Conference quark::human_relations-v1

    If you go to a jeweler's you'll get their standard "diamond lecture",
    which will not only tell you about diamonds (more than you really want
    to know unless you plan on investing in the rocks rather than just
    buying one as a symbol of your engagement) but of course, and
    primarily, try to sell you one, preferably the most expensive possible
    one.  They WILL tell you that you should spend 2-3 months' salary on
    the ring, too - which you should expect since they sell rings, after
    all (try asking a car salesperson what you should spend for a car...).
    There is no reason why you have to spend that much, unless you both
    really want to.  If you are in a professional career, that could end
    you up with an absurdly huge, gaudy stone that should be kept in a safe
    rather than worn, as well as burning up a lot of money that you may
    have other uses for, unless you are marrying Liz Taylor's twin.  A
    jeweler will also usually try to get you to buy the fancier "quality"
    of diamond, when you might prefer to spend less money and get a larger
    stone or a nicer setting, since you aren't buying an "investment" here.
    
    So, listen to the "diamond lecture", and then make up your own minds -
    don't be conned into spending more money than you really want to spend.
    You can always decide to buy "investment" jewels later if you find the
    subject really intriguing - you can even have the stone in the
    engagement ring replaced with a larger stone later, if you want - some
    people do that as an anniversary present.  Despite the sales pitch,
    most engagement rings have a 1/4 or 1/3 carat stone.
                                      

>    4 - Does the old saw "About two months salary for a ring" still apply?
>    Come on, this is not some kid out of high school making minimum wage,
>    I've been about a few years in a good paying techie job. By the way,
>    is that gross or net?
 
    At the risk of hijacking this note for a reply or two to continue my
    American education, is this an "old saw"? I always assumed it to be a
    marketing campaign by the jewellery industry. I suppose it could be
    both...
    
    	Andrew.    
    

It used to be "one month's salary", and was pushed by the diamond marketers
(primarily deBeers).  I agree with Charlotte that it is silly to pay
a lot of money for a ring so large that it will make one arm longer...

				Steve

    	I am the woman part of the engagement question, how do people feel
    about engagement rings at all? Do you see it as a silly outdated
    tradition or do you see it as a valid symbol of commitment?
    
    	A long time ago, (growing up in a town that has a memorial to Gin
    and Tonics (T and T's)) I was led to believe that ALL respectable women
    got (large) engagement rings. Then I went through a phase where I
    didn't EVER EVER want an engagement ring (because I thought I would
    never get one, sour grapes). Now, I've gone back to thinking that I do
    think it's important to get a ring, not though because it makes me
    respectable (it will take a lot more than that .... ).
    
    	Do you think it's silly to spend that much money (we are both
    DECies and can spend a bit if we choose) on a symbol. Should I be
    contributing to the cost of the ring?
    
    	How would you feel if we (you and I) were getting engaged and I
    gave you (the male role - play with me here) a ring or a necklace as an
    engagement token.
    
    	Thanks for the input.
    

Re: .4

I see it as whatever you want it to be.  It's a symbol where only your
feelings about it matter.  I happen to still be in favor of symbols of
commitment.

As for how it would feel as a male to receive an engagement ring from a woman,
I can tell you it feels just great.  Now I know why women have traditionally
enjoyed being surprised with a proposal and a ring.

				Steve

    Re: .4
    
    I gave my husband a gold watch on a chain for his "engagement" present
    (he wore a lot of three-piece-suits at the time). I think that it is
    also an important symbol, but you should get what the two of you are
    comfortable with, not what "respectable society" expects of the engaged
    couple. 
    
    I recommend Turco jewelers in the Jewelers Building on Washington
    Street in downtown Boston. I have gotten several  nice pieces there,
    and they are reputable. 
    
    Congratulations on your engagement!

    My wife and I went shopping for a ring together--it was a lot of fun,
    and I strongly recommend it to you (it's romantic and exciting and
    good for finding out about the other's tastes, and a good way to spend
    time between work and dinner out, etc...).
    
