Conference quark::human_relations-v1

    Tom's not really a very good friend is he? If he was he would be
    honest with Ted? and let hm know about things.. I get this funny
    feeling that Tom and Ted? will not be talking with each other for 
    very much longer!! Just my opinion!

    "The city where we live
    might be quite large
    but the circle is small
    why not tell us all
    and then all of us will know"
    
    'The Circle is Small' Gordon Lightfoot
    
    Funny how people think they can hide something that's glaringly
    obvious. What does Tom think Ted is going to do when he finds
    out the truth ? Shake his hand? If you can't be upfront about
    your relationships you're not ready for a relationship.

    If Tom is strongly attracted to Lisa, then, as a friend of Joe's,
    Tom should consider holding off on the relationship until Joe has
    had a chance to deal with his own catharsis.  Once that is
    accomplished, if he were a real friend he would approach Joe and
    ask him of his feelings about it.  Of course that would depend on
    how deep there friendship really is.  But as it stands, my personal
    opinion is that Tom is a self satisfying jerk, with no regard whatever
    for his "best" friends feelings.  If he thinks he can pull of a
    "secret" relationship with Liza that Joe will "never know about".
    
    All I can say is the truth always comes out,  sooner or later someone
    who knows them both will say something and the results will be very
    devistating for Joe.
    
    IMHO of course.
    
    Skip

    In my opinion Tom needs to tell Joe that he is seeing lisa. When Joe
    finds out one of the first auwful feelings he could have is that
    Tom is telling her everything. Even if hes not the feelings of 
    disloyalty are strong and he is likly to think the most stupid
    things first if he gets to the angry/betrayal mode. 
    
    If every one knows then Joe has the opportunity to get support
    from a more comfortable (to him)source and the possiblility of
    Tom losing a friend by the time Joe comes to terms with his
    feelings about the breakup are slimmer. By keeping the relationship,
    reguardless of how small an issue it seems now, a secret, It could
    be blown up all out of proportion and be bigger that if he gets used 
    to the idea and uses some other source for the sounding board everyone
    needs to have to get through grief. 
    
    Grieving involves a lot of emotions and anger is one of them. Tom
    has put himself in the center of a situation that could lose him 
    a friend. He may feel that it is worth it. Joe should be guided
    to use another friend for a listening ear. I believe Tom should
    let Joe know just because they are friend. Being friends is not easy
    and it requires looking at what is best for them also and weighing
    the hurts. I would rather have my friend know from me than find out
    and be more hurt because I kept it from them.
    
    RE.4
    
    I just assumed that he would continue the relationship I relised now
    that if it were me trying to comfort a friend I would not agree to
    go out with his/her ex til after I had discussed it with the friend 
    involved. I had a friend once try to get me to date one of the men
    she had been dating and wanted to stop seeing.  I declined.
    
    Something just doesn't feel right when I think about this situation.
    janet
    

    these name have been changed to protect the innocent.  Just an FYI

    
    Just give me a moment to adjust my armor...there...
    
    I agree [I'll get the easy part out of the way first] that Tom should
    tell Joe. Probably not foir the same reasons...I think he should so
    Joe does not run the risk of being embarassed at a later date by things
    he may have said to Tom.
    
    But...[be gentle, it's new armor]...why do people think there is some
    'goodness' rule about not dating a friends *EX*girlfriend? What is she,
    chattel? Did he have a 12 month lease or something? Did Tom sign a
    'Agreement not to compete' clause?
    
    Yes, I know you all think I am callus b**...but hold on here. Just
    because Jane Doe dates a man for 12 months it doesn't mean that no one
    they both know should ever date her when she stops dating man #1. What
    does Tom being Joe's friend have to do with his feelings or hers?
    She is *no longer* dating Joe...this is not a case of 'cheating' [ahhh,
    I hate that word. They are both free adults if legal age...right? Why
    should they not see each other if they wish.
    
    And as far as telling Joe...I reallt think it is none of his business
    whom Tom dates and whom he does not. The only reason I think he should
    be told is as I mentioned at first...because of a possible conflict of
    trust. And that could be done as simply as "Joe, I'm sorry, I don;t
    think I can talk to you about this in the futre. Please don't
    continue." Just because they are friends doesn't mean they have to live
    inseide each other's hip pocket.
    
    I think tom is getting a bum rap.
    
    Melinda
    

    Sandy,
    
    	looks like your getting some good mileage out of this. Seeing
    that this topic shows up in the Singles notes file. ;-)
    
    George

    I've been both a "Joe" and a "Tom" with slight variations.
    
    As a "Joe" I had to understand that life is too short and happy
    relationships are too rare for you to harbor resentment because
    of a bruised ego.
    
    As a "Tom" I had to allay my guilt and fear and proceed openly and
    honestly while keeping in mind that the relationship was between
    myself and the woman.  The rest of the world could accept it or
    go hang gliding.
    
    Kris

    I am glad and so should be all involved, that our original love birds
    are not married and Tom is not messing around with this guys wife, that
    is if she is/was. I think that Tom should give Joe the respect and
    leave this woman alone. If she is doing this to Joe, and Tom and Lisa
    get involved with something seroius. With the charater signatue of Lisa
    she may start messing around with some other men when she gets tired of
    Tom, Joe, Frank, Bill what ever. I think BOTH parties soundly say to
    Lisa to buzz off. She sounds like she is 'A' moral. We are suposingly 
    to promigate monogumas relationships? Not here with this love triangle.
    
