Conference quark::human_relations-v1

    See a lawyer immediately.  If not sooner.  Your plight makes me
    wonder if you had a lawyer represent you during your divorce
    negotiations.  It doesn't sound like it, or you had someone who
    wasn't looking out for your interests.
    
    I think your situation is much too complex for any plausible comment
    here.  A lot depends on how your divorce settlement was worded, and
    what other contracts you have signed since then.
    
    My gut reaction would be to tell your ex to take a hike, but she
    has your kids as hostages.  So run, don't walk, to a GOOD lawyer
    who is experienced in divorce and custody cases.
    
    And I hate to say it, but your now-ex-girlfriend was right...
    
    				Steve

	I am running, not walking to my lawyer.  I lit the fuse of a piece of 
dynamite, my X-wife.  After the HIGH tension of my last encounter I told her
I won't "bring all these changes I'm demanding down on her like a knife", she
has a few weeks to find another place to do her laundry, ect.  I picked up
my kids for the weekend on friday and let her do her laundry then.  I agreed to
do the boys stuff only for now.  When I did it the next day there was a bunch
of her stuff mixed in.  I separated her stuff and did not wash it.  On Sunday,
when I dropped the kids off with their clothes I explained her stuff was not 
washed by me, and left.  

	While resting, watching TV at home later that night My X-wife burst
thru the door, with my kids following.  She sat them down and proceeded to tare 
apart the house.  She flipped pictures off the wall, tore up some cards, tried
to wrip the turntable out of the cab, she said it was hers.  She then pulled my
quilt off my bed, saying it's hers because her mother made it.  I pulled it back
and reminded her of all the stuff I had before knowing her and she now has it.
She threw things and made a mess.  During this tantrum she is screaming at 
high volume at me.  She's calling me vindictive, and says she is moving back in.
I said "GET OUT".  "Get off of this property, the dcree puts a restraining order
on you not to interfere with my personal liberties".  I told her she gave up all
rights to live in this house when she moved to N.H.  All of this is going on
in front off my 2 little boys and x-stepson (15).  The little boys are crying.

	I decided to leave, I was going to blow up if I didn't.  I went to leave
and her car was behind me in the driveway.  I asked her to move it.  She said,
"NO".  I asked for the keys, she said, "NO".  I was so angry I screamed at her
and she backed up onto a bed while I went to grab the keys.  She fell down and
off the bed.  I reached over and grabbed her keys from her hand.  At the time
her 15 yr old ran in and thought I was beating her.  So he tries to push me
around, I pushed him aside and left.  I moved her car and left.

	I felt so bad for my kids seeing this and was so angry with their mother
that I couldn't stop shaking.  I was on the way to the police when I said, NO.
I can't expose them to more.  And all of these things happening with all of the
legal implications has me so confused I didn't know what the right thing to do
was.  She told me she would break in whenever she wants to.  So I set up a 
camera and recorder on the main entrance.  I will be talking with my lawyer
this morning.  

						George

         Very, very bad move.  Expect to be accused of assault.  Expect her
    to have moral "high-ground" in any court proceedings. Expect the shaft.
    
                                     GB

    George,
    
    Have your considered changing the locks??  This lady sounds like she
    has a serious problem...  Yes, call your lawyer TODAY!!!
    
    Bev
    

    	I have changed the locks, this weekend.  That was another issue my
    X-wife blew-up about.  
    
    	I contacted My lawyer, appt tomorrow am, the local police to ask
    how I should handle it, the EAP for references.  I'm trying to do
    everything I can to protect myself and my children.  If anyone has any
    other suggestions please make them.
    
    				Thanks for the feedback!
    					George

    George,
    
    I feel bad for you and for your children.  Beside the wise advice of
    getting a very good attorney, I would suggest you getting some
    couseling to help you deal with your frustrations and to help you
    become a nice guy who can stand up for his rights rather than a nice
    guy who thinks he can only be nice if he's a human door mat.  It kinda
    has a co-dependent ring to it.  (Having gone the co-dependent route
    myself, I speak from some experience.) 
    
    Please keep us posted on what happens.  I wish you well.
    
