Conference quark::human_relations-v1

What does your divorce settlement say about the house?  I'm guessing it says
that your ex is responsible for the mortgage, but that you retain a half
interest in the house until it is sold.  If this is so, then a default on
the mortgage may well indeed affect you.

I'm also guessing that you didn't use a lawyer for the divorce, or else you'd
ask these questions of him/her.  I'd recommend you find one immediately.

					Steve

    If the house is in both names on the note then you are
    responsible to the bank. the only way you could legally get out
    of it would have been for her to get a new mortage. It dosen't matter
    what the divorce settelment said or weather or not you signed a quit
    clame deed. If the house goes down so does your credit rating. If she
    sells it you need to sign the papers as well as her. 

I had my ex's name removed from the contract by simply showing the quit 
claim deed now she never existed as far as both of us are concerned.

-j

    Get an attorney immediately.  Go back to court NOW.  Try to arrange
    your support payment whereas YOU WOULD PAY THE MORTGAGE every month,
    and whatever is left over (Support Obligation minus Mtge Payment= sum
    paid to ex-wife for support).  This has been done.  You could arrange
    for this especially since she is not thinking/acting realistically.
    Don't delay - take care of this NOW.
    

    Hi,  Just jumped in here and saw your question -- I work for lawyers
    and have for years -- and thought I might give you some ideas.  A lot
    depends on the state law where you live, for one thing.  Usually in
    divorce cases, even if the division of property is agreed upon, the
    court requires some kind of written statement of that division to
    determine if it is fair and equitable for both parties.  The court
    ultimately decides whether the division is fair or not, and can alter
    that agreement if he/she chooses. 
    
    Sounds to me like this may be a case of your wife having a lawyer and
    you not being represented.  That's bad news, all the way, my friend. 
    If that's the case, my suggestion is to at least go to Hyatt's Legal
    Services for a cheap consultation and advice on how to proceed from
    here.  If you don't want to do that, and you've already signed the
    settlement agreement, on the date of the hearing for the final decree,
    be present, so you can voice your objection to it to the judge and tell
    him you were not represented by counsel and did not understand all the
    particulars when you signed it, and that you do not feel it is a fair
    division.  That will at least give you time to do some negotiating.  
    
    If I understand you, she quit-claimed the house over to you, but you
    are allowing her to live there, is that right?  If that's the case,
    unfortunately you, and you alone, are responsible for the mortgage. 
    Did she agree to pay a portion of the mortgage?  If not, get that added
    to the settlement.  It's not unusual for the wife to continue to live
    in the home, but there is usually an agreement that if and when the
    husband (owner) decides to sell it, the wife will be paid some amount
    of money for her community interest, depending on the state laws where
    you live.  
    
    On the other hand, if you want to get down and dirty, you can always
    her that if she doesn't use some maturity and common sense, you'll 
    sell the house out from under her.  I'd think that might give her food
    for thought.
    
    Ronda
    
   

    Thanks all!
    	
    	I am all wrapped up in the legal implications and the personal side
    of this issue.  I appreciate all the advice from the legal aspect and I
    am indeed talking to my lawyer about it, but I am also torn about the
    old "co-dependent" issues.
    
    	The divorce papers state it is my X's responsibility to pay the
    bills but my name is on the mortgage so there are some changes that
    need to be made there.  I will be getting the legal ball rolling in
    respect to this today.  The suggestions around paying the mortgage and
    then supplying the difference in child support is fine but it all boils
    down to the same thing, my X needs another source of income to survive.
    
    	Now for the more personal, confrontational aspect of the problem. 
    Last night my X came over to discuss the problem (I live in the same
    town).  She broke down, crying, in despair and this always gets to me.
    So, as is my character, I held her and comforted her.  Typically this
    is where I give in and 'give away the store' as they say but not this
    time.  I offered her a solution.  She asked if I could help her with
    the mortgage just for this semester of school.  I said I am willing to
    pay the mortgage in addition to the regular child support on one
    condition.  The condition is if she is willing to sign a document
    saying that all the money I pay will be deducted from her share of the
    equity once the house is sold, reguardless of when that is.  She said
    'NO!' so I said, 'NO!'.
    
