Conference quark::human_relations-v1

RE: Anon:

I appreciate your honesty and your willingness to bring this issue up and do
something about it. The question that immediately came up when I read your
note was:

Are you in Massachusetts?

Don't flame me for making sweeping generalizations about the rudeness
of Massachusetts folks.  I know there are good people there.  (I'm from
there!)  However, I recently made a trip to Mass after living in Colorado
for 2 years.  I couldn't believe the rudeness!

1.  The trip through the Callahan/Sumner tunnel was deathly. I tried to
    merge but no one let me through. I finally stopped the car, turned to
    the car next to me and threw up my hands.

2.  A waitress at a restaurant in Cambridge gave me a dirty look because I
    asked for utensils so I could eat my meal.  I guess I could have used
    my fingers....

3.  The cashier at a store that shall remain nameless was put out because I
    went to her register with my items.  The whole store could hear her
    sighs and see her rolling eyes.

Now, to put things in perspective, I got *great service* at the
rental car agency. The agent was helpful and friendly. That was
refreshing.

I couldn't wait to get back to the Springs, where common courtesy
abounds. (Okay, we have our share of rudeness too, but it is outweighed
by the amount of courtesy I see.)

What can we do about it?

1.  I think the base noter mentioned that we can't get down to rude
    people's level.  That won't help.   The best tactic is to make sure
    that you remain courteous and friendly.  

    (Isn't New York starting a "Be Nice" campaign?)

2.  If you're dissatisfied with an employee's behavior/attitude in a store,
    restaurant, or other business, bring it up.  Write a letter
    to the store manager and to the company's relations department.
    
3.  If you find an employee who portrays a good company image (cheery,
    helpful, polite), let that employee and his/her supervisor know.

4.  Move to another place that treats people with consideration. 8)

You're not alone in your observations. Good luck.

KMW    

    
    Dear Anon!
    
    What a wonderful issue you've raised.  I have often asked myself the
    same question.
    
    Regarding traffic...people are in such a darn hurry!  Unfortunately,
    I'm one of them.  I'm so much into the habit of driving fast that I
    don't even stop to think about it.  Now that you've mentioned it, I
    will think about it.  I have to agree with reply .1...it does indeed
    matter where you live.  For instance, drivers in Cleveland haven't
    realized what a turn signal is.  Pittsburgh is slightly better - we use
    them but only for two blinks.  In Cleveland, if you see someone in
    opposing traffic waiting to make a left, you hit the accelerator.  In
    Pittsburgh, most people will slow down if there's not much traffic
    ahead of them.  When I moved here from Upstate, I kept my NY plates on
    for a year..it was rather funny.  I would stop and let people out and
    they would stare in amazement.
    
    As for rude people in stores - don't lower yourself.  For one thing,
    you never know what the other person may be going through - give them
    the benefit of doubt.  Sometimes, if you say a kind word or give a
    cheery greeting, it can make all the difference.  I do believe that if
    we give feedback, we can create more awareness.
    
    I think many of us are so wrapped up in our own little world, that we
    don't realize some of the things we do.  But don't you change - if you
    influence just one person, then you've done a world of good.  
    
    I also would like to thank you - you've made me realize how fortunate
    I am to work with the group of people in my unit.  Perhaps there are
    people in your unit who are unhappy and unfortunately take it out on
    those around them.  Have you ever approached them?  You might want to
    kindly ask them if everything is ok, if there is anything you can do,
    or such...get the lines of communication flowing.  Afterall, they may
    not even realize that they are hurting others.
    
    We can't change the world in one sweep but perhaps if we start in small
    circles, we can enlarge it within time and with more people.
    
    Kris

	 
	 
         RE: .0

	 This is the one thing that I don't look forward to in any way
	 shape or form with this impending move.

	 I will NOT give up saying "thank you" and smiling.  I will
	 not give up giving a cheery hello to people in the street.

	 I feel it's there right to be rude and angry all the time
	 just as much as it's my right to be happy and cheerful.
	 Perhaps a little of it will rub off on them?

	 Who cares.....Don't let 'em get you down..smother them with
	 kindness.

	 When someone's rude to me like that, I tend to be extra nice
	 in return so that it's very apparent that they were rude.
	 When people are like that all the time they have no idea how
	 to not be like that......

	 I guess it's just a sort of "value their difference"..let 'em
	 be rude but don't stoop to their level.  Give 'em a smile and
	 smother them with kindness!

	 kath

    
    It's odd but now the author has me wondering about my driving habits! 
    I noticed yesterday that I'm more willing to horn that arrogant jerk
    driving the Mercedes (Yes, the idiot who almost swideswiped me
    yesterday because he was in the wrong lane) than I am the little old
    lady driving the Cavalier.  It almost as if I give some people more
    lee-way.
    
    Oh, I did think of this notefile last night...there was an accident
    near one of the tunnels and as I SAT there without moving for over
    an hour, I had to laugh.  People would begin tooting songs with their
    horn and then another motorist would finish it.  I wonder....would they
    do that in Mass?  Also, if it hadn't been raining, I'm sure more people
    would have been out of their cars and talking to each other.  
    
    Kris
    

    
    In all my many trips I've only had to flip off one Mass driver...
    for gratuitously trying to cut me off at the 2-2A fork outside
    Concord....
    
    Most of the time I have no trouble driving in Mass. I have learned
    to drive purposefully, and to avoid known problem areas.. give
    crazies room and avoid contests with cabbies.. Following a cab is 
    often the best way to get through the Summner and across the bridge
    into Cambridge. 
    
    LA, now there is a circus for you... lots of excersize for that
    middle finger...unless you are afraid of getting shot!
    

    Great subject!
    
    
    I have asked this same question over and over....why is everyone so
    rude and inconsiderate?  Unfortunately, it gets to me and sometimes it
    get contagious.  I try not to, but after a while I get "shell shock".
    
    "They" say courtesy is contagious....but I wonder if it is in
    Massachusetts.  I guess I'll give it a try and maybe, just mabye it
    might work...
    
