Conference quark::human_relations-v1

    If you're not going to honor the commitments you make when you get
    married, or at least try like h__l, why bother to do anything at all?
    At that point commitments mean nothing.
    
    Doesn't touch the whjole issue, but is just a first quick reaction...
    
    ....Bob

    Marriage is something done at free will, no one (in our modern world)
    can force another to get married against their will, so when a person
    gets married, is bonded by a committment, an oath for LIFE... sworn in
    front of sclesiastical, legal, or both, representative of authority, 
    and as .1 said, the least a person can do is try like h--l to honor it!
    if not, why do it, or even try it? it is perfectly normal to live a 
    single life and be unatached instead of swearing to do something that
    we're not planning to carry on for long... IMO singles have a lot of
    advantages, can live where they want, spend or save as they want,
    choose company (meaning friends etc, to be with) at will and don't have
    to adapt, or feed, support, other members of a family... if a person
    has to "spend enormous amount of phychic and physical energy to search"
    for a companion... that's no fun, it is a forced state and I believe,
    a marriage was meant to be easier than that! (at least, I find it a
    blessing, never an "effort" and I've in there for many years...)
     

    If you don't settle down with one partner it seems to me that
    you'd spend much more effort finding a series of temprorary ones.
    
    I'm not quite sure what the point of what you are writing is. Are
    you arguing that marriage/monogamy is no longer a valid option?
    
    Bonnie

    Marriage/lasting partnerships are probably more efficient,
    but are we 'hardwired' for efficiency ?  don't really think
    there's anything instinctive about it. Married people have the
    same feelings of attraction to persons other than their spouse,
    but their conscious decision to put their marriage over their
    attraction to others keeps them from acting on their random 
    feelings. (Of course, if their commitment isn't strong enough,
    they'll probably screw up the marriage. The high divorce rate
    adds further argument against marriage being 'instinctive'.)
    
    The wide variety of patterns in the other animals, from life-long
    pairing to 'harems' maintained by dominant males, indicates that 
    no one pattern is universal. Add in the human factor of '_choice_
    and it gets really sticky.
    

    But what about the desire to find someone willing to take the time 
    to fully and completely understand you?  Isn't that what marriage is 
    REALLY all about?  And the reason we try to find that one special 
    and significant individual who is willing to "put up" with our 
    short commings... in hopes of them learning about us and becoming 
    more then a stray lover or casual friend.  I've found that I open up 
    more to someone the longer I know them and that I have a strong desire
    no make that a need to share all the experiences accumulated within 
    myself with someone who will take the time to listen to me.  In return
    I find that I tend to have a curiosity and need to find out the same 
    things about them...  There is a satisfaction in knowing that no 
    matter what happens to me in the future there is someone who knows me 
    so well that they can find the right way of making me feel "right" when
    I experience something that makes me feel "wrong".
    
    As for the varied rituals of animals... you seem to suggest that we 
    would be better off if we were ameaba (sp?) and procreated by fussion 
    (I think that's the right term)
    
    Skip

>>	There is a satisfaction in knowing that no 
>>    matter what happens to me in the future there is someone who knows me 
>>    so well that they can find the right way of making me feel "right" when
>>    I experience something that makes me feel "wrong".


	ahh, Skip that is soooo nice.  Happy holidays to you, and I hope
you have found that person....

	Mikki
    

    the programming starts with Barbies and other dolls that come with
    wedding gowns, and with "dating games" like "Mystery Date" (I know
    there's now a modern equivalent out but forget the name of it).  
    
    Part of the programming comes from thinking of the perfect mate as a
    prize you win and own and keep, as an end in and of itself, as
    something that is expected of you and that you shouldn't question, and
    as something that relatives or friends may continue to pressure you
    towards after they think you have passed the appropriate marriageable
    age.  
    
    I think that's why we need to question WHY we get married - how it will
    affect any relationship we're in and what will come next.  In addition,
    I think we need to widen our current definitions of marriage to include
    alternative styles of marriage - open marriages, multiple person
    marriages, and same-sex marriages - so that people can cultivate and
    grow within the types of relationships THEY feel are best for them.
    
    -Jody
    

    Jody,
    
    Your comments make me wonder what your marriage status is.

Re: .1

    I concur.  I've never been married and intend only to do it once.
    It makes me very sad to see people get married just for the sake
    of getting married, only to end in divorce.    

Re: .2

    "...it is perfectly normal to life a single life..."  - yes it is,
    but it's terribly empty and unfulfilling - at least for me.  I have
    made many friends and keep mentally and physically active, and yet
    there is a void - it's just not the same simply to have a rich 
    social environment - there is a strong drive to have a partner in
    life.  So maybe you give up some freedom when you get  married, but
    there is something to be said for stability.  I agree that expending
    an enormous amount of energy in the search for a companion is no fun
    - ask any divorced person.  The search should be fun.  Life is fun
    and so marriage should be.  However, something seems to have been
    lost as the standard of living and population density have
    increased.  People seem to be more willing to treat  relationships
    like a supermarket - "if I don't find something I'm completely
    satisfied with, I'll just return it and keep on looking."

