Conference quark::human_relations-v1

    
    
    He has to make the decision on his own.  Sure it will be tough, but
    only he can make it.  He has to decide for himself whether dating
    a 15 year old is right or wrong.  The fact that he is upset because
    she is 15 sets off alarms right there.  He obviously feels it is
    a problem or it wouldn't have bothered him.
    
    If it were me I would break off the situation.  There is a hell
    of alot of a difference in the maturity level of a 22 year old
    vs a 15 year old.  Look at it realistically.  When September rolls
    around she will be going back to school and probably hanging out
    with other folks her age.  Does he want to hang around with kids
    7 years younger than he?  Will he be willing to go with her to her
    Jr Prom?  What would his family think of the situation if they knew
    he were dating a 15 year old girl?  What will his friends think
    if they found out he was dating a 15 year old girl?  
    
    He has a tough decision to make.  But he will have to live with
    whatever decision he makes.  He is going to be doing alot of changing
    and growing himself.  What if his changes do not agree with her?
    

    I know it is tough to do but a seven year age difference is very big
    for a fifteen and a 22 year old. The maturity level is radically
    different. I say drop her and date someone his own age, as much as it
    is going to hurt.  He will be glad in the longrun.
    

    Funny, I was 15 when I started dating my  now Ex-husband. I am also
    5'10", and everyone thought I was at least 20 (never got carded). Then
    again Andy knew from the start how young I was. He, BTW, was 7 years
    older. (does this sound like the base note!). 

    From that perspective, I think a mature 15 year old can have a
    relationship with a 22 year old. Mine lasted about 9 years. 
    What I don't agree with is the dishonesty about the age, even if by 
    omission. 

    Admittedly my parents didn't know we were dating for about a year, but
    my dad already knew and liked/trusted him. And no, we weren't sleeping
    together for a few years to come. 
    
    
    Gail

I'm not sure I want to reply to this, but I obviously am, anyway.  At some
point 7 years ceases to pose much of a difference.  Is he SURE she's only 15?
How can a 15-year old be working in a jewelry store?  Has her age been verified
by any source other than the cousin?  If it's true, then I think they should 
probably stop sleeping together (and I'm not even *sure* of that).  But if they
make each other happy, then why should they stop seeing each other?  If people 
are happy together, I hate to see them throw it away, for whatever reason.  

Obstacles aren't always insurmountable -- sometimes we just have to get 
creative, and find new ways to deal with them.

I wish them luck.

Paula, whose daughter will be 15 in 2 days.

    Well, as a 22 year old, I realize that it's tough sometimes to know how
    old a person is until you ask them.  I've seen 16 and 17 year olds act
    more maturely than people my own age, but the differences are still
    there.  My parents are six years apart, but they met at 20 and 26, and
    that's much different than 15 and 22.
    
    On a more personal level, I know that it's been tough for me to meet
    nice single women my age that would be interested in dating someone
    their own age.  It's been my experience that women are usually more
    interested in men that are older.  This was the case back when I was
    15, and I have yet to notice any significant change.  Then again, this is
    just what I've observed.
    
    I can understand how he feels because it's great to be in love and most
    people aren't willing to give it up once they find it.  He probably
    thinks that he won't find someone else (or that it will take a long
    time) but he will.  I really think that he should just break it off. 
    Sure, it won't be easy, but it will be much harder later on.  He'll
    soon come to realize the age gap and it will definitely affect their
    relationship.  I really think that she will set him back at a time when
    he needs to become more independent.
    
       - Larry    

    The immediate and first thing is to stop the sex.  He doesn't need
    to go to jail.  
    
    Now.  I had a friend that was in the Navy with me, we were both
    22.  His FIANCEE!!!, was 15.  Her parents knew him and established
    ground rules.  He was not allowed to take her out, only see her
    at there home or certain friends homes.  They were not to be married
    until she was 18.  He could only be alone with her in her room if
    the door were open.  He abided by there rules and when she was 18
    they married. When I'd last seen them they were very happy together
    and she had just started going to college.  She was then 22.  I
    still receive occasional cards from them and there two kids refer
    to be as "Uncle Skip".
    
    On the other end.... my cousin married the boy next door, they had
    7 years difference between them, she married as soon as she graduated
    from high school.  2 years later they divorced.  She had taken to
    going out with her friends and doing the things that most single
    teenagers do.  He wanted to come home after a hard day at work and
    relax... occasionally go out to a movie or dinner, or sometimes
    go to a party at a friends house.  The maturity "gap" was pretty
    big between the two.  And it ended rather sadly with her divorcing
    him and him taking custody of there two children.  
    
    Advice?... no not really... just two sides of similar pictures that
    he might want to consider.
    
    Skip

    Re.0    >> age
    
    
    About five years ago ( or so ) the age of consent in France was
    changed to 14 - for both males & females.
     
     [ This is a legal fact ]
    
    Must be Les Francos drink more milk and read more books so they
    mature mentally & physically faster than those in Mass. ?
    

    I'll second the advice to cut off the sex.  When one partner is of age
    and the other is a minor, it makes absolutely NO difference whether the
    minor consented.  It's still considered statutory rape.  Take your
    friend on a fieldtrip to the local penitentiary if he has any second
    thouhts.
    
    imho,
    marge

    
    Whatever the age difference, it is THEIR relationship and they should
    decide together what to do.
          
