Conference quark::human_relations-v1

    Almost exactly the same thing as you did.   Though to be honest,
    I'm not sure I would have given the man a second chance for his
    money.
    
    If you still feel strange about it you might donate some of it to
    charity.  I personally would spend it on a night out on the town. ;^)
    
    
    
                                    L.J.

    DITTO!
    
    I'd also feel the same way you do, too...so don't feel *SO* bad!
    
    Bon

    
    Well, I'm sorry but I think I would have called the Police and hung
    around until they got their and explained the situation and given them
    the money.  The Police could have taken him into Protective Custody
    until he sobered up.  Apparently, he has a sickness.  He also could
    have family who won't eat this week or bills that will not get paid.
    
    Not you fault, but you did ask how we felt. 
    
    D.

    I would have done almost the same thing you did: I would have collected
    the money, and I would have gone back to the man and rolled down my
    window; the only difference would be the question that I asked: "Hey,
    any more where that came from?"
    
    -Mike
    

    I'd have done what .3 suggested. Get the police and give them
    the money and a description of the man if he'd disappeared.
    
    Bonnie

    re .3 .5:
    
    In my book of ethics, this is the right thing to do.  
    
    re .0:

    Forgive me for being blatant, but you ask for our opinions.
    
    If it is too much a trouble for one to lend a helping hand as .3 and
    .5 suggested, the very least one should do was to leave it as it was.
    
    Maybe the next person who drove by him would have offered a helping hand
    and done what .3 and .5 suggested.  The "if I don't take it, someone else
    will" argument just doesn't wash.  That "someone else" could be
    a policeman, a priest or some simple folks like .3 and .5.  Even if that
    hypothetical someone would have taken advantage of the situation, 
    it does not justify the action itself.  Especially, when it is taking 
    money from such a miserable man who may have, as .3 suggested, a family
    depending on that money for their next week's food.
    
    Eugene

    P.S.  Strictly for myself...

    I will be the first to admit that I would probably have been tempted 
    if I find a ten dollar bill on a deserted street corner.  But if I am 
    faced with a wretched soul driven to the point of utter despair standing
    right in front of me staring at me with eyes full of sorrow, how could 
    I possibly justify taking advantage of the situation?  How could I ever
    justify the action to myself?

    Not to send this into a rathole, however, if the man had been an
    alcoholic, he would NOT have throw the money away on the street.  It
    would have been thrown on to a bar or package store counter.  I would
    have called the police, or brought the money down to the station.  He
    could have tied one on to ease whatever pain he was going through and
    the booze took over his actions from there.  You could still turn the
    money in with an explanation, and then, if no one collects it (I'm not
    sure what the time limit is), you could still wind up with $285.00 in
    your pocket.
    
    Lynne
    

    
    I'd have gone shopping.
    
    Actually, I don't know.  I may not have even stopped.  I'm sure I
    wouldn't have had my lady hold the money towards him out the window. 
    Too risky.
    

>Note 1136.0                 What would you have done?                  8 replies
>    
      Easy. STOPPED AND HELPED HIM. not myself.
      Well..
              The correct thing to have done was to have stopped and helped
      the man. He comes under the heading of Weak, wounded or unaware person
      rule. These people should NOT be taken advantage of. He was (from your
      description) not in posesion of all his faculties.
      The wrong thing to have done was to have driven past. This is the
      somebody else problem. (quite forgiveable though)
      That somebody else would have taken the money does not change the fact
      that you are responsible for your own actions and standards.
      I suggest that you make every attempt to return the money and if you
      fail then add 25% of your own money to it (by way of compensation) and
      pass it to AA or any other local charity.
      Rgds,
      
      Can you imagine what news or problems this person could be trying to
      come to terms with.     
      
      He could also be a drunkem philanthropic millionaire, if this is
      established then find out where he normally drinks. 8-).
 

    
    	I guess the term "simple folks" equates to people being brutally
    honest. What does that make .0 then - complicated? I would not try to 
    correlate alcoholism to specific behaviors such as where people are
    going to spend their money. Also, I think the suggestion of adding
    a 25% additional "guilt rider" is a pretty silly...
    
