Conference quark::human_relations-v1

    I feel a lot of sympathy for your daughter.  She's not happy living
    there, but, being 15, she doesn't have a lot of options.  So she
    tries to make the best of it and lead a separate life as much as
    possible, being self-sufficient to the extent that she can (such as
    doing her own laundry).  Basically, she's marking time.

    I am not at all surprised that paying her for chores did not work.
    It sounds as if, in effect, you dictated the job (chores) and the 
    wages and she weighed the exchange and decided it wasn't worth it.
    It might not be worth it to her at any price if she considers
    "picking up after other people" unfair.  As long as she picks up
    after herself, I don't think she's being hypocritical about it.

    She's 15. She's in school and "working" most of the day, and she
    is being told that her net contribution to the family is zero
    because her monetary intake from this "job" is zero.  Other family 
    members work all day and, from this, gain the right to dictate the
    terms and conditions of her membership in the family.  Because in
    putting it in the terms you have (weighing her doing chores against
    the things you do for her that she *can't* do for herself), that's
    what you're doing.  You have set up a situation whereby if she wants 
    to keep her self worth intact (and feel like what she spends her
    days doing is indeed worthwhile, and that she is worthwhile in and
    of herself and not simply as "household help"), **she can't do those
    chores**.  

    So, it's not an issue of her contributing to the common good, it's an 
    issue of ransoming her ability to be self-sufficient... not something 
    most 15 year olds like to be reminded of.

    My advice is to stop phrasing it in dealmaking terms ("you live here,
    you do chores" -type of thing).  Remember, she did not choose this
    situation for herself.  Instead, concentrate on making her feel valued 
    as a member of the family for who she is, so that she really feels 
    she's a part of "the common good".  Once she feels like a real member
    of the family, the house outside her room won't feel like such hostile 
    territory and the chores won't seem like such a big deal.   But start 
    by asking her to help you with things you'll both be doing together,
    or she may feel like she's being picked on again.

    Best of luck.  It sounds like a frustrating situation for all of you.

	Sharon

Give her a vacation to Outward Bound(tm) it will give her a whole new outlook
on life it made all the difference in the world for my brother.

-j

> We've tried paying her to do chores, but then she feels that she's cleaning up
> after other people, and she doesn't think that's fair.  She doesn't feel that
> she needs to contribute anything to the household, even though we provide her
> with a place to live, food, clothing, etc.  Basically, I guess she sounds like
> spoiled brat, but she does have some good qualities, and some feelings she
> hides fairly well.

> What I'm looking for here are some ideas to get her motivated, or something to
> show her that indicates we aren't the only parents that expect their children
> to contribute something around the house.  The concept of making a contribution
> for the common good, simply because you live there doesn't seem to be something
> she can understand.

Sounds like a number of things may be going on in this situation.

I agree with .1 and feel that from your description that she's not getting
(or she may feel that she's not getting) some of the less tangible things that 
family unit should [my opinion] be providing to its members.  This could  
result in her not wanting to contribute to the family unit.

Alternately, it's also possible that "you don't talk the way she listens".
People listen and are motivated in different ways than you may be.  If you'd
like to ensure that your communications to her get the maximum ammount of 
receptivity that they can, you can read "Unlimited Power" by Anthony Robbins.
One of the topics he covers is communicating/motivating with maximum 
effectiveness with other people.

