave

	no experince with this type of situation, but.....


	what about the ex wife's responsibilities?

	everyone is suggesting that the father, current wife, and daughter
	need to work up "house rules" etc....

	I know I don't know all the details as to how/why the daughter was
	kicked out of her but mother's house, but if the daughter was living 
	there, shouldn't one course of action be to have the daughter and 
	mother (ex wife) try to work out their differences?

	this is just an hypopthesis, but if the daughter didn't have the 
	father to turn to, would the mother have thrown the daughter out of 
	the house?  I could see that the current wife possibly views the ex 
	as unfairly dumping her problems on her husband and herself...is this
	possible?

	at any rate....good luck

	barb

    re: .8 (Rachael)
    
         This is a nit, please note.
         To your last line, "a little religion never hurt anyone."
    I totally disagree with that.  I find that religion has done
    more harm than any single other influence on the planet.
    
    Frederick
    

    Are there any other relatives who might be willing to have your
    daughter live with them.  Sounds to me like there is so much history
    behind your situation that emotions are running high.  I believe it's
    the emotional turmoil we all have lying in us that creates the problems
    we attempt to so logically deal with.  Unfortunately logic often fails
    to address emotional problems.  Counseling is in order for that.
    
    Perhaps there's a grandparent, an aunt or uncle, a cousin that might
    welcome your daughter for a time?  Sometimes living with a comparative
    stranger such as this is just the situation for kids with problems,
    they tend to respect others rules and opinions far more than their own
    parents, for whom they may have only contempt (for whatever reason true
    or false) and for whom they can only feel anger.
    
    My younger brother had (still has in fact) a good friend during his
    teenage years who absolutely could not get along with his parents. 
    This friend finally ran away from home, was living in his car for
    awhile I believe.  These parents were "fine upstanding middle class"
    people and were at their wits end what to do.  My brother talked to my
    parents, and this boy came to live with them.  He lived there for a bit
    over a year I think, graduated high school, and got a job and finally
    moved out.  But the rules of the house were laid out and he respected
    them because he wanted to live there.  He eventually reestablished
    contact with his parents, and today is actually in business with his
    father.
    
    Some kids have rocky teenage years for sure.  And some people are
    simply not good at parenting during those years.  I also know
    personally of a marriage that was ruined by a son moving in with his
    non-custodial father.  The boy stole money, had parties, did not
    respect property, would not work, and the list goes on.  It is not
    always the "new" spouse's fault.  But I DO think a parent has more
    obligation to a child than a spouse if a choice is to be made. 
    Sometimes that means kicking the child out, to find out the world is
    not always a kind place, and you must live by certain rules.
    

    I've already offered my observations to the base noter in another
    conference, but something Linda said in .13 pushed one of my hot
    buttons.  This is not to say that Linda hasn't suffered at the hands of
    her husband's first wife or that that suffering is justified, nor do I
    disagree with her when she says
    
    > Second wives take a lot of heat and a lot of the problems come from
    > the first wife, and were, in my opinion, factors of the first divorce.
    
    Nevertheless,
    
    > The second wife married the gentleman under the apparent scenario
    > of him and her...and then suddenly has a nearly adult child forced 
    > on her....  
    
    Let's face reality, folks, whether we like it or not.
    
    Anyone who marries a previously married person who has children by the
    earlier marriage MUST face the possibility that those children might
    someday have to live with the new family unit.  Custodial parents die
    or become incapacitated or any number of other possibilities,
    leaving the non-custodial parent as the sole provider.  Children go
    through traumas of one kind or another that make a change of scene
    necessary (such as this case).  Whatever the reasons, there's ALWAYS a
    possibility that a non-custodial parent might some day become the
    custodial parent.  This is a reality that is better faced and discussed
    and acknowledged BEFORE the second (or third or ....) marriage.
    
    If the love of your life has children from a former marriage, you can
    bet your tush you're going to become involved in those children's lives
    to some degree, and not always in a way that suits your plans.  To 
    believe otherwise is naive.
    
    > I feel the root of the problem here is the first wife and the second
    > wife and child are the pawns.
    