    	There's a concept called "enabling" which is basically the idea
    of removing someone's responsibility toward their own actions. Sooner
    or later, this drunk is going to have to face the results of his
    own choices, and in that sense you're helping him to do that sooner
    by *not* assisting him in "getting out of this one, this time".
    
    	I realize it sounds cruel and un-humanitarian. On the other
    hand, say this guy were to sober up, go to the police station and
    get all his money back. His experience would only have taught him
    that it's _perfectly okay_ to go out, get drunk and throw his paycheck
    to the wind! That there are no negative consequences to his negative
    behaviors. Some "kind soul" will pick up the pieces _for_ him and make
    everything okay.
    
    	Joe
    

    Put yourself in this man's shoes for a minute.  If you were in his
    condition, for whatever reason, how would you want to be treated?
    
    IMO, if things had gotten to the point where I was throwing money in
    the street, I would hope that someone would take me to a safe place
    where I could find help.  I don't see that help as enabling.
    
    None of us know why that man was throwing money on the street.  Any
    number of factors came into play.  If the police had been called, they
    could have dealt with the situation.
    
    
    Judi
    

    I would have picked up the money.   I cannot say what I'd do after
    that but I know I'd be troubled by just picking up the money.  I'd
    probably make a donation to help the homeless, though it might be
    homeless cats instead of humans.  I do know that I wouldn't use
    DEC's matching funds because I wouldn't feel that it was my money
    that I had donated.
    
    ed

    
    I would have stopped to help.  I can't help but to be alittle upset
    about it.  I mean, How do you know for sure that this man was drunk.
    This man could have had a sudden medical emergency.  He may have had
    a reaction to some new medication given to him.  The list goes on.
    
    I can't help but to tell you I would have been more considerate.  The
    mistake made was something you need to chock up as a learning
    experiance.  I don't think you would do the same thing again a second
    time.  I also would probably call the town police department where you
    saw this man and tell them the story.  You will most likely be able to
    keep the money if this person does not claim it in a certain period of
    time.  You have nothing to lose doing this and you will gain what I
    think you need from your actions.  A clear conscious.
    
    Think about this happening to you due to some sort of reason induced
    with no intent on your own.  Possibly a new medication given to you
    with no real understanding of how it would effect you.
    
    I hope this helps...

RE: .0

One thing I hear is what people would do in a perfect situation.
Leaving the money would do no good because the next person could
just as easily pick it up and walk away.  By doing nothing, you've
contributed to making it worse.

On the other hand, we try to be good and do as much as we can to help 
others.  However, we also have to realize that there is a limit to
what we can or should do.  If you walked away with the money that was
thrown away, no one has a right to say that you are a bad person because
you didn't do anything with the money you picked up off the ground.
If you decided to contribute the money to charity or to give it to the
police, well, gee, that's nice, but this isn't a perfect world and no one
has a right to expect you to conform to their expectations.  You can't
solve the world's problems and you have to realize that you're not a
bad person for that.

Personally, I wouldn't know what I would do in that situation.  I could
say that I would have helped the guy on the street  or I could have
left him.  I've walked by drunks in the street, but I've also picked up
one guy and walked him about a mile to his family's house.  There is no
right or wrong here; you do what you can and that's it.

B.

    I agree with those who think it was wrong to take the money.  The man
    was obviously in some sort of trouble and I think it's wrong to take
    advantage of that by helping yourself to the money.
    
    I admire those who would have tried to help or at least call the
    police.
    
    Personally, I would have probably kept going.  I would not have taken
    his money but I would probably have been afraid to help him.  I would
    probably have been afraid that he might be dangerous.  As a small woman
    who doesn't carry a gun or know self defense, I tend to be afraid of
    approaching drunk and/or angry men.
    
    It's true that if I kept going and didn't take the money, the next
    person might have taken the money.  But, at least my conscience would
    be clear.  I would know that I hadn't greedily taken advantage of
    someone else's misery.
    
    Lorna
    

    
    	What's confusing to .0 is that the situation isnt a "lost wallett"
    where it's so clear morally to turn it in for claim. The obvious
    owner was addressed about the issue and he stated his wishes. It
    now becomes the moral issue of taking advantage of someone in a
    condition where they're (supposedly) completely unaccountable for 
    their choice of action and decisions. A condition such as being
    drunk.
    
