Conference quark::human_relations-v1

    Just think, in the US, the majority of our voting citizens have sided
    with the [insert your adjective of choice] administration for 10 years
    while it systematically dismantled the social service resources that
    make life livable for our weakest and poorest citizens.
    
    Just think, noters parties have warmth and food to spare while the
    homeless and the hungry suffer in our inner cities and rural areas.
    
    Just think how many of us reading this file have just celebrated a
    holiday by eating to the point of gluttony and spending to the point of
    selfishness while the people in Romania and China and Nicaraugua, etc.
    etc. (oh, yes, and the US of A) are fighting for their lives and for
    freedom.
    
    Just think, enough of the citizens of this great country of ours have
    deliverd a message to their governmental representatives at all levels
    that they're unwilling to pay any more taxes, so schools -- and
    the training of tomorrow's citizens -- are being cut back to 
    unacceptable levels.
    
    Just think how the last two generations have depleted the resources of
    our Earth, contaminated its water and spoiled its land and poisoned its
    air, all in the name of "advancement" and living the easy life.
    
    Just think how easy it is to point a finger at others who have done
    what they felt they had to do under the circumstances, yet feel so
    terribly self righteous about the decisions we ourselves make on a
    daily basis.
    
    Let's not judge anyone until we've experienced first-hand the
    situations they're in when they make the decisions they do.
    
    Karen

In a country which has been ruled with such an ironfist the 
statistics presented by Egypt::Russel should not suprise any of 
us. How can we truly say without being in such a tolitarian state 
what we would truly do. Pontification of one's stance without 
being in such an evironment is hardly a substitute.

Is it right that other endangered say my life? No it isn't right 
but when you put someone in a situation where they must choose 
between living and dying only a small handful will choose dying.
The pressures of not knowing whether the aunt or uncle were 
informants to the government, collaborators, or even part of a 
private hit squad of the government made people afraid. They 
could not trust anyone but themselves for fear of putting their 
own lives on the chopping block.

Yes, alas, this does reek somewhat of McCarthyism but the 
situation is similar but very different. It is at all possible to 
understand that those who saved "their own job and skin" were 
worried about the families they had. We will never know.

After all is said and done I have pity for the collaborators. Not 
for them as people but more for the situation that they have been 
forced into. It is not a good feeling to turn a friend or 
neighbor in to save one's own fate. Even then if the information 
did not keep flowing it was possible they would find themselves 
at the end of the loaded gun.

I would sell information if I was starving. Whether it be bread 
or cake is immaterial. I personally do not welcome death with open 
arms but the fear and guilt of betrayal would scar my memory 
forever.

Turning against humanity never becomes a reasonable act. As long 
as people have emotions, feelings and life it will never be 
reasonable. Hitler tried to eliminate an "inferior" race and that 
damned act could never be considered deemed for humanity! 

What you have asked us to choose between is our own basic value 
systems. My answer may not be right for others and I can accept 
that. However, I have to live with my conscience not theirs.


->    Just think, in the US, the majority of our voting citizens have sided
->    with the [insert your adjective of choice] administration for 10 years
->    while it systematically dismantled the social service resources that
->    make life livable for our weakest and poorest citizens.

Excuse me, I think this is a little off base from the discussion 
presented by the base author. Could we be going down a rathole?
  
Debbi

    re. -.3 (JAWS::GEORGE) - Debbi, I'm sorry you think my reply was
    opening a rat hole. That wasn't my intention.  My intention ws to point
    out (perhaps clumsily and too indirectly) that collaboration is in the
    eye of the beholder.  People who go along with and support any
    administration could be called collaborators by the opponents of that
    administration.  Just depends on which side you support.
    
    By the by, do the neighborhood watch groups in Boston's inner city
    neighborhoods that are turning in drug pushers qualify as
    "collaborators"?  Just a thought.
    
    8-}
    Karen

    
    
->  My intention ws to point
->    out (perhaps clumsily and too indirectly) that collaboration is in the
->    eye of the beholder.  People who go along with and support any
->    administration could be called collaborators by the opponents of that
->    administration.  Just depends on which side you support.
  
    Thanks for the clarification, no it wasn't clumsily siad. It is just
    hard sometimes to get the meaning of something electronic.
    
          
->    By the by, do the neighborhood watch groups in Boston's inner city
->    neighborhoods that are turning in drug pushers qualify as
->    "collaborators"?  Just a thought.
  
    I feel truly this is a comparison of apples and oranges. Drugs and gang
    violence have caused more unnecessary crime in the inner cities than
    ever before. It will only get worse with time. In Roumania we are
    talking a destructive government.  In this neck of existence we are
    talking about drug pushers.
    
    Maybe the one common link is the government/illicit substance. Hmm I'll
    have to think on that one and get back to you....
    
    Debbi  

    1.>Just think how easy it is to point a finger at others who have done
    1.>what they felt they had to do under the circumstances, yet feel so
    1.>terribly self righteous about the decisions we ourselves make on a
    1.>daily basis.
    
