Conference quark::human_relations-v1

    
    Virginia,
    
    	I am glad to see you are trying to get help for yourself.  I
    am really SURPRISED the hospital your son went into didn't involve
    you, Dick and the other members of your family to partake in some
    kind of family therapy sessions.  You and your son need a lot of
    professional help.  You, just to help deal with it, your son because
    he has a lot of anger built up and is acting on it instead of letting
    it be anger.
    
    	I'll say a prayer for both of you.
    
    
    jean

    Virginia,
    
    It seems like you have been through a great ordeal, and it seems that
    things can only get better than worse right. All of the members of your
    family should get involved in therapy with a professional to let out
    bad feelings. You need to let those feelings out of your system to
    feel peace of mind.  Try to work things out with your son, you know
    there is always hope, and yes with some professional help, or your EAP
    sessions you will be surprized how better you will feel.
    
    Best of Luck
    
    Lynne

    Jean & Lynne,
    
    Thanks for your support.  The hospital was no help!  When he was in one
    unit they'd let him have visits from his friends which I felt he needed
    to help his recovery along.  Then they moved him to a less secure unit
    and the staff wouldn't allow visits from his friends.  Only family!  I
    called his doctor several times to find out what was happening with him
    and only had my call returned twice.  The last time I spoke with his
    doctor I told her that he said he was going to snow the doctors and
    tell them exactly what they wanted to hear so they'd let him out
    sooner.  He's been in counseling since he was 3.  And that was because
    he used to let go of my hand and run.  Unfortunately after almost being
    hit by a car and having a few drivers yell at me and tell me to control
    my child, I decided I needed help for us.  I was a year out of a
    divorce and guess I hadn't accepted that, and my son did have a
    problem.  
    
    Anyway, he must have given the doctors what they wanted to hear.  He's
    out and when I saw my son I knew he was still a boy in trouble.  But as
    they told me, "You're not a professional, we are, and no one can keep
    up the act 24-hours a day indefinitely."  I told them in return that
    they don't know my son!  I tried, that's all I can say.
    
    He's getting help, I'm getting a little more help as of today.  I
    spent a total of 3-1/2 hours with the Fallon Clinic staff today.  I
    was really down and lost sight of any H-O-P-E!!  I have an appt. next
    week for a physical and to be put on an anti-depressant medication and
    I'll be seeing a counselor starting March 12th.  In the meantime I know
    I can call the Crisis Intervention Center at the Fallon and I can also
    call on the EAP counselor I've been seeing.  I have to take it a day at
    a time.  Today was a minute at a time.  
    
    Thanks again for your support!  I certainly hope none of you have to
    (or have been) through this type of situation.
    
    Virginia
    

    Virginia,
    
    
    All I can do is add my support....and prayers that it will all work
    itself out...
    
    Jill
    

Virginia -

I don't know what the folks at Fallon Clinic have told you about 
Anti-depresent drugs, but - 

BE VERY CAREFULL with them!!

Most of them have some nasty side affects, and Please - 

Keep in mind while useing them that it is VERY EASY to become dependent 
on them - and from there it is a short step to a full blown addiction.

I've watched to many people tred this path with both presciption and 
non-prescription drugs.

good luck.

Clark.

    Clark,
    
    I'll definitely be careful.  When my son took the number of my migrain
    headache medication that he did during his suicide attempt, while he
    was still in the coma at the hospital I came home and threw away just
    about every prescription we had in the house ... right down the toilet. 
    The only thing I kept was medication needed for gout (& that's not
    mine).  Everything else went.  Including several different types of
    aspirin we had.  I only kept a bottle of Tylenol because I still have
    the headaches.  Over the last month Tylenol has been maintaining the
    headache as a "normal" one and not going full-blown migrain.  When it
    gets to be a migrain I'll have to go to the doctor for medication to
    get me through that headache.  I'm uncomfortable having any more
    prescriptions in the house for anyone to get again.  I've lost trust.
    And I don't trust anyone anymore that may be in our home and have
    access to our medications.  My son didn't know that I had more
    prescriptions in the kitchen cabinet over the refrig.  Guess we can be
    glad of that.
    