    -Dotti.

 re: driving

 If you find that many people are giving you the finger and/or horn treatments,
there may be some aspect of your driving which is irritating them. Are you
a slow driver? Do you tend to tend to cause many drivers to go around you?
Do you fail to use turn signals until it is too late for it to be of any use
to anyone? Try to figure out WHY people are upset with you; then decide if you
are the cause of the problem or if they are just being jerks. 

 re: general rudeness

 Everyone is tired of having their things taken away and of being taken 
advantage of. So people tend to guard their space and their things. Alot of
people are tired of dealing with rude people, so they automatically assume that
anyone they meet is going to be rude.

 It's tough to not be rude when everyone around you is rude. but it's worth it.

 The Doctah

    re .0, I agree with you except I would like to make a comment about
    one of your statements.  I don't think everyone is on a "successful
    career path" as you said.  I certainly don't think it's obvious
    that the person at the check-out counter is on a "successful career
    path."  There are also all types of jobs within Digital and we're
    not all on a "successful career path."  There are people cleaning
    the restrooms, emptying waste baskets, operating the cash registers
    in the cafeteria and working as secretaries.  I don't mean to imply
    that that gives these people an excuse to be rude, I'm merely saying
    that the supposed fact that they are on "successful career paths"
    is not a reason why they shouldn't  be rude.  Whenever people in
    service type jobs are rude to me, I try to consider the fact that
    they are probably low-paid, bored, treated as non-persons by the
    customers they are waiting on or professionals they are supporting,
    perhaps are also badly treated by their immediate supervisors, and
    have perhaps come to have a sense of hopelessness about their own
    lives.  In other words, bosses and the general public could also
    be a little bit nicer and appreciative to people who work in support
    and service jobs.
    
    Coincidentally, yesterday I bought a few things at a grocery store.
     I had not bothered to check to see how much cash I had left and
    I had not added up the items in my cart.  When I got to the cash
    register I realized I was $2.00 short.  I said, "Oh, I'm sorry,
    I'm $2.00 short.  I won't get the ice cream.  Could you deduct it
    for me?"  The young woman at the cash register didn't say a thing!
     She actually glared at me, grabbed the ice cream off the counter
    and said to another worker, "Will you return this for me?" in an
    angry voice.  She was definately put out, but I realize the job
    probably s*cks and she was probably tired, etc.
    
    The worst incident that has happened to me recently was on a subway
    in Boston last month.  It was very crowded and I had to stand-up.
     A man who looked like a "tramp" or "hobo" or homeless person, or
    whatever,  (I think you must get the idea), had missed his stop
    and wound up standing next to me.  He started talking at me in a
    loud voice saying things like, "What do I do now?  I missed my stop!
     My God I can't walk home!  Hey, you, what do I do now?  What  stuck-up
    B*tch!  Hey, lady I'm talkin to you!", etc.  I was very frightened
    and embarrassed.  The man was wearing filthy clothes, rags really,
    was dirty, including food hanging in his moustache and beard, had
    broken brown teeth and was obviously either mentally and or drunk.
     He was a lot bigger than me, was jammed up against me, yelling
    a monologue at me.  I was very frightened, even though on another
    level I did feel very sorry for him.  But, I didn't know how to
    deal with him.  The train was jammed with other people, all
    well-dressed and mostly young.  All of these people were *laughing*
    at me and this man. They were openly laughing at this poor man,
    and were laughing at my discomfort.  No one bothered to come to
    my aid for a very long 5 mins. or so, when finally a well dressed
    man about *60* yrs. old, who wasn't laughing, stepped forward and
    told the poor man to get off at the next stop, and the man did.
     I couldn't believe it!  One elderly man was the only person on
    that packed train was the only person to not laugh at the poor man's
    condition, or to realize my discomfort and come to my aid.  All
    of the young, well-dressed people were openly laughing at both me
    and the man.  I thought it was extremely rude and uncaring of all
    the people there.  I was almost as embarrassed at being laughed
    at by all those young, well-dressed people as I was frightened of
    the poor man who was yelling at me.  (This incident took place on
    the Boston T.)
    
    I have, also, thought for a long time that the one single thing
    I dislike the most about the human race is the rude way most people
    act when they drive cars.
    
    Lorna
      
    jobs. 

    
    	Here at FXO, I overheard a guy talking about how rude the
    	cook in the cafe was and what a jerk that person was. Funny
    	thing was, I had thought the same, only difference was from
    	where I was standing the only rude jerk was the customer!!
    
    	Some feel just because they're the customer they have carte blanc
    	to abuse another  person and belittle them. This Deccie had
    	no reason to talk down to that person. Had it been me behind
    	the counter, he would have been lucky to get away with "RUDE"
    	AND all his teeth! You don't call someone a stupid, lazy,
    	bitch just because she didn't hear your order!!
    
    	G_B

Re.: .9,

I wonder if you can find an interesting lesson in your own reply. 

Rudeness begets rudeness: people who are brought up rudely (or even,
occasionally treated rudely) tend to treat others rudely. Sometimes,
there's a chicken and egg effect: it's difficult to determine
whether a person is rude because they are low on the totem pole of
life, or are lowly, because they are rude. 

Whatever starts this ball rolling, it rolls in one direction only;
that is, more people get ruder all the time. If you wish to reverse
the trend, you have to proactively do something positive. For
instance, in your story you could have said to the man "Oh, I am so
sorry you missed your stop. What are you going to do now? Don't you
think you had better get off on the next stop?". As you stood there,
embarrassed, he probably felt that by shunning him, *you* were very
rude to *him*. 

People on the T are going to be ruder, because the very essence of
their situation is rude. People who only drive don't see the
rudeness on the T and thus, tend to be more friendly. Taking the
same logic further, people who get driven around by a chauffeur
would be more gracious still. 

This point was driven home for me this past weekend, when I had to
attend a black tie affair in a private country club (I hate dressing
up and normally try to avoid these affairs but in this particular
case, the wife put her tiny foot down). One couldn't ignore the
affluent surrounding, the careful selection of the people allowed to
invade the environment, the absolutely top notch food and the
excellent and very friendly service. 

