Conference quark::human_relations-v1

    OK, so I'm odd, but when I examine my feelings, I generally see as
    convoluted a murk as could be imagined.  Express myself honestly? 
    Which part of myself?  All I can do is select one of the strands and
    try to make it into a comprehensible piece of verbiage.
    
    In being selective, I'm being dishonest.  Even in molding the selected
    thought so that it can be understood, I'm changing the thought and
    being less honest.  If I tried to drag in all the surrounding thoughts,
    I would be thought at best incoherent and at worst the vilest
    hypocrite.
    
    No matter how much energy you put into excavating your honest feelings,
    there will always be another unexpressed and misunderstood layer.  And
    after a while, you become exhausted and just lay down the shovel.  Is
    that exhaustion the same as "losing something"?  Only if there's an
    alternative.
    
    Language is linear.  The human soul isn't.  Games must be played to
    integrate the two.  The horribly painful scenes in .0 occur because
    each person's rules for the game are ad hoc and so often conflict with
    the rules of others.
    
    Luckily, one often finds oneself in situations where excavation isn't
    necessary because one's own game fits smoothly with another's.  That's
    wonderful and it's as near to relaxed honesty as we can probably get,
    but it seems no less a game.
    
    Don't mind me, it's just post-Valentine's depression,
    Ray

    Game playing is a part of life.  I personally don't feel it is bad.
    But let me acknowledge that there is such a thing as Head Games which
    I consider very bad.
    
    I feel it is very necessary in most intimate relationships.  The
    possibility of finding someone that is 100% compatible is remote.  
    
    In the first few contacts there is a dancing of sorts...expressing
    ideas and philosophies and a general getting to know you.  It seems
    unrealistic that all of this information could be processed correctly
    by any individual.  Each person at this point in time has their own
    agenda, and their own baggage.  
    
    Then you add noting to the whole process and you have another strategy.
    When I started exchanging mail between noters and going to various 
    parties I began to notice notes and replies entered that had a lot to
    do with what was going on behind the scenes.  I have entered notes in
    conferences with the direct intent of expressing an opinion and hoping
    that people would reply and reinforce the point I was trying to get 
    across to one specific individual.  The note that most comes to mind
    is the Candy Store note in this conference.
    
    I have forwarded notes to other noters to illustrate something we had
    been discussing in mail or in person.  Maybe this is a form of the 
    age old gossip.  Not malicious in intent just conversational.  
    
    In a discussion I had with an acquaintence awhile back I said..."You
    cannot be totally open with many people.  Interactions require tact
    and the ability to understand if the person really wants to hear what
    you have to say"
    
    'Twould be nice if it were different...but it doesn't make much sense
    to me to think about that because it isn't going to be that different
    today or tomorrow...the only thing I can really change is the way I
    handle these games or interactions with people.  So I muddle along 
    playing the Master Game (great note in DEJAVU on the subject) hoping 
    all my moves are good ones!
    
    

There used to be a time and place, when all this was not true.
People clearly expressed what was on their minds. Because that was
the thing to do, no one read into other's expressions more than what
was said. Life was good and serene and satisfying. 

But this is here and now. People play head games. 

There is an old Jewish joke. If you've heard it or do not
appreciate Jewish jokes, jump ahead a paragraph. These guys are
going out of town on a train and to start a conversation, one asks
the other where he is going. "To Warsaw", he answers. The first
person gets really pissed off. "You're telling me you're going to
Warsaw so I'll think you are actually going to Boiberick. But, in
effect, I can easily tell that you really **are** going to Warsaw.
How dare you lie to me?". 

The upshot of it is, if you live in a culture that **demands**
playing head games, you cannot circumvent it. You **must** join in
the fun and play, just like everybody else. Otherwise, you'll be
branded and outcast. I am not saying this, by itself, is necessarily 
bad. It's just there.

So, why do people play the game? Because, in this time and place, in
this 'me' generation, people are vulnerable and afraid and alone.
So, they protect themselves. 

People abhor rejection. You couldn't tell the man, "I want to see
you again", before **first** knowing he will react positively. To do
so would mean laying yourself bare to rejection. 

"What is so darn hard about being gut level honest and the other person
accepting that honestly for just that - honestly?". It's so hard 
because half the time, you'd be hurt. If you are not real brave, the
other half of the time does not make up for it.

"Why does a person say, I need space, when they really want you to come
after them, and convince them that they don't?". Because the other 
person is afraid to give an inch, lest they would be forced to lose 
a yard.

And the 64 kilobucks question: "When does it all end? Do you have to
just become a hermit to escape it all? Why is it so hard to just be
honest and not play games?". 

For you, personally, it will end when you find a person (or two or
three or a group) that feels like you do and have got to the point
in their relationship where they have discussed this and agreed to
always be honest and open. For the culture - I don't think it will
ever end. The trend seems to be going the other way. And, if I tell
you WHY (IM very HO) we have come this far, I'll probably get
clobbered in this here notefile, where, by reading carefully, you
will find some people that are so far advanced, they play head games
on themselves :-). 