Kak

    I have a very good idea of what your daughter is doing. I'm sure there
    are other situations involved, but you're right to start with them
    individually. I was a 14 year old girl not to long ago. I'm only 22. I 
    remember it like it was yesterday. We had chores to do around the
    house. I am the middle child. I have an older brother (24) and a
    younger sister (19). And to this day the never did as much housework as
    I have. Your daughter may have alot of peer pressure from school, with
    boys (14 is a big age for boys) and at the age the parents are quick to
    say no. Which they are right to do, but the daughter won't see it that
    way for a good 5-6 years. I was a very rebellious girl once I hit 13. I
    started causing all sorts of trouble for my parents. Not drugs or
    stealing or anything like that, just typical girl stuff. I wanted to do
    what my girlfriends were doing. You should explain to your daughter
    that you need her help around the house. i.e. dishes, laundry or even
    starting dinner. But don't overload her. I can also relate the the
    stepfather part. I also have a stepfather since I was 7. And the
    stepfather always looks like the bad guy or the outsider. Don't be
    surprised if your daughter says to him "you're not my real father, you
    can't tell me what to do". or something along those lines. It's bound
    to happen. You're daughter will give in some if she's treated more like
    an adult. My mother used to ask me to iron her clothes on a Saturday
    and she said she'd pay me $5.00, which isn't alot of money but it's
    more than I had. and I chose to earn the money. We didn't get a regular
    allowance for the regular housework. At your daughter's age she's old 
    enough to handle the responsibiliy of a few chores. She is the daughter
    and you are the mother, what you say goes. She won't necessarily like it and
    she may scream and say mean things but it is for her own good. In the
    long run she'll be glad. I know this from being in your daughter's
    shoes. I moved out of the house after I graduated and my mother and I
    have become very good friends ever since. When I lived at home we were
    almost always fighting because she had her way and I had mine (when I
    was older) But thanks to my mother being the way she was with me I was
    able and ready to move out on my own. I only moved across the street,
    but it was a first step. 
    
    I hope that this can be of some help to you. I know what you're
    daughter is going through. I wish you luck....
    
    /sandi
    

    RE: .1
    
    Sharon,
    
    That was real wisdom you contributed! Really, I'm very impressed. This
    is a difficult situation, but I think you got right to the heart of it.
    
    Eileen

    I forgot to mention that my stepfather and I get along great now...
    Everything will work out in time. 
    
    /sandi
    

    .0 > She chooses to do her own laundry (but *only* hers).  However, she's
    .0 > always asking us to do things for her - take her somewhere, buy her
    .0 > clothes, let her friends spend the night, etc.
    
    This doesn't make sense to me.  Does she ask you to take her places she
    could easily and safely get on her own?  Does she get a (large enough)
    allowance with the understanding that she is to but her own cloths with
    part of it?  Why is it unreasonable for her to want to have friends
    spend the night?  These items are completely different from her not
    doing your laundry, since you can presumably can do it unaided.  Maybe
    these weren't well chosen examples, but in effect you are asking a 15
    year old kid to stop "imposing" on you, to be an adult with her own
    transportation, income, and guest residence.  She couldn't do those
    things if she wanted, which she apparently does.
    
    If your complaint is the more limited and understandable one that she
    won't pitch in with household chores, I have to ask why the issue is
    coming up now.  I wouldn't expect her to, if you didn't start her out
    on doing so ten years or so ago.  The fact that no such pattern has
    been developed is certainly not _her_ fault.  Frankly, the description
    makes her sound less like a spoiled brat than like a lonely, somewhat
    neglected kid.  I hope you can work toward a better relationship.
    
    		- Bruce

    When I was 15 (gee was it that long ago?) I was very much the same
    way as your daughter.  I asked my parents to take me places, allow
    friends to stay over, did only what was necessary for myself and
    etc.  
    
    My fathers solution was to sit me down one day and explain to me
    that he no longer enjoyed my having guests over, that he would no
    longer give me rides to varied locations nor allow any of the
    "benifits" I came to "expect" while living there.  He further explained
    that due to me lack of helping out, and because his schedule consisted
    of working and then coming home and having to take care of ALL of
    the chores by himself (my mother was an invalid and unable to do
    any of them) he no longer had the time to do those things for me.
     I got the idea gradually and as time passed, I started doing dishes
    when I got home from school, vacuuming the house, doing laundry
    and cooking meals in exchange he started taking me places I wanted
    to go, giving me a regular allowance (not based on how much I did
    but as spending money to do the things I wanted to do).  Allowing
    me to have my friends over from time to time (which I didn't do
    too often because I was always responsibile for cleaning up the
    mess afterwards)  As he put it, there are no free lunches and I
    can not handle the jobs around here on my own and give you free
    rides, entertain your friends and provide meals for you if you are
    not going to be considerate enough to help out.
    
    Skip

    my folks started me REAL early.  I *earned* that 25 cents a week
    allowance!  I did dishes, washed and folded laundry, helped around the
    house....
    