With all these factors, no wonder the social interaction was
graciousness personified. A hobo off the T could have spoiled the
evening, but there were three heavy set men, in impeccable tuxes,
at the door to the clubhouse... 

The lesson is that, yes, there **is** rudeness all around us. We
have almost no control over it except if we try to detach ourselves
from the places where it most often occurs. It's up to us not to
associate with rude people, who can easily drive **us** to rude
behaviour, because 'they deserve to be treated rudely'. 

At the same time, and where ever we are, if we choose to treat
others graciously and with kindness (as difficult as it may seem),
we will be contributing our little something to the improvement of
this world. We certainly do have control over our immediate
surrounding in the family and close circle of friend. 

-- Ron

    I know that I am MUCH ruder and impatient (which I think is the
    real basis for "rudeness") this time of year.  As winter continues
    to drag out (at least on the east coast) I probably drive faster,
    more carelessly, have little patience for others, and overall am
    very antsy and nasty. 
    
    I have noticed that the first few days of spring when the weather
    is just perfect everyone is in a great mood and more patient and
    caring of others.  This could explain why the natives of Hawaii are
    the nicest, most generous lot I've ever met in my life.
    

    Re .11, Ron, you know what I look like so you know how small I am.
     I was afraid to say anything to this man.  He was huge and he looked
    appalling.  I barely came to his shoulder.  I was raised and have
    always lived in small towns and I am not used to dealing with these
    situations.
    
    I think you also know, Ron, that I am not a rude person to deal
    with.
    
    I have seen too many rude people with high level degrees and high
    paying jobs to believe that people become poor by being rude.
    
    Lorna
    

    Re .11, also, the reason I ride the T is to escape from the rudeness
    of Boston drivers, and most of the time it works.  I ride the T
    a lot and the incident I described in .9 is the only time I have
    been subjected to any rudeness on the T.  If you read .9 carefully
    you would see that it was the well-dressed, "normal" people on the
    T whom I was calling rude for laughing at the "tramp" type person
    and myself.  I was not calling the man, who was obviously in desperate
    straights, rude.
    
    Lorna
    

    re:  .11
    
    Ron,
    
    You theory of how to avoid places where one might meet rude people is
    fine, except how do I avoid the rude drivers in their cars on my way
    into work???
    
    -Dotti.

    >Your theory of how to avoid places where one might meet rude people is
    >fine, except how do I avoid the rude drivers in their cars on my way
    >into work???
    
    Went riding with a friend (an older gentleman) recently.  He drove,
    I rode, other drivers were especially nutso.  My friend didn't seem
    to mind.  I asked him "How can you stay so calm in the face of such
    bad driving?"  He answered "Easy.  I just drive one car."
    
    I loved his answer.  Since then, I've tried it.  If I drive one car,
    and don't try to drive anyone else's, other people's driving doesn't
    bother me nearly as much.
    
    					andrew

    I think it was all Henry Ford's fault for coming up with the idea of 
    mass produced cars.  Were it not for him, only the very rich
    would be able to buy cars and, hence, be rude.
    
    Eugene 

    I too think this is a great discussion...rudeness...
    It continually baffles me as to why people are so rude.  I constantly
    have doors slammed in my face (when the person in front of me knew I
    was right behind them)....yet I always hold the door for someone if
    I see them coming...its only common courtesy right - and believe it
    or not, most often than not, people don't even say THANKYOU!  
    
    Well I'll keep trying, haven't given up on the human race yet.
    
    EMS

    Re:  .16
    
    Andrew,
    
    That's great!  I'll have to re-train myself not to get upset by
    "driving one car"!  #:-)
    
    -Dotti.

Re: .13, .14, .15,

First, Lorna,

Far be it from me (and I mean, real far) to imply that you were in
any way rude or behaved incorrectly in your example. All I said was
that, if in other people's perception we are rude to them, they tend
to respond by being rude to us (because 'rudeness begets rudeness')
and, from that point on, it goes nowhere but downhill. 

The other point I was making had to do with the environment.
GENERALLY (and I know everyone's brother here is an exception), the
more affluent it is, the more gracious it's going to be. My example
of the 'T' vs. a country club was an exaggeration, but it does
illustrate the idea. I realize this is not going to sit well with
many people (I am as democratic as the next guy), nonetheless, I
believe it is reality. 

Dotti, you are right we cannot avoid the rush hour crowd on the
road. I also said we can contribute our little something to improve
neighborly behaviour on the road by personally demonstrating it. One
day, when I get a round tuit, I will be doing this myself.
Meanwhile, I see my wife doing it daily, with moderate success. 

Driving on Mass. roads aside, I do tend to avoid places where I am
particularly likely to meet rude people. Not as an all encompassing
principle, but as a small consideration I keep in the back of my 
mind when thinking of where to go.

-- Ron

    We're an impatient lot.  That's why we're rude.
    
    In all honesty, I cannot see why Mass. drivers are considered to
    be more rude than other drivers.  What I see when I drive the roads
    is no more rudeness than I did in California, also another highly
    congested roadway state.  I don't think you see many rude drivers on a
    roomy, relatively thinly travelled road like the Turnpike as say,
    in one of the tunnels.   But when drivers are all bottlenecked up
    (especially when you discover the source of the bottleneck is someone
    slowing down to look at an orange pylon on the side of the road,
    or someone getting a ticket, or better yet, a car well off the side
    of the road, but stopped), they tend to get impatient to get where
    they were going.  Of course, everyone wants to go first, and no
    one wants to wait, and those extra seconds spent by letting someone
    in seem like hours, so.....
    
    As for general rudeness, yah, it's everywhere, always has been.
    What makes it more noticeable is that it is offensive, where pleasant,
    common courtesy isn't as noticable because we as a people tend to
    take that for granted.  It's the striking behavior that stands out.
    
