Conference quark::human_relations-v1

    
    oh....the reason that we don't go out there is 1)plane fare for all of
    us is too high--I check every chance I get. 2)driving takes @3 days,
    and 6 days driving time eats up vacation time pretty quickly. 3) I want
    them to see what *I* have accomplished in life. 
    I want my Dad (especially my dad...maybe it's that father/daughter
    relationship thing!) to see MY house, and MY town and MY street and
    MY work.....stupid.....but I want him to see that I've grown up and
    done ok.  I've never even cooked hi a meal.....not in my whole life...
    and he won't be around forever...
    
    well....I DOOOO get carried away with it all....I have this DUMB tape
    that I keeo torturing myself with......A Family Christmas....tears me
    up....but with Christmas coming, It's bothering me more than it ever
    has. 
    
    cathy

    If no one is will to talk right now, it might be too late one of these days
    to say what you wanted to say.
    
    Have you seen the movie "Home Alone" yet? (It just came out in the
    theaters).  There's a scene about a man who hadn't talked to his
    son in two years and everyone is afraid to call each other.  Maybe
    you should call.  I don't consider that "giving in"...I think of that
    as realizing that caring is more important than pride.  I would suppose
    that your parents miss their grandkids.
    
    I just got back from Toronto where I saw my last living grandparent.
    I hadn't seen her in four years and we can't really talk (she speaks
    only Chinese and I don't), but it felt good.  I don't know if it was
    the last time I'll ever see her alive so it meant something.  I was
    glad I made the effort to go up there.
    
    I wish you well regardless of what you decide to do.
    
    Le Chinois Fou

    
    A close friend of mine went through the same thing a few years back.
    
    It turned out that his parents had raised 6 kids for most of their
    lives and were quite simply tired of seeing them.  They too got the
    assorted excuses until his sister finally cornered them on it.
    
    They said that they had devoted almost all of their lives to their
    children and wanted to spend the last years with each other.  This
    may seem selfish, but I can understand it. 
    
    Needless to say this hurt my friend a lot.  It hurt everyone.  Then 
    he decided that he either had to understand their point of view and
    visit them on their terms or not see them at all.  
    
    To my knowledge he still visits his parents once a year: as do two
    of his siblings.  The others wrote them off.
    
    This may not be the reason at all...just something to think on.
    
    
                                      L.J.
    

    perhaps they are scared of flying?
    --just wondering,
    Becca

    You could always buy then a round trip tickets for Christmas,
    if you buy it early enough, and give them plenty of time, they
    probably won't want to waste the money and come, and it won't cost you
    as much as your whole family going there...
    
    g

    
    I asked my Dad what he'd do if I sent them tickets to come out. He said
    he'd tear them up so don't waste my money. 
    
    Last Christmas he PROMISED he'd come out in the summer. So when summer
    rolled around I called and asked when they were coming out so I could
    plan vacatation. He said "now don't start that again". Needless to say, 
    he made the promise to shut me up. That hurt alot too. 
    
    I thought about the possibility of fear of flying. But my Mom has flown
    to California to visit a friend, to Nova Scotia to visit an aunt many
    times. I can't speak for my Dad, but I did tell them they could take a
    train. Or that my (other) brother could drive them out when he and his
    wife were out there. Nope. 
    
    One time on the phone I even broke down and let em know how it felt to
    NOT have my parents at my wedding, which was in Newfoundland, not too
    far away, when my Husbands parents flew in from Iowa...I told them how
    much it hurts to have friends look at my wedding pictures and ask if
    those were my parents and I can't even remember the names of the people
    who stood up with me! And it hurts when the kids ask "why do Granny and
    Papa hate you".........
    
    Two months ago I called home and found out that my Mom had been rushed
    to the hospital for gall bladder surgery. She was in for a week and I
    only found out when I called home to say hi, and my dad said that my
    mom was asleep cause she was very tired after getting out of the
    hospital. I told them that I'd have to get a subsctiption to the local
    newspaper so that I'd know when one of them died.....
    
    What's wierd, is that 12 years ago, we parted on friendly terms. We
    were always close. They tell me how each other misses us so much and
    gets 'all choked up' when they see pictures of the kids.....
    
