Conference quark::human_relations-v1

I don't see a rosy future for you two.....

If the conversation you relate is accurate, I'd say her expectations are
way out of line.  Unfortunately, a telephone conversation is one of the
worst possible mediums for having this sort of argument.  With hindsight,
you perhaps should deferred asking her to contribute until you were
together again.

Then again, it may not have been worthwhile....

			Steve

    My first "honest" reaction...
    
    LET HER TAKE THE DAMN BUS!!!
    
    My second, and probably calmer reaction...
    
    "LET HER TAKE THE DAMN BUS...TODAY AND EVERY DAY!!!
    
    Jill
    

    I would suggest she talk to someone who *knows* what a relationship
    is about (like a counselor); then I would suggest that the two of you
    sit down and air your expectations about your "realtionship" so all
    the cards are on the table.  It might be wise to decide who is paying for
    what at what percentage of their salary, and strive to find some
    common ground.  It has also been my experience that when a courtesy
    become an expectation, the relationship needs some work--fast.
                    
    Good Luck!      
                    
    Barb            

    	Are you an 'egotistic cheapskate'??  Hardly, from the likes of
    that conversation.  And I hope you don't start thinking of
    yourself that way because of her!

    	You ask what's going on here?  Well, to me it seems like a bad
    case of mismatched expectations.  Have the two of you ever sat
    down and talked about what you expect from each other and from the
    relationship?  I think it's important that you do so.  (Although
    if the conversation goes anything like the one in the base note, I
    wish you much luck in working things out!)

    	One of the worst things that can happen in a relationship is
    when one person starts taking the other for granted and stops
    working at the relationship.  It sounds to me like she's the one 
    who doesn't know what a real sharing relationship is.


    	My thoughts...

    amy

    My most ruthless, honest opinion is that she is seeing to what extent
    she can "pull your strings".  I have read your previous note in this
    conference, and altogether I think she is shamelessly taking advantage
    of a person in a _very_ vulnerable stage in his life.
    
    I am a woman; when in a long-term relationship my SO made more money
    than I; I never used these facts to pressure my SO into "carrying" me
    financially or into acting as my private limo service.  It makes me
    feel better as person, regardless of gender, to know that I can take care
    of myself rather than making myself a burden to someone else.
    
    Let her take the bus, and advise her to get couselling regarding her
    need to control you.
    
    dlw

    
    You asked for some "ruthlessly" honest opinions.  Here are some
    questions, instead.  Hope some of it helps....
    
    o What in the world is the "issue" here?  Is it that you didn't
    want to pick her up?  She doesn't have a car?  You are a cheapskate?
    She doesn't make enough money? You pay for everything?  You count
    everything?  She calls you names?
    
    o Do you (as asked in other notes) set expectations?  Have you talked
    about all or some of these things before?  Have you talked about
    them one at a time or do they tend to come up in arguments and become
    blurred and never resolved?
    
    o How long have yuou been with this person?  Is communication a
    problem?  What do you expect from all this?  Don't you have any
    "guidelines" in place for conflict negotiation and appropriate
    behavior in a disagreement?   I would suggest you work something
    out if you're going to be dealing with this person and hope to
    have something lasting.  But from what you wrote here, there are
    big problems.
    
    Communication is the thing that will make or break any relationship
    and the ability to conduct disagreements in a way which will benefit
    NOT destroy the relationship is important.  Also, you need to start
    looking at these issues separately and not in the heat of an
    argument to see what is what.
    
    Good luck.
    Susan
    

    

    This is going to sound harsh, but it's my honest, gut reaction.
    Based on the dialog you've written, if it's anything like your everyday
    interaction, I'd say she's a manipulating, self-centered witch.  
    
    I'm sorry, you asked, and that was the first thing that came to mind.
    
    -Jody
    

    My most ruthlessly honest opinion is that you transcribed a memory of a
    conversation rather than a recording of a conversation.
    
    It sounds too one-sided to me to be able to draw any meaningful
    conclusions, other than that you've had a fight.
    