    Like any other relationship, I'd suggest that they TALK about it.
    They should talk about what her age is, ascertain the truth of the
    matter, maybe discuss why she didn't tell him.
    
    They can then agree, if she is "only" 15, why the sex must stop
    and why that is a loving decision for both of them.
    I agree that if she is underage then the sex must stop for the moment,
    and they'll want to work it out between them how to handle that.
               
    If they care about each other, and hope to do so long term, then
    communication must start NOW. There's nothing that they can't
    discuss, agree and act on to ensure that their relationship stays
    stable and legal - personally I don't feel that the age difference
    makes a hoot of difference. 
                                                                   
    'gail
    

    Isn't the age of consent 16?  How many months until she's 16?  I
    think it'd be ridiculous to break it off for the sake of a couple of
    months.  On the other hand, I question the "love" element.  They've
    only known each other a short time, and she's been deceptive.  I'd
    say he's probably all wound up and turned on over her but love?  Would
    most men, (people, actually), tolerate deception in their love affairs?
    I don't think so.  But would a man tolerate deception in order to sleep
    with a young, 'drop dead gorgeous' woman?  Quite likely.  If he's 22,
    he knows the score and he has the right to choose to take these
    chances.  Love is mature and rational.  But lust has a mind of its own.
    His reaction to the facts betrays where his main interests lie.  He's
    just placed his fate completely in another's hands.  God help him if he 
    hever pisses her off!
    

       Back in the early 60's, while I was still in high school, a
       friend and I went to a party.  My friend "Ronnie", who was 18,
       wound up in an upstairs bedroom with "Liz", who was 15.

       Ronnie and Liz started dating.  About a week later, her parents
       found out that they were having sex.  Now to be honest, Ronnie
       was a high school drop out and no one's vision of the ideal
       boyfriend for their daughter, plus this was the early 60s.

       Her parents TOOK CONTROL of the situation, and Ronnie served 9
       months of a 12 month sentence for statutory rape and
       contributing to the delinquency of a minor.

       The point of this story is that, even though Ronnie still liked
       Liz after he got out, he never went near her again because the
       situation involved more than her and him.  It also included the
       parents and the law!

       IMO, you need to help your friend understand that this is not a
       situation that he can control through his own actions, whether he
       keeps dating her or not.  Also, if the relationship ends badly,
       there could be serious consequences for him!


       Richard

    re .10:
    
    >isn't the age of consent 16?
    
    Not necessarily.  Each state sets the age of majority.  And it's not
    necessarily the same as the "drinking" age; it's the age at which one
    can legally enter into a contract, I believe.
    
    Marge

    I will vote cut out the sex and take long cold showers to get over this
    lovely woman. Never know what is going on in the opposing teams minds.
    And minds or mindless the mear fact that either have associates here
    or there could tip the lads hand to the wrong people. If he is ever
    cought, claim that she looked like Jody Foster and that he did it for
    Jody. Do anything you want, get away from this woman/girl/what ever.
    If the man in question has a decient job and he gets on the wrong side
    of it all, think about having to explain to the next employer that this
    last 9-10 years/months were spent in the 'Gray Bar Motel"! Maybe his
    next girlfriend won't be a girl/woman. Just the most popular man with
    all the ciggerettes!
    
    George

    re: -1  I like your style!  Tough and to the point.  I hope the guy
    listens.  (Grey Bar Motel - cute!)

    Thanks! I hope the guy listens too. Hate to see what COULD happen,
    happen. Besides, what will he say to mom and dad from the big house?
    Besides slip me some more files and cartons of ciggies.

My observations on the subject are these:

	- I find it astonishing that the subject of the girl's age didn't
	  come up in months of dating, and there were no clues to give
	  him a hint.  It's unlikely she would be able to drive at 15,
	  etc.  I find myself wondering if he knew but just didn't want to
	  admit it and thus "end the fun".

	- All the talk of statutory rape is contingent on someone actually
	  filing charges against him.  He would do best to not do anything
	  that would make the girl angry.  If he truly cares about her, he
	  should continue to date her but to stop the sex immediately.  If
	  she cares about him, she will understand this and not hold it
	  against him.

	- Missing in all this is anything about what the girl's opinion in
	  the matter is.  What happened when he finally asked her about it?
	  (Or did he?)

					Steve

	The age of sexual consent in MA is 16.

					--D

    <- Just tell that to mom and dad as they suprise this guy with a meat
    cleaver, to do some fallon trimming. Or a ride in Officer O'Malley's 
    paddy wagon. Weither this man is fooled by this boudatious creature 
    with lovely taa-taa's, or he is fooling us, or he is/isn't practicing
    safe sex. This man is still dealing with a minor, and not the type with
    a latern on her head to find her way around in the dark! She is 15
    going maybe going on 13? Maybe 11? Who knows? As pointed out earlier
    in this note where is her drivers lic? How did she get into a bar that
    has bouncers that check? Sounds like there are some real big holes 
    in this story and all the cards are not on the table. Reguadless,
    if she is understanding or not, the courts in this land have a real
    BIG reguard to this sort of tom-foolery which says in black and white
    what happens when you mess around with a minor.  And the man in question 
    is dealing with a loaded gun that may or may not go off.
    