    Further, I'd suggest that you not commit yourself to the "standard"
    single diamond ring: she and I found we much prefered blue to clear
    and got a sapphire; some friends of mine got an emerald; I've heard
    of other sapphires, rubies and even an opal as engagement symbols.
    
    As for price--don't be driven by what you think other people expect,
    and don't think of the ring as an investment (it isn't).  I advise
    only spending an amount you are _very_ comfortable with.
    
    My brother used our maternal grandmother's ring.  I like that, too.
    
    			-John Bishop

    Maybe I'm missing something in the base note, but wouldn't these
    questions be better answered (and more appropriately answered) in 
    either the LYCEUM::CONSUMER or LAB::WEDDINGS notes conferences?
    
    ep

    I'd second the suggestion that you take her with you.  Look together,
    and find something you feel symbolizes your relationship - and it
    doesn't have to be a diamond either.
    
    I've had two "commitment" rings (never got quite to the point of
    official "Engagement").  Both were tasteful, but both were within the
    financial boundaries of his situation.  Neither had a diamond as the
    central stone (one had amethyst, the other sapphire).  Both were under
    $150.  Both made my eyes sparkle, which was the intended purpose ;).
    
    To my intendeds I had given an emerald signet ring in one case, and a
    mont blanc pen in the other. 
    
    -Jody
    

    I know of two places in the Jeweler's Building that are GREAT!  No
    pressure, great service, lots of selection.  I will get the names
    tonight if you are interested.  I have gotten a whole lot of help in
    diamonds and precious stones with no pressure to buy in both stores.
    
    Andrea
    

    
    
    The jewelery industry has unbelievable markups. Even at a "discount"
    place you are probably paying 500-800% markup. I know because a friend
    of mine owns a jewelery manufacturing company in NYC and I get mine 
    at cost. 
    
    	The jewelery stores set these standards (2-3 months salary) to
    get as much as they think they can out of you. They also get you
    at a very vulnerable moment if you have your intended with you.
    The salesmen are not above trying to make you look cheap in her
    eyes if you don't buy the best (of course you'll have to take out 
    a five year loan, but isn't she worth it?).
    
    	The only time you'll get more guilt preasure to spend beyond 
    your means is if god forbid someone close to you dies and you have
    to go to the undertaker to make the final arrangements (I know this
    coffin seems expensive at $14k but isn't she/he worth it?)
    
    	Let you intended look for a style she likes and then you go 
    buy one that is affordable. She'll love it if she loves you.
    
    	PS Take the money you saved and bring her to Hawaii or Tahiti
    	   that will be money you two will enjoy more than making
    	   your jeweler richer (notice I said "richER" , never met a 
    	   poor one yet)
    
    
    			DAC
    

    Unless you feel a need to have the "real" thing get a zurcon. I think
    that's the spelling. Anyway, I've seen some that are beautiful and I've
    heard it takes a jewelers glass to tell the difference. Then spend the
    money on something important - like a 3 week honeymoon in an exotic
    location! :*) liesl

    Thinking about this from a distance - in that only once have I been
    close to thinking about buying a ring, and that was some time ago -
    it seems to me that one of the important questions is, whose money is
    it that's being spent?
    
    Is it the giver's money, that they would otherwise spend entirely on
    themselves, or the couple's, in which case it might be only practical
    to say, shall we skip the ring and have some furniture, or, as .12
    suggests, get a less expensive stone and have a honeymoon?
    
    I can't imagine having enough $$ to splash 2 month's salary on a ring,
    then be able to afford a honeymoon and come back to a wonderful home.
    But then, I work for Digital...
    
    	Andrew.

    
    
    An alternative to an engagement ring is a set of matching, intricate
    bands.  Ours are Black Hills gold, quite attractive, and ornate enough
    to wear alone-in fact, an engagement ring would detract from the band.
    