    	I told her this is her problem and I do not want her to make it my
    problem.  She has to live upto her responsibilities.  Signing the
    agreement would not free  her of her obligation but it would enable her
    to follow her present plan of going to school.  I said I am willing to
    help her but I am not willing to 'enable' her to shun her duties.  She
    was insistant on custody of the kids to the point of 'suicide' if she
    didn't get them.  I said this is what you wanted and if she wants to
    change that I am more than willing to get custody which of course
    includes the house and all the financial obligations that go with it.
    By this time we are at volume 9 (out of 10).  This is when she pulled
    out every big gun she had.  She kept saying that I was doing this to
    her out of revenge and evil and I will be the one hurt if she defaults
    on the mortgage.  I told her I am going to insure that I am protected
    if she does and she can't hurt me, only herself.  I told her she has to
    grow up and survive before she can entertain the luxury of being a full
    time student.  She absolutely refuses to change this.  That's your
    decision but you'll have to accept what goes with it.  In the old days
    I would have given in and paid it all without anticipating pay back but
    I stood firm this time and it felt right.
    
    	Now we are at volume 10.  She said I was sticking a knife thru her
    heart.  She then kicked me in the family jewels and slapped me.  My
    first instinct was to rip her head off but I didn't.  I literally
    'Turned the other cheek' and said if that makes you feel better do it
    again, so she slapped me 3 more times.  Take in mind that I am 6'6" and
    she is 5'1', but she still has a hell of a right hook.  Inside I felt
    like I did the right thing but I am still wondering.  My lack of
    lashing out at her made me feel uneasy.  Was I saying in a big way that
    this time it's different and you are going to have to sleep in the bed
    she made for herself or am I putting her in such a defensive mode that
    she is going to start using the kids as a power move.  She has said she
    would never do that but all the rules and promises go out the window
    when the intensity level is this high.
    
    	Am I doing the right thing?  Is this one of those things that is
    good for you reguardless of the pain?  Or did I just sign a declaration
    of war?  Has anyone out  there dealt with these issues before, not only
    from the legal aspect but also the psychological side of it and how did
    it turn out for you?
    
    						I hope I'm Right!
    							George

    I think you did the right thing, George.  I admire your courage and
    strength.  You made her a perfectly reasonable and generous offer
    and she refused it.  As you already suspect, though, the worst times
    are probably yet to be.
    
    				Steve

George

On the face of it your wife is wanting to have her cake and eat it... but 
without knowing both sides it is difficult to understand why.

The most reasonable suggestion is that you "lend" here the money and she pays
you back from the equity.

I cannot see why this is unreasonable to her, unless she feels that this 
situation has been foisted on her and so she can't see why she should be
reasonable...


It might help for you to talk together with a third-party to stop the discussion
getting so emotional.

We found that talking it out with the Building Society manager helped as he
has no 'sides' but has the interests of getting an affordable solution.



Xtine

    It seems she is a woman used to getting her way, and may have
    difficulty with the fact that she can no longer get you to do what she
    wants.  Buckle down and hang tough - be compassionate and understanding
    but stand fast.
    
    Sounds like you did the right thing to me.  Make SURE the lawyers know
    if she starts getting irrational and using various
    emotional/financial/responsibilital weapons against you.  If she
    threatened "suicide" if she didn't get custody - it sounds like she's
    kind of unbalanced and it would be wise to be careful about what she
    pulls next, especially if it involves the kids at all (as you said).
    
    -Jody
     

    In my last divorce We discussed and were willing to use mediation.
    (We would pay a third party to make sure no one lost control.) I would
    hope that in the future you would utilise this method. I hope it would
    cut down on the physical abuse you have had to endure up to this point.
    Irreguardless of your size you dont need to put yourself in a situation 
    that requires your literally "turning the other cheek".
    
    I think you have offered resonable solutions to her problem. I beleive
    that you have been patient with her whims and any agreement you make
    with her needs to be documented with another court apearance or a
    notorized paper with the agreement spelled out on it.
    
    I would consider a restraining order for your residence. By meeting in
    a public place or with your children present she is more likely to
    maintain control. If she loses control you will have witnesses and 
    they could be nessesary if she desides to be nasty or accuse you of
    assault. Her hitting you could have been her way to try to get you 
    to lose control and use the situation for her advantage. 
    
    I think you have shown remarkable restraint. Keep up the good work and
    dont allow her to 'get to ya'.
    janet

    When my husband and I split up I left with just my pets and personal
    belongings. He kept everything we had worked together to achive.
    Friends have been telling me to fight and get a lawyer. After
    reading notes like this I KNOW I made the right choice to get out
    and leave the goods behind. No amount of material possesions can be
    worth what you are going through. I feel for you. liesl

    Five Bucks & a Blood test to get married - a FORTUNE to get divorced!
    