    I feel the root of the problem here is the second marriage and what
    wasn't discussed and agreed to before the I do's were said.  The second
    wife is a party to that, and the child is the pawn.
    
    Without even getting into whether the birth mother bears any additional
    responsibility here, I still agree with the noter who said the second 
    wife needs to grow up.
    
    Karen
                            

    
    RE:14
         I think that was well said. Not enough couples deal with the
    what ifs ????....before the I dos.
    
    J

    re: .16 (becca)
    
          Religions have been devised as a means to put "God" in a box.
    Spirituality is unique and individualized.  Attempting to make
    all people conform to someone's or something's standardized 
    interpretation of what "God" is is inherently flawed and short-
    sighted.  Virtually all religions, past and present, work hard
    to "convert" the remainder of the world to their point of view.
    So there are then two problems:  the first, that religion is
    defective in the first place; the second, that domination or 
    manipulation are the means utilized to both maintain control
    within the group of followers AND also to attempt to bring others
    outside that group within the "flock."  It is this manipulation,
    control, domination, by means of fear, punishment, righteousness,
    blame, guilt, etc. that is the most destructive thing that occurs
    in society.  That religions feel compelled to do so in order to 
    ensure their survival, is shameful, in my view.  There is not
    one single established religion that can be named that does not
    do most, if not all, of the above.  We live our lives under the
    massive influences of these various dogmas.  And we often fight
    over the beliefs within those dogmas.  And whether the struggle
    is with others (person to person) or within (ourself,) there is
    no escaping the battles as long as those criteria are held in 
    place.
    
    Frederick
    

Please - let's leave the arguing about religion to another note.  Feel
free to start one if you wish, though I fear that it is another topic for
which the battle can go on without end.

			Steve

    well, sh*t.  I just finished typing a reply to each of the replies and
    when I went to submit it, lost the whole thing because the "network
    partner aborted logical link".  
    
    Basically here it is in short;
    
    Jenni is a good kid.  Her mother is a Ph.D. psychologist who may be
    nuttier than her patients.  Jenni tries hard to be helpful and
    cooperative.  She is also a teenager and most of us need no more
    explanation.  I love her and would not even give serious consideration
    to being sent away.  I never downplayed the importance of my children
    to me and even predicted that this would eventually occur (about the
    time Jenni turned 16).  I love my wife, but, she cannot see past her
    own need to have life EXACTLY the way she wants it, and I cannot
    accomodate that desire which is why this marriage is going down the
    tubes (and I will be glad just to see the pain levels go down).
    
    Thanks for your support and the chance to talk about this.
    Hugs to  all
    jimc
    

    
    
    > well, sh*t.  I just finished typing a reply to each of the replies
    >and when I went to submit it, lost the whole thing because the "network
    >partner aborted logical link".
    
    
    No you didn't (you just think you lost it).  
    
    When this happens, immediately open ANY conference (preferably open the
    one that you just got thrown out of, but that doesn't always work).
    
    Type REPLY/LAST.  It will bring up the contents of your LAST buffer,
    which should be what you just typed in.  Save the contents of that to a
    file (ideally you should be using an editor that you understand and you
    should know the command to save the file).  When you get back to the
    conference where you wanted to enter it, just use that file as your
    reply.
    
    
    All is NOT lost when a NOTESfile bumps you out.  But, the second you
    exit NOTES completely, you'll never get it back.
    
    kath
    
    

    re: .22
    
    There's no need to open another conference to write the contents
    of the NOTES$EDIT buffer.  The example below assumes one is using
    the character cell VAX Notes interface with the EVE editor on a terminal
    with a LKxxx keyboard (i.e., not a hardcopy, VT52, or VT1xx) or a
    workstation:
    
    	Notes> EVE BUFFER NOTES$EDIT
    	(in EVE)
    	<DO>WRITE filename
    	<DO>NOTES

    And of course none of this works if you're using the DECwindows
    interface to NOTES.  Further discussion of NOTES tips can take
    place in the CLT::VAXNOTES_BUGS or OASS::VAXNOTES_INTRO conferences.
    
    				Steve