Conference quark::human_relations-v1

    
         Perhaps now that your ex plans to marry again, there'll be
    little reason for your daughters to visit him again.
    
         Since your daughters values mirror your own, I don't think there's
    much chance that they'll think "it's ok" to wreck another's marriage
    to "get what they want."  Such messages abound in the Soaps, etc., so
    it's not like they can be insulated from receiving them.
    
         It sounds like the current situation involves some hurt and pain-
    ful memories.  I hope these matters are resolved and you and your
    children not subject to any further hurt.
    
    
                                                      Russ

    .0
    
    I'd say, sincerely, that it's none of your business when/if/and to whom
    he marries.
    
    -dwight

    RE: .2

    And I disagree....  if you had a friend over, who also brought a
    friend over, and that other person whom you didn't even know was going to 
    commit suicide in front of your eyes, would it also be none of your 
    business to not warn the person of the consequences?

    Now if the ex-husband was a gem, or had changed his ways, I'd agreed
    100% with you, and I wouldn't care...  but I feel differently because I
    I care that this female person NOT ruin her life... 

    	Uh, Gale, comparing getting married and suicide (though some
    people may equate the two! :^) ) is a bit harsh, don't you think?

    	Presumably, this woman is an adult and is responsible for her
    own life.  You are responsible for yours and your girls'.  Period.
    Though you may feel she's getting herself into trouble, she
    obviously doesn't.  There really isn't anything you can do here.
    If they've decided to get married, you aren't going to change
    that.  People live and learn - and they learn by living, not
    avoiding.

    	amy

    My relationship to my ex-husband was disastrous and there is little 
    doubt in my mind that he was not a good husband for *me* or a good 
    father for our children.
    
    When I read .0 I remembered how we found out about his upcoming
    marriage.  If I recall it was after the fact.  And I felt a lot of
    sympathy for his new wife.
    
    But that was around 16 years ago.  They have been married longer then
    we were.  She has experienced many of the problems that I did.  But
    they are still together and they are happy in their own way.
    
    I found it was important for me to allow my children to discover for
    themselves things about their father.  I stressed his strengths and
    they value those.  They understand his weaknesses from their
    perspective not mine and that is the way it should be.
    
    There are a lot of models out there.  I dare say that the way a parent
    lives their life is not the only or the most influential.  
    
    The issue of the woman's divorce surprises me.  Is it the legality that
    is not complete or is it that she is still living with her husband as a
    married person?  Although I respect the law, I never spent a lot of
    energy teaching my children legalities.  Being a good person is not
    necessarily equated with some sort of legal document.  In fact I have
    often seen some morally indefensible legal documents. 

Um, would she be very likely to listen, even if you did tell her, or would she 
just put it down to 'sour grapes' or even jealousy or something since it's your
ex she'd be marrying.... 

(PLEASE, I'm NOT suggesting anything like this is the case!!  But remember that 
it might be viewed that way by someone else - especially if *she* thinks he's 
wonderful, or at least seems to be sufficiently 'in love' to get engaged to him 
before her divorce is complete)

However, his behavior/problem was known to others, could a third party who knows
all of you (or at least you and her??) be the one to talk to her...?

Unfortunately such advice is usually ignored, whatever the source, or only 
remembered when things go sour.  Much like trying to warn someone of *anything*
they're doing that's self-destructive but currently "fun"? :-)

Sorry, this isn't much help to you, I'm afraid....

		Helen

    Re: .5

    No, she is just now filing for divorce (as in a couple of months ago)
    However, her and my Ex have been sharing weekends/vacations together as 
    much as possible for the last 2.X years that *I* know of.

    Re: .6

    That's a good idea...  I'm not sure who we know in common, but its
    something that I can at least look into. That's one of the reasons I
    haven't said anything yet, I couldn't see how to have it not come off as
    "sour grapes"...  the only thing I could point out to her was that I
    divorced him, not the other way around if that would help not look
    like sour "grape"ing...

    Part of the problem I see is that they were childhood and
    junior high school sweethearts... I'm not sure if that makes it any
    difference or not...   I just don't want her getting hurt...  maybe
    their marriage will work and last 50 years...  I sure hope for their
    sake that once they can get married (which it seems will be many years
    off, as her husband is contesting the divorce - I'm not sure how NY
    court cases work), that it does work...
    
    g

Gale,

I'm sure it is troubling to stand by and watch this take place.  However,
she does have the right to make her own choices.  If you prefer those choices
to be more informed, that is a risk you will be taking.  It may come off as
sour grapes and it may be completely dismissed.  You cannot force her not to
marry him and you can't force her to listen to you.  If they did have a
relationship at another time, I'm sure she's aware of some of what she is 
buying into.  She also may be insecure about being alone if her divorce is
not final and she's already looking to be married again.