    When the allowance stopped at 8th grade and I had to start earning my
    pin-money, I was still expected to help around the house (kind of like
    "earning my keep" - sort of work-for-rent - you know?)....
    
    A lot of it was just maintained by the respect I held for my parents -
    they expected me to help, so I did.  I didn't think it was unfair - and
    it was cheaper than paying rent!
    
    -Jody
    

    When I was growing up, my mom and the woman next door had an ongoing
    debate on how to raise kids.  
    
    My mom didn't make us lift a finger.  She felt we should stay kids. She
    periodically tried bribing us with wages (2 cents for cleaning the
    bathroom sink, 4 cents for cleaning the toilet, etc.) or setting up
    rules, but it didn't work because we knew she wouldn't enforce
    anything.  She did ALL the laundry, ALL the cooking, ALL the cleaning.
    
    Mrs. Lowenguth (we were lazy children, but we were very polite!) made
    the kids do the dishes as soon as they could get a stool up to the
    sink.  She was always asking them to do errands and get things for her
    and usually had conditions like "do X before I'll give you permission
    to do y".
    
    At the time I'm thinking of, neither woman worked outside the home. 
    Both (eventually) had 5 kids.  All 10 of us have learned to make our
    way in the world, and we're all self-sufficient.  So upbringing doesn't
    make or break a person's character -- I wouldn't worry about this,
    long-term.
    
    The short-term is driving you crazy, though.  Your description of her
    reminded me of my sister, who I always thought was a spoiled brat
    because she was uncooperative, then would demand to get all kinds of
    things.  But she outgrew it and she's fine now.  Part of it might be
    being 15 -- teenhood is a time of self-discovery and utter
    self-involvement.
    
    I agree that *if* you haven't expected and enforced her helping out in
    the house in the past, she is less likely to start just because you're
    asking her now.  Remembering my childhood, I'm impressed she does her
    own laundry!  :-)  Setting up rules for her may not work, because they
    are not rules she wants to have.  Perhaps you and she could sit down
    and talk about what *she* wants and expects from living with you and
    your husband.  Setting up rules together, for *all* of you to follow --
    and negotiating those rules together -- may work well.
    
    Good luck with the counseling, and remember to be there with an open
    mind about what's going on!  Sometimes it's easy to think you know what
    the problems are ... your checklist of problems going in may be very
    different from the one you end up actually working on ... just a
    thought.
    
    Pam

I didn't mean to give the impression that I have any problems doing things
such as providing transportation, letting friends stay over, etc.  These are
things I expect to do as a parent.  

But the way I was brought up, everyone was expected to contribute something
to the household, in the way of chores and cleaning.  As it is, she is deriving
the basic benefits (food, clothing, shelter) but expecting a free ride.  I
won't give her an allowance if she does nothing around the house, so we provide
her with spending money and rides on weekends, when she meets her friends at a
movie.  I also buy her clothes, contact lenses, and everything else she needs.
My husband put her through modeling school.  Our expectations are that she
help out around the house, but we're met with resistance and complaints.  If
I ask her to do something, chances are she'll say something along the lines
of "I can't do that now - I have to polish my nails," even though it's something
simple that would take about 10 minutes of her time.  Or she says she'll do it
later. Then she doesn't do it, and I do.

She's very independent, probably due to the fact that I was working fulltime
and going to school nights during a large portion of her childhood, and was a
single parent until recently.  We don't have many interests in common, so when
I ask her to go somewhere with me she always declines unless it's going 
shopping. Someone asked her to go to the library with them, and her reply was,
"I don't read."  She sits around the house and does nothing except talk on the
phone with her friends all day and all night (she sleeps all morning during
summer vacation).  It would be nice to see her interested in something, but
modeling is the only thing she has stuck with so far.

"What's a mother to do?"

I hate reminding my daughter what her chores are. I do use a 
variety of reminders to help her stay motivated about helping.

She is 11 and her specific assigned chores are 
1. Keep room neat vacuum once every two weeks.
2. Empty Dishwasher
3. Put away folded laundry(she puts away her brothers clothes
   and her own clothes we do ours and the linens).