    When I told my dad that my daughter asked what Granny looks like, he
    said "I'll send a picture"...
    maybe they ARE tired of kids. But it's been 15 years since I moved out. 
    and 10 for the youngest. My kids are their ONLY grandkids.
    
    So...I told 'em that I was gonna go to 'rent a granny' and bring home
    some stand in grandparents so my kids could have some like all the
    other kids do!......
    Oh well....
     

    Give up.  They clearly don't want to come and visit.
    The pain you feel is caused by your expectations,
    and the importance you attach to the idea of a visit,
    not by their actual absence and reluctance to visit.  
    
    So you don't have perfect parents, and your kids don't
    have perfect grandparents.  That's life.  If you let
    the kids and the grandparents have as close and relaxed
    a relationship as both are happy with, then you've done
    a good job.
    
    Asking people for more attention or love than they want
    to give guarantees you'll get less of either than you
    would if you hadn't asked.
    
    One idea you might try for your kids, if they are old
    enough: send the children out to visit, one at a time,
    either at Christmas or during a vacation.  Your parents
    might be willing to put up with one visiting child for
    a few days, even if they aren't willing to visit a whole
    crowd.
    			-John Bishop

    
    -2 
    My parents have said that they would love to have the kids out for the
    summer. But they are too young to fly out of the country alone, and I
    would have to fly 4 times to take them out, and pick them back up at
    the end of the summer.  I tend to agree with you. Give it up.  You
    can't force someone to want to visit you.  But I don't think that
    that's the problem. My dad still gets choked up on the phone and calls
    me kitten (ok so it's a dad kinda pet name!) and says he misses me
    lots......
    
    -1 
    
    Hi Gene. Nothing to hold a grudge about that I know of.  We were very
    close when I got married. 
    
    See, I think I know what the problem is....I just know how to get
    around it, if I should try, if I should not take it personally, if I
    should give it up and stop feeling hurt by it. 
    
    I have NEVER in my entire life, eaten at someone elses house with my 
    parents (family while growing up). We NEVER went anywhere all together.
    Never had Christmas or Thanksgiving dinner with grandparents, never ate
    at a friends or relatives house, never went to a restaurant, never even
    ever went out shopping all together....not a picnic or baseball game or
    amusement park. Not for a drive or to church.....only one of them ever
    came to a school play I was in or parents teachers conference. 
    My parents just DON'T DO THAT KIND OF THING. They don't go out. They
    don't socialize. They STAY HOME or go somewhere one at a time (like
    my mom visiting my aunt).
    Ok so that's all well and fine. But you'd have to tie me up in a chair
    to stop me from visiting my grandkids (not that I have any yet!) 
    They are just plain damned stubborn...homebodies like you have never
    seen. And in this day and age when other people my age talk about their
    80 year old parents buying Winnebagos or moving to Florida, it hurts
    like hell that they are too "old" to visit their own family. That's
    what my mom used on me once (10 years ago)....they were too old.  
    
    Yep, you're right. Face it. They are alllame excuses. But if they won't
    tell me a good reason, I just keep wishing that I could say the magic
    word to have them come out and have Christmas with us.  I think part of
    me worries that this might be their last chance, and the kids never
    will see them. ANd I just plain miss em alot....especially at this time
    of the year. Christmas was always so special at our house......
    
     

    I can relate somewhat to what you're going through.  My parents are
    divorced, and my father is very much like you've described your
    parents.  We had many years where we did not even so much as call each
    other on the phone.  And since he lived in Colorado, and I lived in
    California, I rarely saw him unless I had a business trip in the area. 
    Now that I live in Colorado also, I see him even less.  
    
    But what I have had to learn is that he is my father, and he is also
    his own person.  He is entitled to do as he wishes.  I do my best to
    not put any expectations on him.  Such as he's my father, so he should
    want to see me all the time.  Well, he doesn't.  And he doesn't have
    to.  Our relationship has greatly improved over the years since I no
    longer (most of the time) expect him to perform as a model father.  
    