-- Ron 

    When someone is completely at peace with themselves (have a normal
    self-esteen) then they don't need to play games.  I have learned
    (the hard way) in the past few months that the real people play
    games with your emotions is so that they are in control of the 
    situation.  They don't want to be the ones that get hurt.  My
    feelings (now) are basically this: when I see someone playing games
    with me I either expose it right away, or no longer pursue the
    friendship/relationship.

    
    I think we all play games. As one or two notes have already said, some
    games are more hurtful than others. However...
    
    I think...
    
    The problem results not from the game...or that there is a game...but
    that one of the players doesn't know the rules. 
    
    We could get really involved here in a semantic [game] exercise about
    the term "games", but I think most social-psychological research shows
    that humans tend to (1) structure their communciation patterns [games and
    (2) define their trusted associates by who knows which [games]
    patterns.
    
    We all do it. Even those of us who are always open and honest have
    patterns to how we communicate love, hurt, fun...etc...those are games
    as far as communication goes.
    
    The catch comes when we fool around with #2...when we play games with
    folks who don't know the pattern we are using. Some of us even "get
    off" by luring people into such interactions...it gives us a sense of
    power. That is nasty in my book.
    
    But, I think .0 was speaking about open-ness and honesty more than
    games...or used games as an accidental rather than primary reference.
    [I may be way off there...but that was how I read it]
    
    Anyway...on the perceived topic from .0...I think people learn by
    experience. And I think that most people are basically insecure in
    their self-perception of themselves as desireable, worthwhile people.
    
    If a person's experiences have taught them that being honest
    and open results in getting hurt or being made to feel the fool...then
    that person person will most likely interpret that lesson as "I
    shouldn't show my hand so soon"...rather than "That person was a jerk
    who reacted to my honesty in that way."
    
    People are relatively smart...once they learn that the burner on the
    stove burns when you lay your hand over it...they don't lean on the
    burner anymore...even when it is not hot. Likewise with honesty. If I
    learn early-on that people chop me where it hurts if I am honest, then
    I cease being honest.
    
    Simplistic? Yes...probably much too so. But I think it is a stab at why
    many folks are so circumspect about how they share their feelings with
    other folks.
    
    Melinda

>    After hanging up, a lot was still on my mind that I didn't say to the
>    person, and I wondered why, when we were talking so openly and
>    honestly, was I even holding back some feelings that I _really_ wanted
>    to express and didn't?

 What if you said something that offended them and ruined the mood of an
otherwise pleasant conversation? What if you asked a question that made them
uncomfortable? What if they answered you and said something you didn't want to
hear? What if you exposed a serious difference between you? All these and
other questions wear away at you so you decide not to risk it, not to become
more honest. What if you have feelings that are politically incorrect?!!!!

>    What is so darn hard about being gut level honest and the other person
>    accepting that honestly for just that - honestly?

 People aren't used to seeing honesty. Honesty can be brutal. Honesty can be
tough to take. Honesty can hurt.

 People are afraid to trust others. That's really the big reason. People just
don't want to become vulnerable to emotional pain.

>Why is it so hard to just be honest and not play games?

 Fear.

 The Doctah

RE.: .4

>    So what year should Sherman set the Way-Back Machine for?

Actually, I was thinking of earlier in this century, like the
forties and fifties. In terms of culture, I was thinking of my
childhood in Israel, where a spade was called a spade and being
straight and to the point was a virtue and beating about the bush
(no reference to George) was viewed with contempt. 

Of course, double facedness existed always. And in some cultures, I 
imagine, it was the norm. The base note, however, asked "why" and I 
attempted a limited answer.

As to your examples - I differentiate between straight out
dishonesty and playing head games. I understood the base note to
solely deal with the latter. 

As to "Honest Joe" Machiavelli - what did you expect from a
politician? 

-- Ron

	 Gale.


	 The problem is that people see and believe what they choose
	 to.  All each of us can do is project what we feel we want to
	 or what is "us" and hope that the recipient can digest it the
	 way it was sent out.

	 Holding hands in a bar:  You may be desiring to express an
	 "hey, I think you're attractive" and the recepient may be
	 desiring an "I really could use a good lay tonight."
	 Perception is such a key factor in our lives.   When the
	 person sleeps with another without the commitment and the
	 other person believes there is a commitment, we fall into the
	 trap of perception again.

	 Who is at fault?  Me for allowing the person leeway to
	 believe what they want?  The person for misperceiving my
	 intentions?  I believe it's a two way street.

	 I was in a devastating scenario a couple years ago, where I
	 was dreadfully in love with this man and him with me.  We
	 were both intelligent engineers with a bright future.  He
	 graduated a sememster before me and moved to work for HP in
	 ColoSpgs. I visited him many times over the next few months
	 and fell in love with ColoSpgs.  So, when interviews rolled
	 around, I concentrated a lot of my efforts in Colorado.
	 Upon having to make the selection of who to work for, I had
	 my choice of numerous companies in California, Texas,
	 Arizona and Digital in Colorado.  I chose Digital because
	 they were the absolute best in all categories: job, benefits,
	 pay, work atmosphere, etc. This man could NOT accept that I
	 was making the right decision for my career by moving to
	 Digital.  Because, he saw my love for him and my desire to be
	 with him.  He wanted me to make my choice for my CAREER, not
	 for him.  What he could not see was that my choice WAS for my
	 career AS WELL as the side benefit that he was in the same
	 state.