    BTW, what does IMO stand for?  

Re: .4
    I was merely stating one possible theory/model that applies to
    particular circumstances.  A model in which a very small number
    of bees visited as many flowers as possible would tend to favor 
    greater numbers - the "shotgun approach."  As population increases
    a little more, it would be more advantageous to stick with one
    partner as competition increased.  As population increases to
    the point where the environment has a tough time sustaining the
    number of people, there SEEMS to be a tendency for people not
    to stay together - part of the reason might be attributable to
    forces aimed at reducing population density.  Your remark about
    the "_choice_" factor hits the nail right on the head - people
    seem to be UNABLE to make a choice when presented with a
    superabundance of choices - and this seems to be true with our
    customers as well, but that's another story.  By the way, I didn't
    say there was anything instinctive about it - man has ZERO instinct,
    only drives and intellect.  
                                                 
Re: .5

    YES, YES, YES! That's exactly what I'm saying (the first paragraph
    anyway)!!!!  Would that I could...


Re: .7

    There is some truth to this, in that we should not expect to have
    our every whim, need, and want fulfilled by one person - it's unfair
    and unrealistic.  However, I personally believe in absolute physical
    and emotional fidelity - I know, I'm a hopeless romantic - but then
    that's just me.


                                                        Michael
    

     Re: .8

	  Why would you wonder about Jody's marital status?  If you are
     actually interested in it, you might consider asking her, or looking
     up her introduction note (3.218).  But just posting your wonderment
     looks suspiciously like an attempt to divert attention from Jody's
     thoughts, to how she could think them -- a move which is most often
     seen as a prelude to valuing a thought based on who has it, rather
     than what it is.

	  Your comment makes me wonder why you would make it.

				 Brian Hetrick

RE: .10s reply to .8 makes me wonder why .10 would wonder. %^)

Just counldn't resist a flip response hope nobody takes me seriously.

    I am currently unwedded.  Would the method by which I arrived at my
    conclusions (watching the media, looking in stores, working at a
    daycare center for 8 years and seeing how the children played and what
    they played with, and being with people who are pressured into
    marriage) make a difference in their validity as opinions?
    
    -Jody

    Hi,
    
    My name is John. I sorry about the short blurb. I've been married for
    10 years and I was just wondering if you were because you mention
    widening our current definitions of marriage. I think that might be
    hard for some of us old timers. How could a marriage be changed after
    such a long time.
    
    
    Be easy on me I'm new at this.

    I don't think she means a particular marriage but rather the concept of 
    marriage itself... currently "Marriage" is seen as a man and a woman 
    bonded together.  Anything else is considered "different, wierd, or 
    unrealistic"  For example a gay marriage is still not considered a 
    legal marriage.  
    
    Skip

IMHO

I am closer to fifty than twenty. I as married for a dozen years, devorced
for more than 16 years. My advise for those who are contimplating marriage
is simple. If you have a relationship that you wish to extend to include
marriage then when you are married do NOT change things because you are 
married. For some fool reason people stop (or start) doing things they
weren't doing before "because they are married". I think this is dumb! If
they are right and comfortable you could have been doing them all the time.
If you weren't then why start now? 

My second thought on marriage is that the reasons for marriage as I see them
today are so much different than I saw them twenty five odd years ago it
seems clear to me that had I remained married the relationship sh/would have
gone through much change. In retrospect I see marriage as much more dynamic
than before. It appears to me that to be successfu

    Hmmmm guess his ex caught up with him??????
    
    Skip

    re: .14
    
    that's exactly what I meant.  yes, marriage can be a growing and
    changing thing, but what I was referring to was people in general
    accepting new and different forms of marriage-relationships that their
    family, friends, and associates may be in.
    
    -Jody
    

RE .15

To finish the thought.

I think that success lies in developing a willingness to a process not expect
that once married you are there. Things change. You (jointly and single-ly)
learn things and once you learn them you probably can use that information
to correct your course and change your direction in responce to that new
infromation.

RE .16

No Skip you're wrong it wasn't my ex (former bride as I am wont to say) it
was the wonders of electronics that cut me off in mid thought. %^) But I
do admire your wit!

    Yes, society does seem to program us for marriage, or some style of
    coupling.  Our's may be the first generation to make a significant
    questioning of it, and demonstration that there is little necessity to
    do so, hence we may feel some resistance to what we are doing.  I said
    "little necessity" because there is some need to couple in order to
    propagate the species.

    As for the the energy spent trying to achieve this coupling, you can
    decide to stop spending it, as I did a number of months ago.  But, you
    may find yourself questioning your decision often and continuing to
    wish for the `rewards' of the quest.  You may also feel that it isn't
    worth the energy spent for a goal that you can not be certain that you
    will reach.  Yet, no matter how much you continue with the resolve not
    to `waste' any more energy, you may have a sense of incompleteness.
    
    Rich

Isn't it surprising to have to wait to reply 19 to get one of the only valid
reason "to propagate the species". If marriage was created it is probably 
because it takes many years for a human being to be .... a human being; and
because this process requires both a female AND a male coaching to produce a
well balanced "product" ;-).