    We were talking on the phone recently and we shared a little insight
    into each other.  My father feels that since I am an adult, he need not
    be involved in my life anymore.  He also is not very big on family.  He
    grew up an only child whose father died when he was 14, and whose
    mother died when he was 24.  So he's not used to it.  Whereas I'm used
    to my mother's side of the family which is very large and close.  So we
    compromise now.  For example, I'm going to visit him over Thanksgiving, but
    for Christmas we're on our own (realize he only lives 45 minutes away from
    me now).
    
    Yes, I do get upset about his "lack of interest" now and then.  But I
    realize he's just being the person HE is.  It's no reflection on his
    love for me.  
    
    I'd suggest trying to back off on your expectations of your parents. 
    When I did, I found out the reasons behind my fathers actions, and we
    also greatly improved our relationship.  And - most importantly - we
    compromised, so we both came out ahead. 
    
    We both love each other, but each in our own way!

    You could tell them they are setting a bad "bed" bed for them to sleep
    on... What would happen when one of them dies and the other is left
    alone?  Would they take your sturborn refusal to visit him/her well?
    Nature does not forgive, and by laws of nature they will NEED you
    sooner than you NEED them...
    I would not insist so much in a forced visit. I would let them know the
    way I FEEL and then will let them choose by themselves, and whatever
    solution would fall on THEIR shoulders alone.
    
    When I married I left my parents and went to live 10,000 limes away, in
    another country, my parents WENT to visit us (me and my family) to
    different countries where we lived and my father did come to the U.S.
    to spend 2 months with me after the death of my mother... but I always
    made the upmost efforts to visit them ONCE A YEAR, regardles of where
    we live and of how much it might cost... I save like crazy, just to go
    and spend a week or two with them...  
    
    I've gone to Spain to visit for just 5 days, (+ 2 days for travel, 1
    week total) on three occasions.  I already have planned my next trip
    which will be in Sept... Father always says that... he sees more of me
    than of my brother, who lives in the same town! this bond, after 26
    years, is pretty strong... I think that Father, at 87, looks forward to
    each one of my visits and that, in a way, is keeping him alive...
    Let's hope he'll be around for many more of my visits!
    

    I'm not going to read the replies. It's easier without having read
    them......
    
    I can understand that you'd be hurting. There is probably another
    reason why thet don't come, that they won't tell you, or perhaps they
    don't even realize. My thought is, write them a letter and tell them
    EVERY BIT of these feelings. Don't make it an angry letter. Just be
    very open, and tell them how much it hurts. This is going to put the
    ball in their court, and it will force them to set their priorities.
    What they say (or don't say) may very well tell you how they feel. I 
    don't think you can spend your life begging them to come.  If that
    doesn't do any good, than it seems like the relationship might be kind
    of one-sided...................
    
    Maybe you've already tried that, I hope, but.................
    
    ....Bob

    
    thanks alot for all of your replies.  Someone did make an interesting
    point in that their father didn't really understand 'family'. (I think
    I got that right.!)  My Dad's dad died when my Dad was 10 years old. 
    He only had a younger sister. My Mom on the other hand had 10 brothers
    and sisters who all hate each other! So maybe I'm still living with a
    Brady Bunch mentality! Maybe that not ALL families have the big family
    reunions and get togethers and grandchildren sitting on Granpas lap
    getting told stories and Gramma making cookies (my mom has never made
    a cookie in her life)....I think that part of me wants tht fantasy
    family thing to happen.....but it can't. Not with my REAL LIFE
    family...so maybe I WILL go to Rent a Granny and see what they can
    dig up for me!!!!!!!
    
    Wanted: Old Smiling Cookie Making Lady to share Christmas with the
    Brady Bunch...... :-)
    

    Cathy,
    
    My father is a lot like that, too.  My parents have lived separately
    for most of the past 20 years.  My father stayed in upstate NY, and
    my mother has lived in South Carolina, Florida (twice), California,
    Oklahoma, Colorado, and New Mexico.  They're both in their early 70's
    and in good health.  Though my mother travels to visit my children and
    me, and my brother, my father hasn't visited me since about 10 years ago 
    when my mother lived near us in Oklahoma.  She's the one who always got
    him to visit.  He's never visited us in Colorado, though I've asked him
    several times.  He can easily afford it - either by car, train, or
    plane.  I don't think he's afraid to fly.  He just doesn't want to come
    and visit.  He makes feeble excuses sometimes, other times he doesn't
    bother.  (He doesn't want to leave the dog; doesn't want to bring the
    dog in the car, etc.)  My mother says he just never wants to leave
    home.  His circle of friends and family are all within about an hour's
    drive, and he never goes outside that radius.  My mother's parents are
    the same way (but they have an excuse -- they're 91 years old!).
    