    What happens if she says to our hero that your gonna be a proud daddy,
    and mom and dad says yep, in jail you can be. Or if they say to him
    marry our sweet daughter and they don't live happly ever after. 
    Many time when you half to marry someone out of respect vs loving them
    has a big difference on how long the relationship will last, if it ever
    gets to this point. 
    
    
    George

    George, from your description, he'd be marrying out of fear, more than 
    respect.  In that case, I'm CERTAIN that a marriage wouldn't work out.
    
    In any case, I stand by my opinion that he should break it off and look
    elsewhere.  Being 22 and single is not the end of the world (I'm
    there!) and I'm sure he'll meet the right girl someday.  
    
       - Larry

    Larry,
    
    	Yes, marriage out of fear is the point. And with being 22 your
    right agian. I would be more afraid of jail or a reputation that could
    be assigned for the rest of your life than some bonehead who is lieing
    her way into the bars, that is IF our hero in question is laying all
    the cards on the table. And I doubt it very much if he is. "You can
    justify anything you want! Even cold blooded murder!" You can say
    that you did it for Jody Foster, or some dog told you that you were
    to do these things, for the dog is posessed! There are many reasons
    in our lives and Larry this mans reasons are very very lame indeed.
    
    George

    George,

       Yes, but you'll have to admit that his reasons probably don't seem
    so lame to him.  I was going out with a girl who had just broken up
    with a boyfriend of three years.  Everyone and their cousin told me
    that she's "on the rebound" and to be careful.  I dismissed those
    arguments and followed my heart. 

       My heart was wrong, and after I left school for the summer, she
    started going back out with her old boyfriend.  I carried a torch for
    this girl until I realized that I was better off without her.  Now that
    I look back, I wonder what I saw in her in the first place.  But I do
    realize that I really felt for her when we were going out and those two
    months (him...coincidence?) I was "in love".  She was 19 years old, but
    there were a lot of similarities to this other situation.  The main one
    being that she lived at home and followed her parent's rules.  That's all
    fine and good, but I've come to realize that I need someone who's a little
    more independent.  In time I'm sure that he'll come to realize that
    too.

       - Larry
        

    Larry,
    
    	Was she 15 years old at the time? 14? 13? Or was she 19? Do you
    understand what I am driving at? I am saying heart or not its a cruel
    world out there and sometimes your best motives are not taken with
    honerable intentions. Reguardless! This man should not be in the same
    county at the moment! The hart is a sometimes a good reason to follow.
    But in this mans case logic better take its place. But is it his hart
    or is it his loins that are guiding our hero? Who cares if she is on
    a rebound! If your dating a minor the only rebound you may get is
    parol! 10-15 years later!
    
    George ;-)

    I guess I may sound alittle cold on this subject. But I am trying to
    give our hero here the facts. You have to understand that if our
    hero gets cought he is going to go through hell with dealing with
    the law, lawyers, the minors mom and dad and associtated outlaws who
    will want to string the sucker up by his ugly parts. They are not 
    going to understand crud! They are going to want to take out what
    ever wrongs they (outlaws) feel justifiable on our hero. There will
    be a price to pay and our hero may be paying for it for the rest
    of his un-natural life. This is not like the days of probition, this
    not like we are robbing a bank for robbing from the rich and giving
    to the poor. Your messing with someones kid. And this little minor 
    girl could be my daughter and I would probably be looking for our
    hero with dis-honerable intents! Including cold blooded premated
    murder!
    
    George

    
    Hey!  If I was 15 and some 22 year "older man" was madly "in love"
    with me, I'd have been so flattered that I'd have done almost anything
    to keep the illusion going.  I mean, I can just imagine what the
    other 15 year old girl friends are thinking!  "Wow, she's really
    lucky!" 
    
    I guess my point is, he's really got to open his eyes and figure
    out if she's really "in love" or just using him as a summer fling
    to tell "the girls" about.
    
    
    						jean

    Jean,
    
    	I see your point. And I am shure that if you were 15 and going
    out with this "older man" your not going to be able to keep a secret.
    And this is why our hero better start thinking of a new county,
    country, planet to live in or on. Who do you think is going to be on
    our heros jury? Moe, Larry, Curly? The Marks Brothers? They are going
    to be adults with kids of their own. Who do you think is going to be
    the judge? Abott and Costello? Get real! This guy is going to be
    tried like an adult who is messing around with a girl reguardless if
    she is 9 or 15! He is going to go to jail where his next girlfriend
    isn't going to be a girl! He could be the popular guy in the big house
    with that so-called boy of her age face, as described in earlier
    notes. He is going to half to face many difficulties that he is not
    pepaired to face! I think our hero better start saying that he is
    busy with other things and take cold showers.
    
    George

    I don't have time to read the replies, but.....(as I've said several
    times in this file today)........
    
    If he's wise, he'll get some distance between himself and her ASAP. She
    can't be trusted. And nothing good can come of this. I know, he loves
    her, but there are some hard realities to be faced here, and if he
    can't do that he will be in trouble...........
    
    ....hard-nosed Bob

    Re.. George and Larry,
    
    So how often do you walk into a bar meet someone nice looking and
    the first thing you ask is "Show me your Driver's License you don't
    look old enough?"
    