	 I was devastated when he broke up with me, because he could
	 not see that I WAS making a good career choice, he was seeing
	 what he wanted to see.  Was I at fault?  Yes, probably, for
	 continuing to express my love for him and not impressing on
	 him that I was making a good career decision.  Was he at fault?
	 Yes, for refusing to see what a good career choice I was
	 making.


	 It takes two to play most games.  Especially when they
	 involve unspoken perception.  Each and every one of us wants
	 things to be the way we see them, and it's difficult
	 sometimes to see them any other way.  It's difficult
	 sometimes to believe that a person could be thinking any
	 other way than we want them to.  Especially if we don't talk.
	 Talk is so important and dispelling this perceptions.

	 We can't expect people to read our minds.....and we can't
	 expect people to not react in any way they see fit to, if we
	 don't give them enough information to make the correct
	 perception.

	 I confess, I'm guilty on both counts, many times over.
	 Malicious games are awful, but the games we play unknowingly
	 can be just as deadly, if not more.


	 kathy

    Well.. I'm heading out on vacation... the base note will be on my
    mind.. _a_ _lot_ ...
    
    As to what I was getting at...  Honesty was the key, but game playing
    seemed to interact with it, or to not allow it...
    
    I'll expand more after I get back from Canada...
    
    Gale

.0>    What is so darn hard about being gut level honest and the other person
.0>    accepting that honestly for just that - honestly?
    
    Sometimes, what one person needs to say in order to "be honest" is
    something the other person does not want to hear. The second person
    considers the first to be saying something needlessly hurtful or
    annoying. 
    
    And maybe the first person is being selfish by satisfying their need
    for honesty at the expense of the second.
    
    	Andrew, a former first person.

>>There used to be a time and place, when all this was not true.
>>People clearly expressed what was on their minds. Because that was
>>the thing to do, no one read into other's expressions more than what
>>was said. Life was good and serene and satisfying. 

WHEN?....geez, Ron, I'm pretty old, and I don't remember this time.

Maybe Adam and EVE, maybe?!...;^)

I wish I COULD learn to play these games.. I could avoid a lot of rejection...

I have NEVER been able to "Play it cool"... unfotunately if I like someone they
always know... and even when I think "I'll play it cool" after a day or two I
think "What the hell your cutting your own nose of to spite your face" then I
give in and make "the first move"...


Too damn impatient to play games I guess... but sometime I think if I knew the
rules I might have a better chance of winning...

One day I'll learn...




Xtine

re. 14

   Why, would anyone wish that they *could* play games??  I don't play games,
not the games that are deceitful and can hurt games.  I would never ever 
want to ...  I think it sets a relationship back hundreds of years!  Lets 
look at it.. To play the "playing it cool game"  you have to *hide* your
emotions, not be honest - as in if you really want to be with that person
say NO.  Why would anyone want to do this?  I have tried it in high-school,
when you try anything and everything.  But that lil voice inside me knew it
wasn't right.  So, please stay honest and most of all R E A L no matter 
what happens - You can never loose - you  might get regected - but you can
never loose.

   Mikki

    Re .16, you really think you can never lose by being honest?
    Well, I'm sorry to be the one to break it to you, but sometimes
    you can lose really big, even when you're honest.  (especially if
    what you would consider to be winning, depends on another person)
    
    I think everybody plays games all the time.  I don't think it ever
    ends until death (and then, who knows, maybe there's an afterlife
    that involves playing games!)  
    
    I, also, think everybody has a secret agenda (when it comes to
    relationships, dating, sex, love, etc.).  There is what people say
    they want and feel, and what people really want and feel, which
    they may never tell you.  
    
    Lorna
    

    Re .18, I don't think that getting what you want from someone else
    always involves manipulation.  If what you really want from another
    particular person, for example, is that they would love you and
    want to share their life with you, and you tell them that, and they
    say that that is impossible for some reason, then in this instance
    you would lose.  You could still like yourself, and be happy with
    yourself, but in this particular instance you would have lost.
    
    Lorna
    

re: .18

>   It's harder too win by being honest.  Please define win, if it's
>   living with yourself and likeing you then thats win.  If it's
>   getting what you want from someone else thats manipulation and
>   has little to do with honesty.  
    
>   Saying what you feel truthfully can be injurious to others as can
>   hiding it.  It's about feelings, not facts or universal truths and
>   feelings change.  Above all else, sometimes what is said is less 
>   important than how it was said.


 Talk about [head]Games.....! 

steve

>    I, also, think everybody has a secret agenda (when it comes to
>    relationships, dating, sex, love, etc.).  There is what people say
>    they want and feel, and what people really want and feel, which
>    they may never tell you.  

 Probably true. Oftentimes people are not sure of their feelings, or their 
feelings are in a state of flux. So they can't really tell you what they
feel, because their feelings are dynamic, while language is static.

>    I think everybody plays games all the time. 

 On several levels.

 The Doctah

	My two cents on games we play and honesty was adressed in a recent
exchange of mail I had.  I was given a speach to the effect that it's best
to be an upfront, boldly honest person to the point of "even if it hurts
it's good for you".  I disagreed and replied with this.  I feel it addresses
some of  the stances in this note.

