Conference quark::human_relations-v1

    I heard a yuck yuck that may be of interest:
    
    Dear Abey,
    
    	I have a girlfriend who is out on parol for smothering her 6 month
    old, I have a brother who is up for armed robbery, my mother is indited
    for securtity frauds, I have a record myself. I  have a brother who
    works for Dec. My question is, should I tell my girlfriend about my
    brother who works for Dec?
    
    Signed 
    Confused
    
    
    In closing, maybe she has found someone else of her own kind.
    
    Smiles
    George

    You've gotten some clear messages.  One, that she doesn't consider you
    in a romantic light, at this time.  OK, you want to change that, but
    recognize that if you get pushy about *your* needs and ignore her
    stated wishes, you'll get written off entirely.  She gave you an
    opening as a friend; stick to that basis as a way to show that you can
    respect the boundaries she currently has set for herself in her own
    life.  Two- be a good friend.  Listen to her on the phone.  Call her
    when you're planning to do something fun.  Maintain that easy
    conversational style, be someone she'd enjoy having around.  And three-
    get on with your life.  See other people.  Take care of your own needs
    without her.  Continue to develop yourself mentally, physically,
    professionally, in ways that reflect you're committed to doing the
    right things for yourself.  Those are all positive ways to enhance your
    life, and if you're enjoying your life, you'll be more attractive to
    others.  Not only her; but everyone you meet.  And hey, maybe in the
    future, she'll see what an amazing person you've made yourself into.
    Good luck.
    
    DougO

    	You sound as if you are all wrapped up in her feelings and not
    being to pushy.  You are responsible for your own feelings and no-one
    else's.  instead of second guessing this woman about how she wants to
    be approached and treated follow your own feelings.  Maybe she was
    turned off to you because you grab her and kiss her.  There are times
    to be a gentlemen and times not to be.
    
    	If you follow your feelings and not what you think are other's you
    would be alot better off!
    
    							George

    Sometimes I've met someone and felt really attracted to them
    (limerance, I think it's called - an initial glow or attraction) - and
    after time, it just doesn't pan out - the spark dies, and shine wears
    off the chandelier, however you want to put it.
    
    Friendship is vital - is important, and if they find it acceptable to
    be friends with nothing more - I consider it a win.  
    
    If they don't stop pushing for romance though I tend to get fed up with
    saying "no" and start saying "goodbye".  
    
    I'm not saying this is definitely what' happening with you - but if
    friendship is all she wants right now - can you deal with that?  Can
    you accept that and enjoy a mutually enriching friendship?
    
    -Jody
    

    Well, maybe you don't have IT. I went on a date a few months ago with
    someone who, on paper, looked perfect for me. We enjoyed ourselves, we
    talked easily, we got on, but...there was just no sexual attraction and
    that's what both of us were looking for. In my case it was mutual but
    there's no rule saying that will always be the case. You may have done
    everything right but it just didn't move her. It doesn't have to be
    someone's fault. liesl

    
    
          Wish I had met more men who were thoughtful like YOU!!  ;-)
    
          Take it easy and don't get so worked up over one woman.  THere's
       plenty more out there who will like you for what you are.  After
       going with one man for 11 years,  I had that problem for a while.
       It will work out in time.......just hang in there.   ;-)
    
           Melinda
    
      

    You sound like me way back when.... 
    
    I used to meet a girl find I was attracted that we had some or many
    common interests and decide I'd like to get into the romantic side
    of the relationship.  I'd listen to everything the girl would say
    about relationships, her idea of what were "perfect" signs of
    establishing a relationship and act on them.  I could never understand
    what went wrong after a few months and the girl decided to "cut
    me" from the team.  It took some years before it began to dawn on
    me that there really are some rules to romancing a girl.
    
    One... be yourself, if she says something that you aren't comfortable
    with... say so.  Don't act on her every whim if it goes against
    your own desires.  
    
    Two... don't take it personal.  If it doesn't work out, that doesn't
    mean you are a lesser person. It means you are not the person for
    her and although you may not feel it at the moment, she is not the
    woman for you.  
    
