| T.R | Title | User | Personal
Name | Date | Lines |
|---|
| 939.1 | | STAR::RDAVIS | Abstract, attentive and unsure | Fri Jan 05 1990 12:13 | 24 |
| If you can't figure out any way of offering solace to Janet that
doesn't involve starting an affair, then you shouldn't offer solace.
No matter how I turn the situation, it involves too much pain and
deceit. If she truly wishes to be single, she can be - many of the
noters in H_R can testify to that! - and any feelings between you which
have survived this long should have a chance of surviving that
transition.
That's my Ann Landers answer. In real life, a loved one in need is the
most difficult of all temptations. I've never had the strength to
resist it in the past and I haven't seen many people who have.
I would probably stay and try to be supportive, but continue to "lay
the sword between us". It would obviously be a dangerous situation and
I have no idea how long it would remain tenable.
One more thing: If you are successful to the extent of not cheating on
or lying to your friends, you should try not to think of yourself as
"contributing to the breakup" or "making things worse". It sounds as
though the marriage has problems, period, and you certainly haven't
acted like a homewrecker so far. Life gets ugly at these junctures -
there isn't much that anyone involved can do to make it pretty.
Ray
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| 939.2 | you're ok, she's got problems | TLE::RANDALL | living on another planet | Mon Jan 08 1990 11:52 | 19 |
| If she's unhappy in the marriage, but can't leave without your
help, you might suggest that she see a counsellor of some sort --
if she's religious, her pastor, priest, or rabbi might be the best
place to start -- to help her sort out her true feelings.
You can't make the decision for her, though it sounds like she
might want you to. Making it for her would be a trap -- if she
leaves him for you, at your urging, and it doesn't work out, she's
liable to blame you for breaking up her marriage, whether it's
true or not.
Marriages do sometimes get flat after a while, after you see the
same old person every day, day after day, for years. And here you
are, world traveller, adventure incarnate, dropped into her
everyday life. In circumstances like that, it's easier to look
outside for excitement than it is to look inside to rekindle and
strengthen the old spark.
--bonnie
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| 939.3 | don't get too close | WMOIS::R_ELWELL | Dirty old men need love, too. | Mon Jan 08 1990 15:30 | 8 |
|
I think that at all costs you need to avoid an affair that could
kill their marriage. If it's not a good one, let them try to get
it straightened out without your adding a problem to it. It seems like
all you can do is care that they are happy, and see how you can help
if they need it......
....Bob
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| 939.4 | the songs and poems are full of it | TINCUP::KOLBE | The dilettante debutante | Mon Jan 08 1990 17:10 | 16 |
| 939.5 | Fun at first but..... | DONVAN::KEENAN | | Mon Jan 08 1990 17:39 | 6 |
| WARNING! WARNING! WARNING! DANGER! PAIN! LIES! GUILT!
DON'T GET INVOLVED IN AN AFFAIR!
Wait for her as long as you can stand it.
(just my opinion)
|
| 939.6 | <<What are friends for?>> | GVA01::LANGTON | Theo Langton @GEO | Fri Jan 12 1990 11:17 | 30 |
| >>I wonder how many marriages break up over best friends getting
involved with spouses<<
Mine did. And it's led to the most difficult situation of my life,
which you all can read about in note 948.
My "best friend" and wife maintain that their relationship has nothing
to do with our breakup, but I know that's wrong, and I know it has
made the situation so emotionally charged that we will never be
able to get back together.
My advice to the best friend in the base note is that if you are
really a best friend, you will let their marriage work itself out
without any involvement on your part. If it breaks, and you are
in love with the woman, OK. But if she knows how much you love her
and are waiting for her, it will influence their marriage. Be clear
and don't go into the grey space where desires, justice and friendship
are confused and indistinguishable.
Whatever happens, you will feel so much better about yourself if
you act as true friend rather than a friend/self-interested
manipulator/hasty romantic. If it is real love, be patient.
By the way, you seem to have never said a thing to the husband.
I found out about my best friend via a third party, and I can tell
you it didn't help.
Theo
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| 939.7 | Reply from anonymous author of base note | QUARK::HR_MODERATOR | | Mon Jan 15 1990 16:51 | 49 |
| What have I done ?
It's very complicated and seems to be getting more so with each passing
day. Over the past two weeks, Janet and I have had some long talks. I
told her that she didn't have to explain anything, didn't have to give
me reasons and told her that I would always come to her if she ever
needed someone. I've also told her that I feel terribly guilty and it's
getting worse. I tried asking her if there was any way I could stop her
doing what she seems so determined now to do. She said no, and was that
what I really wanted.
Half of me says "yes", the sensible half, the half that would sacrifice
my feelings to save their marriage. The other half ? I've managed this
long, I'll survive.
On Sunday morning, Janet rang me. She and John had had a big row I
guess, and he had gone off on his own. I had to go, although I couldn't
see what I could do besides offer a shoulder to lean on.
She then told me that she has been in love with me for a long time as
well ! I didn't know WHAT to say. She regrets being married and said
she wasn't sure before they were married. I don't think it's for me or
because of me, I think that she misses herself, her own person. She
said she always picks John up from work and takes him to work in the
morning and never has time on her own. Perhaps she does see in me a
little of what she wants for herself, freedom, adventure, I don't know.
I feel like I've suddenly given her support to break away. I hate the
not telling John, and I know he suspects something between Janet and I,
but I also feel like I would be betraying Janet's trust in me. If only
I could find a way to get them to talk to each other, instead of the
resentment and tension that's building around us, around me.