    Many hugs and support,
    Barb

      Maybe this is a silly question but..... how do any of you expect a lawyer
to help in this situation? Post an armed guard at the house? Have more court
orders issued? I didn't get the impression from what George said that there
were any significant legal issues that are left to be resolved.

      The first paragraph in .0 said that George's x-wife would:

 - Have the right to live in the house until the youngest child was emancipated.
 - Be responsible for the bills and upkeep.

    It also seems that George has legal(?) access to his children on weekends,
and that he pays some sort of child support. At least this is what I interpret
from the base note. George was under no legal obligation to pay the first
mortgage payment but for reasons of his own choosing, he decided to do so.

    Things went downhill from this point on and it became apparent to me that
George and his x-wife never got divorced. They got divorced legally but from
George's description of what's going on they never got divorced emotionally.
They are just as married now as they were before December of '89.

    George, these are some of the things I see going on in the 'x-wife doesn't
want to see x-girlfriend with George' scenario such as it is.....

      * Allowing others to set limits on what you can do.

      * Have trouble ending things.

      * Problems establishing boundaries.

      * Don't know what you want.

      * Putting others needs/wants first.

      * Reality and confrontation avoidance.

      * People-pleasing - trying to keep everyone happy.

    You say "I want a LIFE". Fight for your life George. Working through these
issues is what it takes to get on with your life and helping your x-wife avoid
that process isn't doing her any favors, in fact it's probably causing her
harm. Your x-wife's problems need to be purged from your life in order to leave
the problems with the owner for resolution. There is nothing wrong with caring
about her but it is not your responsibility to take care of her.

    I don't think a lawyer can help with these core issues.

    Take care & best wishes,

    Rick

	dial 1 900-HIT_LIST  and ask for Luigi 

	(with tongue in cheek of course )   :-)

    A lawyer will help exactly because the legal issues are not clear.
    John's ex is claiming she owns this or that and has rights to do
    other things.  John should be able to get (or have enforced if he
    already has) an order of exclusive use for the house and contents.
    If he has this, and his ex violates it, she can be arrested.  He
    could also get an order requiring her to stay away from him.
    
    I agree with others that the physical tussle throws a wild card
    into the situation.  John should follow his lawyer's advice
    to the letter.
    
    			Steve

    Here's my .02.  I think legally she can come and go as she pleases.
    I knew a couple who divorced, and she moved out.  He had the locks
    changed, she came back with the police and broke in.  From what I heard
    she had every right legally to break in cause she still owned half
    the house.  I don't that is for sure, but it might be worth asking
    the police.  It was the Leominster police that accompanied her too.
    
    Also, sometimes there is a clause written into a divorce agreement
    that states something about any "outside agreements" being void.
    
    Divorce is a messy situation, I went through something similar, where
    I had "without realizing" signed my name off the deed to the house,
    and didn't (because I didn't have a lawyer) ask to have my name
    taken off the mortgage.  So I was stuck with Debt, but nothing to
    show for it.  I went back to court, but no such luck.  
    
    Sounds to me like she is already receiving some advice, she seems
    to know what she can and can't do and what her limitations are.
    
    I really hope everything works out for you.

Re: .10

If John had an order guaranteeing him "exclusive use", his ex would NOT be
allowed to break in.  Most divorce settlements contain such a clause - if
John's doesn't, that was a major omission.

			Steve

******************************************************************************

	Notes from my visit with my Lawyer on March 12, 1991

	Today I met with my lawyer to make the appropriate changes to the
Divorce Decree which reflect the changes since my Divorce.

	Petition for Modification:
		I moved into the house
		I have right of purchase (buying her out)
		Restriction of her on property
		Credit of $3000 out of her equity for her bills I paid.

	The Modification will be filed within the next 2 days.
	A sheriff will serve notice to my X-wife
	A court date will be set.

	If there is no resistance by my X-wife then this will all cost me
a flat $750.  If she does offer resistance then alott more time and money.
******************************************************************************

	Last night I came home from work very leery of what I might find.
I checked out the house completely and all was ok.  My X-wife did not come
by as she threatened.  I hung arround for a while and went out shopping.
When I got back there was a message on my answering machine from her saying,
"The War is Over.  You can have the house and everything in it. I won't bother
you anymore.  I am planning on moving from the area, though."