    Fortunately it doesn't (outwardly) bother me as much as it does you - I
    guess I'm used to a lack of interest from my father, and prefer it to
    the nothing-but-criticism from my mother.  Though during my childhood,
    we had the things you mentioned - going out to dinner together, having
    big Christmas and Thanksgiving dinners at Grandma's house, dinner all
    together at home every evening. It was like we went through the motions
    of the close-knit family, without any of the genuine feeling.  It
    leaves a pretty hollow feeling when you begin to approach 40.  I just
    accept my father's disinterest because that's the way it's always been.
    (And neither of my parents came out for my second marriage, but my
    brother and his wife flew out from California.)
    
    For you, it sounds like your parents used to be closer to you.  Have
    they really changed, or are you looking for something you never had?
    It sure is difficult to accept parents who don't give us the love we
    want in the way we want it!
    
    Just my rambling thoughts,
    Paula

    
    thanks Paula. ..what you said really hit home. I guess I really do want
    something that I never had.....guess I want that close knit
    "all-american" type family thing now before it's too late...maybe it's
    because I see time running out on my chances that it's been getting
    to me so deeply lately. 
    
    I guess it's not unlike any other situation when you want someone to
    love you more than anything, but no amount of begging or crying or
    demanding will get it. Oh, for the good ole days when you could care
    less what your parents thought!!
    
    cathy
    

    This is a familiar scenario in my SO's life.  His parents moved 250
    miles away from the rest of the family (there are 8 'kids') about 5
    years ago, because they were sick of the ratrace, and have probably
    come up this way about 3 times since.  Our baby daughter (their 2nd
    grandchild in 10 years) was 3 months old before they saw her, and
    then we had to take her to them!  Their 3rd grandchild was born in
    September, and they haven't seen her yet either.  I must admit it
    seems to be very strange behaviour, given the fact that they were
    a very traditional family; despite lack of money they'd always go
    out somewhere nice with the kids every Sunday, and Christmas and
    Birthdays were a real big thing.  It almost seems as if they've
    switched off, and want to live in their own little world now, just 
    for each other.  I must say that when we go down to them, they
    couldn't be more accommodating; so I think maybe it's a question of
    'territory' as a previous noter said.  On the subject of excuses not
    to come up, it's a family joke; "The cat's hurt his toe and we've got
    to keep taking him to the vet" (honest!), "The dog keeps being sick"
    there are others but I can't think of them at the moment.  This
    Christmas I don't think anyone's going down there for various reasons;
    I should think it is rather lonely spending Christmas in your own
    little world!!
    
    
     
    

    cathy, I think your idea of finding substitute grandparents nearby is
    the best one.  My parents and I get along all right, we visit them
    every few years, or they come to us (and I really empathize with your
    desire to show them your accomplishments - I don't know what I've
    enjoyed more than their first visit after we bought our house).
    
    My husband's parents divorced when he and his sister were quite young. 
    Both parents remarried and both had large second families.  My husband
    and his sister have been left out ever since (cruel stepfather and
    all).  My husband seems to have accepted this, with sort of a "who
    cares?" attitude.  His sister (46 years old) is still devastated, still
    complains constantly about being left out, talks of forcing her mom and
    dad to take more interest in her and her offspring...  I think it's sad
    that she has so focused her energies and expectations on an impossible
    goal, but it's her life (I think she herself has lost track of that
    though).  I think it's sad that my husband's reaction of distance and
    uncaring has cut him off from a lot (even within our own marriage and
    his relationships with his children) but again, it's his life.
    
    I have some very dear friends and, over the years, have grown very
    close not only to them but to the wife's parents as well.  They have 
    stood as surrogate grandparents to our children, particularly our 
    youngest who has had (medically) a rough time at intervals throughout 
    her life.  They call, send little notes, small gifts, lots of love!  
    I'm grateful to them, and love them dearly.  
    