    Deb
    

Engagement rings are optional, of course!  I agree that the several months' 
salary guideline seems an incentive to make you spend more than you might have, 
and it's not even necessary to get a really nice ring.  Can even be inexpensive,
depending on your taste in stones (diamonds are NOT mandatory; rubies, emeralds,
sapphires can be just as expensive, but there's other colored crystalline stones
out there)  Nothing wrong with exchanging rings/engagement gifts, either!  No 
matter who asked whom - giving him a ring does not imply you asked him. :-)  Men
don't seem to wear the rings as a set (engagement and wedding rings on same 
finger), but it may just be I haven't noticed any who do....

If you do opt for an engagement ring, remember that you don't have to buy it 
"assembled"; you can get a custom designed ring.  The jewelers who do this 
usually will also be able to sell you stones - often very good stones, too - or 
you can bring your own stone(s) and select or design a setting for them.  Some 
jewelers will design a ring for you, and/or may have a selection of settings 
they've already designed that you can add stones to; some will also work from 
your design.  This is a case where going together is not only fun, but probably
a good idea so the result matches the recipients' taste as well as the givers'!

BTW: you might think (or ask them) about wedding rings at the same time, to get
a "set" of rings that work together, even if you only buy the engagement ring 
now.  This is especially useful if you plan to have "matching" non-plain wedding
bands - it avoids finding out too late that your mates' favorite band clashes 
with the engagement ring!

		Helen

    Another comment about diamonds. If you get a diamond, consider the
    money to be lost. Diamonds are *not* investments. If you don't believe
    me, ask your jeweler what they would give you if you wanted to sell it
    back. The South Africans, the Australians, and the Russians don't
    exactly have a cartel, but they're not so stupid as to put their
    stockpiles out on the market all at once, and they keep the prices
    artificially high.
    
    Mind you, though, there's nothing *wrong* with diamonds, you just have
    to realize that the money is spent, not invested. If you want to
    invest, invest in sapphires, rubies, emeralds, opals, blue topaz, or
    almost anything else that's not a synthetic.
    
    To add my voice to those advocating alternative engagement presents,
    art is a good choice. There are many reputable galleries in any major
    city, and for the same sort of money you'd sink into a stone, you can
    get some nice art work.
    
    	Jon

    Yup.....DeBeers just about trickles them into the system, and probably
    has many holed up waiting to come in.  Artificial market control.
    
    Sellback on diamonds is probably less than half, I heard....
    (except maybe if it's an exotic (canary, blue....) diamond)
    
    -Jody
    

Do people really buy engagement rings with a thought to resale value?  The
concept strikes me as strange.

		Steve

    Its something you have to look at: after all, the divorce rate *is*
    rather high.  After all, if you're going to blow a grand on a ring,
    you should look intelligently on what the ramifications are.

    IMO, an engagement ring is a token of affection, rather than a measure
    of the degree of commitment in a relationship.
    
    I decided that I liked the London Blue Topaz and wanted a simple ring. 
    When we looked at rings, we looked at design and color.  Since I am an
    artist, I use my hands a lot, and I didn't want a "knuckle buster", nor
    did I want a ring which would draw a lot of attention.  That's my
    taste.
    
    We went to quite a few stores before we found what we wanted (there
    will be 3 rings), and found quite a range of price, selection, design
    and service.  I went into the stores in the malls to get ideas about 
    design and price range.  What I found was not what I wanted, the rings
    were overpriced and some of the salespeople were downright rude.  We
    found what we were looking for at Village Jewellers in Maynard!  The
    owner is also a goldsmith and he has a nice selection of traditional
    and contemporary designs.  He never used any pressure tactics and gave
    us a wide range of payment options.
    
    Definitely check out the LAB::WEDDINGS file.  You'll find lots of
    information about weddings. 
    
    Congratulations!
    Judi
    

    
    re "Knuckle Buster"
    
    I also have heard 'em referred to as "Vampire" or "Predator" repellers..
    
    Such rings strike me as a laughable triumph of vanity over prudence..  

>    Another comment about diamonds. If you get a diamond, consider the
>    money to be lost. Diamonds are *not* investments. If you don't believe
>    me, ask your jeweler what they would give you if you wanted to sell it
>    back. The South Africans, the Australians, and the Russians don't
>    exactly have a cartel, but they're not so stupid as to put their
>    stockpiles out on the market all at once, and they keep the prices
>    artificially high.
    
