Conference quark::human_relations-v1

    Have you spoken with the children's pediatrician yourself?  All too
    often messages delivered by a middle-man tend to become less
    meaningful.  That would be my first consideration, to be certain 
    that the message is clear for both parents. 
    
    Good luck.  Please let us know how it's going.
    

    in the interests of fairness, I should say that I read an article
    (or a news account of one) recently that stated, in effect, that
    joint custody was generally detrimental to the kids.  It said that
    kids do need a sense of stability and roots, and the constant
    one-night-with-him-and-one-night-with-her was disruptive to them.
    
    Having said that, I think that you could really lose out unfairly
    on this one, unless you're careful.  I agree completely with
    the previous note...speak to the doctor yourself (in person).
    Also, you may want to get your own doctor's opinion of it,
    just in case it ends up in court.
    
    I'm also very suspicious, quite frankly, of the actions of your Ex.
    If she really wants only to provide a sense of stability to the
    kids (ie, fewer visits with you), then there are easier ways of
    doing that besides moving away.
    
    I have a friend who's Ex said that she was moving away, but that
    it would only be temporary.  Well, it wasn't...so he now has
    to spend every other weekend on the Maine Turnpike driving
    6 hours or so up to northern Maine just to see his kids in a
    dingy motel.  Once she moves somewhere, you're rights (and her
    willingness to accomodate them) are greatly diminished.
    Be careful!  I recommend getting a legal committment on where
    she's going now, and if you don't like it, fight it.
    

    I am most usually a Read/Only Noter, but your heartache has made
    it necessary for me to try and add my opinion in this Note.
    
    I have been following your turmoil in Note 960.0 and upon seeing
    this Note added to your worry, felt compelled to answer you from
    my own past experience.
    
    With all the problems your Ex has been causing you, I would tend
    to agree with the last reply.  You should check with the childrens'
    pediatrician, before just sitting back and let her walk away with
    them.....  For whatever she may state are her reasons....  This
    seems to me to be just another way for her to get back at you in
    whatever way she can........  How better to hurt you and "make you
    pay" than to deprive you of the company of your children, whom you
    so obviously love dearly.  
    
    This sounds to me to be a way for her to hurt you that not even
    the physical abuse could do.  Check with the pediatrician, to see
    if in fact the words he/she said were in fact, delivered to you
    by your Ex in the same way they were said by the doctor.  If that
    is not the case, and she twisted things to her advantage and your
    pain, perhaps you need to consult with your lawyer again.  
    
    George, don't let her take away the most important thing you ahve
    in your life right now.....  Years ago, I let my Ex deprive me of
    my children, although it was in an indirect manner compared to how
    yours is handling your situation.  The pain and heartache you will
    know through the years if you don't check out the situation thoroughly
    before deciding what to do......That pain will never leave you....It
    will get less severe,.....but never leave you.....
    
    If you'd like to write outside of this conference, please feel free.
     
    Perhaps I can answer some questions for you from my own experience
    that others might not be able to you.
    
    B

    George
    
    Joint custody can and does work. I have had joint physical custody
    (2 weeks with me/2 weeks with her mom) for 4.5 years. My daughter
    is happy, well adjusted, doing great in school and has the normal
    problems most kids go through. But, it take both parent's willingness
    and understanding to make it work. Joint custody has it's own set
    of problems and logistic that need to be addressed and if both
    parents are willing to make it work, it can. 
    
    Be careful of studies ( This is in reference to the note that 
    indicated that joint custody make cause problems in children).
    They are not always true and usually reflect one person or
    a certain group's opinion.  I have also read a study that shows 
    children that have ready access to both parents, are most likely 
    to survive a divorce in the best shape. 
    
    I would encourage you to get your wife to sit and talk, with a third
    party if necessary, to discuss what you as parents, want and think
    it best for your children. Not what someone else thinks is best. 
    If she is unwilling to do this, then I would look at other appropriate 
    action (ie legal).
    
    Your children need you as a father.
    