    I remember the last time my youngest had to go in for surgery.  She 
    (and I) stayed at Mass General Hospital for about 3 weeks.  My mother
    asked if I wanted her to come out, but was very hesitant to do so,
    feeling that her health would be endangered.  Fine by me!  My husband
    took care of the older children while I stayed in the hospital with
    Rebecca.  Our dearly loved friends visited her, bringing little treats
    and story books.  We had Thanksgiving at their home that year; poor
    Becca was just out of the hospital and still quite pale and weak and I
    feel that the loving interest and care they lavished on her and all of
    us played no small part in her excellent recovery.
    
    My only son has suffered from addictions for some time.  No matter how
    bad things get (and they've gotten bad!) these loving grandparents (who
    have 5 children, 8 - and 1 on the way - grandchildren, and 6
    great-grandchildren - so far!) have kept, as June herself said to me
    yesterday, a special place in their hearts for him, sorrowing over his
    problems and rejoicing in his successes!
    
    We usually have them (and as many of their relations as we can snag) in
    our home for Thanksgiving, and join them in their home on Christmas
    Eve.  I love them dearly, and am very grateful for their love and
    interest, and hope we have many years left to celebrate loving ties
    together.
    
    Funny, a few minutes ago I realized that I forgot to call my folks
    yesterday.
    
    aq
     

Cathy,

You sure have my sympathy. Frustrating. Puzzling.

Anyway, here's my take. Ask them to come for a *weekend*.

Have them fly in Friday night or early Saturday morning, and leave
Sunday night.  Quick?  You bet.  See, I wonder if your parents
are like me?  The idea of staying in some else's home (except 
my birth home) for more than three days makes me want to lay 
down and weep.  It is totally draining for me. The last time 
I did it (five-days in my very wonderful sis-in-law's home, 
against my druthers), I ended up in the hospital. 

I can handle a few days, but a longer visit depresses
the hell out of me.  I could take the Holiday Inn for three weeks;
it's the Someone Else's Home that does me in.  I have ten
brothers and sisters, and I could only stay comfortably with
one of them for more than two days. Friends that I've corresponded
with for 25 years ... can't stay long with them eitherr.)

If they will not come for the weekend, I think it would be 
worth it to go in debt. For the kids. Let them have a good visit 
with their grandparents, while you are there with them. 
I'm a miser and a scrooge who frowns on borrowing. But
this time ... go ahead.  Or better yet!!! Ask THEM for the
money!  Yes!

They won't see your life, but the kids will get to see
grandparents.  That's important for them.

>    well....I DOOOO get carried away with it all....I have this DUMB tape
>    that I keeo torturing myself with......A Family Christmas....

Noter Elwell, I believe, said something about "there may be a reason
they don't want to give."  It's a possibility.  An aunt of mine, who
was quite cogent, went thru a lot to prevent the family knowing she
has become incontinent.  

And you are not alone.  My grandfather died when I was 10.  I had 
seen him once, at my sister's wedding when I was 6 or 7. Only 
years later did I discover that he lived about 2 miles from us. My 
father visited him nearly every Sunday, and grandfather was still active,
going to union meetings and talking long walks.  But he did not enter
our house from 193x until he died in 1955. Someone said he didn't
like kids.  No one ever said he didn't like my mother.  Who knows?
Whatever the reason, it has been buried with the older generation.

But I wish I'd had the opportunity to talk to him at least once.

Best of luck with this. Meigs

    
    I haven't read the rest of this string, but my 2c....
    
    I feel for you. I don't think you're just playing yourself a "pain
    tape" - I feel that you have valid reasons for feeling hurt, confused
    and upset.
    And you've been feeling that way for quite long enough.
    Confrontation is in order.
    
    (A quick aside - confrontation is not necessarily a bad thing, nor does
    it have to mean arguments and bitterness. And it can clear up a whole
    load of things)
    
    Sooo, my thoughts are these.
    Go and see your folks, on your own.
    Sit down with both of them, and tell them how you feel.
    Phrase it in a "when you do that, I feel this" sort of way. Don't
    accuse them of anything - just explain how *you* feel, and how much
    you'd like to have them share in your life. If you can, explain that
    you know they won't be around for ever and that you know you'll miss
    having not cooked for them etc.
    