    Sounds to me like it is the jeweler who keeps the diamond price
    artificially high.  
    ...
    
    
    Anyway, I think if one wants to convey a feeling, all one has to do is
    say it (well, maybe framing a Shakespear's Sonnet isn't too bad an
    idea).  If one wants to give something of monetary value, give her DEC
    stock.  Anyway, I am probably the last person you want to take
    advice from in this subject matter...  Don't mean to insult tradition as 
    such, but it does seem a bit strange
    to measure love with the price of diamond /*(aka isn't she worth it)*/
    and equate *** with the size of a car /*(you figure this out :-))*/
    
    Sorry I digress.
    
    :-) :-)
    
    Eugene
                             

    I kind of look at *any* investment made by one or both in a couple as a
    potential liquidatable asset (I mean, God Forbid anything goes wrong
    financially in their married life, but a crisis is a crisis....you
    know?).  Maybe I'm too materially minded, but if I was EVER going to
    spend that much on ANYTHING, I'd like to make sure I can get a majority
    of the money out of it if I had to.  Consider it a dowry of some
    sort...or like the Gold that (Indonesian?  Indian?) women get when they
    get married - it is their social security should their husband ever
    die....or if times get really tough....
    
    -Jody
    

People should keep in mind that an engagement ring is generally regarded
as a gift after marriage, though if the relationship breaks off before
the wedding, the ring is usually returned to the giver.

I do not advocate spending more than one is comfortable with on ANYTHING.
Nor do I feel that people should be assuming that just because someone
wants to give their intended an expensive ring, that they are necessarily
equating love with money.  I honestly think some of the cynicism in this
topic is poor taste.

					Steve

    	Hi, the woman of the engagement ring questions here. 
    
    	In reading through these notes, I have been agitated, angry,
    validated, and almost every other emotion, but that is why I asked
    Steve to put this note in (my boyfriend originally wrote the note for
    another forum, I asked his permission to submit it here), I wanted help
    from the community to challenge what I thought.
    
    	I think that the biggest issue for me was wondering if I deserved
    an expensive ring. Is it selfish to want it? How can I even think about
    him spending that much money on me? Wouldn't it be better to spend the
    money elsewhere?.......
    
    	But how much of the above is what women are trained to say through
    society's dictates, (no you go and have fun, I'll just stay here alone)
    and how much of that is what women really believe? It has taken a lot
    of personal courage to say that no, I don't like this type of ring, I
    like this one over here better. After all, it is only recently that
    women have even been included in the ring decision. We are supposed to
    be grateful for anything that is given us, that was the role of the
    good woman.
    
    
    	My boyfriend and I are currently looking at a rather expensive ring
    (over 3000 but far less than the "required two months salary") we are
    still looking though. The reasons that are given NOT to buy a ring are
    valid, sure, if we get divorced, the resale will not be as good. Yes,
    people may interpret it as a monetary coup (see what I can get?).
    
    	But after thinking about it for a long time, I find a few of the
    non-rational pluses missing. This is something that he wants to do for
    me. He wants to give me something beautiful and I want to wear
    something beautiful, I want to carry a part of him with me where ever I
    go, I want to be reminded of him. Sure, we can take the money and buy
    stock, we can buy other investments, but I doubt that I'll get that
    special feeling (boy, I want to be around this man for a long long time
    feeling) looking at a stock certificate.
    
    	Neither of us are kids, I own a condo that is fully furnished, we
    are financially secure, I could see if we were just kids starting out
    that it would be better to sink the money into a downpayment or a car
    or something. But we're not. We can afford this.
    
    
    	As far as me giving him something, yes, it will be a token of some
    sort, probably not a ring (he doesn't do rings) but maybe a necklace. I
    want him to have a bit of my presence as well.