 It is one of the modern heresy to believe that Education can be provided by
school or public institutions, only parents can do so. It is because of this 
necessity and because they knew the difficulties of living together for long 
time that our ancestors have instituted marriage, to create social pressure on 
the parents to force them to do their duty. 

 This was one of my reason for marriage but there may be another one.
  If we consider that a "complete" human being is the conjunction of a male
and a female entity like the two pieces of a puzzle it give another dimension
to marriage, it simply means that we will never be a complete human being untill
we find the second half of the puzzle! It is also a mean to share or rather
to approach an unknown world, what do I know from the world of the females??
How do they feel? How is it to have a body like theirs? And they have the same 
questions (Don't they ;-)) Only trought long companionship may I have a small
chance to approach this foreign world. In this respect marriage can be seen as 
an answer to curiosity.

  I leave to folklore the religious aspect of the marriage, not that it is not
important, but it is treated so differently by the various religions that it
makes it impossible to analyse this aspect in a global concept.

Jacques

    A thought provoking topic...

    I am going to take a different tack and say that we are NOT "programmed for
    marriage", and furthermore, if there is a program involved then it is 
    faulty (evidenced by the divorce rate).  The process of mating seems to be
    serendipitous at best.  Where does one go to learn to become a good spouse?
    School?  Church?  The home?  I would say that it is the marriage itself 
    which proves to be the ultimate testing ground.

.0> Why is it so important to find true, everlasting, mate-for-life love?

    An excellent question...  The "Game of Life" seems to have rules (at least
    in our culture) and one of them is that we have only one spouse (yes, I am
    being traditional) at a time.  I can't really explain this rule except to
    say that in having lived by it for 15+ years it seems to have exposed
    certain benefits (one being that I truly feel that my wife is my 
    "complement").  You speak of "an enormous amount of psychic and physical
    energy in searching for a companion" but don't seem to realize that this
    must go on in order to keep a marriage alive and vibrant.  Can this be one
    of the problems as to why there is so much failure in marriage?  Like 
    everything else, marriage IS work in order for it TO work.  Is there any way
    to make the work easier?  I think attitude is the key where communication is
    the lock...

    I have more questions than answers but wonder if other people who have been
    married a long time (say over 10 or 12 years) feel the same way I do?

    
    
    I disagree with one of the reasons of marriage as to propagate the
    species.  One does not need to be married to do so.  The number of
    children of divorced parents and single parents is rising every day.
    
    50 years ago folks got married because the majority of women were not
    allowed to be in the work force.  At least not enough to force a change
    in the way society views marriage.  Back then, marriage was seen as
    a means of support.  This is not to say that these marriages did not
    happen without love.
    
    Today, most women have the ability to support themselves.  Marriage
    is not looked upon in a very good light considering the divorce rate.
    I know lots of folks my age (26) who do not wish to marry because they
    watched thier parents go through a divorce.  Consequently they were
    raised by two (in most cases only one) single parent.  They know that
    it can be done if they want to have children without being married.
    
    
    Personally, I look at marriage as the merging of two folks into one
    very strong emotional support system.  I don't see it as a means of
    financial support, but if one partner was to loose a job then I would
    take on that financial burden of support.  It is a pooling of resources
    and talents to benifit both partners together and separately.  
    
    Michele

    to .21...
    Yes, I feel like you.  A long marriage needs to be "pampered"
    constantily, a good marriage needs a good dosis of respect, sacrifice,
    good sense of humor, tact, and all those things to make it wonderful,
    if not, it is not wonderful, just average...
    I've been married over 26 years and I'm mighty glad and proud of my
    marriage and my family but it has not been easy... one has to
    constantly compromise, to adapt, to please, to adjust, to the other
    members of the family, of course, each member has to do same, and it
    DOES WORK. One of my best experiences has been to attend a dinner-dance
    for New Years Eve and it included most of my best friends and my whole
    family, including my 17 year old boy... he was a bit stiff when he took
    me to the dance floor, but after a while he enjoyed it tremendously,
    danced with everybody, including many girls his age or slighter older
    than he and... he even tried to bend me backwards in an imitation tango
    .... we were dancing so happily that when we returned to the table my
    oldest daughter had "glassy" eyes... she was so proud of her brother
    and Mom having a good time! Meanwhile my husband was dancing
    rock-and-roll with our second daughter from NYC who was spending the
    holidays with us...  This memory of frienship, family, and fun, will be
    with me for a long time... (I should finish by saying that after coming
    home after 2:00 a.m. we continued the party till 5:30 a.m. at which
    time I "let" everybody (included friends staying overnight) to sleep
    for 3 hrs and was making breakfast by 8:30 a.m... and were 8 at the
    table. 
    It was a very nice way to say goodbye to last year and welcome 1991!
    
    In conclusion, life is hard, marriage is very difficult and
    increasingly elusive and we have to work hard at it, BUT IT IS WORTH
    IT! (I am an average person, with average income, but there are times
    that I feel like a millionnaire, and that is not due to money... but to
    the happines that my marriage, family and friends gives me)