    I'm a little gun-shy with medications right now.  The doctor will be
    seeing me Wednesday afternoon.  I've calmed down some since Friday when
    I was having a problem making it through the day.  Maybe they'll feel
    Wednesday that I don't need the anti-depressant medication but maybe
    need more sessions to talk it through.
    
    Thanks for the advise.  I don't want to get hooked on anything!  Except
    maybe for tons more of hugs and kisses ....  We all need more of that.
    
    Virginia
    

    Virginia

    As someone whose 15 year old daughter tried to commit suicide the last
    of January - this year, with pills also, and who has just now been
    released from the hospital, if you need an extra ear, call me.

    I would caution using the pills.  I just got back from a vacation from
    work and I did nothing much but sleep for 10 days, but the perspective
    did improve...  time does help...

    How is your daughter?  In your opinion, was she ready to be released
    from the hospital?  How are you and your family holding up?  I know
    what you mean about sleeping.  I'm okay until about 3:30 or so and then
    I'm ready to sleep.  If I could go to bed that early in the afternoon I
    would.  I also realize that for me, this is a form of escaping too. 
    During the night I'm not sleeping well at all.  That's one of the
    reasons the doctor is recommending the anti-depressant medication.  I
    sleep best between 8:30 - midnight.  From midnight on I'm awake most of
    the night.  I just can't go back to sleep.  I've tried making myself
    stay awake longer in the evening, but even if we go out I'm falling
    asleep or having a heck of a time keeping my eyes open.  It's easy to
    sleep at the movies, but when you're at a restaurant or lounge you
    can't.  I'll see what the doctor has to say Wednesday and I'll have to
    make a decision from there. 
    
    My boss just sent me mail asking if I'd done some work he asked for.  I
    haven't been to work much lately and when I am I'm not focusing on what
    needs to be done.  I'm feeling like I'd better hurry up and start
    feeling better emotionally and start doing my job like I used to before
    all this happened or I may have additional problems!
    
    My brother that took my son in stopped by to visit last night and to
    let us know how he's doing.  Physically he's doing better.  Emotionally
    he still has a long road to go down.  He's rebelling in some of his
    actions but my brother is holding up under his pressure.  What my
    brother told us last night though, which disturbs me, is that my son
    feels a need to "forgive me" but it's not within him yet to do so.  And
    also that because of all the counseling he's been in, he's learned to
    become an even better manipulator than he was before.  And he was good! 
    Too bad he doesn't use that skill positively because it could provide
    him with a wonderful future.  My son is continuing to manipulate me and
    push my buttons.  I'm aware of it and I'm trying to put limits on what
    I'll accept/not accept.  I tried that last Friday and that didn't seem
    to work.  I'm not good enough for my son to talk to me when he sees me
    (like last Thursday when he stopped into my facility to visit with
    people he worked with); yet, I was good enough for him to call late
    that evening when he "NEEDED SOMETHING FROM ME".  I tried to put a stop
    to that garbage and was told by people I'm close to that I made a
    mistake.  They felt I was closing the communication off and I shouldn't
    do that.  But where do you draw the line?  I'll be there when he wants
    to talk to/with me.  I'm trying to stop allowing him to use me when he
    wants to.  That's his way to open the door and pull more strings.  And
    when he's done it hurts so much more.  He's got the knife in there and
    he just keeps twisting it and shoving it in more.  When does the
    hurting stop?
    
    You must be going through similar feelings and thought processes
    yourself.  I'm sorry.  I didn't mean to go on.  Is your daughter back
    in school?  Is there someone home with her when she's home from school? 
    Does she work part time?  Is she enrolled in some kind of counseling
    now herself?  Was she in counseling prior to her attempt?  What these
    children don't realize is that if they'd just give their folks (and
    other people) a chance, we'd be there to listen and try to help as best
    as we could.  The problems they had prior to their unsuccessful
    attempts are only made worse when they get out of the hospital.  How do
    you start trusting them again?
    