***************************************************************************

    
I have a bit of internal conflict with 'It's ultimately good to always speak 
the truth and be upfront" as compared with what seems to be 'skirting an issue'
I feel the point is to communicate honestly as apposed to building a 'soapbox'
to preach from.  The soapbox mentality is too black and white and I have in the
past been a soapbox person.  The problem is I find as I grow I am continually
building 'soapboxes' so to step from one to another in firm/honest resolution
that this is the black and white, 'no-doubt about it' truth.  This progressive
changing of soapboxes made me realize that the truth is not black and white but
multiple shades of grey.  This realization made me more able to be an actual
participating member of the human race, flexiable to changing truth, and gives
me an unlimited potential for growth.  This growth is bringing me ever closer
to the ultimate truth of god and reality.  I feel more part of all that happens
around me.  If you think I'm nuts that's fine.  That's just how I operate.


					George

    I didn't know so many *totally* honest people existed as seem to
    have replied to this note. Don't you folks ever change your mind?
    Aren't you ever confused about how you feel about someone? Is it
    worth hurting someone over something that may not be important to
    you just to be honest?

    An aside to Ron, the 40's and the 50's were the decades of the big
    lie for women. They were told their only worth was in the home and
    to get out of the working world. They were told to live by the
    double standard that said women has to be virgins when they married
    but men were free to try and seduce them. I don't see them as the
    years of honesty. liesl

RE.: .23

>    An aside to Ron, the 40's and the 50's were the decades of the big
>    lie for women. They were told their only worth was in the home and
>    to get out of the working world.

I said, "another time AND place". The place was NOT the US. In that
culture, the emphasis was not just on honesty (that goes without
saying), but on openness, candour and speaking out one's mind, which
is what I perceived the base note to be all about. 

I wouldn't know about American culture at that time, but have been
told --by an American whose opinions I respect-- that during that
era and up until after WWII, human relations in American culture
were also much more upfront and open. In his words, the culture
started to 'pussyfoot around' in the mid fifties (and, yes, I do
realize that 'unified culture' in this continent is an oxymoron). 

As to women rights - I am not sure it applies to this discussion.
Nothing was implied - everyone knew about the double standard. It 
was out in the open.

-- Ron

.26 reminded me of 'Tootsie'. For those just back for Mars, who
missed the movie: 

Julie confides in Michael (in his Dorothy incarnation), that she
longs for true honesty, when a man who wants her for her body alone,
would openly tell her that he wants to make love to her without the
ubiquitous attendant BS. 

In a later scene, Michael --this time as himself-- sees Julie at a
party. He goes over and plays back to her, word for word, the exact
candid repartee she had wished for. 

She gives him a cold, distasteful look and pours her drink on his
head. 

Whoever said that full candor can get you into trouble, was 
absolutely right.

-- Ron 

        But if you have conflicting feelings, why can't you be
        honest about that and try to describe all of them?  It's
        not like the person listening never had an internal
        conflict.
        
        Dan

>>        But if you have conflicting feelings, why can't you be
>>        honest about that and try to describe all of them? 
        
   Good point, Dan.

   Sometimes the easist answers are the hardest to see..

   Mik

    	When I think of the times that I didn't really say what was in my
    	heart, there were a thousand different reasons. Sometimes it was
    	because I didn't want to hurt the other persons feelings,sometimes
        it was because I really didn't KNOW how to say it..But when I look
    	back at the times I have really been honest with my feelings and
        honestly said what I meant it's been when the environment AND the group 
        or person were understanding and really LISTENED.
    
    	For me, I need to know someone really cares and won't judge how I
    	happen to word my feelings...There are so many people walking
    	around with these masks covering who they really are, why would I
    	or anyone else want to take the risk of speaking whats "REALLY"
    	going on...My gusess is, until the rules of life change we will
    	continue with the stuggle of TALKING FROM THE HEART.
    
                                  

    
    and to add yet more food for thought...
    
    Truth without love is brutality...
      love without truth is hypocrisy.
    
    Nanci

Some way back someone asked why anyone would want to play games.

The reason I'd like to play it cool is that from my experience even if someone
really likes you they don't want to hear/see that you really like them straight
away...

I think "playing it cool" is essential if you are not to frighten the person
away... and if they feel you are "there for the taking" they will put that much
less value on you than if they have to "pursue" a little...

Now maybe I'm just meeting the wrong people... but I know that often I feel 
the same way... 

More often than not the guy I am interested in is the one who is "playing it 
cool"... is there something wrong with me?  I would have thought it was just
human nature... do you put more value on the newspaper you buy or the one that
comes through the door for free?



Xtine 

re. 31    Very well put Mike.



>>                          -< Less cost = less value? >-

    To who's standards?  We are not talking about a automobile/newspaper here.
    We are talking about real/emotional human feelings.

>> Some way back someone asked why anyone would want to play games.

    It was me.

>> The reason I'd like to play it cool is that from my experience even if 
>>someone really likes you they don't want to hear/see that you really like 
>>them straight away...
>> I think "playing it cool" is essential if you are not to frighten the person
>>away... and if they feel you are "there for the taking" they will put that 
>>much less value on you than if they have to "pursue" a little...

    Thank you, for saying this.  