    ---kim 

    
    
    I don't typically get into this conference (I'm more of a Digital and
    DEC_Seccretary noter!), but someone referred me to this topic, so I figured
    I'd take a look.  Of specific concern to the person who called me, and
    then to me, was Note 982.9, which stated: 

    "There are also all types of jobs within Digital and we're
    not all on a 'successful career path.'  There are people 
    cleaning the restrooms, emptying waste baskets, operating
    the cash registers in the cafeteria and working as 
    secretaries.  I don't mean to imply that that gives
    these people an excuse to be rude, ..."

At the risk of being rude myself, I take particular offense at being
categorized as one with either an unsuccessful career path or no career
path at all.  I am a Secretary, and stand very proud with that title.  I've
worked my way up through my career path, beginning as a Senior Secretary to
my present title of Executive Secretary.  From here, countless options are
available to me.  Moreover, Digital has many other Professional Secretaries
who take great pride in their work and who do not see it as a means to an
end.  We are critical to this company, and our worth is well recognized.  If
you doubt this sentiment, go into MOSAIC::DEC_SECRETARY and see for
yourself.  We have an astounding group of secretaries in this company; it is
a group of which you should all be proud. 

In response to the topic of this note, if someone has such a disrespectful
attitude of my profession, I wouldn't feel it inappropriate to treat them
with similar disrespect.  I demand respect from those with whom I work.  If
it is not returned to me, it may not be given.  In the note to which I
referred, secretaries were lumped into some apparently undesirable category
with those in other service areas.  This "lumping" leads me to believe that
the noter (and many others) has a derrogatory attitude toward those in the
service field.  It is likely that that attitude exhibits itself, either
openly or less obviously, to others.  People pick up on those attitudes.  I
am willing to bet that service personnel, minorities, and any others who
have felt the barb of discrimination, will attest to the patronizing way in
which they have been treated, and will further attest to their rudeness
in response to that patronization.  Not all people respond that way, but 
many do and may well be justified in doing so.  I would suggest that people
echoing this sentiment--about dead end careers for service
personnel--consider their attitudes carefully.  We all have jobs to do,
whether those jobs be secretarial, janitorial, clerical, or executive;
neither function is more important than the other, just different. 

Someone wrote earlier that "rudeness begets rudeness".  This is quite true,
and it can happen in both conscious and subconscious levels, as is quite
well documented.  For example, a classic case taught in Psych-101 entails a
series of actors walking into a supermarket.  Each actor is told to
treat the market personnel in various ways (mad, sad, happy, jokingly,
etc.).  Unanimously, the actor was treated in a manner MIRRORING his or her
behavior.  The market clerks, therefore, had no one set type of behavior; 
they adapted to the behaviors of their customers.   

In short, if people are treating you rudely, and if you find it
consistently, perhaps you ought to consider your own behavior, rather than
the "class" of individuals with whom you are dealing.  To go one step
further, you may find it interesting to take notes of the "class" of people
giving you the response and then consider your own feelings about people in
that class; if your feelings are patronizing or derrogatory, it wouldn't
surprise me if you are treated consistently by them with something less
than the utmost respect. 

On another vein, it's worthwhile to note that Massachusetts is going 
through a tremendously difficult time right now (and, no, I don't want to 
get into a duscussion about Dukakis!).  While people are under stress, they 
tend to lash out at others.  We have quite a percentage of our population 
worrying about their jobs; it isn't likely that this will make them any 
friendlier.

    Since stating work here at MK2 I always think to myself, how
    friendly the staff is in the caf. There is one cashier in particular
    who every morning has a smile and cheerful greeting for every
    customer that comes to her register. Here is someone who takes hundreds
    of peoples 45 cents for coffee every morning and would have every
    understandable right to be less than cheerful, but she is doing her
    job with enthusiasm and I respect that very much.
    
    I can not agree with the idea that just because some one is
    in a job that we perceive as menial that they have the "right" to
    be bored, rude, uncaring. Politeness shouldn't be the exception
    and as consumers we should demand it from management not roll over
    and play dead. If only management (not just retail either) would realize
    how important politeness is to their business, I think an imporoves
    attitude in business would carry over to our personal lives.
    
    Gail

    re:  .22
    
    Great stuff, Ruth.
    Thank you.
    
    
    -Dotti.

    Hi,
    
    
    Going back to the Rude Drivers... I can personally say that I seem to
    get impatient driving when I am on a time schedule, and lets face it,
    every day I'm on a time schedule :-).. that could be part of the reason
    why people don't seem to be too friendly today... I mean we are timed
    for work, for appointments (doctor, dentist... etc..) and you have to
    still PAY for these things even if you don't make the appointment..
    and if you have childeren, then that is even funner... you get charged
    alot of money for every minute that your late in picking them up. 
    Things have changed ALOT in the last 20 years or so, people probably
    figure that they have to guard themselves from being taken in or take
    advantage of... and I really dis-agree as far as Massachusetts being
    the rudest of places.. I don't travel much, but from the places that I
    have been people are all the same, some rude, some friendly.. and so
    on.

    RE:
    
    >>(..because 'rudeness begets rudeness')
    
    Who invented rudeness ?  Who began this rudeness thing ?
    Was it spread from parent to children ? Inventor to customers. ? etc..

    
    Judging from some of these replies...
    
    I'd say it began in Massachusetts!  :-)
    
    
    Kris
    

    re .22, Ruth, as sometimes happens when people attempt to communicate
    over a terminal, you completely misunderstood everything that I
    had to say in .9.
    
    I am an Admin. Secretary at Digital, and have been employed here
    for 14 1/2 yrs.  I am always pleasant to everyone unless they are
    unpleasant to me first.   For 4 yrs. I want the contact person for
    one of the conference rooms at the Mill.  During this time I had
    several people comment on the fact that of all the secretaries they
    had to call on a frequent basis to look for a conference room, that
    I was the only one who was always pleasant.  
    
