Conference quark::human_relations-v1

    p.s.
    
    I have an appointment to take my daughter to EAP the first week in
    January.
    
    I'm also working on some issues of my own -- codependency issues
    stemming from my childhood with an overbearing, critical mother.
    Stopping a lifelong habit of getting into "underfunctioning"
    relationships with "overfunctioning" people (thanks to the book
    The Dance of Intimacy).  I'm just beginning to feel that I'm ME
    (instead of an emotional but withdrawn child) at least 50% of the 
    time (someone recently described me as "poised"!), and feel that 
    this is a critical point for redefining some of the roles in our 
    marriage.  I feel that the personal changes I'm going through
    would eliminate some of the problems our marriage has had, but the
    relationship changes can't all take place if my husband is living 
    elsewhere -- there would be a whole set of other changes.  At the
    same time, I can see he can't go on as he is now.  Today I feel
    mentally as though I have crawled into a cosmic hole and pulled the
    world over the top of me. Numb and isolated, but still able to cry.   

    Paula... a lot of what you discribed suggests that your daughter and 
    her step father have a lot more going on then not meeting eye-to-eye.
    
    Shoplifting...ditching school... forging notes... all suggest she
    wants/needs attention of some kind that she feels she isn't getting.
    
    You need to sit down with her and find out what is BUGGING her... if 
    you can't do it... then go to EAP and find out where to go.  There 
    seems to be a LOT more then just teenage rebellion going on here and 
    you are right that his "solution" isn't going to solve the problem.
    
    His being gone may change her behaior for a while... but as soon as he 
    comes back... it will start again unless you find out what the REAL 
    problem is between them... (that is if it IS between them).
    
    Skip

    Paula,
    
    	There is, as Skip has said, ALLOT OF THINGS you can do to change
    her mode!!! For starters, why not talk to the local police dept about
    showing kids what the inside of a jail looks like! There is a constrive
    program that does exist. Puts the fear of 'God' in her! This can
    put a damper in the shoplifting "campain for kicks".
    
    	As skip has also pointed out she is in need of attention. Sometimes
    we can take the loving family unit for granted. As in the unit doing
    things together, going on outtings and such. I am shure if you look
    deeper into the gang she is running with you may find that they have
    similar problems. 
    
    George

    Paula,
    
    1.      (come on, kids...Paula needs you...there you go, into the
             screen.....pop!   good)   HUGHUGHUGHUGHUGHUGHUGHUGHUG
    
    		HUGHUGHUGHUGHUGHUGHUG
    
    2.	You may seriously want to look into the possibility of substance
       	abuse.  While I understand that that is something that no parent 
    	wants to see, her behavior is almost "casebook".  I am not saying
    	that this is what IS going on, only that there is a good
    	possibility that it MAY be going on.
    
    E Grace
    
    
    P.S.  Lest anyone think that 15 is "too young", let me tell you that I
    know a young woman who had her second anniversary of sobriety 1 month
    after her 15th birthday.

    It sounds like she needs more attention than she is getting and
    she is willing to get negative attention rather than no attention
    at all. From someone who's been there not TOO long ago, try sitting
    her down and telling her how important she is to you and how it
    hurts you to see her taking risks that might end up hurting her.
    Try to show her positive attention....and wait, things will eventually
    get better.

    
    
    >2.	You may seriously want to look into the possibility of substance
    >   abuse.                                                 ^^^^^^^^^ 
        ^^^^^
    
    
    	No, not for yourself!  (*8
    
    E Grace

    E Grace, I forgot to mention this.  Her father is an alcoholic.  Her
    behavior is much like his, but I don't think he ever stole anything.
    I told her I was concerned that she was showing alcoholic behavior
    (she does drink some) but she doesn't understand how being an alcoholic
    can affect your behavior if you're not drunk at the time.  I explained
    that in 9 years I only saw her father drunk 2 or 3 times, but he sure
    made a shambles of his life!  This possibility is one of the things I'm
    worried about.
    
    I did visit the police station on my own, and talked to a police
    sergeant.  From what he said it sounded like stores, police, and
    the judicial system don't take shoplifting any more seriously than
    do the kids who are doing it.  But at least now I know how they deal
    with it.
    
    My daughter and I do some things together, but she is adamant about not
    wanting to do "family" things because they aren't "cool." Or whatever
    they say these days.  We've tried many times to get her to go to movies
    with us, or even watch movies or TV with us at home, but she prefers to
    talk on the phone with friends or watch the TV in her room.  Once in a
    while we all go out to dinner together, or I take my kids, but most of
    the time she refuses to go with me if her brother goes along.  And he's
    younger (an immature 12) so I don't leave him home much. Her only
    interests are being with her friends and shopping (and now shoplifting).
    