When she asks if she can go someplace or do something with someone
I ask her if her room is tidy and the clothes are put away. If she tells
me yes she usually is allowed to go(depends on the activity). I wont
even consider the activity unless the chores are done(exceptions are
made sometimes when she asks exceptionally nice and it seems to mean
a lot to her).

It has happened when she has said yes and the chore was not completed
or was halfway completed__putting all the folded clothes on the floor
of her bedroom closet does not constitute putting away clothes__ When
this occurs she is denied the next few requests or an upcoming event
is scheduled for denial unless she can do something to redeem herself 
and several activities are suggested.
Cleaning the bathroom,
Sweeping and mopping the kitchen floor
tidying the living room
vacuuming the basement
scrubbing the walls in a given room
the list of things she has been trained to do on a one time basis 
is ongoing. I always attack the lying and how I cant trust people
who lie. I always remind her that I know she is a trustworthy person
and does not need to resort to lying.

My four year old son is learning how to fold up the clothes he
throws on the floor. His assigned tasks are a follows
Tidy your room/Put away toys and clothes.
Set Table for meals.
Sweep kitchen floor.

He does not have as many requests for going places but when we
are in a store he wants me to get this or that. I will sometimes
think that a toy is appropriate and ask him if his room is tidy.
This usually brings a no answer or a story about how Angela
(his older sister)came in a threw all the clothes on the floor.
I usually don't buy the toy. 

Some of the things that he has been trained to do for me that are
one time requests or can be done to redeem himself are:
Clean the tub
Clean the trash can
Pick up litter in the yard
pick up toys his little brother has left on the floor(usually the
hallway)

Johnathan is still at the stage where I am glad he comes when he is 
called. Getting a no from a not quite two year old is real annoying
sometimes. We are teaching him how to pick  up after himself and 
clean up his messes.-- When he spills a drink I guide his hands as
he wipes up the spill-- When he is done playing we guide his hands
as he is forced to pick up the toys. The concept that he is responsible 
for his messes helps out a little later when we will start to introduce
potty training.

I have tried to make the children responsible for one new thing
every year about the time of their birthday __
A child around two learns how to dress himself. Well when John is two
I will start being more passive in his dressing and give him the space to
try and fail. I will(TRY to) wait to be asked to help before I jump in.
I have already started giving him his socks to try to put on and let him
try before I actually do put them on and then I talk through what I am doing 
and go pretty carefully and even guide his hands as we do it together.He still
cant get them past his arch but he tries and is praised highly for it.
All the children are judged according to what I think their ability is and
I try to suggest that they rinse the tub one more time or remind them that 
the sauce pans go in the right side of the cupboard and the "tupper junk"
goes on the left.

This does not work well all the time and I blow up. I have learned to 
be very articulate about what I perceive to be the last straw. And try to 
remind all my children that I love them and I get so frustrated When I cant
find what I want because someone didn't put it away when they used it last
(this comes under cleaning up their own messes) or when a job I expected 
to be done, isn't, because I had plans to do such and such and now I have to 
work around this or we are going to be late to this activity(we have
lots of family activities).

In general I give the message that we do the activites (Spring Spree, Ren
fest, 4 july party, Camping, picnics, hikes, Annual Brautfry, Chili Fest,
Territory Days, ECT.) as a family to enjoy the activity as a family.
No one will go unles we all work together to get the house ready and
get together all the required parephanalia to go on the planned outing.

This is the general method I have used in our home and I'm only strict 
about the stuff that makes what we need to get ready for next outing
more difficult(not being able to find warm clothes for camping packing
because they are all on the bottom of my daughters closet will send me 
through the roof.Funny it doesn't happen that often any more, I guess she
got the message). She seems to respond well to explainations on why her
not completing one task irritates me when I spell out the connecting
tasks that need to be completed and I cant start one til this ones done.
Expecially if the end result was/is somthing she is looking forward to. 
Then she is 11 and hasn't gotten to hormonal yet. I still hope to
be able to compromise with her as she goes through puberty.