    Three... Never feel you lack quality.  You said you felt you lacked
    something and didn't understand why it had happened.  You lacked
    nothing.  What you have isn't what she wants in a romantic
    relationship.  That doesn't mean you are lacking in anything...
    it just means she doesn't feel you have what she wants.  Everyone
    is different and what they need from a relationship sexually, mentally,
    physically, morally, ethically, and anything else are different.
    Eventually you'll meet someone who you feel attracted to and who
    feels attracted to you who WILL need all of your qualities just
    as they are.  
    
    four... don't expect everything to be perfect with everyone no matter
    how it may seem when talking with them.  Too many people say "I
    like camping."  My idea of camping is a backpack a small lightweight
    puptent dehydrated foods a fishing line and a 10 or 20 mile hike
    into the woods where no one else can find me.  They're idea of camping
    is loading the refrigerator in there camper, going to a camping
    ground and stopping off at the market on the way for a fresh steak
    for dinner that they can grill in the oven.  
    
    The improtant thing I'm picking up on is that you are going through
    a case of the "What'sa matter wi'me".  Because this lady friend
    has decided not to get romantically involved with you.  Hey, that's
    life... sometimes you shoot the bear, sometimes the bear takes a
    good size chunk of meat outta your rearend.  You can lay down and
    bleed to death or you can get back up and try again. 
    
    Oh one other thing I've learned.  I no longer try to get envolved
    in a relationship romantically.  No matter how "perfect" the person
    seems when I first meet them... IF it turns out that romance is
    there, it happens... it doesn't depend on flowers and candy, or
    cards and gifts... it depends on feelings... mutual feelings.. oh,
    I admit the other things (flowers, cards, etc.) help make the woman
    take notice of you.  And, I enjoy giving flowers to my SO for a
    lot of different reasons.. one is because she likes them, another
    is because she's not gotten them very often by previous guys...
    It makes me a little bit special granted... but I know that if I
    never gave her any flowers, we would still be just as involved...
    the flowers are a "nice thing" but they didn't and are not responsible
    for the "romantic feelings" we developed.  Those were there before
    I ever gave her a flower.
    
    Skip

    I need to make a comment here on some of the replies.
    
    First, I feel that her saying "I see us going in more of a friendship
    direction" was a euphemism for "See you later" of "See you less
    frequently; eventually, not see you at all."
    
    Of course I want to be friends with this woman, but *I* also want to
    be thought of romantically as well. I don't want to be this so-called
    "friend" of hers who calls her while she dates other men. It's called
    being a "schmuck," and I am not that nor am I about to become that. 
    
    I really would *like* to be her friend, but I don't feel sincerely that
    she really means it when she says she wants to be friends. 
    
    Also, the way she puts things is interesting, and I want to note
    it here. I quote her, because I easily remember the way she phrases
    things. "I see us moving in the direction of friendship rather
    than romance" is an exact quote of hers. It sounds incredibly
    calculating, doesn't it? Certainly not warm at all. 
    
    The point I want to make is that I don't believe she sincerely wants
    a friendship with me. I think I got the "let's be friends" speech. 
    
    Maybe I should call her, and ask her if she sincerely wants a friend
    in me. I do like her many of her qualities, so maybe something 
    can be salvaged from all of this. 
    
    I don't know. 
    

    If you sincerly feel you've been giving the brush off... then either
    accept it as such, or call her and ask her exactly what she means
    when she makes the comment.  If you confront her and tell her flat
    out that you don't like the "We can be friends" dodge that women
    (and men) tend to use sometimes... maybe she will be honest enought
    to tell you exactly what she means.  But bottom line is that you
    have to make the call.  
    
    Skip

<    Of course I want to be friends with this woman, but *I* also want to
<    be thought of romantically as well. I don't want to be this so-called
<    "friend" of hers who calls her while she dates other men. It's called
<    being a "schmuck," and I am not that nor am I about to become that. 
    
    Ahem, you seem to equate friends with romatically involved. She
    obviously means it otherwise. Are you saying men who are friends
    with women who see others romatically are schmucks? *Friends* does not
    imply romance. If the lady doesn't want a romance with you, give it up
    since you obviously don't want to be *just* friends. And yes, that
    usually means no sex, that's why the "just" is there. liesl

    	Like others have said before, sometimes even if everything
    seems "right", it may still not be enough.  Relationships can be
    made from some pretty elusive things.