    Sorry,
    Ray

     Re: -.1
    
    That's my opinion, too.  I remember a note some time ago where an
    analogous situation was described and people were somewhat uniformly
    taking the opposing view: that the person was being cheap or, at the
    very least, insensitive to the other person.
    
    I know that if I were in the situation described I'd feel more than a
    little bit claustrophobic.  But at the same time its easy to see the
    other person's side: "damn it, he has a car and I have to take the
    friggin' bus all the time."  Its easy to get jealous over things
    like that.

    
    Uh, can I ask the obvious ?  Is this the same Theo that put in the
    other note ?
    
    If so, I'd say stop letting her walk all over you.  You deserve better.
    Let her know that too.
    
    /Eric
    
    

    Whenever I see notes like this in a conference I wonder two things
    
    Are we, the readers, part of a process which confirms to the author
    that he/she is right and good and that their partner is wrong and has
    to change?
    
    What is the other side of the story or coin?
    
    There are all sorts of justification for behavior.  Honorable deeds
    that should be accepted.  But if we choose to devote all our time to
    our children, our work, or any other endeavor and our partner feels
    left out I guess we have to accept that.  The probability of someone 
    changing to meet our needs is remote.  We can change and if we want
    something we have to decide how bad we want it.
    
    I caution people from getting sympathetic support from any source
    without thinking about how they are going to change their behavior to
    get what they want.  The sympathy and support feel so good that it can
    become habit forming.

    Theo:
    
    It sounds like she's manipulating you.  In your first note, I had a
    little bit of sympathy for both of you ... and tried to give it the
    benefit of the doubt.  But judging from this conversation, it sou,ds
    like you guys are having big time problems, #1, and #2, that she's a
    totally selfish person and is trying to give you the guilts in a major
    way.
    
    If I were you, I'd move on to the next stage of the game: ending it and
    starting anew.  No one needs the stress and aggravation you're being
    subjected to at this point.  IMHO, that is.
    
    Good luck and many hugs,    Tammi

    I thought from your previous note that this relationship was trouble.
    After reading this, I'm sure of it.  You two seem to have problems
    that run the full gambit.  Can I ask you something and I'm not tying
    to be a smart ass.  What in the hell do you two have in common?  do
    you two EVER have any fun together?  What was the attraction?  Also,
    it seems to me you two didn't know each other very well or for very
    long before she (and correct me if I'm wrong) 1. Quit her jobs in the
    states to move to Europe.  2. Left her country, her family, her friends
    to move in with you.  What was going on with  her life that she was
    so willing to do that with someone she didn't know very well (if at all
    by the sound of your notes)?   I just think (again, by the sound of
    your notes and I know she has her side to the story) that this is a
    doomed relationship and you need to spend some time ALONE to get
    your own head where it belongs.  If people don't give themselves enough
    time (and in my experience, most people don't) after a divorce, they
    will consistently wind up with the same type of person they divorced!!
    I couild never figure that one out, but I guess we go back to what's
    familiar unless we get help or give ourselves plenty of time to heal.
    I'd be curious to know the answers tomy questions.
    

    Okay my 2 cents... first I have some trouble believing that you
    spoke to her in a totally calm and rational voice throughout the
    conversation.  Second I tend to agree with the fact that all we
    have to operate with is your side of the story... how much walking
    is involved with taking the bus?  I have to bus to work every morning
    myself and I end up doing a LOT of walking... it gets tiresome and
    if the weather is HOT it's a nightmare.  Third... if she was upset
    over it, you should have found out what was upsetting her not telling
    her your own expectations over the phone.  In a situation like that
    the non-verbals are as important as the voice is.  Forth what DOES
    she do with her money... that is, is she buying the groceries each
    week or keeping up both wardropes or covering some other expense
    that you aren't?  Maybe she feels she IS contributing fairly and
    DOES deserve a ride.  Finally, consider that (from what I've gathered)
    she is a stranger in a strange land culture shock is a very stressful
    situation culture shock without any friends who can understand it
    is even worse.  I know I lived two years in the Philipines after
    having been raised in the states... entire concepts were different,
    and if not for the fact that I was on a base with other people who
    were going through the same cultural changes that I was I know I
    would have had a lot of difficulty adjusting to the differences.
    No familey, and no body who could understand what I was going through
    would have made my first year there completely unbearable. Last...
    If you can say that the conversation happened exactly as you discribed
    it... that you were completely calm and rational about the whole
    exchange and she was not... then the best thing to do is give her
    a one way ticket home NOW before it gets any worse.  You are fighting
    a lost battle and it is just a matter of time before someone gets
    hurt BAD.  
    