    When I lumped secretaries in with people at cash registers, emptying
    waste baskets and cleaning restrooms I did it deliberately.  I did
    it because we are all the lowest paid people at Digital, and most
    professional people seem to think deservedly so, because our jobs
    require just simple skills.  I did this because the person who started
    this topic in .0, made the blanket statement that everyone had DEC
    is on a positive career path, or some such.  This just isn't the
    case.  I am not looking down on my own job of admin. sec. or on
    the janitors or cafeteria personnel.  I am simply being realistic.
     People with WC4 professional jobs, are making good money at Digital
    and can expect to make more.  There are very few *executive*
    secretaries at Digital, as you well know.  The last I knew the top
    salary for an admin. was about $27K - the top pay.  I'm sorry, but
    in this day and age, I do not consider that a good career path,
    and would do everything possible to dissuade any young people from
    choosing it.  Far more sensible to choose a career path, such as
    hardware engineer where the top pays are at least in the high $60K's.
    
    I was not putting anyone down.  I was simply saying that in the
    U.S. today most people measure success buy money, and comparatively
    speaking secretaries do not earn much money.  However, it is true
    that executive secretaries earn more than other secretaries which
    is probably why you are more pleased with your position.
    
    Lorna
    

    Lorna,
    
    I hear what you're saying, both in .9 and in .28; however, I still must
    beg to differ.  Career paths **ARE** there; one needs only to look and
    give it some effort.  Admittedly, it is more difficult for a secretary
    to earn gobs of money, but it is by no means impossible, and that's
    assuming that money gobs are a sole objective.
    
    Let's start with your apparent assumption that a secretary's sole
    career path is the Executive Secretary position.  First, the ceiling
    for Admin. is higher than $27K.  Second, a secretary can make it to Sr.
    Exec. Sec., and earn over $40K.  As I see it, when one combines over-
    time rates at time and a half pay, that gives A SECRETARY the potential
    to earn more than many of his/her "professional" peers.  However, I
    differ as well with your assumption that Exec. Sec. is our only career
    path.  We have many other options.  Think of what you're learning on a
    day-to-day basis:  people management, project management, accounting,
    marketing, etc., etc., etc.  I think of my position as an
    "apprenticeship" wherein I learn phenomenally from my manager; I learn
    more here than I could ever hope to learn in school (and I know whereof
    I speak after having completed my degree in business management).  I am
    privy to more information regarding the administration of this office
    than are ANY of my manager's subordinates.  Further, you have
    Engineering as an option, or software development, or any of those
    other fields, because you are in the unique position of having exposure
    to EVERYTHING in this company!  And you're also in the unique position
    of being able to "job hop" from one specialized area into another in
    order to investigate these options; we have much more flexibility than
    does a sw engineer, for example, whose skills may be applicable primarily
    in the SW Engineering group.  I can't tell you how many times I've heard
    exempts complain that they can't move to different fields without
    having to take level cuts.  We secretaries have an extreme luxury here
    and shouldn't overlook that.
    
    Again, I have to stress the point that YOU have to look inside of
    YOURSELF.  And this isn't aimed at you as a person; this "you" is a
    "global you", all you secretaries out there or all of you people who
    interact with secretaries and others in the service field.  The
    attitude you (globally) have toward these people is reflected in your
    feelings about them.  For example, Lorna, you say "...because our jobs
    require just simple skills."  I *DO* hope you were speaking in terms of
    others' perceptions of the job, because secretarial skills in Digital
    are **NOT** simple!  I'm a programmer, field service representative,
    travel agent, psychologist, mind reader, and everything in between!!!!
    Our jobs are probably the most complex and varied of almost any jobs I
    know.  
    
    Lastly, you say that "most people measure success buy [sic] money, and
    comparatively speaking secretaries do not earn much money."  I'll agree
    with you on the second point; however, I know many people who don't
    measure success by money.  What about job enrichment, diversity,
    adventure, importance, etc., etc., etc.?  I like my job because I feel
    IMPORTANT to my manager, to my group, and to Digital.  I like it because 
    I feel valued.  I like the diversity.  Each day for me is a new
    adventure; I could be doing floor plans for construction one minute,
    making computerized graphics for a vice presidential-level presentation
    the next minute, or organizing large functions the next.  Or, I may
    simply be handling various calls and interacting with people from all
    levels, geographies and companies.  THAT, to me, is job satisfaction. 
    I admit, as an Executive Secretary, I earn a respectable salary;
    however, I was just as pleased with my profession when I was an Admin
    Secretary and even when I was a Sr. Secretary.
    
    My apologies to fellow noters for the rat-hole here.  It's just that
    people shouldn't accept rudeness because someone is in a "dead end"
    job.  People CHOOSE their own destinies, their own careers.  If one
    doesn't like one's own choice, then change it.  We can't expect the
    world to serve us on silver platters; *we* have to proactively change
    and enhance our own lives.  We can't put that burden on The World, on
    Digital, or on our managers.  It's ours.  And we shouldn't tolerate or
    accept rudeness from ourselves or from others based on choices they've
    made which they don't like.  All we can do, as victims of rudeness, is
    bombard the rude person with friendliness and cheerfulness, and
    eventually someone's gonna crack a smile!  Or talk to the person and
    let him/her know how s/he is perceived.  Even if you feel you're going
    out of your way to be polite, your own internal biases can often be
    perceived on an intuitive/subconscious level by others.  You've got to
    BELIEVE in yourself and in your own life choices before you'll convey
    that confidence to others.
    
    

    Re .29, this is indeed a rathole, Ruth.  The person who started
    this topic seemed to be interested in discussing how rude humans
    sometimes act towards each other.
    
    I would think, but the moderator(s) may disagree, that perhaps you
    should start a new topic if you want to discuss how easily it is
    for secretaries to advance at DEC.  Then if there is anyone who
    cares to discuss this issue with you, they can do so.
    
    Lorna
    
    

re.30
They can advance as far as anyone else provided they put in the effort like
anyone else. I started below a sec's position with a degree in fire science
and have over 10 years advanced to a senior engineer. But I diden't waste time
on road blocks or complaining I put all my energy to better goals.