    Mark
                                                    

    George - 
    
    I would not only speak to the pediatrician yourself but also make an
    appointment with a child psychiatrist.  In some cases this sort of a
    joint custody arrangement can work very well - especially in cases
    where the children are older and have more of an understanding of
    what's going on or in cases where both parents live in the same town or
    area.  
    
    My experience with this was when my daughter was 3.  Since I live in
    Colorado Springs and my ex lived in San Diego we had an agreement that
    he would have her for the summers and for two weeks at Christmas.  When
    she came back after the first summer she was a completely changed
    child.  (This may have also been due to other factors which I've
    discussed with you in mail.)  Neverthless, when I talked to a child
    psychiatrist about this he told me that it's not usually a good idea to
    have this kind of a visitation arrangement with children this young. 
    At that age they have no concept of time.  "Soon" means nothing to
    them.  When they are away from the primary caregiver it is as if that
    person has died to them.  And then they go through the whole process
    with the secondary caregiver when they go back to the primary
    residence.  You can see how confusing and painful this could be for a
    child.  In my opinion, Emily was a fairly mature three year old and had
    a lot of difficulty with this.  Of course, it was also for a lot longer
    time period than you're talking about.
    
    Your milage may vary...
    
    Nanci

    Geroge,
        I am divorced now for 9 years and have one girl and two boys.
    I let them live with there mother and had visitation everyother
    weekend.  This worked out good and if I needed to see them for 
    special things it was okay. I would ask a child consular.  I have 
    had to move out here away from my children now for two years.  I 
    miss them so very much I could cry.  DO NOT LOSE CONTACT!  They need 
    you and your advice more than you know.  IF you do not stay in contact
    you will miss so very much of their lives.  It seems that you have a 
    very strong effect on your boys and your ex wife does not like it. My 
    kids call me every week and I call them. Joint custody is a must. This
    way any important decisions have to be approved by both.  
       I also can be contacted off line if you need some extra advice.
    
    Denny..
    

George,

Some studies do suggest that children can suffer from a insecurity when
in a state of transition and your boys are rather young.  from my own
experience, I would say that children do prosper and grow in a sound,
stable environment when they are not shuffled back and forth among
various caretakers.  My own boys have flourished since they are with me
most of the time, but they do go to their Dads every other weekend and
every school vacation and a large chunk of the summer. 

However, I don't know about the psychologically sound environment concept
that the pediatrician has recommended as being brought about by your
exs full custody.   as stated in your other note, your ex seems to have
some responsibility issues and self-centerness to boot.  There is more
to creating a sound and stable psychological environment than just being
with one parent most of the time.  There is positive influence that you
can have over your children that your ex may not be able to provide.

I don't think this is a black and white issue and I don't think the
childrens psychological "grounding" depends purely on whether they are
with her or divide their time between the two of you.  What other influences
are at work here?

Before deciding anything, I would suggest family counseling and checking
out many resources.  The benefits of the joint custody arrangement may outweigh
the negative impact.  Still, its an avenue that needs to be EXPLORED and
considered at length before doing anything.  I would also check into seeing
your lawyer and having any decision on her part blocked until you can decide
for yourself what is best for your children.  I have run the gauntlet of 
trying to decide, custodially, what is right for my children and did not
come to my decision to have full custody of them without a lot of careful
thought and talking to a lot of knowledgeable people and going about 
creating the environment best suited for them as well as preparing myself
for the task ahead of me.  Take your time and think about it carefully.
Also consider leaving an option open, legally, to go back to joint custody
when the boys are older and more capable of giving their input on this
decision.   All the best to you.

    I take it your wife has decided to give up the house?  It seems
    to me this is another ploy to hurt you motivated by bitterness.
    In my opinion, a pediatrician would not offer such advice.  She
    is probably making it up.  If she asked him his opinion on the subject,
    any realistic doc would refer her to the appropriate source such
    as a child psychologist for advice.  Uprooting those kids, new school,
    daycare, surroundings, etc. would be more harm than seeing their
    Dad half time.  Your wife is full of it.  It is probably HER who
    wants to get away!  She is running, but she will still have HERSELF
    to deal with when she gets there.  With everything that you have
    written, her attitude, tantrums, etc., she is the one who needs
    the psychologist, not the children.
    