	This is part of the modis-oporandi for my X to back-off sheepishly
knowing that I always give in and feel bad for her.  This time I am not.
I still went to my lawyer and got the ball rolling.  Even though it's going
to cost me I am definitely going thru with these changes.

	I await a strong reaction from her once she is served.  I just
hope she sees that all I'm asking for is what already exists and it would be
a waste of her money and time to fight it.

	I do feel good about doing this for me.

					Thanks for all the Feedback
						George

    Good luck, George!  Keep us posted.
    
    Barb

    
    George,
    
    	Just be prepared for phase 2... when she starts using the kids to
    get to you even more so...  make sure you have visitation rights
    straight.  
    
    
    						jean
    
    

    George what happened I sure hope you saw the lawyer.  You have rights
    too.  But it always seems the man ends up with the bad end.  

    re: -.1
    
    Please don't generalize like that.  While I'll agree that from what's
    been presented here, George's ex treats him like a doormat.  There are
    also cases where a woman takes a lot of abuse from her ex.  It' not
    *always* one way or the other.
    
    Mary

    Mary,
    
    I dunno... it STILL seems in this day and age of "Equality" that the 
    courts tend to favor the woman moreso then the man in a divorce
    situation.... 
    
    No it isn't right.... When I divorced, my wife held a job that paid 
    the same amount that mine did.... child support aside I had to pay 
    her alimony to find a place to live.... Now, when she left me to 
    carry the load of the rent which up till then was shared, she made 
    no attempt to pay me any money or give me a chance to find a place 
    I could afford.... instead she packed up moved in with her mother 
    and left me stranded to pay the rent.  
    
    She took my son with her, and Although I am in a better situation to 
    support and take care of him, the courts still feel that the child 
    belongs with the mother.  
    
    In somethng like 79% of all child custody cases the mother still gets
    custody not because she is better able to take care of the child, but 
    because of the "idea" that the child "belongs" with it's mother.
    
    IN cases where property settlements are arranged in court, the woman
    tends to receive a much higher precentage then the man... it isn't 
    based on how much the woman made while living with the man... or 
    what percentage of pay was put into the purchases... heck even property
    owned before they were married is subject to being "given" to the 
    woman over the man in many MANY cases....
    
    "Equal Rights" in divorce preceedings is something that has only
    STARTED to be complained about by Fathers and Husbands in the U.S.
    And like the ERA... it's going to be a long time before "Justice 
    and Equality" are a reality.
    
    Skip

    George:
    
    How's this for a solution?  How about renting the entire house out to
    others?  How about moving yourself to a modest house nearby.  That
    *might* secure a more stable environment for you.  This way a
    restraining order *might* be more effective and she surely couldn't
    claim that she had any rights *"visiting"* your new dwelling.  As
    co-landlords your would be tenants surely would have rights of privacy
    and it would be theirs and the local authorities issue should she
    disturb them.  Though this is drastic it would provide a peaceful
    interim solution until your lawyer can officially effect permanent
    changes.
    
    Barb

    Skip,
    
    Much of what you say about the courts not being equitable, and favoring
    one side may be true.  I am certainly in favor of reform for divorce
    law.  Our social and family structure has been changing and the law has
    not kept up with it.  But, there is a difference between saying there
    is a bias in the system and saying that the man *always* gets the bad
    end of the deal.  It's a generalization that doesn't fit the facts.
    
    Mary

    .16,.19
    So delete (Always) I have been thru divorce twice the first include
    my daughter.  Even tho my lawyer kept saying to (Get Him) for child 
    support i said no!!!  I only made 7.00 per hr. back then but i still 
    said NO.  As Skip mentioned the % is high.  But there is no need to 
    get bent for lthe misuse of a word or to take it so personal.  My 
    note is really for George who is a doormat for his ex, but for his kids
    he takes it.  My daughters father never cared and mine do not either.
    So I know that pain very well.  You do what you have to for your kids.
    

    >But there is no need to  get bent for lthe misuse of a word or to take
    >it so personal.
    