    I have been single for the past 10 years.  At first I did not know how
to 'be single'...do I play it 'cool' or honest?  So for the first five yrs.
I played it cool and watched.  Than it started feeling 'all wrong' for one
thing I was not being honest with myself.  I went to all the singles clubs
watched all the 'cool' people mingle.  They didn't seem to have the answer
and they for sure weren't having a good time.  I listened to all the stories
from my friends saying "Oh, I'm not going over to him let him come to me, or I
not going over to her let her come over to me"  What a disaster, because no-
one was getting together!  I mean, if everyone played it cool, how would a
meaningful relationship start?  I thought about it for a while and than 
realized that:

               1. If I really liked or enjoy someones company, I was NOT
going to play it cool, if they didn't want me around they would let me
know, and they have pleasantly.

               2. YES, Xtine, I have met 'those' guys too.  I look at it
this way, if they don't call/write/come around than there was nothing there
anyway, so why even worry about it?  I also should mention here, I am not
unhappy being single.  There are many moments of being 'just with me' that
I find enjoyable.  No, there is nothing wrong with you.  

               3. A loving relationship is the ultimate.  But I do not 
want one that starts off dishonest or untruthful.   Human nature?? No, it
was taught to us by our peers.  My brother(whom is older) still calls me
and says, "Play it cool, don't let him know how you feel"  I laugh.  I am
not afraid of loosing.  Yes, it may hurt, but somehow honesty makes it hurt
alot less.  After all what can be so bad about loving someone, even if they
do NOT love you back, far better than to have never find out and played it 
cool.

      Good luck and I hope it works for you,

Mikki

RE:26>>..But if you have conflicting feelings why can't you be honest that..
          
    Good point. Could it be --> they are not supposed to..?

.32>> ..love without truth is hypocrisy..>>  
 
      I agree, yet I'am tempted to say: "So what..?"
 
    .26> In my favourite Woody Allen movie the main character is a human
    .26> chameleon who becomes a likeness of the people he's around.  When he's
    .26> with black people his skin goes dark, he puts on weight when in the
    .26> company of overweight people and speaks German when he finds himself
    .26> surrounded by Germans.  
                                Kris

In a movie `anything can be possible'. What about looking at the topic
under discussion from a realistic perspective - (stripped of abstractions) ? 
In real life the situation depicted in the first paragraph of.26 can be 
classified as:
              o Pandering -
       
              o Condescending -

              o Sycophantic -    

Pandering/Condescending is definitely a form of hypocrisy. The panderer
is doing IT - to please. The one condescending is acting a role. Both of these
are not being genuine therefore they can be classified as  hypocritical.    
Another way to classify that kind of behavior is alternation.

As an example the one "who gains weight when in the company of overweight people
may be doing it not becuase the individual sincerely likes being overweight or
    overweight people, but as a way of feeling "sorry for them". Such attitude
is not an expression of genuine concern, but possibly of deceit or conceit.
In the nation of Canada an anglophone may utter a statement like: (example) 
"Oh, so you want me to learn *their language ? Ok I'll learn their language for
 you.."(Learn *a language if you WANT. Not becuase you have to do it as a favor
for *them.)  Is this kind of attitude condescending ? Yes ! Is it sincere ? No !

Another example of hypocritical behavior and human relations:
An anglophone from Ontario,Canada (eg.) says, "I don't have any problem with
these Oriental immigrants, they are ok. They can hang with us..." 
Tracy goes home one evening in May and says, "Dad & Mom..I'am going to
the senior prom with Tommy Wong"  Parents --> "Tommy WHO? Over my grave ...!!"
And Dr. Rush can't understand why 23,000 Japanese-Canadians were incarcerated
during the 40s' for no reason, except for the hysterical & xenophobic  rational-
-ization that "the yellow hordes will be taking over our white women.."  
              [Ref. Montreal Gazette page K-7 Jan. 20th 1990] 

ALTERNATION: Is another form of hypocritical behavior - a common method of
handling inner conflict.  Example of playing the game with a `hidden agenda'-->
La Rochefoucault wrote- "We frequently do good, to enable us with impunity to
do <the opposite>" In the Canadian province of Newfoundland (recently) there have
been several convictions and imprisonment of high ranking clerics for molest-
-ation of youngsters who were supposedly being cared for in a charity home.
  
Another example from socio-psychologist Gordon Allport's research:
[In one community the woman who was the most active in keeping <members of
a non-dominant group> out of the neighborhood and "in their place" was also
found to be the *most ACTIVE in devoting her time to charity for that same
<out-group>.  Here is a case of "alternation" and "compromise". But WHY ?
           (Page 379 ISBN 0-201-00179-9: Addison-Wesley Publishing Co.)

Re.0 >The Games People Play..             

 Another form of head-games   - is *bull-sh*tting. 
 A person will use straight talk with YZ but as soon as s/he begins to  
 communicate with XY then the style changes to bull-sh*tting.
 
    .26>    and phony smiles...  And we end up...
    .26> saying and doing things not as real individuals but as end products of
    .26> this process..... The characters we present cannot be honest..because
   >they are reflections of what we perceive the outside world to want from us. 
                                        
                    Esoteric ?                       
    