    Distribution of Assets... I am assume you got the standard 50 -50
    split on the house.   If you go to the mat over this house - that
    is (delinquent mortgage payments) you can kiss your share of this
    house goodbye!  Along with your credit rating - regardless or not
    if your ex is being realistic - she is not and you will pay also
    - you need to contact your lawyer and get a re-assessment 
    of the agreement. OR just pay the mortgage for a few months until
    she finishes the semester.   The net value of this house is going
    to increase if you are really interested in your share one of you
    will have to bite the bullet.   
    
     
    
    

    	A few days after the confrontation I described in reply 6 my X
    called back and apologized for the physical attack.  I said I was sorry
    it happened and she felt she had to do it.  She then said she is
    willing to sign the paper for this month but is dropping out of school,
    selling the house, and plans to get out of here as soon as possible. 
    We agreed it would be OK to move to any area reachable by me easily on
    weekends.  Of course she thru in there that I destroyed her soul by
    doing this to her.  In the meantime I talked with my Lawyer and set up
    the paperwork.  It's becoming clear to me that my X's Motus Operandi is
    one 'threats'.  I'm becoming knumb to it all.  
    
    	Thanks for all your feedback...............George

    	Here we go again!  My X had afew real estate people come in and
    they told her we can't get anything for the house right now but in a
    year it should be allot better.  So she says she got screwed by this
    deal and it's not fair.  She says she is going to just move away and
    leave it all behind.  She says I am going to lose big time as far as
    credit and equity loss.  I explained I am getting my name taken off of
    the mortgage and will protect my credit but will lose the equity.  I
    was talking out of my hat a bit but I will not sit there and have her
    threaten me like that.  So now she starts saying I can't see the kids
    without 24 hours notice and it will be every other weekend that I see
    them.  The way it is now my kids can't stand not seeing me every other
    day.  And she used to say I don't take the kids enough and she deserves
    a break from them.  So now with these threats which go against every
    thing she has said I have no idea what she will say next.
    
    	How do I handle it?  Just take it one day at a time or should I
    just retreat until it cools down?
    
    						George

Why are you asking us instead of your lawyer?  The sooner you move to
establish your legal position, the better off you'll be.

				Steve

    
    What .15 said.   Get it all legal and quick.
    
    
    Steve

    	Rest assured that I have been tallking to my lawyer almost daily. 
    We are preparing paperwork to start contempt of court hearing on here
    for her failure to meet her obligations.  The legal side is rolling
    along and I am covering my butt.  I have asked my lawyer about these
    issues and get the same message each time.  That message is "Nail Her
    To The Wall!!!'  I will not do this if I don't have to.
    
    	When I use this medium I am asking what I concider to be a very
    expierienced group of people what has been their stories and what they
    have learned.  For the lessons life has offered you all I assume there
    is wisdom to share with us all.  For those that have 'Nailed Their
    Spouse to the Wall did you regret it later?, Do you think you would
    have handled it differently if you could do it again?, What's the good
    side and what's the bad side?, Did your kids resent your actions and
    did your spouse poison their thoughts about you?  How old were your
    kids at divorce time and how have they adjusted?  Did you use a weaning
    off period or was it shockingly fast?  This is tyhe guidance I seek!
    
    							George

Regret? Only in that I diden't get a video copy of her face when the judge
told her she was awarded nothing except for the bills she had created since
our seperation $20K! She thought she was going to screw me but good but she
got it instead.

My ex tryed playing games with me and got away with it she tryed playing the
same games with the court and just 'got it'.

-j

    George, I understand and empathize with your need for guidance and a
    sharing of experiences.  I just wish I had some to share with you
    (well, I have the experiences, but no answers yet).
    
    I'll repeat a question I've asked previously in this file:  what's the
    big deal about lawyers?  In my experience they tend to respond like
    George's lawyer -- "Nail them to the wall" -- without regard for human
    feelings and emotions and the human relations (that is the name of this
    file, isn't it?) backlash caused when two people who once loved each
    other and have produced children together go their separate ways.  In
    my experience laywers are OK (not great, but OK) for legal advice.  But
    they're lousy when it comes to the human side of things, and I don't
    trust any of the ones I've dealt with to have anything but dollars as
    their concern.
    
    I hope I'm wrong.
    