-j

    It's certainly possible for secretaries to advance at Digital.  But, as
    in every company, I hear a lot of "just a secretary" attitudes and see
    a lot of rudeness towards secretaries (which is usually answered with
    rudeness FROM secretaries (: >,).
    
    Ray

   Re:29 by Ruth.L    
        
  .29>                                                    It's just that
  .29>  people shouldn't accept rudeness because someone is in a "dead end"
  .29>  job.  People CHOOSE their own destinies, their own careers.  If one
  .29>  doesn't like one's own choice, then change it.  We can't expect the
  .29>  world to serve us on silver platters; *we* have to proactively change
  .29>  and enhance our own lives.  We can't put that burden on The World, on
  .29>  Digital, or on our managers.  It's ours.  And we shouldn't tolerate or
  .29>   accept rudeness from ourselves or from others based on choices they've
  .29>  made which they don't like.  All we can do, as victims of rudeness, is
       
                I agree with most of it.( About 98.5% of..)
             
  .29> let him/her know how s/he is perceived.  Even if you feel you're going
  .29>  out of your way to be polite, your own internal biases can often be
  .29>  perceived on an intuitive/subconscious level by others.  You've got to
  .29>  BELIEVE in yourself and in your own life choices before you'll convey
       
                 Worth repeating . Very  relevant to the basenote.  

I guess I have been raised in a vacume most of the secretaries I have delt with
have been the most respected and liked individuals in the department.
My department has lost several secretaries over the recent years ALL due to
moving on to bigger and better jobs within or outside of DEC.
I have delt with one that deserved zero respect because she was worthless
her day consisted of applying make-up and nail polish and talking on the phone
on personal calls. This individual was eventualy offered another less crucial
position where she repeated her performance before finaly being dismissed.

I'm a strong believer that behind any good manager is a better secretary
and the proof is all over.

-j

>    1. I'm trying to understand HOW people can be so rude?


    	I don't know, and I wish I knew.  One possibility is that's it's
    simply the snowball effect:  they had someone be rude to them, so
    they're in turn doing the same.  It's very easy to do and quite
    insidious in nature -- I've noticed it in myself at times, and I don't
    consider myself rude or impolite by nature.

    
>       Drivers are cutting me off and using the finger and the horn
>       more than ever.


    	Tell me about it.  I find myself swearing (although I try to tone
    it down when I have passengers  ;-)) more and more in the car.  It is
    MUCH harder to return such rudeness with calm equanimity; but I think
    it's becoming more and more imperative that we do just that.

    
    	One thing that I've noticed is that if you show someone some
    kindness, especially on the road, they are fairly likely to turn around
    and show the same thing to someone else.  I've seen it in traffic jams.
    If *that* snowball effect were to continue, we might all be so polite
    to each other we wouldn't even remember those four letter words.  ;-)


>    2. I have already considered that it is something I'm doing, but
>       I can't figure.


    	No, it's not you.  I think we're basically coming around full
    circle in some ways:  people are discovering that government can't
    *possibly* do it all by itself, and thus more and more of us are
    volunteering to help each other.  I think that's the only way things
    will really change.  Likewise, I think (I hope!) there will come a time
    when people will *have* to start being polite on the road or else we
    won't get anywhere.  I think it comes down to moving responsibility
    from the government to *us*.


    	One thing I've been doing since coming to work in the real world
    (almost 5 years ago -- yikes!) is I endeavor to joke and laugh with
    people most any chance I get.  I've noticed my coworkers have
    appreciated it (most of them, anyway  ;-)) and it's perked up the work
    environment a lot.  A laugh or smile can definitely change the way a
    person's day is going, and pretty soon they start to joke and laugh
    back.  "Laughter is infectious".


    	I've driven all around:  the south, midwest, north, northeast and
    the west.  I definitely feel the best drivers in general are the
    Californians.  Everyone obeys the laws, is courteaous and you don't see
    them riding each other's tails.  I think in large part this behaviour
    is because they *have* to -- with all the cars they have on the road,
    if they didn't act this way they wouldn't get anywhere.


    	Anyway, *don't* give in to rudeness!  Fight it with politeness
    every chance you get.


    Brian

    Re: .34

>I'm a strong believer that behind any good manager is a better secretary
>and the proof is all over.


    	I learned within a couple days of starting work that you can get on
    the wrong side of almost anyone in your group, but if you get on the
    wrong side of the secretary heaven help you!


    	This whole discussion reminded me of a story I once heard; I wish I
    could remember where, and I wish I could remember more of the details.
    Well, some guy is in dire straits and someone else comes along and
    helps him out (can't remember if it was life/death situation).  The
    first person, grateful, asks his benefactor how he can pay him back.
    The kindly person responds with,


    	"I do not seek any sort of repayment back from you for myself.  But
    I charge you with a solemn duty -- now you must go out and perform 10
    good deeds similar to what I have done for you.  And in turn you must
    pass this duty on to those you help.  I was once helped by someone who
    charged me with this office, and in a like manner I pass it on to you."


    	Sounds like a great idea to me.


    Brian

.35>    	No, it's not you.  I think we're basically coming around full
.35>    circle in some ways:  people are discovering that government can't
.35>    *possibly* do it all by itself, and thus more and more of us are
.35>    volunteering to help each other.  I think that's the only way things
.35>    will really change.  Likewise, I think (I hope!) there will come a time
.35>    when people will *have* to start being polite on the road or else we
.35>    won't get anywhere.  I think it comes down to moving responsibility
.35>    from the government to *us*.

    	What does the government have to do with common courtesy and/or
    people being polite or rude??

    	amy

Re:     <<< Note 982.35 by BROKE::BNELSON "While you see a chance take it" >>>

>    	I've driven all around:  the south, midwest, north, northeast and
>    the west.  I definitely feel the best drivers in general are the
>    Californians.  Everyone obeys the laws, is courteaous and you don't see
>    them riding each other's tails.  

I respectfully, and strongly, disagree.  My experience in driving in 
California is that high speed travel is common, tailgating is common, 
and in the Bay Area I have often found inattentive drivers doing 55 in
the left lane while traffic zooms around them on the right.  