    	I was in a similar situation, on the other side from you.  I
    met someone and everything just seemed to click: we had a lot of 
    common interests, our personalities really meshed, we had a lot of
    fun together, sometimes it was almost freaky just how in sync our
    minds were...yet I felt like there was just something missing.  I
    felt it pretty soon after we started going out, but gave it time,
    thinking maybe it would develop, that maybe it was just in my
    mind.  I kept thinking, "hey, what's wrong with me - this person
    seems to be perfect for me" and "am I looking for something that I
    don't even know exists?".  But finally I realized that I needed
    whatever it was that was missing, and that it wasn't going to work
    as a romantic relationship.  I still cared, certainly, but for me
    it was more on a special, close friendship level.
    
    	People often talk about "chemistry"...no one can really say
    what it is, but I think you know when it isn't there.  Are we
    wrong to want to feel that special something?  No, I don't believe
    so.  And even if we do, it doesn't always last or develop into
    something stronger and more lasting.  And yes, it hurts when one
    person feels it but the other doesn't.

    	I don't think you can really say "what went wrong" or blame
    yourself for things not working out.  If she felt that the
    attraction just wasn't there, then it was probably best that she
    told you.  I think now you just need to find out if she was being
    honest and serious about having the friendship or if it was indeed
    "just a line".  And if she did mean it, you then have to decide if
    you can handle being friends *without* being romantically involved.
    And that means really accepting it...not constantly hoping that
    things will change and she'll suddenly be interested.

    	Take care and good luck,

    	amy

    There could be a millions reasons it didn't work out.  She may not even
    be able to explain why.  And I think that by asking, you won't even get
    the whole answer even though she may want to tell you.  You still may
    get only half the truth, even if she thinks it's the whole truth. 
    Don't pressure her into telling you why.  Maybe you don't want to know. 
    The hardest thing is being left for no *good* reason.  This once
    happened to me, except we *got engaged*.  His asking, not mine.  Out of
    the blue things change.  
    
    Also, I have heard it said that the real test of a relationship is the
    breakup, and whether or not the "dumpee" is able to get back together
    with the "tester" determines whether the thing leads to permanent
    restoration or a complete separation forever.  
    
    Also, has anyone in this conference been let go and *never* talked
    to the person since?  It is difficult, but is it really easier than
    hanging on?  I don't think so, because of all the unanswered questions. 
    My suspicion is that most people still have some phone calls
    occasionally with the person.
    
    ---Becca    

re: .10
    
>    Of course I want to be friends with this woman, but *I* also want to
>    be thought of romantically as well. I don't want to be this so-called
>    "friend" of hers who calls her while she dates other men. It's called
>    being a "schmuck," and I am not that nor am I about to become that. 
    
    The time I date men is when I MOST need to talk-to/be-with my friends -
    its when I most need their warmth and perspective.  I have been more
    emotionally close with men-friends than I have with men-lovers a
    sizable percentage of the time.  I wouldn't call that being a schmuck.
        
>    I really would *like* to be her friend, but I don't feel sincerely that
>    she really means it when she says she wants to be friends. 
    
    Ah - thereby hangs the tale.  If this is the case, then take it as her
    loss (why hang around someone who doesn't want to hang around with you
    - if this is, indeed, the case in this instance).  It is HER judgement,
    and HER consequence.  Don't take it personally, because there is no
    "fault" involved if it didn't seem to be working on both sides....
    
    -Jody
    
 

	Anyone for generalizations?

	I think that woman tend to be more intuitive about relationships.
   I think they analyze a guy subconsciously until they get a conscious 
   feeling of,  "This is for me,"  or  "This isn't for me."  I don't think
   that being considerate is high on the list of attractive qualities for
   many woman.  It may get a lot of lip service ( no double entendre 
   intended,)  but I've never heard a woman say,  " Oh! That Tom Cruise.
   He looks soooo considerate."  I think people should be as considerate
   of themselves as they are of their significant other.

	I think guys tend to be more analytical,  trying to figure out what
   will work in a relationship,  what will please the woman.  But the real 
   challenge is to be yourself even at the risk that this turns out not to
   be what the other person likes.  People have different likes and 
   dislikes.  If a woman ( say Julia Roberts for instance ) likes a 
   different flavor of ice cream than I do,  I don't take it personally.
   There is no right or wrong,  good or bad judgement involved.  So when 
   Julia likes a different kind of guy than me,  I try to remind myself
   that it's just a matter of personal taste.