    	I didnt mean to come off sounding like a heartless ogre in my 
    previous reply, I only wanted to point out that whenever you remove 
    someone's accountability from their chosen action, you're enabling
    them to continue on with like behavior(s). Simply an alternative opinion
    to what was presented so far. 
    
    	I'm not sure I could justify my choice of keeping this money based
    on that ideal alone. I do agree with one thing that was pointed out;
    there are likely so many factors at play here, you dont know *what*
    was really going on - or what the right thing for this guy would be.
    If your conscious is bothering you, put the money up for claim and
    wait the time - then the decision of "what's right for him" will be 
    up to "someone else" - and you'll have cleared yourself of any
    reason to feel guilty about it.

    	Joe

      Just for fun also,
      there is the legal aspect. perhaps some kind soul out there knows how
      the law veiws taking money from someone who is currently incapable of
      making a judgment.??
      Rgds,

    One evening after seeing a lovely concert by Neil Diamond, my hubby and
    I went to Friendly's Resturant for ice cream...on the floor I noticed a
    $50.00 bill..................what did I do???????????
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    I Picked it up and put it in my pocket!!!!! ;-)

    re .19, that's different. You didn't know who had dropped the $50., and
    if you had given it to the cashier Friendly's would have just kept it
    (or the cashier!)
    
    Lorna
    

    My mother found, long time ago, a beautiful, heavy gold medal lying on
    the street, she picked it up and deposited in the police station, and
    asked that she be notified when the owner showed up... a month later,
    my mother saw the medal, hanging on the neck of the policeman's wife
    when both were at church!
    
    I got a large money amount from the bank and after I counted several
    times, found that I had an extra $100, so I called the bank and said I
    had "the" extra $100 bill, to let the cashier know, I took it to the
    bank the next day, the cashier said that he counted over and over the
    day's cash and NO MONEY was missing, so he gave me a receipt, and said
    that I would be deposited till the right owner appeared...
    Six months later I was called by the bank, and was given the $100 that
    nobody had claimed as being missing...
    Soooo, after 6 months, I got the money, put it in my bank account and
    thanked God for my good luck! (I was 13, and at that time, the money
    was a "generous" amount for any 13 year old kid!)
    
    There are all kinds of folks in the world... I guess I got an honest
    folk while my mother got the other kind! and on top of that,
    representing justice... oh well!

>Note 1136.10                What would you have done?                   10 of 13
>ELESYS::JASNIEWSKI "This time forever!"              23 lines   5-FEB-1991
>      Lets take the info that we have. 
        I guess the term "simple folks" equates to people being brutally
    honest. What does that make .0 then - complicated?
>      Confused...
                                                     I would not try to 
    correlate alcoholism to specific behaviors such as where people are
    going to spend their money.
>      Alcholics usually look after their money (for the next drink). This
>      person had had too much to drink or was under the influence of drugs or
>      perhaps simply sick.
>      
                                  Also, I think the suggestion of adding
    a 25% additional "guilt rider" is a pretty silly...
                                        >>>>>>>>>>>> 
>      The fact that the noter has put the note here makes me think that they
>      feel pretty badly about their behavior. They should in no way benefit
>      from a small moral slip. It does not matter how easily they got hold of
>      the money .. it never belonged to them and it never should.. 
    
        There's a concept called "enabling" which is basically the idea
    of removing someone's responsibility toward their own actions. Sooner
    or later, this drunk is going to have to face the results of his
    own choices, and in that sense you're helping him to do that sooner
    by *not* assisting him in "getting out of this one, this time".
>      The fewer people who saw themselves as the Judge, jury and executioner
>      of their fellows. The happier they would be.
    