    Don't know what I can do to help you, but please contact me if you want
    to talk or if you think maybe I can be of some help for you.  Sometimes
    talking about it allows you to find your own answers .... if there
    really are any.
    
    Virginia
    

    
    Virginia,
    
    
    It really disturbs me to read the last note.  The fact that your son
    is blaming his suicide attempts on you is really a crock.  You were
    not the one who did it.  You were not there to physically put the
    pills in his mouth.  This is garbage.  The ONLY person responsible
    for his actions is himself!!!
    
    Michele

    I have a son that tried to commit suicide several times when he was
    a teenager.  There are many reasons for this type of behavior, some of
    which might even be neurological.  
    
    Although a parent or any other person can not be held responsible for
    the actions of others, this problem and other similar problems do 
    require that all members of the family look at how they are
    interacting.  
    
    I to had difficulty with the health care workers getting help for my
    son.  They have so many cases that they make priority judgements based
    on the information they know and the prior experience they have.  It 
    doesn't always agree with what we know as parents or friends of the 
    person that is having problems.
    
    It concerns me that this medium allows opinions that might be indeed 
    harmful to people who turn to us for help.
    
    It is my feeling that 'the blame' or the 'need to forgive' by anyone
    for anything is individual.  If it helps them then it is not 'a crock'.
    The important thing is for the person that has been asked to accept the
    'blame' to realize that it is all part of the suicide action.
    
    Mental illness is serious and extremely frustrating when you deal with
    it on a daily basis.  But there are ways that we can interact with
    victims that may be positive.  And maybe if our own mental health does 
    not allow that then we back off and let someone else provide this support.
    
    It would be a great world if we were all perfect.  We are not perfect 
    parents, perfect spouses, perfect friends or perfect anything. 
    Sometimes our imperfections cause bad things to happen.  Sometimes we
    can correct what we have done.  Sometimes we can prevent our
    imperfections from having an affect on others.  And sometimes there is
    nothing we can do except to try to heal ourselves.  
    
    
     

    You're right, nothing in this world is perfect.  All we can do is
    strive for a level of perfection that's comfortable for us as an
    individual.  
    
    My son's wanting/needing to blame me for what he did, I understand is
    part of the suicide attempt.  He needs someone to blame.  His needing
    to forgive me as his Mom for something I've supposedly done ??? I don't
    buy into this.  As any parent that loves their children, I'd do just
    about anything for him.  I wish his hurt could be my hurt alone.  But
    it can't be.  The person he needs to forgive is himself.  He needs to
    start to believe in himself and know what his limitations are.  He has
    so many good qualities about himself and he doesn't use them to his
    best advantage.  He's nice looking, tall & lean, has a high school
    education, has a family here in Mass. and in Calif. that love him and
    want to help him, he's a good worker ... eager, aggressive, a
    perfectionist!  He has some dreams he's shared with me that are very
    good goals in life if he'd strive for them.  Talking with him (prior to
    his attempt) he seems to know what he wants in life and also realizes
    that he has to work towards those goals to achieve them.  Maybe I did
    too much for my children as they were growing up in a single-parent
    household and they now don't know how to make it on their own.  I don't
    know.  Being divorced at 23 with a 2-year old and a 3-year old left me
    some hangups.  One of which was that I wanted my children to have
    everything they'd have had if I remained married to their Dad.  I
    worked 2-3 jobs at a time to provide them with what their friends had,
    to give them as nice a place to live as possible so that they wouldn't
    be embarrassed to bring their friends home, etc.  I didn't do it all
    for them though.  When they wanted to buy a car they had to pay for it
    themselves.  They paid for their car insurance and all related
    expenses.  My daughter worked 2 part-time jobs from the time she was
    16.  A requirement I stipulated to her was that she MUST MAKE THE HONOR
    ROLL or she'd be forced to quit her jobs.  She knew I meant it and
    never put me to the test.  My son was living in Calif. so I didn't have
    that control over him.
    