    Our initial reaction to this was anger, frustration, and "not while
    you're living under my roof you don't!" I listened to my mother for
    once, and changed my reaction to one of quietly trying to help her
    and let her know I love her and care about her, while pointing out the
    adverse affects she's having on the rest of the family.  She doesn't
    understand how what she does can affect the rest of us - a typical view
    for her age I think. She's hard to reach.  I feel I've created this
    monster by leaving her alone evenings when she was 10 - 12 yrs. old, 
    while I went to college (her brother lived with my mother then, and I
    wasn't married at the time).  She became very good at taking care of 
    herself and coping on her own, and now look at the results! 

    Get some support from friends for yourself, and get some counseling for
    yourself (sounds like you're under some stress....).
    
    Think about family counseling.  think about giving some more attention
    to your daughter, and if that doesn't work, there's a program called
    "tough love" that might.  But try the gentle approach first (please
    stop shy of becoming a doormat - you have to look out for yourself
    too!)..
    
    As for him, maybe HE needs some counseling too - at least to look at
    his options.  It sounds like he's being very inflexible in the
    situation (at least your daughter seems to be wanting to compromise or
    give information).  And even though he's had a heart attack and has
    high blood pressure, his continuing his resentment will not make him
    healthier (and those health problems should not be used as an excuse
    for him to retain his own "status quo" if everyone else is willing to
    change).  Of course he has to think what's best for him, even as you
    need to take care of yourself in the midst of this.
    
    Hugs and prayers
    
    -Jody
    

    
    Your daughter sounds a lot like I was at an age just a little older
    than that.  She thinks she's self-sufficient, in control of her own
    life, doesn't affect anyone by her behavior, etc?
    
    If she were a couple of years older, my suggestion would be to "allow"
    her to move out and see just how self-sufficient and in control of her
    own life she really is.
    
    Unfortunately, at 15, it just ain't possible.  All the other responses
    seems to feel she needs attention.  What I needed was to feel I was a
    worthy person.  I really believed there was something wrong with me. 
    The behavior was a way of making myself feel "important".  I not no
    sense of self-worth.  I was very insecure.
    
    Don't know if it helps....
    

    Hmmm I came in to state that I'd found the conference I'd mentioned...
    but someone beat me to it.
    
    I would like to say that Jodi brought up some good points and made me
    think a bit.
    
    He may consider counseling for another reason too.  One of the
    contributing factors to high blood pressure is stress.  (Something
    my father went through) If he would consider the counseling he may 
    find a way to cope with the stress and do himself some good.  It may 
    also help him to learn how to deal better with the family as it sounds 
    like although he's willing to "support" the group he doesn't want to be
    a part of it.... running is never a solution, especially if he plans to 
    "come back" as he stated.
    
    Skip

>    Most of
>    the time she refuses to go with me if her brother goes along.  And he's
>    younger (an immature 12) so I don't leave him home much.
(...)
>    I feel I've created this
>    monster by leaving her alone evenings when she was 10 - 12 yrs. old, 
>    while I went to college (her brother lived with my mother then, and I
>    wasn't married at the time).  She became very good at taking care of 
>    herself and coping on her own, and now look at the results! 

	Gosh, no wonder she refuses to go with her brother and cries for
	attention.  My guess would be that she feels she only gets diluted
	attention at family things.  Is there any way you could spend some
	time alone with her, perhaps going out to dinner while her brother
	stays home with your husband?  Perhaps what she's crying for isn't
	attention but undivided attention.

	    Sharon

    When I was your daughters age I made her look like an angel!  All the
    same problems you've mentioned except shop-lifting.
    
    My mother began to solve the problem by taking me out *with* one or
    two of my friends.  This showed me she cared not just about me 'cause
    Moms are supposed to, but because I made good choices in my friends.
    
    I came to realize later that my choices weren't so good, but that boost
    of confidence was great.
    
    You must leave your son at home on these things.
    
    
                                     L.J.