    Looks like my ex is playing one on me, too, and I may end up back in
    court before the year's out.
    
    Anyone know a good lawyer in Massachusetts?  (That's a SERIOUS
    question.)
    
    Good luck, George.  If it helps to know you're not alone in this type
    of situation, be comforted. 
    
    Karen
    

    George -
    
    I, too, wish I had better answers for you.  For the record, my son
    was not quite 6 when we separated, 9 when we (finally) went to court
    for the divorce.  We were able to keep the lawyers out of it until
    we knew what we wanted firmly enough that all we needed was our
    wishes put into legal jargon.  (We also had one lawyer advise both
    of us when we originally separated, to let us know what issues we
    needed to cover.)
    
    My over-riding question, at all points along the way, was "What
    is best for *our son*?".  I frequently subordinated my wants to
    what seemed best for him.  I believe my ex did the same.  It doesn't
    sound like you are in that place, but if you can concentrate on
    the *kids*, on their needs, perhaps you can minimize (not eliminate)
    the pain and agony.
    
    Alison

Re: .19

I (and presumably others) have been advocating using a lawyer, not as
an offensive move, but as a defensive measure.  When one deals with
dissolving a marriage, an institution that has perhaps the most complex
legal ramifications of anything in our society, it makes sense to find ones
way through the maze of traps with the help of someone who understands the
system and who can protect your interests.

This does not mean "nailing to the wall" - which is an act of revenge, and
I don't believe that revenge has any place in a divorce.  However, no
matter how fair and rational you are, your ex may NOT be so and may indeed
have revenge on his/her mind, and your ex may not hesitate in the slightest
in finding the kind of lawyer often referred to as a "shark".  You owe it
to yourself to protect your rights in the legal system, and the way to do
that is to consult a competent lawyer and heed his or her advice.

Now that we have gotten that out of the way, my advice to George would be
NOT to attack in kind, but to follow a conservative legal path that gives
away nothing, protecting his rights and his sanity.  This should be possible
without "nailing her to the wall".

Be compassionate, but don't be foolish.

			Steve

    Rat hole alert -- re. -.21 (QUARK::LIONEL)
    
    Steve, just in case my diatribe against lawyers was misunderstood, I
    want to go on record as saying I fully believe ANYONE facing a court
    appearance for ANY reason should be represented by a lawyer of their
    own, and most definitely should NOT share one with their opponent.
    
    My comments in .19 were aimed at the US judicial system and the many
    lawyers who USE it to benefit their own glory or their own wealth -- or
    to perpetuate the status quo -- rather than to seek justice.  I believe 
    it's money grubbing lawyers more than money grubbing complainants 
    that have created a situation where two adults dare not resolve a 
    conflict without resorting to legal advice to make sure their a**es are 
    covered.
    
    I'm not saying George's situation SHOULD be handled without consulting 
    a lawyer.  I am concerned that by far the majority of responses to his 
    -- and similar -- questions have advised seeking legal advice rather 
    than seeking a less adversarial approach, such as a neutral-party 
    counselor.
    
    I'm glad to hear there are some lawyers who, when consulted, will
    advocate less confrontational responses to conflict.  Unfortunately,
    that hasn't been my experience.
    
    Speaking from my own experience, and from the experience of others I
    know, it's the "nail 'em to the wall" attitude of the lawyers that so
    frequently turns a friendly agreement "to divide the property and go
    our separate ways" into a protracted legal battle that ends only when 
    both sides have no more money to pay the legal fees.  The lawyers are 
    the only ones who win.
    
    Now, back to George's problem....
    
    Karen     

Re: .6?

The most disturbing thing to me in this whole exchange is that George(?) 
was physically assaulted by X.  Why were not the police called and a 
complaint for assault sworn out?

If it were the other way around, had he struck her, you can bet that he 
would have found his *ss in the slammer in no time...

Bob_who_is_letting_some_anger_at_unfairness_in_society_sneak_out

    I dont think it was overlooked Bob.  It was seen and igno.
    
    You know as well as we do what would have happened.
    
    

    To pick a nit or two:

    Assault is a willful *attempt or threat* to inflict injury upon
    another person or any intentional display of force which gives the
    victim reason to fear or expect immediate bodily harm.  There is no
    physical contact involved.

    Once physical contact occurs, battery has been committed.