So... here I am. Perhaps not the main reason for all this, but a large
part of it. Janet seems to see me as a reason to try to start again,
someone to start again with, and all I can do is tell her she doesn't
really know me, the risks are too great as she has so much to loose,
and would it be so very different anyway ? I ask myself "Who am I to
judge ?", what makes me so righteous that I think I could change
anything and yet the more ensnared I become.
I should have left, gone away, ran away once more, then I wouldn't have
to watch this happen, wouldn't have to be part of it, wouldn't have to
be the reason. It feels like the calm before the storm. I know a
terrible storm is coming, at my calling, and now... having created
something I can't control, it's going to wreck my two best friends
lives.
|
| 939.8 | the cynical romantic speaks | TINCUP::KOLBE | The dilettante debutante | Mon Jan 15 1990 23:05 | 15 |
| Get real. If you were really that torn up you'd leave and let them
work it out. Hey, human nature tends towards liking these hot but
forbiden desires. Look inside and see if you aren't really enjoying
this. She WANTS you, she NEEDS you, doesn't it feel wonderful?
Even in suffering love has it's highs, that's why we're all so
vulnerable to it even when we know better. If you don't get out now
you won't get out. I can't help it, this reminds me of the line,
"trust me, I'll pull out in time".
I'm sorry if I sound harsh, perhaps it's because I'm so weak in love
that I doubt my honor would suffice to remove me if I was in a
similar situation... It's just that this scenerio is sooooo common.
One thing is certain, your friendship is just about history. liesl
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| 939.9 | (Get Real Revisited) | GVA01::LANGTON | Theo Langton @GEO | Tue Jan 16 1990 07:12 | 45 |
| Re: .8
My sentiments exactly, liesl. Excuse me for being harsh with the
author of the base note, but .7 sounds like someone going for what
they want but feeling too guilty to admit it. The show of being
"all torn up" over their breakup is really the anguish, excitement,
anticipation and repressed thrill of victory. Another common way
of being cute and avoiding responsibility is through mock humility:
"But I'm probably no better for you than your original husband was.
I'm not sure if this is the right thing for you." Nothing fans the
flames of attraction like this humility. But notice that you are
doing it once you've got (or are pretty sure you will get) what
you're after.
I don't mean that you are being a cold, calculating person or that
you are consciously manipulating people. But we play these games
with ourselves all the time, and don't even recognize it. My feeling
is "Take responsibility for your actions and cut the theatrics."
By feeling guilty and indulging in this "mock" suffering (it feels
real, but we unconsciously convince ourselves to feel it), you may
have the impression of participating and sharing in your friends'
difficulties. But how much better to be clear with yourself, and
to force yourself to be clear with your "friends" rather than using
the emotional tension and complexity of the situation as an
(unconscious) excuse to mask your guilt and excitement.
There is a chinese saying "Conduct your triumph as a funeral". To
me, this means not rubbing it in to the "losers" by gloating, and
not making guilt-ridden excuses like "but I didn't really mean to win
and don't even deserve it". It means having some real dignity and
solemnity which give events the respect they deserve, and that you
take responsibility for them. Some day the shoe may be on the other
foot.
I don't mean to couch this discussion in terms of "winners" and
"losers", but in your case I think it is important you recognize
what you really want and are trying (albeit with anguish and guilt)
to get.
Easier said than done, but I believe any steps we can take in this
direction are better than none.
Theo
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| 939.10 | Know what you want | CADSYS::BAY | J.A.P.P. | Wed Jan 17 1990 15:51 | 40 |
| Lest I be accused of missing the point, I see the dilemma as being
that your presence may actually be causing some or all of the
discomfort and problems. That is, she is attracted to you, and staying
might influence her into a course she might not otherwise pursue. So
you are thinking "Do I give her the option, or take away her choices?".
Sometimes I get lost in the "Gee is this the RIGHT thing?" quandry.
In the past, when I find myself attracted to someone who is dating, or
has an SO (or, God forbid, is married), I am torn between two
alternatives:
Walking away, because if *I* were her guy, I'd rather that other
guys respect that we're already an item, and not confuse things
any more than they already are, or...
Jumping right in, because the couple will either find that, by
comparison, they are "right" together, or under stress discover
it isn't working, and maybe the new guy (me) is better than the
old guy.
Sort've a "born in the fifties, live in the eighties" dilemma. Its
real, can be painful and EXTREMELY frustrating.
But I agree that you can't decide what is right for the other person,
only what is right for you.
It will also help to know what you want. That is, is it the PERSON you
are attracted to, or is it the LIFE between the two that you find
attractive (I kept hearing you say how "happy" they were together).
Believe me, the life is thiers and thiers alone. You MIGHT have
something equally as good with the same person, but the LIFE they have
together is a product of thier chemistry. THIER life may be what you
want more than anything, but don't kid yourself that by taking away one
of the partners, that you will automatically get all the elements of
thier relationship.
Jim
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| 939.11 | Or the seventies, or the sixties... | CADSYS::BAY | J.A.P.P. | Wed Jan 17 1990 15:53 | 8 |
| "live in the eighties"
Well, hey! They ninties haven't exactly defined themselves yet - at
least I have *SOME* idea of what living in the eighties was about - I
was there! (I think).
Jim
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| 939.12 | don't let yourself be an option | WILARD::BARANSKI | Vote for NoneOfTheAbove Write In Candidate | Tue Nov 06 1990 16:45 | 7 |
| When getting involved with someone unhappily married, let them make their choice
between staying married or being single. Don't let being with you be one of
thier options. It's easier to get involved in a distracting affair then to stay
and work out the problems in the relationship, but it solves nothing, and you
will inherit the problems.
Jim.
|