Angela gets an allowence and half of her allowence she must put into 
a savings account and not spend unless she gets permission from 
both Steve and I. The younger two get coins every so often to 
put in thier piggy banks and we will start an allowence for the 4
year old soon as he is into wanting to buy things.

Maybe this can give you a few ideas. I hope so.
janet
  

    I have a son that turned 15 on Sunday (July 15). He is doing much the
    same thing as your daughter. He will work IF he wants to do something
    or if I really start sitting on him. If I leave for the day and I give
    him a list of things to be done, chances are that when I come home they
    will not be done. If anything has been done it was started 15 min
    before I get there. Sometimes I wonder if he has any initiative at
    all. When my kids were growing up they were taught many chores.  
    I think it has more to do with the age and the stages they are going
    through more then anything else. My 16 year old will do things in
    spurts and my 13 year old is absolutly meticulous. He keeps his
    drawers cleaned out and his room clean.
    kc

    Well, I guess Becky is the oddity..  She is 15 going on 16, and she
    will help around the house.
    
    My 11 and 13 year old also help with no complaints (most of the time
    :-)...). 
    
    I guess maybe the difference is, I have set the expectation that they
    will do such and such a chore, and that they do not go to bed if it is
    not done. I've rarely had to execute the not going to bed end of it,
    but the few times I have, it has worked.
    
    The one thing I have had to adjust to is my standard of "doneness"
    versus their standard of "doneness"...  at times I have to say, I know
    you did it, I can tell something was attempted, but it has to be
    re-done because of...
    
    Other times I have come home and its not done, I clearly say at that
    moment, "You have X minutes to get this done", I walk away and don't
    blow up... but you can bet its getting done right then...
    
    Gale

	Re .0-

>My husband (her stepfather) works
>long hours, and is out of town a lot, I go to school nights, and we don't have
>a regular schedule - you never know who's going to be home when.

>Basically, she says she doesn't want to live there (she and my husband don't

	Well, think about it. Who would want to? You've said that "you never
know" and then there's a 50-50 chance it's going to be someone you dont get 
along with. Is there really any chance that someone is going to be there for
her, say, emotionally on a *consistant* basis? Is there some way you can put
some consistant emotional support (back) into her life?

>Basically, I guess she sounds like
>a spoiled brat, but she does have some good qualities, and some feelings she
>hides fairly well.

	Why would her "doing well" with hiding how she feels be a good thing?
Does she ever get a chance to tell you how she's feeling? Can you set a time
aside for her to talk and you to listen, perhaps every Tuesday night after 
dinner, that's of an equal importance as anything else? You could try this
and make it fairly guaranteed to diminish the sense of "you never know". Try
changing it to "you always know".

>My husband put her through modeling school.  Our expectations are that she
>help out around the house, but we're met with resistance and complaints.  
>Then she doesn't do it, and I do.

	An unaknowledged bribe, perhaps. "I'll give you this - you meet my 
expectations". She needs something much different than what can be purchased.
I suspect that her resistance and complaints may be a manefestation of her
emotional needs not being met. Her refusal to help out around the house may be 
her way of  saying "I'm not getting, so there's like no way I'm going to give 
anything".

>We don't have many interests in common, so when
>I ask her to go somewhere with me she always declines unless it's going 
>shopping. Someone asked her to go to the library with them, and her reply was,
>"I don't read."

	She'll go shopping with you to perhaps "get something" - a very 
temporary fix, a way to feel a little better about herself for the time being
via some purchased item. How much "stuff" does she have? Reading is a very 
solitary acticity - there's not a lot of personal interaction going on at the 
library.

>She sits around the house and does nothing except talk on the
>phone with her friends all day and all night (she sleeps all morning during
>summer vacation).  It would be nice to see her interested in something, but
>modeling is the only thing she has stuck with so far.

	Talking with her friends is probably very validating for her and gives 
her a sense of connectedness with others. Excessive sleep can be a form of 
escape - you dont _want_ to wake up and realize "oh, I'm here again". A lack 
of interest or motivation in/with anything has been connected to someone's
having a poor sense of self in terms of value. I can understand why modeling 
has stuck with her, because it probably gives her this very sense or feeling "I 
have worth".