    I thought I may add my two cents.  I was divorced in 1971 and at the
    time was told to take my husband to the cleaners.  We had four children
    who were from 14 to 8 years of age and I had minimum child support, no
    alimony.  I was the one who asked that the children and I be allowed to
    stay in the house until they were grown and then the house would be
    sold with the proceeds split in two.  I also assumed all expenses for
    the house, all he paid was the child support $60 a week.  I had a lot
    of advice I did wrong (especially when he defaulted on the child
    support) but I did what I could live with.  Even when he disappeared
    after a year and half after the divorce, at least I could live with
    myself and that is what is important.
    
    The children and I survived (I later went back to court and was given
    the house out right - 5 years later) and I have no regrets to being
    fair.  All this to tell you that do what feels right in your gut, if
    you nail her to the wall as people are suggesting I think you will
    spend too many hours wondering about it.
    
    The only part I would definitely fight for is seeing the children, my
    children did feel the loss and they are grown and are just resolving
    this.
    
    Not sure this helps but hang in there.
    
    Take care Pat
    

    	I am the author of this note and will continue the story.  I made
    my X the offer I suggested earlier and she took it but now it's almost
    too late.  
    
    	I agreed to lend her the monies she needed for bills, especially
    the mortgage for which I would accept payment out of her share of the 
    equity of the house once sold.  She agreed to this 2 weeks ago and I
    gave her $500 which was the balance necessery for the Feb mortgage
    payment.  Rather than making the paymeny she decided to treat the kids
    and boyfriend to a couple of days in Portsmith N.H. which included
    costs for a motel, resteraunts, and basic fun.  She says to me the next
    week she still needs $500.  I was so angry I didn't comply.  Then the
    equity loan was due and I paid that, $135.  
    
    	I got another desparation plea from her this week, I gave in.  I
    don't have the money so I applied for a personal loan thru the DCU and
    was denied because of the due payments and possible bad credit building
    and I have a bad Income/debt ratio.  So I can't get a loan to pay my
    overdue bills because I have overdue bills. 
    
    	I sit here with a need for atleast 3 grand just to get things back
    to level zero and I don;t know what to do.  
    
    	I'm really at my witts end on this one.  Any advise around where I
    could get the needed money or some other avenue to resolution would be
    appreciated.
    
    							George

    Uh, pardon the brevity and the curtness, but it sounds like you're
    getting hosed by your ex.  Why do you keep giving her money when
    it's obvious she is not using it as it is intended?  It sounds to
    me like you're going to end up digging your own financial grave.
    
    You *gave* her the $500 you agreed to.  What happens if you give
    her more and she goes out on a fun weekend again?  Are you just
    going to keep giving until _voila!_ she finally uses the money to
    pay of the debt, and meanwhile, YOU'VE got the bill collectors after
    you?
    
    I think it sounds like you've got the draw the line.
    
    At your wallet.
    
    ---kim

The ex needs a job and you need some boundaries.

She treated the kids and the boyfriend to a nice time and you have to pay?
Why?  My ex would laugh his face off if I ever came to him with this
scenario.  

What are you getting from all of this anyway?  You're overly responsible 
towards her and enabling her irresponsibility.    

I agree with the previous reply.  She's hosing you and you're allowing it.
You're not a victim, you're a volunteer.  Put your hand down the next time
she asks for someone to come to the front of the class and work the
problem out on the board.  tell her to figure it out herself.

Let her face the consequences of her "mistakes" and her behavior will
change then.  Until then, she's going to drain you of everything you have
and it will a decision you had an active part in.

/s

    Um, .30... please reread his entries.....
    
    He is only doing this (partly I believe) because he doesnt want to have
    a poop for credit rating.  Incedently, his name IS on the morgage, so
    if she defaults (pretty inevitable anyhow IMHO) hell get the hosing,
    not her.  
    
    As to you George, .30 wasnt that far off the mark, your rating is
    getting hosed real fast, do something and quick.  Contact the legal
    department, or even the EAP as Mike suggested, what can it hurt?
    It can only help if not at least emotionally.
    
    She's doing you in and you're allowing it.  Stop her or for ever hold
    your piece....
    
    no, it wasnt misspelled, I ment it that way....
    
    as in a piece of your behind.
    
    Good luck pal.  Hope things get better..
    
    AL

    If you should decide to help her again - pay the creditors directly and
    get her to sign a note saying that she borrowed the money and for what
    purpose.  Something I learned a long time ago - get everything in
    writing, i.e., CYA!
    
    Nanci