    Just be completely honest. Cry if you need to.
    
    Then listen to what they have to say. The reasons for their not
    visiting may be painful for you to hear, but at least you'll *know*.
    
    By the end of this, if you decide to let go of your relationship with
    them you'll know that you've truly given it your best shot from the
    heart.
    
    Btw, another good movie that touches on this - "Field of Dreams"...
    
    Good luck in whatever course you take,
    'gail
    
    
    
    
    

    
    another thought on the subject.....(ok so sometimes I think I'm
    temporarily losing my mind!)
    
    I called my mom to wish her a happy birthday on Friday. She was out so
    my dad answered. We talked for about two minutes....he said to call
    back later when mom would be back home. When I said goodbye, I also
    said "I love you"...he said " right..bye"....
    
    ok so I was in a particularily lonely mood at the time...I sat down
    and started crying and all that I could think to myself was "I want
    my Daddy"..............
    I realized that after all of these years, I still need their approval
    and some kind of sign of affection....something that I can believe...
    
    Anyhow, when I called back later, Mom was still out, and Dad and I went
    through the "I love you" "ok, bye" thing again.....
    
    IS IT ME??????????????
    
    well...so I've already did the confrontation thing till I was blue in
    the face. I tried being honest, I tried telling them that they will
    never see their grand kids again (ok...harsh, but it wasn't meant as a
    threat....) I tried the guilt trip (Why do I always come last after
    Granny and the dog and Jimmy and the refridgerator?) ... I tried that
    "I miss you so much and will pay your way and kiss your feet"....
    I think as one noter said , it's time to give it up. They will never
    come visit, never. They will probably not call on the kids birthdays
    anymore either (I won't hold my breath waiting for them to call on
    mine!) 
    Maybe I was adopted...
    
    But....hey....I can smile about it....
    at least right this second...sarcasm is always the best cure when you
    don't understand something!!!!
    Honestly though, when I get on the phone and ask Dad where Mom is and
    he says she's gone, I SERIOUSLY have to ask him if he means that she
    died...
    
    cathy
    

    I found out my Dad had cancer via my sister who wrote me a letter. 
    Found out about my Mom's EXTREMELY high blood pressure and subsequent
    round with the doctors and medication also via a letter from same
    sister.  My parent's are extremely non-communicative to the point of
    being secretive of their lives.  That's just the way they are.  After
    close to 40 years I have come to accept it, and deal with it.  They are
    their own people, just as my next door neighbor is, just as my husband
    is, just as ANYBODY is.  Though I am their daughter, I have no lock on
    their lives.  I do not dictate how they behave because tha't the way
    parents are SUPPOSED to behave. 
    
    My parents don't even celebrate Christmas anymore.  No tree, no special
    dinner, no deck the halls.  No present giving.  I might get a card from
    them, with som money for the kids. 
    
    That's just the way they are.  They won't travel to visit.  My Mom WILL
    NOT fly, anywhere.
    
    At some point in our lives I think we have to stop wishing for the
    impossible, and make our own happiness.  Perhaps you should consider
    making your Christmas with your husband and children the happiest you
    can in your own home, with your own friends, and be grateful for that.
    Very few of us out here live a "Brady Bunch" life.  My husband has only
    his father; he hasn't seen his mother in 15 years, though she lives
    only 45 minutes away.  She has never met her grandchildren.  My husband
    prefers it that way.
    
    While I can see the pain in your note, my thoughts are that it's time
    yuo gave up on this issue and move on.  Find some happiness in the fact
    that you do have your parents even if it's only to visit them.  And
    your children do have grandparents, even if they are seen infrequently. 
    
    By the way, the TV commercials and stuff that hits the tube during the
    Season gets to me too.  Makes me feel like my life is inadequate,
    incomplete, paltry by the standards set forth there.  It's Madison Ave.
    setting up the standards by which we compare our lives.  I try to tune
    it out, and make Christmas something special for me and my husband and
    kids.  After all, they are the real things in my life, not Christmas
    with the Brady Bunch, or "Eight Is Enough Christmas Special", huh?
    