                                     p.s. My personal experience will follow...

    re. 35
    
    >              o Pandering
    >              o Condescending -
    >              o Sycophantic -    
    
    It was the characters need for security through acceptance which
    caused his reaction.  Most people are like that; acceptance from
    society or from a specific individual will drive us to twist our
    personalities into hair-tangles.
    
    K

    Re:  Mikki


    	I confess some surprise:  I didn't think anyone else felt the same
    way I do on this issue.  ;-)


    	I think part of my belief stems from having seen others "play it
    cool", only to have the other person lose interest.


    	But I think most of my philosophy comes from my innate honesty --
    I'm such a lousy liar that it's hard for me to pretend things I don't
    feel or to pretend I don't feel things that I do.


    	So, I simply "play myself"; I find that challenging enough.  ;-)
    And I honestly think it's the right way to be, although as you pointed
    out it certainly *can* hurt.  But I figure when the right things happen
    with the right person, being this way will make it all that much
    better.  I can't discard the right philosophies (for me) just because
    it's tough sometimes.


>               3. A loving relationship is the ultimate.  But I do not 
>want one that starts off dishonest or untruthful.   Human nature?? No, it
>was taught to us by our peers.  My brother(whom is older) still calls me
>and says, "Play it cool, don't let him know how you feel"  I laugh.  I am
>not afraid of loosing.  Yes, it may hurt, but somehow honesty makes it hurt
>alot less.  After all what can be so bad about loving someone, even if they
>do NOT love you back, far better than to have never find out and played it 
>cool.


    	Very nice.  I sometimes think that if all of us started being more
    honest with ourselves and others, how much easier dating and
    relationships and stuff would be.  No more games.  <Sigh>.  Well, I can
    dream, can't I?  ;-)


    Brian

    A lot of this goes back to the comment Kris made about the movie
    character. Many people (certainly I've been there before) feel so
    insecure that they will do almost anything to be accepted. That is
    what makes peer pressure so effective.

    Taking this idea to relationships and you get the games so many
    complain about. Person x thinks they must pretend to like what
    person y does or person y won't like them. There is a great fear of
    "being yourself" and yourself being rejected. This is especially
    scary when *love* enters the picture. liesl

re. -2  Thank you, Brian for your kind words.  I was starting to feel
like the only one on the planet...:^)...  But actually, I think/wish
everyone sooner or later comes to *this* conclusion.

re. -1  Oh, yes, there is the other side of this coin...  If one wants
to be honest sometimes it means not being so phony in the beginning,
and speaking the truth.  It is much more difficult for me to reject
someone than to be rejected.  No, honesty is not easy, it just makes
you feel at peace with yourself inside.  To me, that is worth the 
effort.

Mikki

    I don't know if I said this before....
    
    I do not equate games with honesty.  Of course you should be honest. 
    But at the right time.  That is strategizing.  Which is part of a game.
    
    The name of the game is I like you and I want you to like me.
    
    If one is a good cook and makes delicious spaghetti, but lousy meat
    loaf what is the first meal that they should serve the new person in
    their life.  Should they be "honest" and serve the meatloaf....or save
    that for much later after the spaghetti has been tasted and
    appreciated.
    
    I think people get a little mixed up about this...we go to classes here
    at DEC that teach us communication techniques.  We don't go up to a 
    person and say "I want this, now".  We get them to buy into our words
    and actions and they come back and tell us "I can do this for you
    no."  Isn't that a game of sorts?   
    
    I think some of us recognize the fact that strategy is necessary in
    inter-personal relationships.
    

    At the end of the day, anything you say and do is a PERSONAL CHOICE!
    
    In any situation, you evaluate what you're about to say and take into
    account all the considerations, ie, is this important that I say it?
    How do I think it will be perceived? Does it fit with the conversation?
    ..... the questions you ask your self are endless ....
    
    Even if you're 'beating around the bush' or out and out lying, you're
    doing it for a reason - to obtain some sort of reaction or goal.
    
    So if you do say or do something, you need to be prepared to take the
    consequences .... otherwise, don't say it or do it !
    
    As long as you THINK before you speak or do, whether the outcome is
    positive or negative, you did it cos you wanted to at the time -
    and that's reason enough for me !
    
    Sounds theoretical, put it also works in practice.
    
    Tracy - who' enjoying your discussion in here.
    So therefore, this must be the real you that you want to show !!!
    
    

    Re .40, Joyce, I recognize the need for it.  I've just never been
    able to figure out how to do it! :-)
    
    Lorna
    

    
>    As long as you THINK before you speak or do, whether the outcome is
>    positive or negative, you did it cos you wanted to at the time -
>    and that's reason enough for me !


    	So by this logic, as long as I carefully thought it out it's
    perfectly okay to lie or be deceitful?  No, sorry, no can do.  It just
    isn't me, and I hope it isn't anyone I know either!  I tell my friends
    and the people I date the same thing:  you can choose not to tell me
    something and that's fine -- just don't lie about it.


    	Joyce, I guess I don't see what you call a "game" as being a game.
    To me, putting your best foot forward is just common sense!  It's not
    reasonable to assume that you can tell someone all your faults/bad
    points, even assuming they wished to hear them all at one fell swoop.
    Besides, I don't consider meatloaf important enough to be an issue
    either way.  ;-)


    Brian
    

    
    	I haven't gone through all the replies yet but thought I'd
    	add my $.02 anyway.
    