    George 

Purely from personal experience:

Dateing a friends ex, especially if it is a good friend, is bad magik.

It only gets worse when the relationship was long/involved and the breakup
caused a bit of trauma...

My personal advice is to duck and cover when all this comes out into the light..

grins and luck,

clark.

    Isn't it normal that two best friends might have the same interests and
    that a person that appealed to one would appeal to the other. I don't
    think this sort of triangle is unusual. It's certainly a standard in
    the realm of fiction.

    The only problem here is that the "original" suiter is not aware of the
    new arrangement. That's the only deception that I see and I do think
    that should be corrected. I don't think the woman is "off limits" just
    because of a previous relationship. liesl

    I have been in a triangle like this and when the dust settled I was
    out a good friend and a woman, who I felt wasn't worth it at all.
    She is out there in space someplace, perhaps messing aound with someone
    else's husband or what ever. Who knows.... I have never seen this
    close male friend agian. 

    No time to read all the replies, but........
    
    Nothing wrong with Tom dating Lisa, but he should tell Joe now, rather
    than have Joe find out another way, later..............
    
    I don't really think Tom and Lisa are wrong. All three of them are
    adults, and...........
    
    ....Bob

re .9 & .12

Hang on a minute! Just cos you had a bad experience I don't think you can 
condemn Lisa in the way that you do - you don't even know her!

What you are saying is that this woman is doing something wrong cos she got
a new boyfriend two months after splitting up.... so what?

The only A-moral thing is that Tom is letting Joe make a fool of himself...

Joe should be told, then if he still wants to confide in Tom then fine...

maybe Tom and Lisa should tell Joe together?



Xtine

ps. who was Ted?

    re .14
    
    agreed, and better worded than .13
    
    ....Bob

    Well, from my point of view... it breaks down to several things.
    
    1) the strength of the relationship/friendship between Tom and Joe
       
    	  a) is it strong and open enough to survive Joe finding out that
          Lisa is dating Joe?  In some of the personal experiences sited
          earlier, the friendships did not survive.

    2) the morality of the girl asking to date someone she knows to
       be her former "lover's" best friend.
    
          a) this hinges on just exactly what the relationship was.
             Personal experience shows me that sometimes one of the
             two have feelings that the other just does not realize
             nor respricates.  
    
             Example:  I was very much in love with a girl once who
             only thought of me as a friend.  Once she realized what
             my real feelings were, she stopped seeing me because she
             she felt it would only hurt me more, to continue in the
             relationship the way it was.
    
    3)  The morales of people are obviously different in this situation.
    I personally would wonder how close a friend my best friend really
    were to go out with the girl in the first place, knowing how I felt
    about her.  But then again, I wonder if (becasue I can't really
    say one way or the other) If I felt a strong attraction/desire to
    know a girl who'd been involved with my closest friend, would I
    ignore those feelings and forget about it?  Hard to say... I might,
    deciding that my friendship was too important to risk jeapordizing
    it.  Or I might decide that my personal right to possible happiness
    was worth the risk to my friendship.  I can't honestly answer that
    question because I'd never been in the situation, I know how I would
    like to answer it.  But, I learned a long time ago that even a persons
    personal morals are subject to change once faced with reality.
    
    SKip
    

<    question because I'd never been in the situation, I know how I would
<    like to answer it.  But, I learned a long time ago that even a persons
<    personal morals are subject to change once faced with reality.
<    
<    SKip
    
    That's certainly one of the lessons life has taught me too. It's
    amazing what can happen when love (sometimes even just lust) enters
    the picture.

    What seems so morally right when you aren't one of the parties involved
    becomes a lot more confusing when it's *your* heart feeling the emotions.

    As a Persian poem puts it "The eyes know a hundred tears, and the soul
    knows a hundred sighs". Judge not..etc and so on. liesl

    Thanks leisl,  the reason I entered my last reply is that I made
    my first one based on my own morals as they stand at this moment.
    Then I stopped and started to think seriously about the situation
    and tried to put my self in both of their's position.  Finally I
    realized that I couldn't make judgement on them because I kept coming
    up with... "But what if you REALLY liked the girl? Wouldn't it be
    worth the possible damage?  Could you like her enough to risk it?"
    
    I reminded myself that as a friend of his, I would have been exposed
    to her and been able to evaluate her during there relationship.
    Forming opinions and values about her. I realized that there have
    been a couple of circumstances in my past when I'd met a friends
    girlfriend when I thought to myself "Gee, too bad she's attracted
    to him instead of me."  I never allowed myself to persue the thought
    further, but I wonder if I'd been continually exposed to her, and
    then learned that she had stopped seeing him and was interested
    in seeing me... what would I do?  It's hard to say.  It would depend
    on the situation and the reality of it at the time.  It's something
    to be considered when making a reply here.
    
    Skip

    Probably a re-hash of whatever I said before, but if Lisa isn't
    dating Joe any more, for whatever the reason, ther is nothing wrong
    with her dating Tom, however that started. Joe is going to have to
    accept that, because Tom and Lisa have a right to date. They shouldn't
    have to throw away what could possibly be a very good relationship
    simply because it might bother Joe, who at this point doesn't have
    a relationship with Lisa any more. If Joe is mature he should be able
    to understand this, and handle it. But they should tell him soon, and
    let the chips fly where they may. But the sooner they do it the sooner
    any healing that is needed can take place.
    
    ....Bob