    
    
    If I were you I would send a nice, long, heartfelt letter to them
    telling them all the pain that you feel and how the way they're acting
    hurts you inside....I would write the letter from YOUR point of view,
    not condemning them for what they were doing, but rather describing how
    what YOU feel inside when certain things happen.
    
    And then I would leave them alone.
    
    
    (But, of course, you're not me...that's just what I would do).
    
    
    
    
    One thing that I'm really beginning to learn in life is that WE are in
    control of our lives and what we CHOOSE to feel.  We can allow what
    someone does/says to hurt us, or we can choose to have faith in
    ourselves and not allow it.
    
    We have choices in life, and most times we're better off having control
    of our choices instead of allowing someone else to take control of
    them.
    
    kathn
    

    re .20
    
    No, you're OK. I can understand how you feel at times. It's possible to
    get lonely, even in a crowd. You're searching for something, and you
    can't find it, and you feel like you never will.
    
    Not worded well, but at least know you're not alone.......
    
    ....Bob

    
    thanks for the thoughts, Bob. I think you hit it right on the head...
    
    cathy
    

    Cathy,
    
    I haven't read all the replies... so someone may have suggested this...
    A trick I pulled on my grand parents.  They insisted they couldn't 
    come out to visit my father for all the same reasons you gave....
    I purchased round trip airfare tickets a month in advance sent them 
    to em and fixed it with the airlines so they couldn't be returned.
    
    guess who made the flight and had two wonderful weeks at my father's 
    home and now come out once a year to visit with him and the rest of
    our family?  Seems it's the first trip out that's hard on them but 
    if it's presented to them in a way they can't refuse... the next time
    is a lot easier.
    
    Just something you might want to consider... granted you may run the
    risk of purchasing tickets and not having them used... but maybe you 
    can set up something where you alone can turn in the tickets.
    
    Skip

    Cathy,
    
    I understand your frustrations and hurt.  It's so hard to want
    something so badly and to be denied it for seemingly trivial
    reasons.  I had a situation in my life that lasted for about 4
    years that made me so upset I couldn't sleep at night.  I was
    pushing and pushing and pushing for something that my father
    just wasn't ready (or willing) to give me.  There came a point
    that I took a step back and saw what I WAS PUTTING MYSELF through
    and I made the conscious decision to stop.  Put it all behind me
    and go on with my life making the effort to not let this issue
    bother me again.  It made my life much more bearable and vastly
    improved my relationship with my father.  My suggestion to you is
    to make the effort to be happy with what you have around you.
    Certainly you must have some close friends nearby that you can
    celebrate the holidays with.  I live 3,000 miles from my family 
    so we miss out on alot of that "come over Sunday and I'll make
    dinner" stuff, but we have substitutions.  We have some wonderful
    dear friends that have "adopted" us and we all involve each other
    in special (and not so special) occasions.  They're like our second
    family.  Sometimes I do get that pang that you spoke about where you
    really want your parents around to taste this wonderful new dish you
    made, see the new painting you bought for the living room, or whatever.
    As long as you live far away from your family you'll continue to have
    those pangs.  Just don't let them take you over and don't become
    obsessive about them.   Think of all the wonderful things you
    could be spending all this energy on!!
    
    It seems you've tried all the options to get your parents to come
    visit and nothing has worked.  It's time to let it go.  Once you
    get over this frustration and hurt you may be able to see things
    in better perspective.  You may find it easier to make the commitment
    to go see them instead of having them come see your successes.  I
    do understand you wanting them to see what you've done with your
    life....perhaps you can borrow a camcorder and do a video of your
    home, kids, city, friends and send it to them?  My in-laws have made
    it very clear that they will never come visit us (we're in California,
    they're in Massachusetts) because of my mom-in-law's fear of
    earthquakes.  Instead of dwelling on the negative, we take pictures of
    our place, cars, pets, friends, birthday parties, Christmas trees, 
    just about everything and send it to them.  This way they're involved
    in our lives in a way, and they get to see any new things in our lives.
    It's the next best thing to them being here!!! ;^)
    
    Feel free to contact me off-line if you want to.....TORREY::DERY_CH.
    
    Regards,
    Cherie