    I've made the same assumption as the "hero" in bars.  If the girl
    is inside... she's shown her ID before getting in and is of legal
    age to be inside.
    
    Besides,  I've seen faked ID's as well, they are not hard to get
    a hold of and can even fool the police.  So lighten up a little
    on some of what you are saying.  From the base note you should be
    addressing these problems...
    
    1) a 22 year old male is in love with a 15 year old female
    
    2) SHE did not tell him she was 15, her cousin did
    
    3) HE is hung up on her and at odds with himself because of it
    
    4) He isn't sure what to do now and seeks advice... should he walk
       away from his feelings of "a good relationship" and ignore her
       or acknowledge them and try to work out something worthwhile
       that will work and allow him to continue developing the relationship
       safely.
    
    He isn't asked to be judged or hammered or told "You're in a heap
    o' trouble"  he is aware of it, the base note states he is at odds
    with himself after finding out her age.  
    
    From the advice given so far, and evaluating it myself, I would
    say.
    
    1) Stop the sex immediatly wait until she is of legal age of consent.
    
    2) Confront her... find out from her just how old she really is...
    cousins, sisters, and brothers, are notorious for pulling what they
    think are harmless jokes and it is a possiblility that this is her
    cousins idea of one.
    
    3) If she IS 15, sit and talk with her figure out what your next
    move is going to be.  
    
    4) Talk with her parents... tell them the truth about how he feels,
    his real age, and how he made the mistake of thinking she was older,
    if it turns into a deal for them.  (Some parents don't mind that
    age difference realizing that it will work out later).
    
    5) Decide if she is really worth all the headaches that will develope
    along the way.  
    
    Skip

    Skip,
    
    	Your logic sounds good. Execpt I would opt the talking with mom and
    dad. Unless he is certain of the fact that it would be in his best
    interest. Not hers. Perhaps this would be good for her as that mom and
    dad may find out what she is doing in her off hours and correcting it.
    But after reading some of the earlier notes I wounder if you can.
    
    George

    OOh, no, don't talk to her parents!  Why stir this all up?  Why not
    just back off until her birthday?  (Does she live in Massachusetts?)
    Then he can shack up with her for the entire weekend if he wants to
    and face only the "normal" potential problems of pregnancy or disease.  
    Talking, communicating, thinking, facing the parents - all wastes of 
    time in my opinion.  Because even after all this, piss her off just once 
    and she still can play her trump card.  Doesn't he realize how
    vulnerable he has made himself to a girl who's willing to lie to get
    men and to get into bars?  What lengths is she willing to go to to get
    what she wants?  He's testing them.  And I hope he doesn't find out.
    
    I too had an "older man" when I was in high school.  We weren't lovers,
    but I loved to show him off to my friends.  He was in the Navy, drove a
    red 442 convertible and picked me up after school.  I was flattered and 
    I strung him along for the ego boost then dumped him for a cute guy my
    own age when I grew up.                                           

    Well, the suggestion of confronting mom and dad depends a lot on
    what type of person they are.  It is possible that if he does so,
    they will understand that what has been happening is not his fault,
    otherwise, if they find out through other sorces what is going on...
    
    "I saw your daughter out with that guy... my daughter tell me he's
    22 and took her to his place the other day." 
    
    Who knows what can happen.  (Meat cleavers is only one possiblity)
    If he tells them the facts....
    
    1) I meat her in a bar and assumed she was legal
    2) We've been seeing each other for.... amount of time now.
    3) I care very much about her, and didn't know how old she was.
    
    There may be no consiquence at all.  As they may be willing to overlook
    what has happened based on knowledge of what she has been doing.
    
    The base note stated that he has met her parents so it would depend
    on how well he knows them and how well he gets along with them.
     
    Skip

    Re-1... the reason I suggest this is as a way to avoid her being
    able to use her "trump card".  If the parents know about, he has
    explained the situation to them.  Then what was once a "Trump card"
    becomes a joker and they aren't wild in this game.
    
    Skip

Skip's response a couple back seems real logical and objective.

First of all, find out how old she *really* is.  I, too, wonder if the cousin
was pulling some sort of a joke.

Talking with the parents might be a good idea if he opts to continue the
relationship, and if the parents are fairly reasonable (i.e., wouldn't just
fly off the handle).

Stop the sex, and then work it out from there.

Paula  

    re: .27 
    
    *FLAME ON*
    
    No, Skip, I don't ask for ID when I meet someone in a bar.  Unless it's
    teen night (18 on up) I assume that the person is of legal drinking
    age.  On the other hand, I WOULD ask some simple, basic questions prior
    to becoming "serious" and DEFINITELY prior to sleeping with someone. 
    It doesn't take much to find out what someone's name, age, residence,
    job, or school is.
    
    *FLAME OFF*
    
    I'm not belittling this guy or his problem.  If I asked a girl where
    she was going to school and she said, "Oh I'm home for the summer, I am
    sophomore at Northeastern", I'm not going to call the university and
    check.  If it's true that she's 15, either A. She's lied to him. or B.
    He didn't ask the right questions.  He should definitely find out
    which.  If she lied to him, that's grounds for "cancellation" in my
    book.  If she just never told him and thought he knew, then he should
    really decide whether the relationship is worth it.
    