    I hope you are documenting all of this stuff.  It may help you in
    the future if you end up back in court.
                                          

    Do not take this advice too seriously, especially third hand.  Research
    does not support this opinion.  It does support the conclusion that in
    almost all cases ongoing contact with both parents is best for the
    children.  Just what form and quantity is optimal is unknown.  Roughly
    equal responsibility (which is very different from the legal concept of
    joint custody) is quite uncommon, and hasn't been studied in any
    detail.  The _opinions_ I got from three specialists I consulted in
    this area were that equal responsibility / dual households might well
    be best if the parents could cooperate enough to make it work, and keep
    the kids' needs first.  The consensus was also that for an arrangement
    including a 3.5 year old, switching houses twice a week was a best fit
    for the child's time horizon.  So my sons (now approaching 4 and 8) now
    have two houses, both equally "home," which they switch twice weekly. 
    It is quite stable and predictable, and we do not suffer "transition
    trauma."  I think both parents and both kids would still agree at this
    point that we could not have had a better arrangement, and we expect to
    try to keep it working (with modifications) indefinitely.
    
    Of course, less symmetrical arrangements can be fine too, and may be
    dictated by practical considerations.  An excellent book on making the
    best of joint custody arrangements of various kinds is "Mom's House,
    Dad's House."  I can't remember the author's name, offhand, but it is
    available in paperback.  Get it.  Another important book, though less
    directly relevant to your question, is Judith Wallerstein's "Second
    Chances."  It reports on the _only_ long term research project on the
    affects of separation and divorce.  It does not consider symmetrical joint
    custody, since this pattern wasn't found in the population studied.
    
    			- Bruce

    re:.0
     It was not fair of the doctor to give that advice without ever having
     to speak with you! Kind of like prescribing nitro glycerin for
     heart problems over the phone. Talk to a doctor. Maybe EAP can
     help. Talk to Corporate. Maybe comeone from the Work/Family relations
     group can help you.
    
    Kate

    Well this is my second attempt to enter tins note so it may have lost
    some of its original ferver. Any way here goes.
    
    I am myself in the middle of a messy divorce and I am not willing to
    give up my kids!  After one long year I have convinced my soon to be 
    exwife that the children still need two parents.  I believe that joint
    custody is necessary for children to servive with the best possible
    chance of attaining a well adjusted adult life.
    
    An organization that has been very helpful to me is F.A.I.R. and their
    address is as follows:
    
    	F.A.I.R
    	The National Father's Organization
    	1 N.E. 10th Street
    	Milford, Delaware 19963
    
    	phone no. 800-722-F-A-I-R
    
    They publish a newspaper about 6 times a year and I have found it to be 
    very enlightning.  They have a suggested reading list which includes, 
    and I highely recomend, "How to Win Custody" by Kiefer.  They have an
    Attourney referal service, and several other publications available on
    the subject of custody and divorce.  They charge $50.00 a year for
    membership and for me has been the best $50.00 I've spent since this
    whole ordeal started.
    
    Don't give up! You have to convince your ex that keeping the children
    from you is not in her or the childrens best interest.  The children
    need both a father and a mother.  Everything that I have read receintly
    has indicated that it is best for everyone , especially the kids, if
    divorcing parents can put aside their differences and come to come kind
    of workable joint custody arrangement.  This was also supported by an
    article published in the New York Times magazine, about a year ago.
    If your wife succeeds in keeping you children from you, she needs to
    understand that they will grow up someday and may realize the part she
    played in keeping them from their father, and she pay dearly for it.
    
    What ever you do, DON'T GIVE UP! Go to the library and read everything
    you can find on the subject.  I even read the books that were written
    for women so that I whould know what they were being advised.  Know
    your enemy.
    
    Good luck, my heart goes out to you.