For example, California is the only place in the country where I've been
run off the road (from the high speed lane into the median - US 101
heading towards Ventura from Los Angeles). 

Let me qualify me statements, that most of my California driving 
experience has been in the Los Angeles area, from Ventura to San Diego 
and in the San Francisco/Silicon Valley/Walnut Creek/Marin area.

I also have driven all over the country and don't feel any one part of
the country has any markedly worse or better drivers than any where
else.  A better characterization maybe rural versus urban drivers.  
Urban drivers I find to be more agressive, but far more attentive and 
aware.  Rural drivers may appear to be more courteous but in my 
experience, don't seem to pay attention to traffic around them.

Bob

    A co-worker told me about an incident she had with a rude driver who
    had cut her off at an intersection....she said she was very upset and
    starting yelling (inside her car where he couldn't hear but could see
    her lips moving) obscenities...as he passed in front of her he blew her
    a kiss!  She said she couldn't help but laugh and was not upset any
    more!!
    
    -Dotti.

    Re: .36
    
    Jerry Pournelle said it even more succinctly:  after helping out
    a neophyte SF author, she asked him how she could pay him back.
    He answered, "You can't pay it back.  You can only pay it forward".
    I may have my disagreements with Pournelle's outlook in other
    areas, but I like this particular idea!
    
    As for the general question of why rudeness seems to be rampant
    in our society... it's essentially the spread of bad karma.  You
    get stepped on, and it sets you up to go out and want to step
    on someone else.  Get stepped on enough, and pretty soon you feel
    like launching a few pre-emptive strikes...
    
    

    >[driver cut her off]... as he passed in front of her he blew her
    >a kiss!  She said she couldn't help but laugh and was not upset any
    >more!!
    
    Hmmm... I wonder in what spirit the kiss was intended... in my
    worst moments I've been known to blow someone a kiss for the
    express purpose of ratcheting up their blood pressure (you know...
    the type AA who tails you at 6" even though you're doing 70
    already... slowly drop back to 55, watch him get red in the
    face... then when he's finally able to pass you blow him a
    kiss.  That usually makes him pop a vein 8-) )
    
    

>    	What does the government have to do with common courtesy and/or
>    people being polite or rude??


    	Because as we move more responsibility from the government to
    ourselves, we get in a mode of helping each other more.  It seems to me
    that someone who's in the "Help thy fellow man" mode is less likely to
    be rude to said man.  I didn't say the government had anything to do
    with the point I was making; in fact, quite the opposite.


    	That's a great quote from Pournelle.  "Pay it forward" -- I like
    it!  Of course, I'll bet Melinda doesn't like it as much -- it rather
    clashes with her personal name....  ;-)  ;-)


    Brian

    In re: BNELSON (passim)
    
    Brian,
    
      While I applaud most of your conclusions about how we should treat
    each other, I deplore a couple of your premises.  Most especially, the
    "Help thy fellow human" modality can sometimes be expressed best, or
    most efficiently, or (often) only through "government."  The only real
    problem with "government" at the moment is that too many people have
    been sold the idea that it is a zero sum game (or worse) that they must
    try to "win."  "Government" isn't intrinsically a positive force all
    the time, but it can be the epitome of "helping each other."
    
      I think you also have driving rudeness wrong.  I second suggestions
    that you don't know California, and will also testify anywhere that you
    have a mistaken idea on East vs. Midwest.  Atlantic coast drivers (at
    least down to Maryland, though they're not as bad as New England) have
    been running each other off the road at least back to J.F.K. 
    Midwesterners (I only directly know Chicago and north) stop at stop
    signs, traffic lights, crosswalks, and random points of conflict, and
    have all along.  It has had nothing to do with ideological fashions.
    
    But more important, I agree with you.  Let's all conspire to act as
    though consideration of each other as individuals is contagious; we can
    make it come true!
    
    			- Bruce

    Bruce,

    
>      While I applaud most of your conclusions about how we should treat
>    each other, I deplore a couple of your premises.  Most especially, the
>    "Help thy fellow human" modality can sometimes be expressed best, or
>    most efficiently, or (often) only through "government."  The only real
>    problem with "government" at the moment is that too many people have
>    been sold the idea that it is a zero sum game (or worse) that they must
>    try to "win."  "Government" isn't intrinsically a positive force all
>    the time, but it can be the epitome of "helping each other."


    	Did I say that government is totally ineffective anywhere?  Did I
    state that government does nothing for anyone at any time?  No.  What I
    said is that government *can't* do everything by itself, which is why
    we have programs like the United Way, and the Walk for Hunger and so
    forth and so on.  People are volunteering to help each other more and
    more because they're realizing the government can't.  And it's
    unreasonable, in my opinion, to think otherwise.  The government has
    enough problems just governing, never mind administering programs such
    as this.  I do disagree that government can be the "best" way however;
    I personally feel that people helping each other is best.  And it's
    something I try to practice with those around me.

    
>      I think you also have driving rudeness wrong.  I second suggestions
>    that you don't know California, and will also testify anywhere that you
>    have a mistaken idea on East vs. Midwest.  Atlantic coast drivers (at
>    least down to Maryland, though they're not as bad as New England) have
>    been running each other off the road at least back to J.F.K. 
>    Midwesterners (I only directly know Chicago and north) stop at stop
>    signs, traffic lights, crosswalks, and random points of conflict, and
>    have all along.  It has had nothing to do with ideological fashions.


    	I expect others have had different experiences than I.  No big
    deal.  Both times (I admit I haven't had extensive exposure) I've been
    in CA I've had very positive driving experiences.  I have friends
    who've lived there who agree.  You haven't had those same experiences.
    So let's agree to disagree and leave it at that.  The midwest I found
    to be quite nice, and rank them 2nd, but getting behind a slow-moving
    farmer is the one negative thing that brought them down to 2nd!  ;-)


    	However, in no way do I "look with sorrow" or "regard as wrong"
    your opinions if you disagree with mine.