    It's my opinion that it's not worth it and that he should (and will) come
    to realize that he's better off with girls that are older and closer to
    his own age.
    
       - Larry

    ...also regarding the "talk with her parents" suggestion.  I'm not sure
    that her parents would be pleased to learn that their little baby is
    getting into 21 and older bars with a fake id.  I doubt that she'd want
    her parents to find out that they met in a bar.
    
       - Larry  

    Larry, Reference your FLAME ONE:
    
    The point I was trying to make is that when meeting in a bar it
    is safe to assume the person is of legal age.  His being 22, would
    even on teen night, make her within an "appropriate" age range for
    him.  So I really think your FLAME was not necessary.  Further,
    I have never asked a woman her age... most feel it is just plain
    bad manners to do so.  I have dated women from 9 years younger to
    5 years older then me.  I've never bothered to ask any of them there
    age nor offer mine in exchange.  I assume the ladies I meet in the
    bars are of legal age and don't worry about it.  If I had met her
    somewhere else or under some other circumstances, maybe it would
    be something to question and worry about, but having met in a bar,
    I maintain that age would not have been a subject that would need
    to be considered.  So mellow out!
    
    Now as to the talk with her parents.  If she is underage and running
    around in bars... then I think they need to be aware of it.  Especially
    if he decides to drop the relationship.... it will difuse her ability
    to blackmail him into a relationship.  (If you don't take me out
    tonight, I'm going to tell my parents that you are 22 and we've
    been sleeping together).  It is a possible threat that can come
    up depending on her deviousness, and maturity.  Also I did not say
    he should immediatly go and tell all to them.  I stated that it
    depended on his relationship with them.  How well he knew them,
    how well they react to him, and how much they like him.  If they
    are mature and realistic, once he broches the subject and explains
    the situation... that is tells them, hey I met her in a bar, I didn't
    know she was 15, assuming that her being in a bar indicated that
    she was close to my age.  They will understand and not fault him,
    even if they insist that he NOT see her anymore.  Further, it could
    save the next guy in some bar from doing the same thing.  Once they
    are aware of her going to and hanging out in a bar, they will be
    more watchful of what she is doing in the future.  
    
    As I said before, I am trying to offer solutions to his problem
    and trying to be realistic in that he is going to have problems
    regardless if he decides to try and continue the relationship or
    not. 
    
    Now again I ask you, if you were to walk into the bar that he was
    at.  See a 5'10" girl who is a "flaming knockout" talk a bit with
    her and find you both have things in common, and find yourself strongly
    attracted to her, the first thing you are going to do is ask her
    to show you some ID?  I don't think so... especially if she hints
    at a sexual attraction as well.  You are going to assume she is
    somewhere close to your age and try to figure out where to go from
    there.
    
    Regards,
    Skip

    
    	A co-worker of mine at my former employer went to jail for
    	1 year for having sex with a minor (statutory rape?).
    
    	He met the girl at a Hampton Beach bar and... well...
    
    	I don't remember all the details, but it was the parents that
    	filed the charges. The fact that the girl was in a bar made no
    	difference.
    
    	Fortunately for him, the employer gave him a leave, and his current
    	girlfriend stuck by him.
    
    	Guy
    

    re: .35
    
    Skip,
    
       Like I said in my previous reply, no, I would not ask someone her
    age if I had just met her.  I do consider exclusively seeing someone
    for two months a "relationship", and by that time, yes, I'd expect to
    know her age, her background, her interests, as she should know mine.
    I don't know, maybe I'm missing the point, but at my age (and his age)
    most men and women are not embarassed to tell their real age (or at
    least an approximation) once in a relationship.  Without knowing
    anything about her, if she was a graduate of a four year university,
    then I could guess that she was at least 21.  If she just graduated
    from high school, I could guess that she was approx. 18.  A simple
    question of "What high school did you go to?" could reveal an approx.
    age.  I don't consider THAT question getting too personal, do you?
                             
       This topic can probably digress to another important issue of how
    well do men and women know each other in a relationship, and how well
    SHOULD they know each other.  
    
       Regards,
          Larry  

    The more I read and think of this topic the more I (hopefuly)
    understand. I can see you walking into a bar and meeting some bodtious
    creature with lovely ta-ta's and your opening lines are:
    
    1. Have you been exposed to HIV virous?
    2. Are you a minor in desised as an adult?
    3. Are you a double agent checking up on me and my moralities of work?
    
    Your probably going to go home with out the honner to meet such.
    I guess these are the problems of the 20th century and there isn't
    too much to do execpt cover the back side. And lead with your logic and
    heart vs the loins. And this has been a problem in our society since
    the dawn of purbity. Too bad, this girl is really cheating herself out
    of the last hours of being kid. Enjoying perhaps some of the simple
    things of comaradory of fellow high school students and such. Maybe she
    will  go from one home to another without the chance of getting out on
    her own for a while. Perhaps she is trying to do just that. Feels
    trapped at home and is maybe looking for the next father figure in her
    life to carry her away. Good luck little girl!

    It still makes sense to me to completely back off till you have all the
    facts, and you can diffuse the "trump card". Finding out from parents
    is the surest way, but how you approach them depends on the type of
    people they are. At any rate don't do anything more till all that is
    settled.
    
    ....Bob

    Bob in four lines you've said the same thing I've been trying to
    say.  Thanks! 
    