    	There's a guy I have known for years.  We've always been pretty
    	good friends.  He went through some rough times and we went our
    	separate ways for a while. But he was always with me.  He has
    	always had a hold on me and probably always will.  I can't really
    	explain what it is.  It's not a physical attraction or an
    	intellectual one...it's just "there".  However, I have never told
    	him how I feel.  The biggest reason being I am getting married
    	in a couple of months and it could cause some waves.  I love my
    	fiance very much and fortunately for me he is not the jealous type.
    	I have many male friends and that doesn't bother him.  He knows
    	of Nick but has never met him.  Nor does he know how I felt/feel
    	about him.   Also, I'm afraid to tell Nick my feelings.  I'm 
    	afraid of destroying the wonderful friendship that had returned
    	to us.  We came in contact with each other again about 6 months or
    	so ago.  It was like going back in time.  He looked the same but
    	he was so different too.  A much nicer person.  When we had first
    	met it looked like something may have come about for us in a 
    	romantic way until someone interfered and it didn't happen.  I
    	don't want to say anything that might scare him away again or
    	make him uncomfortable to be around me.  We've played "head games"
    	with each other many times.  Years ago it used to bother me because
    	my feelings for him were so strong and it was like he was testing
    	me.  But now I know how to play the game so now it's 'fun' in a
    	way.  We both know nothing other than friendship will become of
    	our relationship so the innocent "flirting" is ok.
    
    		JJ

I just spoke to the person I am trying to "play it cool" with... boy is he
frosty...

and his whole conversation is so confusing.. one minute he seems to be "wooing"
me and then the next its all about the other "opportunities" in his life, and
is really "take it or leave it"...

and the awful thing is that although I hate the idea that he's playing games 
with me... I find it all that wee bit more intriguing... although half of me
is saying "you can do without this hassle"


Xtine

>         <<< Note 964.45 by BIGIST::XTINE "and another one down..." >>>

>and his whole conversation is so confusing.. one minute he seems to be "wooing"
>me and then the next its all about the other "opportunities" in his life, and
>is really "take it or leave it"...


	 Are you sure you're not talking to the same guys I am?  ;-)

	 I hate when people do that....and I usually blow up at them
	 for it.  It's like they want to like you, but they want to
	 make sure that you know if they DON'T have you, they won't be
	 lonely.


	 Grrrrrrr.....

	 kath

    Well... I must admit... after the conversation this morning I wish I
    could just ask outright.... "are you serious about all this 'spreading
    it around' or are you just protecting your image"
    
    At the moment we've only met twice, though we've talked quite a few
    times at a very superficial level... one of the reasons he may be being 
    cagey is that I'm currently extrapolating myself from a long-time situation
    which is getting messy (but yeeha! should be finished next week,
    legally and for good)... and the second time I saw this guy he got
    caught up in the flak... so maybe he's playing it cool till I'm
    officially free...
    
    
    See... look at all these games, and the intrigue... why did he say
    that? what happens if I say this?
    
    It is frightening, yet exhilarating to be at the start of a
    relationship... without the games you'd lose a lot of that.
    
    There must be a time though when you stop playing games, and possibly
    discover the other person is not the person you thought they were... 
    
    With my ex, I have finally realised that for him life was one big game
    of "keep everybody happy"... with him you never know what HE really
    thinks or wants...
    
    
    Xtine
            

>>    See... look at all these games, and the intrigue... 
>>    why did he say that? what happens if I say this?
    
      Huh?  The beginning of an relationship is *always* intriging 
      and fun even without games.


>>    It is frightening, yet exhilarating to be at the start of a
>>    relationship... without the games you'd lose a lot of that.
    
>>    There must be a time though when you stop playing games, and possibly
>>    discover the other person is not the person you thought they were... 
    
      Maybe it  is with the games you lose a lot...no?    
    
                  

    Perhaps one of the reasons it feels like we are playing games is that
    we are carrying on this "relationship" if you can call it that over
    long distance....
    
    We met on a course, he has visited me once when it was very 'heavy' cos
    my ex turned up and caused a lot of hassle...
    
    Since then we have tentatively been keeping in touch by mail or phone..
    and its difficult to truely judge conversations when there are no
    visual signs...
    
    Soon my life will be straight, then in a few weeks we have arranged to
    meet - then maybe I can sort out where we stand...
    
    The problem really is that I for one don't want to have any "real"
    conversations over the phone...
    
    But I don't think I have ever been at the start of a relationship where
    there weren't 'games' being played... because you don't know each other
    enough to be totally honest and open, or you don't know the other
    person enough to know if they are being honest.
    
    All you can do is be as honest as possible, without frightening them
    off, and take what the say at face value till you find out different...
    
    THe worst games though, and this is from very recent experience, are
    the ones played at the end of a realtionship... boy do they get
    messy...
    
    
    
    
    Xtine

Another one here in favor of games.  They can be quite enjoyable when 
played properly.  As for rules ... I did an all-too-brief stint a 
while back writing rules for games and discovered that you can't write 
truly accurate rules until you play the game.  Playing seems to be the 
most reliable method of understanding the ins and outs and picking up 
the inconsistencies and unexpected twists you need to document.  And, 
as someone said previously, the more you play the better you get.