        I realize it sounds cruel and un-humanitarian. On the other
    hand, say this guy were to sober up, go to the police station and
    get all his money back. His experience would only have taught him
    that it's _perfectly okay_ to go out, get drunk and throw his paycheck
    to the wind!
>      We don't know that it was his paycheck, there we go making assumptions
>      again. It could have been his wife's, it could have been stolen. He
>      could have been a complete teetotal person who was drinking to forget a
>      recent bereavemant. And being teetotal, the alcohol affected him
>      badly.
>      I dont know how much a shrink costs but perhaps some people would have
>      put their name and address into his pocket so that he could pay the rest
>      of the fee later.
                   That there are no negative consequences to his negative
    behaviors. Some "kind soul" will pick up the pieces _for_ him and make
    everything okay.
>      What is wrong with being a kind soul....Has the world come to point where
>      there is something wierd in being a kind soul.
>      I sleep far better after being told that I was the kind Soul who picked
>      up the pieces for someone.

What I REALLY would have done, is when I saw the guy acting wierd, I
wouldn't have stopped my car.

I tend to be "chicken" about these things and a bit paranoid.  So I'd
have a fear of being shot or attacked if I stopped to pick up the
money, or even to talk to him.

    
    It was me and I want my money back.
    
    Send it to...

    Hi,
    
    
    I'm sorry, but this note is getting to me :-) I would have done just
    what .0 did.  This is LIFE, this man could have been drunk, yes but
    I don't see too many people going out with $285.00 in their pocket if
    they can't afford it.  How do we know that this man doesn't make good
    money, and all he lost out on was one weeks pay?  I think its sorta
    rotten for some noters to make the base noter feel like a criminal. 
    The impression that I got was that in not so many words, she was being
    made to feel that she was dirt for doing an obviously natural act. 
    Lets be honest, when your in a store, and you purchase something, and
    the cashier rings in the wrong price (to your benefit), how many
    people speak up and say "Oh, excuse me, but I OWE you more money"? Heck
    no!   You most likely hurry up and get the hell out before they notice
    and then brag to someone about what happened.
    
    I think that the base noter deserves the money, she asked, and he said
    Take It... that was word enough.. like someone else said maybe the next
    time he will think twice about going out with that much money on him
    and being crazy enough to throw it away.  Oh, and as far as one noter
    mentioned about looking into this human being's eyes, the base noter
    didn't mention anything about eyes... I think some people read too much
    into it... life isn't a pretty picture, I think everyone has been burnt
    one way or another, and the only thing to say is you LIVE and you
    LEARN.
    
    KR

    re .25, .0 asked for other people's opinions and people gave it.  I
    didn't agree with .0 and I said so.
    
    People do get burnt and life isn't always pretty but it could be
    prettier if people made an effort to treat each other better, and to
    help others when they are down and made a mistake instead of taking
    advantage.
    
    Lorna
    
    
    

    >       <<< Note 1136.7 by DECXPS::DOUGHERTY "Let Freedom Ring" >>>

    >Not to send this into a rathole, however, if the man had been an
    >alcoholic, he would NOT have throw the money away on the street.  It
    >would have been thrown on to a bar or package store counter.

    Sounds like You've never had the "pleasure" of really knowing many 
    *real* alcoholics first hand, day in day out, and observing some of the
    irrational things that they do, that often seem to have some symbolic
    meanings (to the alcoholic).  I wouldn't be surprised if this guy was
    throwing his money away because a bunch of bill collectors were after
    him!

    Unfortunately, .0 brings  back memories. I recall my father getting angry
    and doing this a few times  when my mother was harping on him about
    overdue bills that he didn't want to hear about. He'd put on a real
    good show for the whole neighborhood and throw his whole paycheck (and
    any coins that he might have stashed away right in the middle of the
    street and it would get collected by the neighborhood kids. About half
    of it would usually be quietly returned by their parents, the rest kept
    by those of the mind that felt he "needed to be taught a lesson" or
    didn't want to "enable him" (of course, "enabling" wasn't a fashionable
    word at the time). Since he did it more than once, I'd say that he didn't
    learn much from it, and but it sure resulted in there not being much to
    eat for the next week or so. I guess what I am trying to say here is
    that to take the "harda**" or textbook approach of not "enabling" the
    alcoholic could have some potentially harmful implications on others that
    truly have to put up these kind of antics (I refer to young, dependent
    children living in an alcoholic household). And while I don't blame
    these neighbors for not returning the money, they sometimes came across with
    this attitude of superiority that gets to me to this day.