	As far as "friendship" goes,  it's so hard to know what she means 
   by this.  For my own self,  I have woman friends that I cherish even
   though I've never had the hots for them.  Perhaps if it is difficult 
   to be "just friends,"  then you may have reservations about the
   relationship that you aren't consciously aware of yet.  Anyways ( or 
   anyway ),  you are now in a position where other woman have a better
   chance to meet and get to know you.

				Preaching without practising,
						
							John

    
    
    Is she aware of how you are feeling?  Have you contacted her since
    she told you her news?
    
    Maybe you need to get a definition from her on what she considers
    to be romantic or romance? 
    
    I agree with the others.  Be yourself.  If you try to live up
    to someones expectations at the cost of yourself, what is the
    point?  You are giving a false impression and it hurts everyone
    involved.  
    
    If this relationship is meant to be then it will come back to you.
    You have to decide if you want to wait or not.
    
    Michele

    Thanks to some of you for your insight. I felt much better last night,
    and I'm sure that as time goes on I will feel even better.
    
    I am bothered only because I felt that we had a very good foundation
    for romance, and it didn't follow through. I can _eventually_ accept
    that she doesn't want romance, but until that "eventually" comes along,
    I'm not sure I can call her. 
    
    Some thoughts: she has no more right to make what we have a friendship
    through sheer force of her will, than I do to make what we have a 
    romance through sheer force of my will. No one is indeed right or 
    wrong here; we just see each other differently. 
    
    One thing I neglected to mention, and perhaps I should have, is that 
    she and I disagree politically (she's a staunch liberal; I'm a 
    conservative, broadly speaking). We discussed this. I told her that
    I can respect any opinion on politics, though I may not agree with
    it, I'd like to discuss it. I sense that maybe in this regard she
    was looking for a liberal person. I sense that maybe it wasn't
    enough for me to state my reasons for having a conservative 
    slant. (She has marched on Washington for various causes, is
    employed by the state as a social worker, and supports Jesse
    Jackson). I don't object to any of these things, of course, though
    I have opinions on whether I fully agree with the reasoning 
    behind the way each of these things operates/conducts themselves.
    
    I wonder if having a liberal boyfriend matters to her? 
    
    As far as attractiveness goes, she's no knockout; but what makes
    her very attractive to me is the way she and I communicate (or,
    the way I _thought_ we communicated :-)). 
    
    Honestly, I feel a lot better after reading some of the advice in
    this note. One noter said I should stop my whining and get on;
    while that seems the "manly" thing to do, I think a "mourning
    period" is necessary. I also think that it's important for me
    to express ALL of my feelings, valid or not, so that I can purge
    them from my system. There is anger here, I will admit, and
    maybe a little resentment, but these are my feelings and as 
    such I cannot disown them. I have to recognize they are there,
    deal with them, see the reasoning behind all of this, and then
    eventually move on - feeling that my value as a person is
    intact, and my attractiveness to _someone_ is possible and
    will happen. 
    
    It takes time. Thanks again!
    

    Re.20... It's a normal process called catharsis... I've been through
    it.  You may even consider using EAP if you're a regular full time
    employee... sometimes the purging can be helped along just by talking
    to someone who is totally indifferent to the problem.  They also
    can suggest ways to go through the process quicker.  
    
    Re. back a few... asking if anyone had ever completely stopped talking
    to someone after a breakup in a relationship.  
    
    Hate to blow your theory... but yes I have stopped talking... and
    have had it done to me by some.  Not always but it has happened...
    It depends on the "tone" of the breakup, the thoughts and feelings
    expressed at the time and the way it occures.  I had one girl so
    determined not to talk to me ever again that the day after the breakup
    she packed up everything she owned and moved in with her parents.
    
    Well, I can take a hint especially when it's administered with a
    2 by 4, and never sought her out or tried to contact her again.
    