    If you know what you want, and why you want it, and he can afford it, 
    I don't think you have to defend your position at all.  You know what
    you want - go get it!  You asked our opinions, and I gave you mine -
    but its pertinence to your life is next to nil, that's why some people
    head their notes with "my two cents worth" and the like....
    
    Be happy, be in love, revel!
    
    -Jody 

re: a few notes back,

    Uh... I don't think I came up with the line "Isn't she worth it?"  I
    believe it to be some jeweler peddling his/her stones.  Neither was I
    who accused anyone equating money with love.  The ones who bought that
    line of sales pitch speak for themselves.  I heard on the news last week
    that the average couple spends $1,1000 on their wedding.  I also
    read an article on MONEY magazine on a couple that spent over 60K (plus 
    a lot of headaches) on their wedding for the reason of, I quote,
    "She wants fine memory."  Now don't get me wrong, I think it is money
    worth spent if that made them happy.  On the other hand, if I were coerced
    into drowning 60K (or even 11K) on my wedding, the only fine memory I will 
    have is the beautiful house I could have bought with 11K downpayment. I
    guess with my kind of attitute, I will never get married.
  
    As to cynicism and what not...  

    Uh... Hmmm... well, I think there is a problem there.  Is there
    any counselor for compulsively cynic people?  Or is there any group
    called Cynics Anonymous (CA) around for cynic people to go and talk
    about their problems?
    
    Eugene



                                                         









    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    This is supposed to be humorous.  Hope I haven't offended anyone.  Hope
    satire is allowed in this notesfile?

    
    Eugene, the good taste police have your number..

    It is the MAN that is the one that COUNTS not the size of the ring. A
    guy might buy his fiance a 5 carat diamond, the best quality, the 4C's
    (as the jewelers say ;-}....but that guy can also be "not the best
    husband" material either.  So even though that ring you recieve is a
    "PEE-SHOOTER"......it is the person you are marrying is the one that
    should be the "main JEWEL". He is the one you have to live with.
    
    
    Good luck in your marrage!
    
    Lynne

    This is kinda off the subject, but I thought I would throw it in - I
    found it quite amusing.
    
    Here in Colorado Springs there is a store that advertises on TV called
    Rent-a-Rock.  Honest!!!  You can *rent* an engagement and wedding
    ring....now you can try out married life, break your lease and still
    get your money back on your rock!
    
    L.

    re .30
    
    Perhaps one could get a rent-a-rock for his inflatable doll.  When he's
    tired of her, he can just deflate her and put her back in the closet.
    
    Sounds like this would appeal to someone who wants to "test drive" a
    relationship without wanting the commitment.  
    
    Sorry, I don't agree with it.  But that's my opinion.
    
    Judi
    

    I rather have the cheapest zirconia from ol' Home Shoppers Club given
    to me then a rental!!
    
    
    Pretty wild idea though!! Someone is always thinking
    
    Lynne ;-)

    I'd think the primary market for rentals would be those people who want
    to show off to acquaintances at a special event -- say a class reunion,
    for example.
    
    Karen

    re.34
    
    Karen,
    
    I hate to admit but my highschool reunion was before I got engaged so
    my fiance at the time ordered a zirconia from good ol Home Shoppers
    ;-)!! for the event!!!
    
    

    
    Maybe there is something odd about me.  I don't like diamonds.  There
    are other stones I like a whole lot more...fire blue opals for one.
    
    However, when my husband and I got married, he wanted me to have a
    diamond.  He went out, bought it and gave it to me.  I wear it because
    he wanted me to have it.  It isn't large.  I probably would have balked
    at that.
    
    If he had wanted to give me a zirconia, that would have been fine.  I
    accepted and wear the diamond because it means a lot to him and because
    of that, means a lot to me.
    
    Faith
    

    re .36
    
    Since opals are soft stones, they are better suited for earrings, pins
    and necklaces, rather than a ring which is worn often.  I once had a
    fire opal ring, but the stone cracked and fell out of the ring after it
    got hit on the side of a desk once too many times.  So it goes.  The
    Austrian and deep blue opals are gorgeous!
    