    Bottom line is he's responsible for what he did.  My head knows that,
    my heart is having a problem accepting it.  I'll be there when my son
    truly wants to talk with me or needs my help.  I'm trying not to be
    there to allow him to use me.  Maybe you're right, maybe I need to back
    away and not communicate with him for a while.  Let other people help
    until we're both feeling stronger and can start to help each other.
    
    All I know (and most of you out there are right there with me on this)
    is that life isn't easy.  And nothing worth having comes easy either. 
    I hope that my son will pull himself together and stop feeling the need
    to blame and hurt others as he is now and that he'll fulfill those
    dreams of his because they're great dreams.
    
    

I was going to send this in personal mail to Virginia, but decided to place 
it in instead, after a formfeed for those that might also have to deal 
with this act of life. If you are interested, feel fee to hit return...
if not, "KP;" or "KP3" now...

>    How is your daughter?  

Becky is doing as well as can be expected under all the circumstances that 
she has had to endure in the last year. I don't know If I could have had 
the strength to go through what she did, and not have it effect me.


>			In your opinion, was she ready to be released
>    from the hospital?  


I don't even begin to second guess the medical profession.  I don't have 
the training that they do, nor do I deal with mental stability (or lack of 
it) on an everyday basis.  I had to trust that the doctor knew what he 
was doing when he decided to release her from the hospital.  Am I scared? 
Yes, I still am afraid that something, a baby's cry, anything - is going to 
push her back over the edge, but I can only trust that the doctor would 
not have let her out, if he didn't think she could not cope.

>				How are you and your family holding up?  


I'm surprised that everyone seems to be doing okay..  I had to get over the 
shouts of "I hate you" and "You're not my mother anymore", but I realize 
that that isn't her talking, but her emotions, and as she can come to grips 
with them, I doubt that she will say the same thing (I even got an "I love 
you" mom the other night!).  The sisters are coming through it okay, but 
with a little bit of anger, which we are working on now.

>					From midnight on I'm awake most of
>    the night.  

I would still stay away from the pills..  I know a couple of people who are 
on them, and can't get off them, no matter how hard they try. If you are 
awake then, use that time to get in tune with yourself. A self help book to 
read, a hot bubble bath, an exercise tape, a VCR movie, clean the closets,
whatever, just use the time effectively.  If you are tired at 3:30pm, go 
home and go to sleep.  Change your work schedule to be from 5am to 3pm for 
a while if need be. Let your body be in control for a while.
    
>    My boss just sent me mail asking if I'd done some work he asked for.  I

If you haven't already, I would sit down with your boss and explain ALL 
that is happening. My boss knew the night that my daughter was taken to the 
hospital, as I sent her mail. Bosses aren't mid-evil trolls waiting to 
lynch your neck, and really are quite understanding when they know your 
personal world is slowly falling apart at the seams. Try letting him/her 
know.  I think you'll see some support there also. Maybe even a little of 
the professional load taken off of you until the personal side is a little 
more stable.

    
>						Is your daughter back
>    in school?  

She is back in school on a limited basis.  She is only a freshman in high 
school, and has days where she just can't handle the kids barbs...  The 
counselor at school is on her mental health team, so she knows when to pull 
her out of class, and when to push her back in.

>		Is there someone home with her when she's home from school? 
>    Does she work part time?  

No to both of these. She is still too young to work part time. 

>				Is she enrolled in some kind of counseling
>    now herself?  

Yes, she is in weekly counseling, that might be twice-weekly at times, 
depending on the situation.

>			Was she in counseling prior to her attempt?  

Yes, but she looked at having to be "perfect" for her counselor, cuz she 
thought thats what she wanted of her. So she played the role of "all is 
perfect".

>							What these
>    children don't realize is that if they'd just give their folks (and
>    other people) a chance, we'd be there to listen and try to help as best
>    as we could.  

No, what **we** don't realize is that when kids do this, is it because it 
is the only control they feel they have over their life anymore. If they 
come to us for help, even that control is being taken away.  They need to 
be in control of something, so much so, that the only way they feel they 
have control is to kill themselves, its the final control. 