    Brian

    
    RE: 42, Brian...
    
    Hmmmm....
    
    Actually, since "P" was talking about "paying forward" a good deed, I
    would agree with him.
    
    My personal name refers to "fire and brimstone" justice. "Reap as ye
    shall sow..." and all that.
    
    Whether it relates to rudeness or whatever, I sort of enjoy it when
    folks get what they have dished out. I admit the frailty of the
    logic...ie: who judges is a real quandry...but the "symetry" of it
    appeals to my gut-level.
    
    As to rudeness...I think it is reprehensible when it is intentional and
    is executed with full knowledge that it [the action taken] "is" rude to
    the people or in the circumstances.
    
    On the other hand...much "rudeness" I see occurs because people do not
    share the same mores as the people they are rude to. It is not "rude"
    in my book when it is done out of misconception.
    
    The kicker I see, is that there is no generally acceptable method of
    saying to an offending person...
    
    "Excuse me Ms. Mumble-Mumle, that particular phrase [insert your own
    noun] is regarded as impolite in this company. I have tried that everal
    times to get the response "Bug-Off" for my effort.
    
    Our society is multifacted...it is d*** near impossible to keep
    straight what is the norm where. Yet we seem to have clung to our very
    parochial measures of rude/polite action. We are a dychotmy out of
    synch.
    
    As to drivers...good book that deals with a phenomenum that contributes
    to the ability of drivers to exhibit behavior that they would not think
    of exhibiting outside their cars...."The Territorial Imperative"...
    can't remember the author.
    
    ANyway...he discusses the psychological and societal background of
    "protection" behaviors...[many of which we would regard as *rude*
    behavior]....and why and when they get exhibited in contemporary
    humans.
    
    I meandered long enough...Hi Brian.
    
    Melinda

    	Re: Melinda
    
    
>    Actually, since "P" was talking about "paying forward" a good deed, I
>    would agree with him.
    
>    My personal name refers to "fire and brimstone" justice. "Reap as ye
>    shall sow..." and all that.


    	Yes, actually I rather thought you might agree with him.  It was
    funny, though:  the *first* thing that came to my mind was your
    personal name just after I read that quote.  So I just *couldn't*
    resist the temptation to put in a little tease!  ;-)


    Brian

    Actually, maybe government can do something about rudeness -- in
    its own employees.  How many times have you gone to a Federal or
    State building (pick your choice, DMV (motor vehicles, IRS, City
    hall, blah blah blah) and dealt with curt, rude employees?  As my
    boyfriend puts it, "They are rude because they CAN be." 
    
    Granted, many people who's tolerance limits have been hit by the
    fourth form, the second hour in line and the twelfth "Please use
    next window - this window closed" are rude, too....BUT, couldn't
    these government sponsored/run offices practice something called
    customer service?  Just because we HAVE to go there doesn't give
    that particular establishment the right to treat us like rats through
    a mill.  
    
    I have heard rumours that the Connecticut DMV had to send it's
    employees through a politeness course.  That's bad.  Real Bad.
    
    ---kim

    
    	Most of the replies to this note have to do with driving related 
    rudeness.  The warm weather brought out the other rude driver, the
    motorcycle with megaphones instead of mufflers.  I live in a very rural
    area, and always find it annoying when I can hear one of these machines
    roaring down a road over a mile away, filling the hillsides and lakes
    with echoing noise.  As spring turns to summer, this will happen not
    only on sunny days, but on warm nights too.  This disturbes people
    enjoying the quiet, or sleeping, and sets dogs to barking, and changes
    the behavior of critters living in the woods - for miles and miles of
    rudeness.
    

    
    
    Huh thats funny, when I hear a motorcycle in the distance it sounds
    to me of power and freedom and brings to mind a joy of having the
    ability to go where you want to go and not have a care in the world.
    It seems as if you've never rode a cycle, because If you had, you'd
    appreciate the silence of your mind when your on one.
    
    
                         -=-=-R~C-=-=-

re: .49

	A motorcycle in the distance isn't the problem. Its when the
	^%#^*# thing is loud enough to shake the windows in your house
	that the rudeness starts. It is especially nice when it happens
	around 2:00 AM on a summer night...

	Nothing wrong with bikes, but this obsession some folks seem
	to have with LOUD bikes is rude.

				Robert

    I have been thinking about adding a reply to this note.  Recently I
    moved from Boston to Clinton.  I commute to Andover accessing 495 from
    Rte 117.  I am continually amazed at the courteousness of the drivers
    on that road.  There is congestion but every second or third driver 
    will wave a person into the traffic.  I have a feeling that many of 
    these folks are DECCIE's traveling from Leominster to Stow and Maynard.
    
    I still miss Boston...but not the driving!

    
    re .51
    
    So what interesting chemicals have they put into the Mass.
    drinking water? I'm used to seeing a lot more of a different kind of 
    signal...
    
    
    re bikes
    
    I think old BMWs are neat; they are usually driven by old guys anyway.
    The overpowered bikes these kids ride are noisy nnuisances IMHO, and
    I shudder every time I see one with the forks bent sitting at the gas
    station.
                         y
    Of course, I won't sat anything derogatory since my boss rides a Magna

>    	Loud motorcycles are just plain inconsiderate - thats a fact, and
>    no "feeling" that the rider gets from it can alter that fact.


While I tend to agree that quiet motorcycles are more considerate to others,
(I ride Honda and Suzuki bikes myself. Both very quiet bikes), the above
statement is not entirely true. The people I know who have loud bikes do it
for their own safety. When there is an accident involving a car and a
motorcycle, the driver of the car will invariably say "I didn't see the
motorcycle." Having loud exhaust pipes add a measure of safety to the
motorcyclist because even if the auto driver doesn't see him, he just might
hear him.

I prefer to just be more careful (and quiet) myself, but a case can be made to
have a loud motorcycle.

Pete

I'd like to avoid, if I can, arguments about motorcycles, and try to get
back to a discussion of rudeness in general.

					Steve