Conference quark::human_relations-v1

    I think that first you should decide whether you want to spend the 
    rest of your life with your husband.  THEN decide whether you want 
    to have children (you mentioned you fear isolation).  Don't 
    automatically stay with your husband because you want children, 
    are 38, and fear you will be too old to have children by the time 
    you meet someone else.  Women have children in their 40's.
    
    There are lots of people who stay in a marriage for convenience, 
    companionship, etc.  If you do that, will you be happy or will 
    you regret that decision later?  I have an aunt who has been 
    married for 50 years and now deeply regrets her whole life 
    because she didn't leave her husband decades ago.  Now it's too 
    late because she is dependent on him.
    
    Since I don't have children it's hard for me to contribute much 
    to this part of the discussion, but it seems like you have a 
    few options:
    
       . Take your child to children-related activities where you will 
         meet other women
    
       . Join a support group for women with children (if such a 
         thing exists)
    
       . Continue working full or part time
    
       . Take adult education classes in the evening (while your 
         husband babysits) so you can get out, learn something, 
         and be with other people
    
    If you decide to leave your husband, there are plenty of ways to 
    meet men.  For a starter, you could try Digital's SINGLES Notes 
    file.  There also are many singles organizations that sponsor 
    dances and cocktail parties.  If you live in Massachusetts, 
    look in the Calendar Section of the Thursday issue of the 
    Boston Globe.
    
    Good luck.
    
    

    I have an unmarried friend who chose to have a child.  She was 40
    at the time.  She made sure she had maternity insurance, got pregnant,
    and had the child.  She is very happy and fulfilled in her life
    as a mother.  She has also arranged her life in such a way that
    she spends some good quality time with her daughter.  So far, the
    child has had enough love from her mother that she seems to have
    no problem with the fact that her father has no part in her life.
    She is now about 7 years old and excels at whatever she does.
    
    I am adding this to let you know that there *are* other women who
    choose to go this route as single parents.  I am also a single parent
    for different reasons, but am very happy and comfortable with my
    life.  I don't need a man to be happy or successful in raising my
    children.  My happiness and success comes from within.
    
    Best Wishes for a Brighter Future,
        
    Barb

    Re: -1
    
    Could your feelings of rebellion have come more from your father's
    abandonment than the lack of his presence?  Would you have felt the
    same if your mother had decided to have you without getting married?
    
    Re: base note
    
    In this day and age with so many single parents - having children
    without the benefit of matrimony is a viable option for you.  I think
    what you need to look at is whether you are willing to spend the rest
    of your life with this man (sounds like you're having serious doubts). 
    If so, then having children with him sounds fine.  But purposely having
    children in a marriage that is not working for you can only lead to
    bitter disappointment.  Children rarely *save* a marriage.  In most
    cases, they cause a strain on a marriage which takes time, patience,
    and willingness to work through the change in lifestyle.  Are you 
    willing to have children in this marriage when you are already heading 
    for divorce?  
    
    Having children need not isolate you from the world.  It's up to you to
    meet new people and make new friends.
    
    Think about your options, and then act on what is best for YOU!
    
    Sue    

    I think the advice of figuring out if you want to stay in the marriage
    FIRST is the best advice.  I am a single mom, I had my daughter when I
    was twenty two.  The first couple of years can isolate you more unless
    you seek out other mothers of infants.  Mother/infant exercise programs
    are out there but I found most social involvement came after the child
    reaches pre-school or even elementary school.  My child is eleven.  Now
    my friends are having their children and I watch the demands it places
    on their relationship.  Although if planning can mean never, I think it
    is wise to consider your adult relationship.  Later if it gets worse
    your child will sense it.
    
    Although I am crazy about my child and we have a great time palling
    around, it's not easy being a single parent.  I wasn't single when I
    had her.  Although she's happy, there are a lot of things I can't give
    her I wish I could.  Just getting by is tough.  She does understand the
    value of things and that's good but I look around and feel she deserves
    more. Kids start getting real expensive at this age like for instance
    their school science camp has cost $425.00 this year (5th and 6th grade
    camp).  You can't say, "sorry you can't go," while the rest of the class 
    does.  The times we've spent are the greatest time of my life and I
    wouldn't change it for an instant.  But I would also not recommend to
    anyone to become a parent out of wedlock unless you have a job that
    pays a lot and you have a flexible schedule that let's you work at
    home.  You are the mother and the father and yourself.  Unless you have
    a family to help out you are the cook, housekeeper, mechanic, nurse,
    bill payer, errand runner.  This doesn't leave time for yourself for a
    stress break.  But it's amazing how versatile I've learned I am.  As I
    said, Motherhood (parenthood) is unmatched, but there is a reality side
    to it that shouldn't be overlooked for your's and the child's sake.
    
    Good luck.

    There are studies that I have been reading over, for I am trying to
    cope with the future of my devorce and my daughter, that point out that
    both parents are needed very much to seat a good value system in a
    child. THAT IS BOTH PARENTS. Alot of times, after a devorce is
    finalized, either a mom will try to keep an offspring from seeing
    father, or a father will bolt for its too much of a hastle to deal with
    the old wounds. It is tougher than you may think, as pointed out. 70 %
    of all devorced folks with 1 year after the devorce is done, wish they
    had worked harder on making the relationship work.