    Oh, and by the way, this (mis-)behavior isn't all that uncommon; His brother
    used to do this a lot, too, as did a a woman that frequented the Dunkin'
    Donuts that my cousin used to work at.
    
    What would I have done? I'd have picked up the $$ and tried to return it.
    If he wouldn't accept it, I'd try to keep him talking until I at least
    got his name and a ballpark location of where he was from. If I got the
    whole address, I'd quietly slip it into a mail box the next day,
    otherwise, I'd try turn the $$ and description/info over to the police.

    Deb 

    The bit I don't understand is why has .0 been entered anomymously?
    Feeling guilty or something?
    
    What would I do? Probably the same as you did. But if I wrote a note
    about it I wouldn't hide behind anomymity.
    
    Dave

    re: .27
    
    You'd be surprised Deb....you'd be VERY surprised.
    

    >>  The bit I don't understand is why has .0 been entered anomymously?
    >>  Feeling guilty or something?
    
    I thought I would have been asked that question long before now. I
    entered the note anonymously due to the simple fact that I am 
    protecting myself from any kind of harrassment from neighbors/
    co-workers.  How do I know who reads this file?  I don't feel  like
    being labeled a 'thief' and having folks I work with here wondering
    'gees, can we trust him/her'???
    
    In the basenote I stated "I am feeling a bit unsure about what we did".  
    One would probably read that as feeling guilty....so yes, if you need 
    to hear those exact words...I am feeling guilty about the situation.
        
    >>  What would I do?  Probably the same as you did.  But if I wrote a
    >>  note about it I wouldn't hide behind anomymity.
    
    That's how you would have handled it.
    

    Have you ever thought that the money might be "tainted"?

    - Vikas

    What I would have done is to donate it to a shelter.
    
    I do not think there would be anyway possible for the money to find
    the right person if just turned in somewhere. I think the man perhaps
    would never probably even try to claim it somewhere and if he has hurt
    people by what he has done maybe it might help him to change or maybe
    he had every right to do what he did......in either case the money
    belonged somewhere but I would certainly feel or know for sure it did
    not belong to me and it wasn't being given to me either...it belonged
    to him.

    RE: .29
    Lynne,

    sorry; I'm afraid that the base note set off some old tapes in me, and
    then I read your note. The first two sentences were reasoning/logic that I
    have heard before from folks that felt that they were enlightened about
    alcoholism but had never lived with it, and didn't understand how
    irrational someone can be when they are drunk (like the high school
    guidance counselor who accused me of lying when I told him of one of my
    father's $ throwing tantrums). I took what you wrote literally, and
    reacted to it. Yes, the money usually gets "thrown away" at a bar or
    package store, but unbelievably, I've seen it thrown into the street,
    and yes, the thrower was an alcoholic, not just a guy that had an
    isolated instance of losing control. And since I was responding in
    react mode, and based on my experience with folks that have never dealt
    with an alcoholic first hand, I couldn't conceive of a person that had
    really lived with alcoholism that didn't think that that kind of
    illogical/irrational behavior was unbelievable enough to be believable.

    If I offended you, I sincerely apologize. (BTW, the second half of that
    note was not directed at you but rather at the later  discussion on
    enabling an alcoholic's behavior; I must have accidentally deleted the 
    RE: and quote as I could swear that I put in there).

    Deb

>Note 1136.30                What would you have done?                   30 of 32
>QUARK::HR_MODERATOR                                  19 lines   6-FEB-1991 10:00
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
      Back to your original question Ms. Anonymous.

      Most people would have been tempted. Without that aspect there would be
      no discussion.
      Some see it as taking an unfair advantage.
      Others see it as an oportunity to punishment 'that satan drink'.
               **********With many shades in between.************

      What is interesting now, is that after hearing our arguments and if it
      happened again, Would you and your boyfriend,--

      0. Drive past.
      1. Stop and help.
      2. Stop and help yourself.
      3. Stop and help yourself and try and get a bit more.
      4. Tar and feathering + horsewhipping is not out of the question. That
         would really make him remember the drinking bout.
      Rgds,
      PS...
      My 4th suggestion is meant as a joke and is without reference to the
      opinion of others expressed above.. blah,, glah .. blah.. etc

    re .34
    
    Another option:
    
    	If you felt that you would have been in physical danger, had you
    	stopped to help this person, would you have reported it to the
    	police?
    