    Judi
    

    Re .37
    
    I disagree about the suitability of opals for rings...they're fine *IF*
    the setting is suitable.  My all-time favorite ring, which has been
    worn nearly every day for the past 20 years or so, consists of several
    opals.  The setting sits higher than the stones and protects them from
    any bangs/bumps of which there are been many.  I've never had to have
    one of the stones replaced. 
    
    They are very fragile and can even break due to changes in temperature
    so I would be hesitant about investing alot of money in a ring with a
    large opal however.  I had one stone break in a necklace - figured it
    had to be temperature related since I certainly would have noticed a
    blow to the chest hard enough to break the stone:^)  (Years ago I was
    told soaking opals in mineral oil periodically would help keep them 
    more resistant to damage - not sure if it works - too messy to do on
    a regular basis - has anyone else tried this home remedy?)
    
    ep

    Although mineral oil does impart a nice sheen, I've read warnings
    against its use.  Apparently it leaves the surface a bit sticky,
    so that dirt adheres to the stone, and may even be drawn into it.
    Soaking in water (Opal is hydroscopic.) was preferred.
    
    							Ann B.

    
    Just want to clear up a possible misunderstanding.  I didn't suggest an
    opal for an engagement ring.  I meant that I personally don't like
    diamonds.....for any jewelry other than as an accent.  Opals are just
    my favorite stone.
    
    For an engagement ring, I'd probably like a sapphire or emerald, accent
    with a small diamond or two (and I'm talking chip size here for
    accent).
    
    The means for protecting opals that I was give was to first smooth baby
    oil on them and then wash in a very gentle soap and warm water to
    remove and residual of the oil.  So, I use baby oil and them warm water
    wash mine in Ivory.  The only one I lost was one that took a direct hit
    that was a 1 in a million chance.
    

    Thanks for the info about settings.  I stand corrected.
    
    re cleaning opals; I read in a gem book that since opals are natural
    stones, wetting them regularly (wearing them in the shower; leaving
    them in a glass of water overnight) helps their longevity.
    
    I agree with the sentiment about diamonds.  They're beautiful stones,
    but I wanted something different.  I found a nice dark blue topaz which
    I like because of the color and also because it's different.
    
    What I like most about the ring is what it represents.  If the
    sentiment wasn't there, I wouldn't wear the ring.
    
    Judi
    

    
      A friend recently pointed out this little bit of wisdom that I
    tend to agree with " The smaller the Diamond the better the Marriage"
    
      JC
    

    A woman that use to work here had a huge diamond...probably 3 carats.
    
    The marriage looks very good and they both profess to be happy and 
    appear so.

    
    I'll bet it keeps the vampires away too...
    

    
    10 years ago, I spent $1,000 on a diamond engagement ring for my wife.
    The ring was the only thing she has ever insisted on.
    
    She wore it until we had kids. The she gained weight. Lots of it.
    The ring doesn't fit and she has it on a shelf somewhere.
    
    All in all, I should have bought a nice stereo with the $1,000 :-).
    
    Guy
    

    re: .47
    
    Hock it!    :-)

    Rings can be resized.  My parents just had their wedding rings resized,
    it's not terribly expensive and they can be sized back down if ever the
    need arises!
    
    Get thee to a jewel-ery!
    
    -Jody
    

    I still say "hock it" and buy a decent stereo (compact disc, decent
    amp, etc.)
    
       - Larry

    If he hocks it he might be lucky enough to get about $100.00 for
    it.  Hock shops are in the business to make money like any other
    business... when they give out the cash they consider such things
    as how long they will have to hold the item before it sells, it's
    retail value, lose of value (it's second hand and used after all)
    and the fact that people don't always want a 2nd hand engagement
    ring.  Hocking it isn't such a great idea.
    
    Skip

    Of course you're right Skip.  A couple in New York took a different 
    approach, however, and claimed the ring was lost to collect the insurance
    money. 
    
    Unfortunately for them, they tried it two more times and finally got
    caught by the third insurance company.
    
    Some people never learn.
    