    Skip

    I have been in similar situations on "both sides of the fence".  At times, 
    I have found that after dating someone who seems easy to talk to, has 
    similar interests, etc. that for some reason there just is no romantic 
    interest on my part, however much I may like/respect/value the other 
    person.  At this point, I tell them that I am not interested in them
    romantically but AM interested in being friends.  I currently have some 
    very good friends that I had dated at one time.  A few that I've known
    for years.  She may honestly want to just be friends, but the only way 
    that you will find out is to give her a chance.  I can't count how 
    many friends I have *lost* because the other person was unwilling to be 
    "just friends".  In .20, you said that you weren't sure you could call
    her until you "_eventually_ accept that she doesn't want romance". 
    Since you enjoy sending cards - maybe you should send her a card saying
    something like "I'm sorry things couldn't work out romantically, but I
    really value our talks and I would still like to be friends with you." 
    And then follow up with a phone call when you're feeling better about
    the situation.  
    
    Having been on the other side of the fence, I know how difficult it
    can be to get the "just friends" speech, but realize that she isn't 
    telling you that NO ONE can be interested in you romantically, just
    that she isn't.  
    
    And I agree with an earlier reply - the flowers and cards are great!
    
    Hang in there and good luck being friends!
    
    Sue  

    Remember yourself and who you are...remember dates you've had in which
    you liked someone very much but not in the way to have a
    relationship...and just remember you are best alone, knowing the
    situation, not having to wait for someone who cannot reciprocate the
    way you want or deserve.  At least it was only a month.  The pain will
    pass quickly.
    
    I have learned thru relationships that I am much happier enjoying life
    alone and with friends than in an unhappy relationship where I am not
    given the same back that I give.  Enough that I will wait for that
    right person.  A little pain now is better than a lot of pain later, or
    for a lot of love later.
    
    Cheer up and start smiling.

    Maybe its like this, people like themselves ok. and hence get on really
    well with people who are like them, but they don't actually look to
    find themselves in a relationship, they look for a partnership based
    upon two people having differant qualities which match up, hence
    "opposites attract". 
    
    By this rule if someone has a weakness then a similar partner to them
    might have the same weakness and hence it is compounded instead of being
    cancelled out. 
    
    This rule I feel and I do speak with experience will seperate "friends"
    from "lovers" on many ocassions.
    
    Alternatively, there may have been a downside to your relationship, if
    someone has been hurt before then they begin to get close to someone,
    but then back away with the word "friendship" on the basis that they
    fear getting involved again.
    
    Could be either of those, or one of many more.
    
    Now this might seem a strange OMEN, but I believe if you actually
    accept "friendship" from someone you have been involved with, it will
    never revert back to love again, as people build up within themselves 
    conceptions of being with someone and those conceptions mutate into
    trust, so that if the trust is the expectation of resuming a
    relationship, whilst to her it is acceptance of friendship then lookout
    because you wil end up getting hurt many times before you have to face
    the truth.
    
    If you really want "love" rather than frienship, then keep the ball in
    that caught and let her work out where she wants to go. If neither of
    you want love then friendship will be a guarranteed sucess.
    
    
    My thoughts anyway.
    

I dated a girl in High school(no smart remarks about woman-vs-girl from those 
petty enough to do so) where our relationship toggled back and forth from
friends to lovers many times. Ultimatly she married another guy but we have
remained best friends for nearly 15 years now. She called me just the other
night to tell me she was back in town from saudia arabia and of her experiences
there. Her husband is a fighter jockey and sent her home because of the crisis
and she needed a friend to share her fears with. Back a few years ago when my
marriage broke up she was the only person I felt close enough to to talk my
problems over with and truly work it out within myself. The F word isen't
always bad I am happy we stayed friends sometimes its better.

-j

    "What went wrong?
    
    Obviously, lack of LOVE.  You just cannot "pick a person up" and decide
    to have romance and then switch to friendship. Romance is the product
    of LOVE and sadly enough, that cannot be programmed when we feel like
    it or when we need it, but when "it comes", what we can do, (and too
    often do) is that, program to date someone with similar likes and
    characteristics so we can be confortable with, we choose someone who
    "might" be compatible to us but that choice is cerebral, choosen with
    our brain, not with our heart because as I said before, we cannot
    "program" our heart to do what our brain tell us to do...
    