Time does indeed help.  Keep your chin up, and seek out a support group of 
friends/clergy/EAP/whatever...  The night I got the call, I cried alligator 
tears to a friend on the phone, while all he could do was just be an ear.
There is an ear out there for you also..  locate it and use it. 

    I always acknowledged to my children that life would have been better 
    for them if they had been in a two parent home.  I think that helped in 
    some respects and was one of the reasons that things have worked out
    for us.
    
    I made many mistakes raising my children and acknowledging them was 
    important not only to them but to myself.  I just can't imagine being a 
    parent and not making mistakes so allowing my children to forgive me 
    was not difficult for me.
    
    One of the high points in my relationship with Jon (the youngster who 
    tried to end his life) came at his wedding.  He chose the song
    "Through the Years" to dance with me.  He held me tight and told how 
    much he appreciated my support...and I told him how proud I was of him.
    
    What works for one relationship will not always work for others.  Jon
    is a manipulator still.  We have established an exchange that works
    for us.                                       

Um, perhaps some insight on how to handle his "forgiveness"...

Some methods of dealing with anger/blame/guilt suggest that you learn to put 
aside the anger/grievance and "forgive" the person.  I suppose it's not really
important that the target actually be *guilty* of what they're being forgiven 
for, just that the forgiver is dealing with the emotion and is trying to remove 
its control over their life.  That way they can move on to acknowledge and deal
with other (hopefully more realistic?) problems that form the barriers between 
them and what they really want....  [fwiw, perfectionism is often among them]

Yes, I realize this doesn't make it any easier for you right now, but it may 
help you see one possible reason why he might be saying it.  It does NOT mean 
that you are really to blame - or that it appears that way to anyone *but* your 
son.  But it's HIS perceptions that led to his problems, and that HE has to deal
with.  (And arguing with him, especially if he perceives you to be this "cause
of all his troubles", is only likely to reinforce his opinions! :-)  YOU need to
deal with YOUR problems - and it seems as if you're trying to do that (and just
the process of asking for help when you need it is often the hardest part...  
Congrats to you for doing it!)

Good luck to you - it's very difficult dealing with emotional problems in 
someone you love, and even harder when it's your child.  
		Helen

    
    This may sound like a weird question, but has your son been tested for
    food alergies?  What makes me ask this is that you mentioned that your
    son had problems ever since, or maybe even before, he was three.  My
    brother sounds very similar to your son.  He has been a real challenge
    for my parents to deal with from day 1.  In his early teens, he was
    tested for food allergies and he was allregic to all kinds of things
    including sugar.  His allergic reations were emotional.  After that, we
    started watching what he ate.  It was amazing!  We'd always remembered
    that his rage had ruined just about every holiday.  We realized that
    lots of sweets accomplanied holidays.  He got some medication and that
    seemed to help.  
    
    However, it didn't solve all of his problems.  (He stopped watching
    what he ate.)   He still kept flunking
    every grade and going to summer school, (at my parents expense), to
    stay with his class.  He still would get very angry with my parents and
    threaten violence.  He still beat up his girlfriend.  And he still
    would fly into a rage at me.  He never actually attempted suicide, but
    he called my mom several times saying that if she didn't hop on a plane
    and come see him he'd kill himself.    (His girlfriend made him study
    senior year so he got into college. He's flunking out now.)  
    So, he's still a messed up kid.  However, I'm not affected anymore. 
    This may sound mean, but the last time he had a fit at me I cried alot. 
    Then I stopped and told him that was the last time I would ever cry for
    him.  I told him that I just didn't care anymore.  He has not blown up
    at me since and it's been 3 years.  He has called me when he knew he
    couldn't talk to mom about something.  My point here is that when I
    told him I'd had enough and I just didn't care, he started to care.
    Talk to a counselor about this, I mean, I don't know your situation.
    But I meant it.  I don't have much emotion toward him anymore, except
    sympathy, but we get along MUCH better.  And I am much happier.  He
    can't manipulate me anymore.
    