    Uh ... er... I think you may be reading a lot into my replies.  I
    really didn't take it personal, did you?  It wasn't intended that way. 
    I'm not sure if I "got bent" 'cause I'm not familiar with that phrase. 
    What does it mean anyway?
    
    Mary

    To all no need to worry i won't bother this group anymore.
    
    

    Help,
    
    My husband left a short time ago. I am living in our home.
    I put down the down payment on this home and contibuted at least
    1/3 of all the bills. I also bought the food. He is still paying
    his end of the deal, but I am slowly taking over more bills ie.
    phone bill ect. 
    
    He left me because I was sick for the last 2 years and he could
    no longer deal with it. I am really heartsick. I have just returned
    to work after being out for a year. I just can't get myself to
    see a lawyer. I can't even imagine getting though the weekend.
    
    I can't afford the house alone. I have a daughter from a prevous
    marriage. We have been married for 4 years. Most of my friends
    advise me to see a lawyer because this was the 2nd time he has
    left me when I was sick. And I could have it all. I just can't
    I hurt too much. How can I protect myself when I can barely
    work part time and even take care of me. I feel so lost.
    
    I can't imagine going though a divorce again. What happened
    to "in sickness and in health". 
    
    He knows it is not my fault I got ill, but He is so much happier
    and relaxed now. I bounce from shock, denial, grief, but where
    is the anger that will help me take care of me?
    
    Any advise on where you get the strength to even call a lawyer?
    
    
    The left one.
    

    
    
    You need help....
    
    Contact the EAP explain the problem... sometimes it helps to have an 
    impartial person listen and offer suggestions. They can also help find 
    a support group for your husband if that is a viable alternative.  It
    isn't easy to live with someone who is always ill, my mother was, it 
    took a toll on my father and all four of us youngsters.  (Her last 
    10 years were spent more in the hospital then at home). We all started 
    going to a family support group for such a situation and it helped A
    LOT!  Unfortunatly that was in California and I don't know if there is 
    such a group available out here on the East Coast or not.
    
    As for the anger.... whoever said it took anger to get through such 
    things?  It takes personal strength and a determination that you 
    aren't going to let it happen anymore.  Until you make that decision,
    and find the resolve to see it through, you are going to be at his 
    mercy until HE decides to do something more.
    
    Skip
    

    
    
    
    I am getting help. Alot of help and because of that I am back
    to work 20 hours a week. My husband doesn't want help" this
    is my illness , my problem. Pull myself up by th boot straps
    ect. ect. and get on with my life. It takes people along time
    to recover from major illness. As soon as I was ready to 
    return to work he left. He has been affected but thinks that
    leaving is the way for him. I am afraid to face a DEC. I
    don't know, to learn my job over again, layoffs and ajusting
    to a seperation. Sick or not it took more courage and fight
    to come back off LDT 2 weeks after my husband left me, than 
    most people I know have. I just am really feeling cheated,
    I didn't ask to get sick.
    
    

    Yes, life IS unfair and NO, you didn't ask/deserve to get sick. And all
    these changes and stress are good reason to be frightened. Try to
    be gentle with yourself and take one day at a time. And maybe do
    something special every night to congratulate yourself for making it 
    through just one more day. Sometimes just taking a hot bath and reading a 
    light magazine can feel like a reward. 
    
    And continue getting whatever help you can. If you have supportive friends 
    and family nearby, please don't be afraid to lean on them for awhile.
    At this point, you need to take care of yourself. 
    
    As for facing DEC, I recommend that you consider posting your base note
    in WOMMANOTES (rats..I forget where it is). You will get lots of warmth
    from women in DEC who have faced similar problems.
    
    Have courage, you've made it this far. 
    
    Hugs,
    
    Joan G.
    
    
      

Re: .26

WOMANNOTES is at IKE22::WOMANNOTES-V3.  Of course, that conference has no
monopoly on caring participants.


Re: .25

You asked in your earlier note "what happened to 'in sickness and in health?'
Unfortunately, what happened to you is what happens to a lot of people -
they find that their partner didn't take their wedding vows seriously, but
instead just mouthed the words.  Unfortunately, it seems to take a shock
like this to make one realize it.