    You did things wright, she just picked you up like one more candidate
    among many... and you were not the winner... but relax, the "winner"
    might not be a winner either... but used till a better suited one comes
    along...
    I have a feeling you were the winner in your situation... don't feel
    bad.
    Lots of luck, Ana
    

    
>    I recently met a woman who, upon first introduction, struck me as 
>    someone who would be "right" for me. The number of things we had in
>    common was incredible, all of the "right" things; all of the things
>    that make conversation so easy between two people. Being around her
>    was so easy, and she said she felt the same way around me. In fact,
>    I remember her saying, "It's so easy with you. With other dates,
>    conversation is such 'politics', but it's really refreshing and
>    easy to talk to you." 


    	Don't be surprised if this happens again.  A number of times I've
    felt someone was "right" for me, only to discover later that I was
    wrong.  And the same can be said for the converse, too.  Your initial
    reaction isn't always right.


    	Or perhaps, maybe she *was* "right".  But maybe you simply met at
    the wrong time.  Timing is at least as important in relationship as the
    other 1001 variables.  If she wasn't ready for a relationship, or if
    she wasn't ready to see you for the person you really are (how many
    times have we looked back to say, "*There's* one I should have
    snagged!").  I believe there are many "right" people for each one of
    us; it's just a matter of meeting them at the "right" time.


    	Having lots of commonality may not necessarily be a positive thing.
    If she doesn't hold herself in a very high esteem, then seeing some of
    the characteristics which she holds in a negative light in someone else
    would tend to turn her off.

    
>    I was immediately swept away by this woman. From the start, she said
>    she was looking for a committed relationship, with romance. She said
>    she really wanted someone around. 


    	No doubt she meant it too, but sometimes what we think we need and
    and what we actually need are two different things.  You just don't
    know until you jump in and discover you're wrong (it's unfortunate that
    we hurt others in such cases, too).

    
>    For example, on our third date, I gave her flowers and candy. Nothing
>    fancy. And while I gave them to her, I said, "I don't want to put 
>    any pressure on you, but I do like you and wanted to show you that
>    by giving you these." Is there anything wrong with this? I don't
>    think so. I did not put any pressure on.


    	This sort of thing could easily turn a woman off.  She might view
    it as "coming on too strong", or that she felt she "owed" you something
    in return and wasn't ready to give it.  There are lots of ways to show
    someone how you feel without resorting to material things.

    
>    After that, we had maybe three more dates. I sent her cards (not
>    romantic ones, funny ones). She SAID she liked to get mail, and 
>    she never objected to getting any of these things.


    	Simply because she never objected vocally doesn't mean it wasn't
    bothering her.  It may have been building up to a point where she was
    having trouble dealing with it.  Who knows?  But if so, she was at
    fault for not having talked about it.

    
>    What happened? I didn't date her long enough to be really hurt by
>    this, but I am hurt nonetheless. I felt that this person was really
>    worth it, so I gave it my best shot, showing her my affection (but
>    not overdoing it - I didn't call every day, or even every other day),
>    showing an interest in her line of work (she doesn't work for DEC), 
>    wearing the best clothes for her, taking her to nice places, and
>    really just falling for her. 


    	You gave it your best shot.  Well then, what more could you do?
    It's totally natural (and necessary for growth), but don't blame
    yourself *too* much.  It's *my* opinion that just as it takes two to
    Make a relationshiop, it takes two to Fail it as well.  I just don't
    believe that anything is one-sided.  Take some time, and then look back
    at what happened.  Pick out the things (if any) that you think you did
    wrong (or could have done better), and learn from them.  It's okay to
    make mistakes, just try not to make the same ones.

    
>    I'm hurt. I wonder what the h_ll I have to do, you know? What DOES
>    she want? Someone who does cartwheels? I honestly hope that she
>    finds the guy she wants, because she passed up a great opportunity
>    with me, in my opinion. I would be very interested to see if the
>    guys she meets are half as considerate, romantic, and thoughtful
>    as I was to her. 


    	Does it really matter?  If I were you, I would consider the issue
    *over* and go on.  Forget her.  Every time you catch yourself thinking
    about her, verbally reprimand yourself and continue with your life.
    Some of your comments lead me to believe that maybe you were infatuated
    with her, to a degree.  It almost sounds like you were giving up a lot
    of yourself to please her, and this is maybe why it hurts.  It's an
    easy thing to do, watch out for it.  Remember your own needs.  Approach
    relationships on an equality basis.