>"What's a mother to do?"

	I must apologize for my being so cold in this reply. There were just
some things contained in the base note and reply that were so striking to me
that I had to answer in this way. You may believe that she is "she is deriving
the basic benefits (food, clothing, shelter) but" - but there's one missing
from your list of "basics"! What about emotional support? The need to know 
that we count (in someone's life), we're accepted (for who we are), we can 
trust (in another to be there), and someone cares (about how we feel) is 
pretty much universal. I'd say that a big part of the solution to your problem
with her and what you can do is to set aside a solidly consistant time where
you can give her some of this. The key is consistancy and the value she'll
feel in herself will come from her seeing this consistancy against all the
other important activities in your life.

	Joe Jasniewski

re .15: I was being somewhat sarcastic in saying she hides some feelings "fairly
	well" -- I didn't mean that was good, I think people should be able to
	express their feelings.  She tends to keep her more sensitive side
	tucked away somewhere -- but I see it, and my husband does not.  If he
	noticed it, I think he might judge her less harshly.

	These replies have cut down some of the trees, so it's getting easier
	to see the forest.  For about 2 years now I've been stuck in the middle,
	between the two of them, and somehow reality gets a little hard to see
	clearly there.

	I realize I've come across a little cold in this note.  Actually, she
	and I do talk, but we see the world so differently it sometimes gets
	frustrating for us both.  Other times we do things together like good
	friends.  Sometimes we do talk together about her feelings and mine,
	and have a fairly mature relationship.  One thing that makes it hard
	to do things together is that she feels that kids her age just don't
	do things with their parents.  She won't go to a movie with me, for
	example, even if I ask if she wants to bring a friend.  She'll go with
	friends, only.

	Thanks for the responses.  Honestly they've been enlightening.  Though
	many aren't what I expected, Skip's has a very familiar ring, and 
	they've all been helpful.

Paula

    
    Our family outings sometimes involve meeting other families and having
    a huge picnic or party in the woods or at someones house. The kids 
    that come from the other families provide the proof that families do 
    things together.
    
    Another way to approch her might be from the stand point of flattery.
    
    "I know its not cool for me to do this but I really think you are
    very special and I would really like to do this with you.Will ya
    go to a movie with me. Pleeeeese?"
    janet

    
    
    Sooner or later this child is going to have to do all of these things
    for herself.
    
    I grew up in a house where each of us were expected to help out. 
    We did not have assigned chores, but there was a list and each of 
    us had to pick 3 chores from the list.  So in a way we were given
    a choice, and it always worked out well.
    
    My mom had a hellish time with my younger sister who from your
    description sounds alot like your daughter.  The three oldest
    would get quite upset with her preferential treatment.  We all
    decided to get together and sit her down.  We explained to her
    that we did not like what she was doing to Mom by not helping
    her out.  It seemed to work for a while, but then reverted back
    to the norm.  Until Mom had had enough.
    
    She devised a scheme where Maureen would get points for helping out.
    Each item she wanted done for her also had a set of points assigned
    to it.  For example, a ride was 25 points.  So she would have to do
    enough work to get 25 points for a ride.  After about two months
    of her not getting rides and not being allowed to have friends over
    she finally wised up to the situation.  Once she decided she was
    going to play by mom's rules the situation fixed itself.
    
    Sure it may seem childish and will probably meet with a fair
    amount of resistance, but it works.  Your daughter has to learn
    that life is not handed to her on a silver platter.  If she does
    not learn this now, she will have a very difficult time out there
    in the real world

    Like some others, the things that "caught" me in the basenote was the
    mention of family stressors (the daughter doesn't get along with
    step-dad, etc.)  I am happy to see that counselling is at the very
    least being considered and certainly would push for it.  I do think
    there is definitely a bigger problem there and that probably
    contributes to the difficulty of sharing household work.  I would
    suspect that the "no regular schedule" contributes also....  
    
    I think in solving some of the bigger issues, your ease in getting her
    to contribute will help.  My gut feel is that this is a reactionary
    attitude and it really can't get totally "fixed" unless the item
    causing the reaction is. 
    
    Good luck,
    
    kim