    Skip
    

    	Sounds familiar.  I've certainly run into my share of folks who
    didn't know how to contribute to a friendship/relationship.


    	Nowadays, if someone can't see their way to contributing in SOME
    fashion or another, I think about moving on.  Of course, I first try to
    see if the situation can't be worked out.  But in the end I'm not
    afraid to start looking elsewhere.  It helps that I've built a really
    good circle of friends that I know I can depend on.


    	I do agree somewhat with the notes that say that we only have one
    side of the story, but the fact that *you* are questioning *yourself*
    leads me to believe that it's probably pretty accurate.  Introspective
    people -- at least if you do it honestly -- tend not to delude
    themselves.


    	So I'd say, if you can't work it out move on.  Good luck.


    Brian

    
    
    	One more thing to consider....
    
    	From the tone implied in both your notes, I would say that she
    	tends to get heated up when having a disagreement.  How you deal
    	with this whole thing is one matter, but what about your son?
    	Is he a witness to this whole 'ordeal' each time there is one?
    	What kind of environment is this for him?
    
    		Essentially, who's the child?  Seems like she get's 
    		upset over not getting all of the attention as well
    		as the other things that may be bothering her.
    
    
    						IMHO,
    
    						  Eileen

    I think the conversation was just a manifestation of what's going on
    at a deeper level in the relationship and that take two people - not
    one person and a self-centered witch.
    
    First off, she phrased the question in such a way that she *assumed*
    you'd be coming to get her.  Why?  Has that been a normal pattern that
    you come to get her *by default* unless you had something else to do?
    If so, you helped establish that pattern and can't rightly be miffed
    just because now you want to change that pattern and expect she will
    simply read your mind and go along.
    
    Second, your reluctance to pick her up wasn't really due to having to
    get your son, but that it was "hot in the car" for him.  What does that
    mean?  Is your son ill?  If not, then I suspect the excuse was just an
    excuse to cover up your real reason for not wanting to get her.  And
    that real reason could be that you just want to change the pattern.
    
    Further on the conversation you mention your displeasure with "being
    expected to".  Are you perhaps just beginning to feel a little closed
    in and want a little breathing space but aren't ready to face that
    yourself yet much less face her with it?  Does she perhaps sense this
    such that her behavior is becoming more clinging and/or challenging?
    
    I think the issues of her not having enough money to buy a car and you 
    having to pay for everything in the relationship are smokescreen
    issues - they let a person take the offensive when they feel they are
    too frighteningly on the defensive.  They are far too general, ("You
    always do x"  "You never do y"), to really reflect anything more than
    vague, underlying feelings.  And what you need to do is face those
    underlying feelings and read them in the context of your relationship.
    Is she jealous of your money?  Are you jealous of her carefree
    dependence?  Are these the real issues behind her demand and your
    reluctance?
     
    You have a right to establish the boundaries and expectations that you 
    want in a relationship but you have to work WITH your partner to do it.

    I haven't read these notes for a while, but se you still haven't
    answered any questions asked of you or haven't responded to any
    of our responses to your situation.  What going on?  Are you 2
    still together?  Have you worked out any of the issues presented
    here?   Just curious, as I'm sure a lot of others are.
    

    sounds like you are in a relationship with my ex-wife!
    
    good luck!
    tony