Conference quark::human_relations-v1

    Although I never went to pre-martial couseling myself, I have a
    sister who did.  She claimed it was very benificail to the marriage,
    giving a realistic look at marriage and what to expect of it, vs.
    what it appears to be.  
    
    After having had 2 marriages in my past I have every intention of
    getting it along with my prospective spouse when/if I ever decide
    to try for it again.  That is if I don't end up in the same situation
    you are in.  
    
    Skip

    Can lead the horse to water, but if he isn't in the drinking mood.
    Thats life. And I don't know if making a demand to go prior to marriage
    would do any good. He may resent you for making him do so. Tough call.
    
    George 

    I would ask him why he refuses to go to counselling.  If it's important
    to you and you've had difficulties concerning how he's handled the
    situation with his children, I'd definitely ask him.
    
    Do you feel that you can talk easily with him about issues that concern
    you, or do you feel that counselling could help open up the lines of
    communication.
    
    Judi
    

    
    I never had premarital counselling but I never felt the need.  I don't
    think that counselling, of any type, can ever hurt.  Perhaps you could
    go yourself.  If you are concerned about the relationship, it might
    help to sort out your concerns.  I feel that I must tell you to really
    evaluate why you are marrying a man who won't discuss problems and
    doesn't seem to have handled his "past situations" well.  I don't know
    him at all, but if sounds like he has a problem taking responsibility
    for himself.  I'm also not sure of your beliefs, but perhaps you should
    think about living with him before you are married.  If he won't take
    responsibility for his children, past relationships or present
    relationship, then how would he be with day-to-day things, like
    housework?  I hope I haven't upset you.  Your note just set off warning
    flags in my head.  Good Luck!
    
    Rachael
    

    Why would you like to marry a person that has his life in such a mess?
    I have been married many years but I do consider Marriage a
    "sacrament", something that cannot be broken.  These days marriages are
    just mere contracts, that when it does not work we break it and get a
    new one, with that fragility in mind, how can a marriage last? but the
    real problem is not the marriage itself, but the CHILDREN who are born
    out of those marriages and find themselves drifting from parent to
    parent or alone... those kids grow up to continue that type of vicious
    circle, where happiness is so elusive as to be almost non-existent.
    Marriage is a sacrament and should be given the upmost respect and
    sacrifice. I believe that in the Catholics have a minimum of 6 months
    of counseling preparation to the marriage and it is attended by both,
    the bride and groom, and at the least hint of "fragility" or
    uncertainty, the marriage does not take place... I believe that is why
    catholic families have long marriages... they do put a lot of effort in
    the success of their marriages.
    I would advise you to think very seriously BEFORE you get married, in
    putting things in order and in the right perspective.  Only then you
    will have some assurance that your marriage will last and it will have
    a solid base in which to create a family worthy of having, a family
    to be proud of.

    I went to such a program.... in the Air Force.

    I divorced the _____ in 1986!

    Like living with someone, they don't guarantee anything.

    After reading alot of this note and others like it, I still feel that
    we are part if that 'me first, and screw you' generation. And the kids
    are always the brunt of the stick. 

    Counselling can do you no harm - even if you go alone.  I was a
    Marriage Guidance Counsellor for a few years and say many people,
    often (for some reason) the woman would come alone first, but after
    a few weeks the man very often started to come along too, often
    don't say too much at first, but when they do open up, it's really
    great.  I'd say, go along, just to talk to someone completely impartial
    will help you sort out your feelings - and that can only be good.
    
    re .5 - I think most people believe their marriage will last when
    they enter into it and I most definately do not believe that people
    just move on without really trying to get their marriage sorted
    out - I have witnessed the pain and sorrow of people desperately
    wanting to be happy again - but eventually have decided to part
    - it is not easy, believe me.
    
    As for waiting until you are absolutely sure your marriage will
    survive - no-one can be sure of this - we fall in love, we marry,
    we want to stay happy - sometimes it just doesn't happen.
    
    I agree, children often suffer, but when a marriage breaks down,
    two caring parents can ensure that the children are helped through
    this traumatic time.
    
    I was divorced 13 years ago when my son was 3 yrs old - he is now
    a fine, well balanced young man of 16 and has no hang ups about
    being from a 'one parent family'.
    
    Just my feelings on the subject!
    
    Brenda

    All I can say is, it would have helped me..........28 years ago....
    
    ....Bob

Janiez,

>    Any opinions?
I agree with .4 by BARLOW 

>    ... I feel that I must tell you to really
>    evaluate why you are marrying a man who won't discuss problems ..

Not quite "to evaluate why you" but to clarify your own
feelings and wants.  If he is mad enough about you to 
marry you and live with you the rest of his life, popping
off to a few sessions is no big deal.

It is no joy to live with people who ONLY see the view
through their own windshield.

If your thinking of going by yourself, go for it! Look at
the ratio one can guesstimate:

  $ few-hundred dollars + few hours : 40 years of marriage

ps.  I think if I had done this, the first few years of my
     marriage would have been a lot more fun. NOW I realize
     my thoughts and needs were terriby fuzzy to me ... would
     have been better to clarify them.

     Meigs -- who will be perfect at 70  -- :)

    There are 2 priorities :
    
    First, a metaphor -
    	  Alchemists never did make gold from straw and you wont make
    	granite out of mud.   There better be a solid base first!
    
    Second Priority
    	The councilor is MUCH more important than the council.  Check out
    	credentials.  Better to play the odds with a councilor with
    	advanced degrees in the field than a local neighborhood priest,
    	learning the ropes, by giving precana classes once a week

    There's a problem with metaphors -- they don't always hold up well.
    
    You're right, you can't make granite out of mud. But you can make
    brick, porcelein, or if you're real clever reinforced concrete -- which
    is a lot stronger than granite.
    
    	Jon

I realize this reply is a little late...I've been on vacation,and am just now
trying to catch up on notes.

Personally, I don't think I'd want to marry someone who refused counseling.
If a man isn't dealing with something well, why won't he try to get some help
to deal with it?  Marriage isn't always easy - things don't always go smoothly.
If a man won't go to counseling, then how will he deal with problems in a
marriage?  How is he going to make something better if he won't WORK on making
it better?

There are a lot of people who admit they have problems, but they either lay
the "blame" on someone else, or whine about it -- without DOING anything to
improve things.  Problems generally don't get better by themselves.  Life and
marriage takes work.  Often one of the most effective means of working on
something is to get counselling.

We half-heartedly went to counselling a few times before we got married.  
Nothing changed.  After about a year and a half of marriage we almost split
up, went to counselling in desperation, really placed our faith in the
counsellor, in the marriage, and in each other, and the relationship is better
and stronger than ever.

The value of counselling is in the counsellor and in the effort you put into 
achieving results.  If my partner refused to go with me, I'd go alone, and I
would take a real long look at how he (the partner) deals with problems.

    Something can also be said for looking for problems that don't truly
    exist.  Counseling for the sake of counseling seems pointless.  Two
    people that have open communication and talk about what they each
    expect out of the marriage, can probably forgo the pre-marital
    counseling.  Not wanting to get "deep and personal" with an outsider
    does not necessarily mean the person lacks the ability or desire to
    deal with problems.  It may just mean that they prefer keeping personal
    trials between the couple.  Nothing wrong with that...
    
    When it comes my "turn" to settle down, I hope to find a program where
    my fiance' and I can talk to young married couples and discuss some of
    the things that will come up after the honeymoon.  By sharing
    experiences, we can learn to better handle situations when/if they
    arrive.
    
       - Larry