       - Larry

    Hmmmm now claiming it's lost for the insurance money... there's
    a thought, I do have this slightly used engagement ring floating
    around.  
    
    Course I'd only do it once.
    
    hehehehehe
    Skip

    while I agree that buying something that you both can use is probably
    better than something (such as a ring) that only one person uses, I
    think that it would be better to get something that promotes
    togetherness - like a tandem (bicycle).  Tandems run closer to the
    $3000 range than the $1000 range, but you usually get 3 (chain) rings.
    
    Rich

    A friend bought his fiancee a silkscreen print instead of an engagement
    ring.  It was something they both can appreciate!
    
    Judi
    

    But Judi, when you're at the Mall and see some old girlfriends from
    high school that you want to see turn green with envy, are you going to
    thrust out your hand and show them a rock OR whip out this silkscreen
    print?   :-)              
    
    All kidding aside, if my fiance' would rather have something else
    (something that both of us can appreciate) I'm willing to accomodate. 
    Having to buy an engagement ring is not etched in stone.  Is there a
    pun there?
    
       - Larry

    re .57
    
    Naaaah,
    
    Have them over to dinner in your newly renovated Victorian farmhouse,
    of course!! ;)
    
    Judi
    

    I believe that it is important that you know about each others taste in 
    jewlery. I made it very clear I worry to much about "real"stuff that I
    dont realy enjoy it.(My daughter misplaced my engagement ring after I 
    had it for two years I never found it and one year olds dont understand
    that they need to leave "prettys" so mom can find them again.
    
    So when Steve asked some leading questions about jewelry and rings I
    reevaluated my stand and looked around and decided that I would rather
    put a deck on the back of the house or renovate the garage into a 
    "Jaccuzi" room instead of spend money on somthing I would regret
    losing. At the time it never dawned on me that I should have the rings
    insured or that if you lost them or they got flushed down the cammode
    by the inquisitive toddler you could replace them.
    
     
    I was not interested in an engagement ring and worried about losing the
    wedding band(I wanted a good chain to wear it on so I would not have to
    worry about taking it off at work and leaving it in the tool box or
    losing it out of my pocket).
    
    After the wedding he gave me what he calls a "family" ring it has 
    all of our(his, mine and kids) birthstones. I guess figured that this
    would be more significant because of its sentimental value. He was
    right. I am a pushover for sentimental.
    
    Speaking of sentimental our engagement picture is one that we had done
    at the local Renasaince Festaval in costume. King and Queen with crowns
    and swords and all. The little story about the magic of the box that
    makes perminate mirror images tells a tale about how the man found this
    box with tiny elfs that know how to paint and they peak out the hole
    and paint what they see and after  five minutes they have completed a 
    minuature poitrait painted by the tiny elfs of the magic box. Their is 
    something about needing to feed them a chicken leg a day but it has
    been a while since I read the story.
    
    Its all a matter of what is important to you and your spouse to be.
    Some want sentimental, big, tokan. Me I cant see spending a months
    salery on something I would be afraid I would lose. Spend 2000 to 
    spend a week in Aspen in the middle of Leaf changing time and hiking
    through the marroon bells... Thats more my idea of a great way to spend
    money.One of the two hotels we stayed in had a jaccuzi and a fireplace
    and CD player in the room... That was expencive but for a honeymoon it
    was worth it.
    janet

    Not all engagement rings are lost if the marriage is.

    I took my ring, and my Ex's ring (he threw it at me and insisted he
    didn't want it back), to the jewelry store. I had a really nice ring made
    from the diamond solitaire that was in my set, had the gold melted down
    from both set of rings and the cost applied to the new ring. Hence I
    now (well, 4 years ago anyway) bought a $900.00 ring for about $135.00.

    I can still wear my "weddings rings", and nobody is the wiser.

>>	and nobody is the wiser.

	Except, of course, for us H_R readers! :-)

	Dan

    
    hock it and get a CD player, plus the Dvorak strings quartets...

    Uh..., a better choice would be Beethoven's quartets (especially the
    late ones), but that is really another taste great or less filling
    issue.
    
    Eugene