    Larry, I understand the point you are making now, you use the "what
    school did you go to" line as a way to ascertain the age of the
    woman.  My problem in understanding that is that by the time I was
    old enough to drink legally, I was no longer in the area I'd grown
    up at.  Having joined the Navy at 17.  When I did get back to my
    home area again, it didn't matter.  So, I related to what you were
    saying from my own experiences.  Asking a girl what school she went
    to never entered my mind.  I didn't know any of the local schools
    and even as a graduate from a High School, when asked what school
    I'd graduated from I would simply say "Carson" not "Carson High"
    Being in a different local then that area, no one would know if
    Carson were a local city college, high school or for that matter
    elementary school.  
    
    Sorry for the confusion but things make some sense now.  For you
    the line would work as you are in an area where you would be familiar
    with the various schools.
    
    For me, I graduated in the Los Angeles School District.  Some 800
    high schools belong to that district.  So it makes the answer a
    little harder for me to gage in the way of age. 
    
    Different aspects of different life styles I guess.  
    
    Skip

    Thanks, Skip.  I didn't mean to blow up before.  Actually, I use that
    "What school did you go to" line w/out knowing the local area high
    schools.  Back home I know the local schools, but where I go to
    college, and where I'm living now, I'm clueless.  If they say "Clinton"
    and Clinton is a junior high school, I guess that I could get caught
    too.  But after you start getting to know someone, there are those
    clues that help you approximate age, without having to ask directly.
    
    
    For example,
    
    Liking "New Kids on the Block" is a dead giveaway.  No one over the age
    of 19 likes that group.  So if you see a New Kids poster...get out of
    there fast!
    
       - Larry    ;-)
                     

    Boy, that beats Oil of Olay!  I'm gettin' a New Kids poster, pronto!

re: .41
    
    >    Liking "New Kids on the Block" is a dead giveaway.  No one over the age
    >    of 19 likes that group.  So if you see a New Kids poster...get out of
    >    there fast!
    
    Not true, I'm 31 and I like their music.  I happen to think they are
    very tallented.
    
    Lori B.

Re: .43

Yes, and so were "The Archies"...

A word of advise on the age of consent in mass:

As I have always heard it (from police and social workers...)

If both partners are under 16, there isn't much they can do...

if both are under 18, the age of consent is 16,

if either are over 18, the age of consent is 18...

So the poor lad has three years, not one, to wait...

grins,

clark.

    Im sorry I haven't responded sooner,  but I didn't see my best friend for
    a couple of days, so I didn't know what was going on.  I have shown him
    all of your responses and he says thank you for the advice as well as
    the examples that you have given him.  I sat down and had a long talk 
    with him in order to find out where his head is at and what he plans
    on doing.  Believe me, he definitely knows what a dangerous position he
    has put himself in because of this relationship.
    
    First let me answer a couple of questions that have popped  up in the
    notes.  She has admitted to the fact that she really is ONLY  15, it
    wasn't just a joke by her cousin.  Her uncle owns the store 
    and he allows her to work there part-time, which he pays to her under
    the table. If you have ever been to this town, you would know
    that you really don't need an automobile in order to get around the
    city, everything is whithin walking distances once you hit the center
    of town,  which is why a driving license never came into question. 
    Also I have worked as both a bodyguard and a bouncer at nightclubs, and
    the bouncer's main  objective is to allow as many good looking women as
    he can into the place. For the reason that once your club is known for
    having nice looking women in there, the men come around like flies,
    which means more $$$$. Because then you can jack up the admissions
    price and the amount of alcohol consumption. Most of the minors know
    this, which is the reason why they wear the shortest mini skirts and
    the Fredericks of Hollywood tops, so that they will stand out in line
    and the bouncers are more apt to pick them to go into the club. So when
    this 15 year old girl walks in with a dress that shows off her great
    figure and smiles and bats her eyes, the bouncers don't look twice at
    her fake I.D. ( I went double dating with them once, and at two of the
    clubs we went  to the bouncers didnt even ask her for I.D. They were
    too busy checking her out.)  And as strange as it may seem the subject
    of age just never really came into discussion between the two of them
    until the day he found out.
    
    It seems that she told him that she goes to clubs because  she really
    isn't interested in guys her own age, she added that if he really cared
    for her then the matter that she is only 15 shouldn't stand in their
    way. I guess he really laid into her for lying to him and for putting
    him in a compromising position, at this point she started crying and
    begging him not to dump her (tears, every mans weakness.) She told him
    that it wouldn't be a very good idea to tell her mother how old he was
    because she would have a fit. (Her father lives on the other side of
    the country.) 
    
    He has told me that he plans to continue seeing her because he really
    cares for her, but that he plans to stop having sex with her until  she
    reaches 16, which is in 8 months.  To which I replied "Yea right!! " I
    basically told him that " there is no way on earth that you can still
    date this girl after you've already slept with her, and then decide
    that you aren't going to have sex with her anymore. Your hormones just
    don't work that way!!! At this point he agreed with me and said that
    would be close to impossible.   You have to understand that this girl
    is the kind that most young men dream about, the kind they have posters
    of on their walls. She is definitely hot, so to suggest to just stop
    having sex with her and to continue dating her at  the same time is not
    realistic. The only thing I could do was to keep pointing  out how much
    trouble he is in for if he gets caught, or if he pisses her off. But
    unfortunately I dont think that it worked because he still plans on
    seeing her.  I told him to be very careful with this one because he is
    playing with a loaded gun, and God help him if he gets her pregnant. The
    only thing I can do is wait and hope that this won't backfire on him. I
    care for this man like he is my brother and it would hurt me a lot if
    something were to happen to him over this relationship. But when
    someone is in love I guess they just aren't receptive to common sense.  
    