    Call me if I can be of any help.  DTN- 276-8543, Rachael
    
    

    Hi Rachel,
    
    No, I don't think he's ever been tested for food allergies.  I'll
    mention it to him and suggest that he ask his doctor to request the
    test.  It'd be great if it was something as simple as a food allergy.  
    
    My son visited me very unexpectedly Sunday (3/04).  He felt he was
    ready to start addressing some of his issues.  I pushed back to him
    what I didn't feel was my problem, responsibility, and/or guilt.  Such
    as:  "When I need you to be a Mom, you're not"  meaning, I still won't
    let him move back into our home.  My response was something like, "I'm
    your Mom in every way I can be.  I'm not becoming your landlord again! 
    The only thing changing is your sleeping arrangements."
    
    Another big thing he's upset with me about is that I told his Parole
    Agent that he hung around with one of his uncles and that this
    particular uncle smokes crack/coke in his basement and smokes pot right
    in front of his two daughters (5 & 8).  My son feels it's my fault if
    the Parole Agent (who is also a State Cop) should stop by his uncles
    house supposedly to see my son ... and if they should see anything
    illegal going on or see coke/crack/pot in the open then they could be
    arrested and the girls could be removed from the home and placed in the
    State's custody.  I pushed back real hard on my son about that.  It's
    not my responsibility.  What goes on behind their doors is not under my
    control.  Nor is my brother, who is 32 years old, as is his girlfriend. 
    My son disagrees with me to the point that he can't talk to me.  He
    wants to get up and leave.  He feels if I never said anything to his
    Parole Agent (this was all while he was still in a coma and we didn't
    know if he'd survive or not!) that they wouldn't have any reason to
    stop by there.  This isn't true.  When someone is on Parole their agent
    can stop by where they live, where they work, where they socialize,
    they basically can show up anywhere, unannounced.  My son knew that.
    
    And he's ticked at me because I told his Parole Agent (again, while he
    was in the coma) that he had been drinking all along.  I tried to tell
    him that I was dealing with "H-O-N-E-S-T-Y" and I was hoping that they
    could help him when and "I-F" he came out of the coma.  I wasn't trying
    to hurt him.  I also told him that he knew his Parole Agent could
    demand a urine and/or blood test at any given time to test for drugs or
    alcohol and that "HE" was the one pushing to the limits, not me.  Had
    they tested him before his attempt, they might have been able to help
    him and he may not have made an attempt.  No one knows the answer to
    that though.  But bottom-line?  I'm not accepting the blame for how
    difficult things are for him now and I've told him that.  He created
    all this trouble for himself, not me.
    
    Because he's my son I am emotional about him.  They cut the cord when
    he was born, but they can never cut the connection a parent has for
    their child.  I'll continue to talk with him and try to get things back
    to a comfortable situation for all of us, but I won't do it alone and
    he's aware of that.  I told him that all my wanting in the world for
    him is no good.  He has to want it too and he has to work hard to get
    what he wants.  People (myself included) will be there to help him when
    we see he wants the help.  We can't force ourselves onto him.
    
    Virginia
    

    
    As a person who knows quit alot of loneliness, I have
    asked myself some questions at the time I was thinking
    of suicide.
    
    1. Why do I have the feeling nobody cares about me ?
    
       O.K., but the persons who should care, should know,
       do they know what gives me the feeling they have
       accepted me and they do love me.
    
    2. A girl who I love very much, I have the feeling
       she doesn't accept me, that she doesn't even want
       to have me close to her.
    
     	But does she really know how I feel about her ?
    	Does she understand what I expect from her ?
    
    	Well I have to admit that she might not know
    	what I'm thinking, feeling, expecting simply
    	because she has an other way of picking up 
    	what I'm trying to show.
    
    	If I have to be sure she knows, I have to tell
    	her right in her face and the only reason I am
    	waiting to do that is that can be ambarresing
    	for me, because I have to show myself.
    
    Best start is really talk, why is somebody feeling
    not loved, I can think of lots of things so small
    you wouldn't even dare thinking that's a problem.
    
    I can show to somebody my love, but it might not be
    seen and lots of times I don't think of that, because
    I asume the other person thinks like me!
    
    					Wim