    
    Judi
    

    re: .33 (Deb)
    
    No offense taken hun...honest.
    
    Lynne
    

    .0        
    
    Take the money to the police station of the town this event occurred
    in.  Give the police the money, give them a description of the man, the
    date, time, etc.  Fill out the needed forms.
    
    If the police find the man, and the money gets returned to him, you
    have done your "good deed" for the day.  You returned something that
    didn't belong to you.
    
    If the police don't find the man and the money goes unclaimed, you get
    it.  You can then keep it, or give it to a charity, because the money
    *does* belong to you.  You made an honest effort to return it.  
    
    Asking an obviously sick and disturbed man if he wants money back that
    he just threw away is not an honest attempt to turn it in.  I don't
    care if you need the money yourself, or just plain would like to have
    it--it's not yours to keep.  Not until you make an honest effort to
    return it.
    
    

    RE: 1136.34
    
    Interesting question...If it happened again, how would I handle it
    today? The absolute truth is that I would find the nearest pay phone
    and make a  phone call to the police.  Let them go to the scene and
    handle it.
    
    For your information, and other noters as well, I have since the time
    of the incident contacted a policeman that I am friendly with.  I told
    him what happened.  He was 99% sure he knew who the person was.  Seems
    this  person had been arrested that same night (or the night before)
    for being  a disorderly person.  He said the guy is 'crazy' and is
    sometimes 'off- the-wall'.
    
    He said that he was going to talk to him.  He would not tell him that I
    called him but would question him about his actions over the weekend. 
    So far I have heard nothing.
    
    I feel good about having made the call.  Now I'm just waiting to turn
    the  money in.
    

    re: .37 and .38  notes collision
    
    Hooray for you, .0 -- you did the right thing.  In a world full of
    people just waiting to take advantage of other people's misfortunes and
    mistakes, you've set yourself above the crowd.  The good that you've
    done will come back to you, surely.
    
    As for those of you who said you would keep it--well, I can only
    wonder...
    

    I guess my .6 is a bit too strong, and I owe .0 an apology.  
    The very fact she was troubled by what happened and had the 
    courage to post it here even anonymously says a lot about her 
    character, let alone the fact that she is now making an extra effort 
    to return the money.  Whoever you are, I have a lot of respect and 
    deep admiration for you and what you did.
 
    I think my .6 was directed more towards some of the responses, 
    the responses that took the situation in such a callous and heedless 
    manner.  I know this is just notes, and I am surprised at myself the
    way I reacted.  After all, I am the one who used to insist a sense 
    of humor in notes.  I guess I just don't feel very well these days.  
    So now I hope I can put the matter in perspective and explain the way 
    I feel calmly.

    If I find a $10 bill at the corner of a desolate street, I will be 
    very much tempted to keep it.  I know this is probably not absolutely
    honest, but chances are no one knows whom that $10 belong to.

    Had I found a wallet with whatever amount of money in it, I would 
    make an effort to return it.  It would be definitely unethical and 
    wrong to keep the wallet for one self.

    However, if one is faced with someone in utter despair to the point of 
    throwing his money away and still take advantage of the situation without 
    any feeling of empathy (I emphasize that I am not referring to anyone 
    here and definitely not to .0 who cared and empathized enough to enter 
    the note and return the money.), it is no longer an issue of ethics.  
    It is not even unethical.  It is below ethics (or commonly known as a 
    "very low blow").

    As to "enabling" and "disabling", this is one of those rare great moments 
    in history when taking advantage of someone's misery is known as doing the
    miserable man a favor-- Let's teach him a lesson and take the money as 
    tuition.  It is only fair.

    Obviously, everyone gets burned in life, but that does not mean it is 
    right to burn someone.

    Sorry, I guess I am at it again.  I don't mean to offend anyone here, and
    I sincerely apologize if I did, and I promise I won't write another 
    response to this note.

    Eugene
    

    re .40, Eugene, I don't think there's any need for you to apologize for
    being nicer than other people.
    
    Lorna