My ex and his girlfriend have a sicker relationship than we ever had and she
chooses to stay in it.  Its OKAY for her, but it wasn't okay for me.  She was
there when he was presented with my restraining order a few years ago, but she
was convinced it wouldn't happen to her.  Her denial and insecurity was so 
great, she could NOT SEE what he had done to me because she didn't want to.  
She needed this man in her life at that time to play a certain role and that
was the end of that.  They're still together and they're miserable but they
obviously have unhealthy needs that are being met in the relationship.  She'd
rather be with him than be alone.  *I* can't force her to get out of the
relationship and, after 3 years, she should have enough information to make
that choice but she doesn't want to.  The woman involved with your ex seems
confused, insecure and thats her *stuff* to deal with or not deal with.  It
may take a lot more than words of advice from you to get her untangled.  

For my kids I can only model certain behaviors and let them decide on their
own which way is better.  I did not run into a relationship directly after
my separation.  I dated a few people, had one or two relationships and talked
to them about choices and healthy relationships.  I have been in a good and
healthy relationship for the past year and my kids can see the difference in
the 2 households and how they operate and they prefer to be home, with me.
They comment on how different it is and they're not stupid, they see which
way is preferable.  Your daughters will not get the message its OKAY to 
wreck someone else's marriage, they will see, in the future what comes of
that.  

In the end, you can only help your daughters by showing them ANOTHER way.
The woman who is about to marry your ex is making her own choices and
whether or not you agree with her, in the end its her choice to make.
If you decide to tell her something, just tell her in a matter of fact
way "Look, I'm not sure if you're aware of this but..." and then drop it.
If you feel you MUST say something, say it, just be prepared for the fact
that it might not be heard for reasons that have nothing to do with you.
Lots of people say "For me it will be different." and really believe that.
Theres no changing that until they want it to change.

Best of luck,
Susan

I know how you feel a little.  My ex left me in the month of August (not last
year) and got engaged in December - we weren't divorced yet, nor was the women
he got engaged to.  He just wanted a divorce from me to marry her.  As time
grew on, (4 months after they got engaged) he wanted me back so he left her.
During those 4 months before he left her, he would send me messages over the
tube (he used to work for DEC) saying things like how much he missed me, she's
not what he wanted and very personal things about them that he didn't like.
Well, after he left her and found out I wouldn't let him back in the house
right away, he went straight back to her door step 3 days later.  So, I
thought she should know everything that went on in the last 4 months so she
could realize that she was doing the wrong thing by marrying him.  (And I
DON'T LIKE this woman - just I think no one deserves to be treated like dirt)
I xeroxed everything (the notes and letters he sent me,) highlighted the
dates and sent them to her with a letter.  She sent them all back to me - and
still wants to marry him - she had it in black and white how he felt about her
and me and she still wants to marry him.  If someone did that to me I"d like
to "think" I"d leave the creep. It's been almost 2 years now and they still
aren't married and we've been divorced since November. He now says he "Won't"
marry her.  I'm getting remarried in June and he insists I have no right to.
Funny how the tables turn sometimes huh?  

So, even if you do say something to her, it won't work - she has to "live and
learn" and find out on her own - love can be blind.  It probably wouldn't do
you any good except maybe put you in "fights" or whatever with your ex
husband.  Your children and her children?  They'll probably be ok - kids are
smart and can handle much more than we believe they can.  Also, there is 
always the possibility that he is a very different man with her than he was 
with you. I know that my ex is different with "her" than he was with me and I 
know that I'm very different with my fiance (sp?) than I was with him.  I"d 
stay out of it and let them live their own life and you live your own life.  
I'd worry about "MYSELF and my CHILDREN" before I"d worry about another woman.

/Colleen

    I more or less agree with .6.  Say something somehow to the woman if
    you like her and don't want to see her hurt, even if you take a risk
    by doing it, but then DROP IT. At that point you'll have done what
    you should have, and the choice is up to her after that.....
    
    Good luck.
    
    ....Bob

    One other point I don't think I've seen in these replies - different
    people bring out different qualities in people.  It isn't written in
    stone that this man's current relationship is or will be exactly like his
    others.  Are all of your relationships pretty much the same?  Don't
    some bring out your good side, some your bad, etc?
    