    Thank you for your advice.

Well, you've offered your advise and the advise posted thus far... it's
    his call and there isn't much you can do about it.  To continue
    telling him he's making a mistake will only serve to place a wedge
    in your friendship.  
    
    From what you've said about him, I personally (and it is my own
    opinion) think he's confused lust and love rather grossly.  Especially
    if "Hormones get in the way".  I KNOW that that line is one of the
    biggest lines of BS in the world.  A man's brain is in his head...
    not between his legs... it's a matter of rather or not he chooses
    to realize it.  
    
    Skip

    I agree with Skip.  "Hormones getting in the way" is not a mature
    reason for having sex with someone, IMHO.  If he DID stop sleeping with
    her, I wonder how long she'd still be interested in him.  A pessimistic
    attitude on my part, but I really wish this girl would realize that
    being 15 is a beautiful thing and your teenage years are gone before
    you know it.  He should realize that her being "dead drop gorgeous" is not
    the most important reason for staying in a relationship where the
    consequences are so grave. 
    
    Of course, I remember when I was in my teens, I couldn't wait to be
    "grown up".               
    
         - Larry

    The following reply has been contributed by a member of our community
    who wishes to remain anonymous.  If you wish to contact the author by
    mail, please send your message to QUARK::HR_MODERATOR, specifying the
    conference name and note number. Your message will be forwarded with
    your name attached  unless you request otherwise.

				Steve






    
    Re. .0
    
    
    
    This story sounds so familiar.......except I was the young girl in the
    story.
    
    
    When I had just turned 14, in the summer of '85, my friend and I went
    to Hampton Beach. We were walking up and down the strip and a
    nice-looking older guy on a motorcycle stopped and said, "I want you on
    my bike". So, I got on his bike. He was 19, which seemed VERY old  to
    me at the time. 
    
    It so happened that he was from the same town as me (about 60 miles
    away from Hampton) and I knew who he was, once he told me his name, (I
    didn't know what he looked like, but, I had HEARD about him....his
    looks, all the girls that were dying to date him...etc...) and then I
    was shocked!!! So, when he asked me my name, I told him my first name
    only (surely he would know my father!) and continued to tell him that I
    knew the name of his dog, his sisters and brothers, what kind of car he
    just bought, who his best friend was, what street he lived on, etc...
    Then I told him my last name, and immediately, he knew I was th
    daughter of Mr.-------. Then he asked how old I was, I told him, he
    told me to get  off the bike, and said, "Wow, I can't believe you are
    ONLY 14, I can imagine what you'll look like at 19! Call me in five
    years." Then he left. I was IN LOVE!! I was flattered that a 19 year
    old found me the 14 year old attractive!! I couldn't wait 5 years, and
    I was very depressed that I would have to wait that long! 
    
    We did end up bumping into each other around town....
    
    We went out occasionally....
     
    I asked him to sleep with me....he said he never would....I was too
    young.....
    
    I asked again a year later (at 15), and he agreed....he was scared
    because I was 15 and he was 20......
    
    Over the next few years we both had relationships with people our own
    age, but we both cheated on our SO's with each other......
    
    I told him I loved him.....he got mad.....I cried...
    
    I thought about him all the time....
    
    I knew it was love....
    
    It's now 1990, I'm 19, he's 24, and we are together and never want to
    be apart....
    
    Things wouldn't have turned out this way if we hadn't seen people our 
    own age....very important....
    
    If you want to talk to me.....get hold of the moderator....I can give
    you more details on how your friend can cope.....
    
    Good luck.....best wishes....
    

Hi,

   I don't know how to put this and I want to be as gentle as possible
   (without coming off as some right-wing extremest), but here goes.

   When someone commits a felony, anyone who has any knowlege of that
   felony is obligated to report it, or he (himself) will be subject to
   prosecution as an accessary.

   Your friend's girlfriend will be 16 in 8 months? In other words, she
   is closer to 14 than 16. Even turning 16 will mean nothing (have you
   read reply .45? He has to wait til she is 18 before having any relationship
   (other than an adult/child one).

   And God help him if he ever buys her a drink or 
   crosses a state line with her. The later is known as kidnapping, reguardless
   of whether or not she gives her consent. A sexual relationship is
   known as rape and child molesting, again, reguardless of whether or 
   not she gives her consent.

   She is a CHILD, legally, emotionally, ethically, etc... everything but
   physically. Your friend is being led by the grotch. This is not an
   adult relationship.

   She says, "If you really care for me, the fact that I'm 15 shouldn't
   stand in the way." Sounds like child-like manipulation to me...
   If she had cared for your friend, wouldn't she have told him how old
   she was, rather than letting him find out this way.

   Further, your friend has put YOU in jeopardy. You have knowledge of this
   crime. Further still, YOU have involved the moderators. Now they have
   knowledge of you.