    Get some rules going... as long as she lives in your house she has to
    adhere to your rules. (when she has a house of HER OWN she can do as
    she pleases, but not BEFORE).  It is OK to go out, but especify for HOW 
    and WHERE she can be reached in case of emergency or whatever, children
    understand valid reasons when given to them... the father and much
    better, the PARENTS should give gidelines and be together in making
    them work. When a mother opens her heart to a child and explains things
    with love and reason... it's hard not to listen! she may be full of
    mixed feelings, jelousy, and many other things, but I don't think a
    girl, at that age, can be so full of real hate that would prevent her
    from listening and opening up to her mother... it might take a few
    tries, but understanding, love, sound reasoning, and the constant
    concern of both her parents towards her current behavior should do it...
    don't leave her alone, she needs lots of understanding and lots of
    guidance, she's in a difficult age and will outgrow it. Have you tried 
    going shopping with her and try things on? girls love to do that! there
    are lots of things that mother and daughter can do together, and once
    she starts enjoying these things she'll enjoy including more of her
    family...
    I don't know if this will help you, I truly hope so. A hug, Ana
     
    

    Paula...I feel for you, hugs!!  Went through much the same scenario
    with my youngest daughter when she was 15 - 18.  It started in
    Highschool.  She got in with a crowd who was heavily into pot, she
    constantly cut classes/school.  I was a single parent, divorced with
    no support (finacial or emotional) from the ex.  There were times I
    truly believed I wouldn't survive her!  Jodi mentioned "Tough Love",
    Its a great support group.  At any rate, I _did_ survive and so did
    she!  She is now married and the mother of my wonderful little
    grandson.  If you met her today you'd never DREAM that she ever
    could have been the irresponsible, wild teenager she was.  All I
    can say is I've never once regretted the hours I spent talking to her,
    telling her how important, smart, attractive she was, and how much
    I loved her.  I agree that spending exclusive time with her is so
    important, I realize she might not think so, but make the most of any
    time with her, she needs reinforcement and reassurance of your love and
    her worthiness.  Hope things get better for you quickly, I know How
    alone you must feel!
    
    My thoughts are with you, warm hugs...
    
    Carol

Thanks for all the advice and support.  My daughter and I do enjoy going
shopping together every week or two.  She gets support from me, but none
from her real father (who's 99% out of the picture) or from her stepfather.

She's been pretty good the last few days.  What bothers me more right now is
my husband's attitude.  Last evening he called and left a message with my
daughter that he was having dinner with a friend in Denver (we live in 
Colorado Springs).  I didn't get the message so at 8:00 PM I called the friend
because I knew they were going to be working together during the afternoon.
David was there having drinks and dinner.  I told him the road conditions
due to the snow, and he decided to spend the night up there.  I sort of broke
down on the phone. I haven't heard from him yet today - usually he calls in
the morning before I go to work.  Oh well.  Looks like the message is pretty
clear.

While lying awake last night I realized not once has he expressed concern for
my feelings thru all this.

P.

    Gee, I am sorry... It seems that the lack of interest from both, his
    real Dad and his step Dad is not helping her... at all to both, her and
    you. You do need his support as much as you need your daughter's
    understanding and cooperation.  Tell him the way you feel... you need
    HIS support, isn't he your husband? Isn't he supposed to go with you
    through good AND bad times together? It is not fair when a person takes
    only the good things that comes his/her way and recoils at the sight of
    anything that's not good or easy... I believe he has a responsibility
    to you and to your daughter... but of course, that is my own opinion...
    
    Keep up your strength and cheers! Ana
    

    I agree with Ana, seems like hes' copping out on you when you need him
    most...tell him how you feel, and that you need his support and love
    through these difficulties.  His handling of the situation is adding
    another stress load on you and increasing hurt you're already feeling.
    If he can't be there for you, reach out to close friend, or join a
    support group...you need to think of yourself too...wish there was
    something concrete I could do to help...if you need an ear, feel free
    to call me, or send mail...take it easy on yourself...
    
    Carol
    

    Paula,
    
    It sounds like your daughter is rebelling in some way, like she wants
    attention. I have not read all replies but does she and your husband
    get along? Did she love her natural father? If so those are grounds for
    a rebellious teen. If she really loves her parents and all of a sudden
    the marriage ends up in divorce, at 15 years old when a kid knows more,
    it is a scary thing for them to go through.  Just be gentile with her
    and try to talk things out, if all else fails take her to counseling.
    Good luck.
    
    
    Lynne

    It is also known to happen between people with close intimate
    connection that one can occasionally act out the repressed feelings 
    of the other.  In this case, perhaps an underlying tension that exists
    between you and your current husband that your daughter in her own
    sensitivity and connection to you, is aware of and acting out for you.
    