    If a marriage is seen as totally INDISOLUBLE everybody would work
    harder to make it work... because there is no way out! and who would
    like to go through hard times if they could mend things up? But that is
    not the case these days... it takes little to call a marriage quits and
    and a person is free to start all over again.
    Marriage was meant to be THAT WAY, modern laws changed that and the
    product is a lot of single parent's families, that is a by-product of
    divorce that cannot be avoided.  BOTH PARENTS are needed to set a good
    value system in children as .8 pointed out... and those children would
    no doubt, do their most to keep up those values in their children to
    give them the support and values that they themselves got from their
    parents... and a big change would occur in a couple of generations, I
    am sure we would get a whole bunch of people a lot happier than our
    current statistics say of ourselves...
    It may sound a bit futuristic, or a bit of a dream, but would it be a
    nice thing if we IMPROVE our lives instead of letting it slowly
    degrading and slipping downhill??

    re: .9    
    
    I agree with you that an immediate "Abandon Ship!" approach in marriage
    is wrong, but I wonder how many divorces would have occurred in the
    "old days" if the stigma against single parents wasn't there?
    
    Many people wish that we could return to the good ole days when the
    family unit was still intact, but I'm of the opinion that kids are
    better raised in a loving single-parent situation than a marriage 
    of two people that truly do not love one another.  My advice to
    engaged couples is not to marry on impulse, but to really get to know
    one another first.  Talk about expectations, talk about children, and
    convince one another that each partner is willing to make that
    lifetime commitment.
    
    Getting married with pre-nuptual agreements and the subconscious
    thinking that "Hey, we'll try it, but the first sign of trouble and
    I'm bailing out" is as wrong as someone who remains in an abusive
    marriage because he/she believes marriage is "for life", regardless
    of the suffering.
    
       - Larry

Re: .9

Actually, there is solid evidence of what would happen if marriage was
"totally INDISOLUBLE" - as there was in the past, there would be quite a few
more murders.  Is this a solution?

					Steve

   Actually, life is much complex now that it was in the "olden days."  We
   know much more and we have many, many more choices.  And, with the speed
   offered to us by our technology, we have much higher expectations of
   *everything*.

   We have much higher expectations of marriage and relationships in general
   than we've ever had in our history of being.  One, we aren't meeting
   those expectations for the most part, and two, we're not even aware that
   they exist.  We want our spouses to be our best friends, our (very good)
   lovers, our most effective support system.  We want to be those things in
   return.  This can be accomplished, but only by ownership of who we really
   are.  And so few people are willing to take this risk/responsibility.  It
   is far easier to put one's perceived inadequacies on someone or something
   else, and to make our partner pay for it eventually.  Certainly, with
   this kind of dynamic, very few relationships will ever last.


   							Terza

Re: .12,

>   We have much higher expectations of marriage and relationships in general
>   than we've ever had in our history of being.

Actually, I think we, as a society, now have far lower expectations.
In 'the olden days' ALL marriages were expected to last until death
did the happy couple apart. Today, we nonchalantly accept divorce.

It's not that people divorce because their expectations were not
met; they divorce because they do not expect the relationship to
last. 


>   We want our spouses to be our best friends, our (very good)
>   lovers, our most effective support system.  We want to be those things in
>   return.  This can be accomplished, but only by ownership of who we really
>   are.

This is true, but there is no evidence people didn't always want all 
those things.


>   And so few people are willing to take this risk/responsibility.  It
>   is far easier to put one's perceived inadequacies on someone or something
>   else, and to make our partner pay for it eventually.  Certainly, with
>   this kind of dynamic, very few relationships will ever last.

I disagree, because quite a few people do indeed take this
responsibility and quite a few relationships do last a life time. 

If you accept that for the relationship to last, both partners must
make a commitment and that more than half of marriages do last a
lifetime, then close to 3/4 of the population ARE willing to take
the responsibility and make the commitment.

-- Ron

I take a bit of offense at the assertion that we who are divorced just "gave
up" and didn't try. I was married 15 years and separated for 3 more. There was
a lot of damn trying.

Back in the old days men often had mistresses and the
marriage was a social convienience more than a working partnership. The women
were stuck no matter how awful it was. The ones that didn't die in childbirth
grew old young from many births and hard work. Lots of men had multiple wives
from being widowed.

People didn't used to pick their spouses either. Marriage was a land and family
inheritance function. Not a matter of love. Now we want lovers and friends as
well as life partners. We also live longer which means we may be married longer.
There are many issues. liesl

    There are also different reasons for divorce - not just because
    people are tired of it, or disappointed because they thought they
    could change someone and low and behold the person doesn't change,
    or due to a lack of trying.  Physical abuse, mental abuse, drug
    addictions and trying to deal with them and cope - there's alot
    of reasons why a marriage fails or two people break apart.  I'm
    not saying that every marriage that fails is because of the above
    mentioned - there are a number that just decide it's not worth the
    amount of effort that's required - but that's not the only reason.
    
    Lynne