You are in a very difficult situation - you need strength more than
anything, but your illness saps it.  Find your strength in friends, in
the caring community of noters here and elsewhere, in family.  Use EAP
and other services available to you.  Find a lawyer and learn what your
rights are.  Protect your assets, your home, your daughter and yourself
with a court order, if necessary.  Don't let your husband jerk you
around.

Anger is useful, but only if you channel it productively.  Use it to
put your life back on track again.

				Steve

    
    I want to thank all the replies from the noters here. I have
    
    an appointment with a lawyer next week. I spoke with my husband
    
    and told him what I wanted for myself and my daughter. He is
    
    doesn't think it is reasonable.
    
    I also called my Mom who lives in Md. and she is staying with
    
    me this week.
    
    Today I really felt like giving up and going out on LTD, and
    
    admitting myself in the hospital. I just can't believe the
    
    mood swings, lack of sleep or sleeping 12 hours, eating ok,
    
    or not eating. I have lost 7lbs in 3 weeks.
    
    I know that my self worth has hit the bottom and maybe I just
    
    have a really bad state of mind today. 
    
    Putting one foot infront of another is so hard some days and
    
    I just pray all the time. Bad things happen to good people.
    
    But this has been going on for 5 years and it really gets old,
    
    when you were so independent and could bounce back in the past.
    
    I really wonder will I ever bounce back again. I lost myself
    
    and I am looking but I find a person I never was. 
    
    I sure this must sound like the "poor me's". And I guess it is
    
    but I can't see life after the failure of my 2nd marriage.
    
    It is so strange because I know that I have so much more
    
    that and illness. My therapist and Doctor tell me this all
    
    the time, but the man I loved for years told me that I was
    
    never good enough. I was brainwashed. It is hard to stop those
    
    tapes from playing.
    
    Down today,
    
    Suzanne
    

    
    
    Suzanne
    
    
    First off, wrap your arms around yourself and give yourself a big
    hug!!!
    
    Just from your notes I get the impression that you have not lost
    yourself as you state.  In fact, I feel you may know yourself
    more than you want to.  Hang in there (I'm sure you're sick of
    hearing that!!)
    
    You really have to do what is best for yourself and your 
    daughter.  If your husband does not want to stick around anymore
    there really is little you can do if that is what he has decided
    is the best choice for him.  Don't look at it as the failure of
    your marriage, look at it as the beginning of another chapter in
    your life.  The fact that you are seeking help from folks sends
    a signal out that you feel you are a valued person.  Dig deep and
    tap into your inner beliefs.  
    
    Take care,
    Michele

    Suzanne:
    
    If I could reach through this terminal, I'd send a hug your way for
    sure .... but wires and my waistline being the way they are, I'm afraid
    that's an impossibility .....
    
    ...would you settle for a little smile....?   :)
    
    						--Eric--

    Okay, Suzanne, fall apart, then pick yourself up and put yourself back
    together.  Use the excuse "I can't do it for me, but I *can* do it for
    my child."  As a long time single parent with 3 of 7 children still at
    home, I've been down and felt defeated many, many times.  I have a good
    cry, feel rightfully sorry for myself, then give myself a good mental
    "kick" in the head and say, "Okay, it's time to pick yourself up and
    start over."  Over time, it becomes easier.  I didn't say it wasn't
    tiring, or draining or burdensome, Suzanne.  I simply said it becomes
    easier because you've had to do it over and over and over again, and
    you will probably have to do it in the future.  The thing is that you
    become stronger and tougher over time and better able to cope because
    you will have lots of practice.
    
    I could go on for pages, but will stop with this.  If I can be of
    further help or support, please write me here or at SLOVAX::HASLAM.
    
    Best Wishes and Lots of Hugs,
    Barb

    Suzanne,
    
    I've been there...trust me, hang on for dear life and fight like
    hell...it *WILL* get better.  If all else fails, then use that maternal
    instinct....but don't give up, and don't give in.  My grandmother
    always says that a door never completely closes before a window opens
    up.  At the times that I thought it was the worst and I couldn't take
    anymore, something happened to help, even if it was just a little,
    something would happen.  If you have a hard time believing that it will
    get better, then just believe that I believe.
    
    Hugs and warm thoughts,
    
    Lynne