    
>    Where do I go from here? I just feel that if I meet a woman I like
>    from now on, no matter what I do I'll lose. She'll think there's
>    someone better out there. I'm losing sleep over this because I 
>    feel it's an unresolved problem. 


    	This is an easy thing to start thinking.  I think you'll find,
    however, that once you get over this hurt and start healing yourself
    this will start to go away.  Also, make sure your own self-esteem is up
    there.  Not only will someone with a high self-esteem not be prone to
    thoughts like these, but they will be more likely to attract
    prospective partners.  So, I feel the "problem" resides in *you*.  Once
    you see yourself as a valuable person, you won't be worried about
    someone dumping you for "someone better".


    	As for the friendship issue:  my advice, and your later notes
    indicate that you see it too, is that I don't think you're ready for
    it.  It can be done, but you'd best start thinking of yourself, first.


    	Good luck.


    Brian

    It's real important not to draw the wrong conclusions.

    I've had women that I was seeing send me romantic things or do romantic
    things that scared me away.

    It would have been the *wrong* conconclusion on their part that their
    romantic gestures were the wrong thing to do.  It would also be a wrong
    conclusion on their part that I was "afraid of committment".

    More accurately, I just wasn't feeling interested in them romantically,
    or I was discovering that I no longer wanted to be romantic with them.
    Other times, I've LOVED having such romantic things sent and done to
    me when I felt right about the woman.

    I've also been on the other side.  Women I was crazy about, sending
    them flowers and love letters.  Then their telling me they want to
    "just be friends".

    It would be the wrong conclusion on my part to think I was "too fast"
    or "too much" with my flowers and letters to them.  It would be a wrong
    conclusion for me to think that if I had been slower I "wouldn't have
    lost her".  Yes, I've drawn these wrong conclusions too many times.

    More accurately, she just wasn't interested in me.  Other women I've
    been with have really appreciated me sending flowers.

    So I guess what I'm saying is, when the people are right and ready for
    each other, all the romantic moves are the right thing to do.  If the
    people aren't quite right for each other, or one doesn't want the
    other, no "right" moves are going to win them over.

    The danger of wrong conclusions is that we become less alive, we stop
    trying to be as romantic and spontaneous, thinking that such was our
    mistake in the past, when it really wasn't a mistake at all.

    When Ms Chemistry and I finally meet, there will be mucho sparks...

    /Eric                                                       

    Hello everyone, 
    
    Back when I entered the basenote, I really had my doubts about whether
    or  not she and I could be "friends," or what would happen to us even a
    few weeks down the road. 
    
    After that initial "let's be friends" talk that I got from her, I
    didn't  call her. I wanted to see if she really was sincere about being
    friends,  or if it all was going to just fade away. 
    
    Well, she _did_ continue to call me and stay in touch. She didn't call 
    often, but she did call. And I called her, too (again, with about the 
    same frequency). During the early Fall, she attempted to meet some 
    men (for dating) by attending some dances and meeting guys thru friends 
    at work. She was looking for a romantic relationship. 
    
    Well, just before the Xmas holiday, I distinctly got the impression 
    from her that her "venture" was not very fruitful. Nothing really 
    panned out for her. In fact, I got the impression that she began 
    to see my good merits. "You're definitely not like most guys," 
    she said to me (more than once). 
    
    To make a long story short, I'm getting the feeling now that she  is
    most definitely my friend and in fact is considering me romantically. 
    We met on New Years Eve for a few hours and had a nice talk together;
    really felt comfortable with each other (that hadn't changed). 
    
    This past Saturday she called me and we talked for about an hour. "I 
    was thinking about you this week...what a nice time we had Monday." 
    
    I haven't hounded this woman, but I was there for her during a long
    bout of flu she had around Thanksgiving. She said she appreciated 
    that. 
    
    Where are we going now? Darned if I know. I'm being cautious. I'm
    taking it slow. I'm also seeing other people. But deep down I'm happy 
    that she and I remained friends. There's something to be said for that.
    She and I have the potential to be good friends. We have good talks
    together. We understand when each other needs room. As she herself put
    it when I asked her just what was going on between  us now: "I don't
    know. I guess we'll just make up the rules as  we go along."