So I don't think it's so much a matter of not knowing the rules--most of 
us don't bother with rules anyway, at least not until we run into a problem. 
I think it's unreasonable, even impossible, to have a complete set of rules 
for the oh-so-complicated game of life/love/relationships--too many 
inconsistencies and twists to catch them all.  

No, I think we just don't play properly.  The one part of a game that must 
be known and agreed on up front is the objective.  Why are we playing 
this game?  What are we playing for?  If we're not competing for the 
same goal, we're not even playing the same game; we're all playing our 
own separate little games.  This is the sad part--so many of us playing 
solitaire when we could be playing with each other.  For solitaire, while 
it may keep our minds clicking away and keep us occupied, is just a very 
lonely game for one.
    
Nancy

    re: -2
    
    I agree with the last line...the games played at the end are *very*
    messy.  But I think both sides do it, to protect the feelings of
    the other.  How hard it is to end something that has run it's course.
    You both know it's over but you don't want to be the one to say
    goodbye (ooohhh...great lyrics ;^)
    
    The games played at the beginning are almost as tough.  For me,
    as an assertive woman, to indicate interest without scaring the
    *hit out of them.  Maybe men *really* want to be the one who makes the
    first move.
    
    	sherry

>>    Perhaps one of the reasons it feels like we are playing games is that
>>    we are carrying on this "relationship" if you can call it that over
>>    long distance....
    
      Oh, A LDR.  I think that can be such fun.  I wish you the best and
      most happiness.  Sometimes DEC still has some fringies, huh..8^)

      as a aside, I have found it *much* easier to be honest in 'mail'and
      on the phone.   Why don't you want to talk with him on the phone?

      Just curious,

      Mikki

    Well.. as promised, I'm back from vacation, and here is the reply I
    didn't have the time to place in...

    When I wrote the base note, I was extremely angry at a person.  The
    "its a small net" concept had reared its {ugly} head, and I found out
    something that was NEVER meant for me to know, and well, I do know.

    I am angry at myself because I can't bring myself to confront the
    person.. why? because they are a friend... but what bothers me, is, if
    they are such a "good friend", then why in the hell did they allow
    something to be sent to them without defending me?...  Why did it seem
    like such a joke to them, yet they should have known if I ever found
    out I would be deeply hurt (ah, but there will NEVER be a way for her
    to find out, I'm sure they thought!!)

    Why is it that a game is being played, and I'm allowing it to
    continue?  Why can't I just be honest to the core, and just say, "Hey,
    this is happening, I don't like it, and I wish you'd put a stop to it,
    because you are the only one that can?" 

    Then I'm mad at myself, because I can talk to a friend about it, and
    rant and rave to them, knowing full well, they can't do anything, they
    aren't involved, but I still can't be honest enough to confront the
    real person? Why can I be honest to one person, and not the other?

    So, what do I do, I pretend it never happened...  I say to myself,
    well, they don't know I know, so, I'll just continue on, and just
    not care...  but again, that continues a game that I just wish
    people didn't have to play...

We all play games, to some extent or another.  However, with some people,
the game becomes more important than reality, and they find themselves
consumed with constantly trying to prove to others that they are something
they really are not.  Some of these unfortunates are not even consciously
aware that they're playing a game, and find it impossible to believe when
others get a glimpse behind the facade and find something wholly different.
Their reaction is usually to blame others, since they themselves are so
obviously perfect.

In my experience, the people who do the most "game playing" are the ones whom,
deep inside, like themselves the least.  I feel sorry for them, and now that
I know the signs a bit better, don't let myself play along.


Honesty IS a virtue.  But that doesn't mean advertising all one's faults.  In
my view, it's best just to be yourself, and let others take you as you are.
It's amazing how easy it is and how well it works.

					Steve

.52>  Why don't you want to talk with him on the phone?    
    
    Its not so much I don't want to its that its just impossible... we need
    - I believe - to have some time soon a "where are we" type conversation
    but we can't do that at work... and my ex still lives at home (till
    tomorrow!)... also as I am splitting up just now I feel like I need
    the 'illusion' if thats what it is of someone being interested in me -
    if its not an illusion then great but I'd rather wait for a wee while
    before reality hits me if it is...
    
    It'll be a couple of weeks now before I see him in person - if it is an
    illusion you will soon here from me with the "why do I always fall for
    the wrong type" cry!
    
    Anyhow, tomorrow I am a free woman and I can at least say goodbye to
    those messy 'end games'... the "Don't call me EVER if you see 'him'
    again" then two seconds later "I love you, I'll always be there for
    you"...
    
    arrggghhh.... not long now... then a whole new game to begin ;-)
    
    
    Xtine
                                                   

    Re. 964.36  by BRADOR::HATASHITA
                                
                               re. 35
    
    >              o Pandering
    >              o Condescending -
    >              o Sycophantic -    
    
    .36> It was the characters need for security through acceptance which
    .36> caused his reaction.  Most people are like that; acceptance from
    .36> society or from a specific individual will drive us to twist our
    .36> personalities into hair-tangles.
    
    K
               >>Most people are like that..>> ?   Really ?