   I sincerely hope you print this reply and show it to your friend.
   This is no threat, I am simply trying to show him just how vulnerable
   he is. Though 22 is too old to have a sexual relationship with a 15
   year old, he is still young, himself. 

   If your friend truly cared about this person, he would let her go,
   no matter how much it hurts. He needs to act like a responsible adult,
    not someone who is going to be selfish just to have a sexual
   relationship with a "hot babe".
    
   I know the typical response to that will be "Well, he doesn't understand
   my true feelings for her." To which I would say, "Pal, I understand more
   than you know!"
    
   If he doesn't want to be 32 and dancing in the shower with a man named
   Quido, he better stop letting the little head do the thinking for the
   big head.

   Get the picture?

john...

    Well said, only one thing... the Mods wouldn't, and
    could not get in trouble as it's all Hersay (sp) evidence.  
    
    Skip  (I asked our corp lawyer about that one)
                                                  
                             

I've been reading this note with interest because it reminds me of a family
situation.  When my niece Michelle was 14, she started to date Paul who was
19 at the time, and her parents knew it. Now Paul was a very nice guy, but
the fact remained that Michelle was jail bait.  They dated for 2 years before
they finally slept together, but Paul was 21 by that time, and Michelle was 16,
still considered jail bait in RI.  And guess what. Michelle got pregnant
practically the first time they slept together and had Christina (who was
quite a surprise, but that's another story that you'd probably never believe!)
when she was 17.  Prosecuting Paul for statutory rape was seriously considered,
but charges were never filed, only because everyone liked Paul and it seemed
so minor when looking at the whole picture and trying to sort out what to do
next.  Paul wanted to marry Michelle as he was truly in love with her, and had
been for a few years, but she hadn't had time to grow up yet, and didn't want
any part of it.  Now, Christina is 5 years old, Michelle has dumped Paul, who
is still crushed because he is so in love with her, and she has gone on to 
date men her own age, something she really should have been doing when she was
younger.  5 years is not a big deal when you're both in your 20's and beyond,
but it's quite another story when one person is 14 or 15, and the other is 19
or 20.

I know that your friend thinks he is in love with this girl, but it certainly
sounds like lust to me, especially when all the emphasis is on how beautiful
she is, and how men would kill to be seen with such a beautiful creature.  My
niece also fits that category. She's been modelling for a few years, and has a
contract for a RI agency who has lent her out to one of the bigger agencies in
Boston.   And I wonder how much that had to do with her being so attractive
to a 19-year-old boy.  I can't even imagine what your friend has in common to
talk about with a 15-year-old since I would think their interests would be
so different.  I think he's asking for thouble, and really needs to consider
what he's getting himself into.

    re .50
    
    I couldn't get my words straight, but that sums up my feelings pretty
    well.
    
    ....Bob

    I wanted to add a few things.
    
    
    If their love is real, it will endure. It will be very painful to see
    the other with someone else. When I was 15, I thought I knew
    everything. I looked older, everyone thought I was 4-5 years older than
    I really was, I felt older, I also grew up VERY fast and missed out on
    some regular Jr. High and High School stuff. At 14, I was hanging out
    with people 20+. I also went through the whol drug scene at an early
    age. That was very scary and confusing. Although hanging out with the
    older crowd was for the most part, a "BAD" thing, there was a good
    part....I am alot smarter and ALOT less naive than my 19 year old
    friends. Thank God! But, I also think that it took a certain maturity
    when I was 14 to handle  everything the way I did, and I don't think
    that many kids that age today could deal as well. 
    
    A fifteen year old dating a twenty-two year old IS a BIG  deal. He can
    get in ALOT of trouble. In fact, I know four guys (22 to 24) that are
    being charged with rape, and all they did was let this girl (18) get in
    the car with them to give her a ride home. No big deal, right? WRONG.
    He's not going to be all lovey-dovey if this girl ever turned on him.
    It will be his worst nightmare. It's not worth it. He will say, "She
    would never do that to me!". But you NEVER know what can happen, and
    believe me, you don't want to find out.
    
          
    If they were meant to be, they will end up together at a later  time.
    Let her go! It has to be done. But talk to her first, don't just walk
    away. If she is as mature as she looks, she will understand, and go her
    way.....if she isn't understanding, get the hell out of there. This is
    corny, but you know that poem......
    
    
             If you love something, set it free
             If it comes back to you, it's yours...
             If it doesn't, it wasn't meant to be....
    
                                (or something along those lines :-))
    
    
    I hope this helps even a tiny bit......

Just a nit from a previous note -

Transporting minors accross states lines, presumably for illicit/immoral 
reasons, is not kidnapping.  It is what is known as the Man Act.

Kidnapping requires one person to not want to go.  The man act is just the 
federal version of statutory...

The penalties are about the same however, and you do have to be caught in the
"act" for it to apply...

Btw, taking a minor who is a friend accross state lines is not illegal, unless
you end up sleeping with them on the other side of the line...

grins,

clark.

    Anybody know the age of consent in New Hampshire?
    
    Maryann
    

    
    A classic is a book which people praise highly but never read.
    
    A good test of the worth is the number of times you can read it with
    profit.
    
    A book is a success when people who haven't read it pretend they have.
    
                                  RM