    This is not to say that this woman has turned a creep into a prince but
    she may have qualities that make her able to deal with his "negative
    qualities" and diffuse their power to disrupt.  Also, time has passed and 
    this man's motivation may have increased which might not be visible to the 
    ex since it's very possible they both fall into their old roles when 
    interacting and new attitudes are not noticed or expressed.
    
    I'd say myob.  You can't save another person for their own good,
    especially if it's not even certain that any saving is needed.  When
    you set him free, you set him free.  Bow out.  For better or for worse,
    it's her turn now. 

    	I agree with .11.  Like that line from "The Accidental Tourist",
    "Maybe it isn't how much you love someone, maybe it's who you are when
    you're with them."  I've noticed it in myself -- and I believe it's
    true for most everyone -- that different people bring out different
    things in me.  Just because things were one way between you and him is
    no guarantee that it'll be that way with this other person.


    	Stay away.  I can't think of any good you could do, and you might
    only make some people miserable.  I know the temptation you're talking
    about, but I'd just forget about it.


    Brian

    Even though they aren't married yet, aren't YOU showing your kids
    it's OK to wreck someone elses marriage by getting involved in their
    business.  What if you butt in, and the marriage does not take place.
    No one will ever know if it would have worked.
    
    Besides, alot of men do all their changing for someone else.  My
    first husband did.  And, I have to admit, I have done alot of changing
    for my current husband.  He is reaping the benefits of what I learned
    in marriage number one.  What NOT to do.
    
    I say you are a bit jealous and maybe even afraid he will change
    for her but he didn't for you.  Deep inside you may be hoping it
    falls apart.  This is quite normal feelings.  You are human, it's
    OK.
    
    My opinion is this.  Stop spending your time worrying about what
    your EX is doing with WHOMEVER.  Get on with your own life.  If
    he was such a scumbucket during your marriage, you owe it to yourself
    to find someone else and get on with your life.  You deserve to
    be happy.  And maybe, your EX and the girlfriend, deserve each other,
    in their own sick little way.

    
.13>    I say you are a bit jealous and maybe even afraid he will change
.13>    for her but he didn't for you.  Deep inside you may be hoping it
.13>    falls apart.  This is quite normal feelings.  You are human, it's
.13>    OK.
    

    Well, I can *assure* you in no way, shape or form am I even the
    littlest bit jealous...  nor do I deep inside hope it fails.


    But.. thanks to all the replies...  the night my 15 year old tried to
    commit suicide, this lady and I talked for over three hours...  One of
    the things she asked me was "Did {the-ex} ever treat you as bad as he
    treats me at times, and then went on to list many things that he did to
    her...  That night I did talk to her, about how he did treat me, and
    the girls, and well...  I guess in a way you could say I have warned
    her...   

    I guess the good-person in me doesn't want her hurt, or her kids hurt,
    but the realist in me says that there is nothing I could say or do
    that would change the situation at this point in time.

    I did consider having someone else talk to her, however, I don't run in
    the circles he does anymore, so I don't know anyone that knows all the
    players...

    What I've decided to do is just let her know that I am still available
    to talk if she ever needs it.

    thanks again...

    I think you made a good decision to not say anything but to let
    her know you're there if she wants to talk.  I think people who
    are in love (or think they're in love) aren't about to take advice
    from anybody.  
    
    It's too bad your husband isn't a good father to your daughters...I
    know the feeling because I have a son and I'm raising him on my
    own...the father is living with another woman, who wants to marry
    him ASAP.  Only he still calls me and complains about her!  (Just
    what I want to hear!!!)  I prefer to let them work out their own
    problems.  I'm enjoying my life just fine without him!
    
    Hope things work out for you!
    
    P.S.  Teenage years are the roughest, I think the best thing you
    could do for your daughter is to just show YOU CARE!!!!
    
    Tonia

    Gale...
    Not everybody interacts with your ex the way you do or did.  It's not
    inconceivable that those things which were major problems for you will
    not be a problem at all for her.  Unless you are on close personal
    terms with this woman already, run, do not walk, away from trying to
    influence her.  No one will benefit from you trying to "warn" her...
    absolutely no one.  And YOU will lose!  You *will* be seen as being
    vindictive, self-serving, or mean-spirited (any or all or more) by at
    least the casual observer... 
    
    Your daughters have already formed their opinions about dad and right
    vs. wrong.  They live with YOU, and look to YOU for signals... and if
    you signal them that it's ok to meddle... is that what you want?
    
    Even if it's the worse mistake the woman could possibly make, it is HER
    mistake.  Unless she comes to you and asks for your advise, don't offer
    it!
    
    tony
    (nice to see ya agin' Gale!)