    I also speak from experience.  Amongst other reasons for my wild ways
    as a teenager, was this very thing I speak about above which was going
    on for me.  There was *much* tension between my parents.  And I
    reflected it in my behavior in my own desperate attempt to cope with 
    the pain of what I felt.
    
    Kindest regards Paula,
    Karen
    

    re .18
    
    Lynne,
    I think she thinks her natural father is a jerk, because he has been
    pretty much out of the picture altogether since we were divorced when
    my daughter was 6 years old.  No financial support; almost no letters
    or phone calls.  Sometimes no contact even for Christmas or birthdays.
    
    She and my husband don't get along very well, unless he puts a lot of
    effort into it.  Which is difficult for him because she has a different
    set of values from his and mine.  I accept her right to be different
    (within some wide limits); he doesn't.
    
    Yesterday she got caught shoplifting, so maybe that will deter her in
    the future.  I'm hoping the legal system will intimidate her.  We'll
    see.  Hubby is still debating whether to move out.  I'm ready to take
    an earlier suggestion and "consider substance abuse" ;-).
    
    By the way, it's *beautiful* here today.  Everything is covered with
    snow, even most of the streets, so all is white, the sky is blue and
    the sun is out.  The mountains are blanketed.  And the snow isn't
    turning to mush because it was 21 below zero this morning and not
    warming up much.  I may be going numb inside, but as long as I can
    appreciate the beauty of simple things around me I'm not too far gone.
    
    Merry Christmas to you all!  I appreciate the support I've gotten in
    this conference -- it's like a second home, or a haven sometimes.  It
    just feels good to be here.  Have a good holiday!
    
    Paula

My husband moved out Dec. 30.  

Christmas day he had chest pains.  I took him to the hospital, where they kept 
him overnight for observation and tests.  From his description it sounded like 
a heart problem, but the doctors said it was chest wall pain and gave him some 
percodan. He was unresponsive to any feelings and emotions
I showed him from the time I took him in.  He came home and slept for 2 days,
didn't talk much to me when he was awake, and pretty much behaved as though I
didn't exist.  

Saturday we were taking the dogs for their annual shots and I said "you look
unhappy." Then he said he decided to move out. When I asked if he wanted a
divorce, he said he was interested in working on the marriage if I didn't want 
to end it, but if I wanted to end it he'd understand. To me, that means he's
primarily concerned with moving out and whether the marriage can survive that
is secondary.

The day after he moved out, he came home and asked me on what sounded like a
date.  I felt befuddled and eventually got angry that he just came waltzing
into the house he had just moved out of, and asked me out for the following 
day.  I said "it's not exactly like you came to me and said 'I really love you
and want the marriage to work but I need to get out of here for a while; can
you work with me on this,' you just told me you decided to move out."  He said
"that's what I *should* have done."  

Now he's planning on going to counseling on his own, and is interested
in going to Stepfamilies Ass'n of America meetings.  He says he still wants to
move back in after a while, but can't stand to even talk about my daughter.
I'm not sure I know what I want anymore.  Time will tell, I guess. 

    At least he is showing a desire to understand his own problem by
    seeking counseling and going to the SPOA meetings.  So maybe these are 
    things you should focus on.  
    
    Then again, as you said, time will tell.  Wait and see what developes.
    
    IMHO I think you did the right thing in handling his waltzing in
    through the door and asking you out.
    
    

    Age 15 - 18 can be very hard for teenagers. You keep looking for
    solutions and there just isn't any. Time I think is the only way for
    this to pass. I would suggest the Tough Love support group. Let your
    husband work through this his own way. He has his choices too. He may
    come around and join the support group with you. As for your daughter I
    think you should try "letting go and let God." She is not going to
    listen. She might get worse before she gets better. Let her be
    resonsible for her own actions. If she shoplifts...she pays a price. If
    she ends up in the courts. So be it. You cannot let it distroy you and
    your life. That is why I say "get HELP for yourself" You will find out
    that you are not the only parent that is going through this. You will
    find ways of changing your behavior that will help your daughter. Tough
    love is one of those ways. I have a daughter 16 and a son 15. It is
    getting better now but last year I was in the support group Tough love.
    If you want to you can send mail. Again...try to detach from your
    husbands way of sorting this out and try to detach from your daughter
    for now. Focus on getting YOUR balance. Get some help and support from
    other parents. Then maybe you can take the bull by the horns...
    I wish I could give you and easier solution but I still think Time is
    the only one...
    kc