    I wasn't trying to point fingers or be self righteous.  I want to 
    know, when the chips are really down, how would we act when life
    could be improved (or kept) by collaborating.
    
    By collaborating I mean to cooperate with or assist an enemy of one's
    country and especially an occupying force.  With Roumania, the
    government itself was the enemy of the country, especially since the
    communist government was an occupying force.
    
    The government of Roumania was a horrible government.  Repressive,
    slaughtered its own citizens, starved and tortured people.  Manipulated
    the people to distrust one another for the purpose of keeping the
    government in power.
    
    The politics and rightness (morality, if you will) of collaborating 
    seem to form a continuum.  At one end, you turn your neighbor
    over to a death squad knowing she will be tortured and killed but that
    you receive a better apartment and more food rations for it.  On the
    other end, you do not write a letter of protest when the WIC program 
    is cut back.  (Malnourishing expectant mothers and babies is hardly 
    the work of a friend of this country.)  And all the shades in between. 
    
    I have no idea how I would act.  I hope to never have to be in an
    extreme situation.  I hope if I am that I will be strong enough to NOT
    collaborate whatever the personal cost.  What if I have children?  What
    if my actions save a loved one at the expense of someone I don't know?
    
    I'm hoping that by bringing up this nasty little topic we can examine
    the dilemma of the people of Roumania and think where we ourselves
    might fall in the continuum. I sometimes hope that if most of us think
    that "evil triumphs when good people do nothing" we will all do
    _something_ positive and evil will not win.
    
    (For those of you wondering:
     yes, I once studied ethics with a Jesuit    :^)  :^)   :^)
    

    What's that line, "ask not for whom the bell tolls, it tolls for
    thee"? Each time we take action for or against someone/something we
    affect ourselves and the world we live in. I wish I was brave and
    could say in honesty that I would take the "noble" action but I
    doubt I would have the true courage that takes. That's why so many
    horrible things are allowed to survive, most people are like me.

    If there was no evil in the world there would also be no good. One
    can not exist without the other. What is good may change as our
    views change. Who is to say that all the informants thought what
    they did was bad? I just saw an article in the newspaper that said
    two towns in America have started asking their citizens to turn in
    anyone who uses drugs. Is that good or bad? liesl

    

    
    	RE: .7 
    
    	I think anytime a goverment asks it's people to spy on one another
    	regardless of the reason, we're getting on thin ice. I don't think
    	the fact that it's drugs makes any difference. The bottom line is
    	we are being asked to keep watch over one another. What next, do
    	we start taking down plate numbers of every car that pulls into
    	one of our neighbors driveway? If we allow this for "drugs" will
    	it stop there? Will we then be asked to watch for family violence?
    	How about tax evasion? Where do we draw the line?
    
    	G_B
    
    	PS - Speaking from a point where I've been in combat. No one can
    	say how they will act when faced with these choices. Logic and
    	saying "I would feel this way" count for nothing. The only way
    	you know for sure is to live though it if you're lucky!!

I don't know how I would actually respond if put in one of these
difficult situations.  But over time, I believe it is possible to
change ones mode of thinking, to test your principles in less
critical situations, and gradually build conviction for what you
believe to be the appropriate response.

In my case, I've made a commitment to non-violence and have been
working at it for about 3 years now.  I see it as a process of
de-conditioning, and re-patterning.  The conviction comes from
experience, testing ideas and validating them for yourself.

As to whether it ever becomes okay to turn against humanity,
I believe not.  We have become too interdependent.  As a species,
we now have the capacity to destroy our own life support system.
This means our survival depends on meeting each others basic
needs.

  "The Age of Nations is past.  The task before us now, if we would not
   perish, is to shake off our ancient prejudices, and to build the earth."
                                            Pierre Teilhard de Chardin, 1936

  "Once a photograph of the earth, taken from the outside, is available...
   a new idea as powerful as any in history will let loose."
                                            Sir Fred Hoyle, 1948

  "We wish to emphasize the importance of the newly discovered truth that
   it is no longer possible to settle international disputes by force of arms.
   Our awareness of the realities of the present-day world has led us to that
   conclusion....  I recall the words you once spoke, Mr. President, and I
   quote: 'The only way to resolve differences is to understand them.'  How
   very true.  Let me just add that seeking to resolve differences should not
   mean an end to being different.  The diversity of the world is a powerful
   well-spring of mutual enrichment, both spiritual and material."
                                          Mikhail Gorbachev, May 1988

I believe this is the fundamental reality behind the changes now occuring
in Eastern Europe.  Our attitude, and the principles we adopt are critical.

- Peter

RE: .2 FENNEL::GODIN "FEMINIST - and proud of it!"

There is a big difference between people in this country voting for what they
believe in, even if it is not always the right thing, and people informing on
other people out of fear, or for some ilicit gain for themselves.  Likewise
the citizens in Boston are not being threatened into informing on drug pushers,
now do they gain selfishly from informing.

I too feel pity for the collaborator, yet I hope that in their shoes I would
act differently.

I'll restain myself from jumping down your other ratholes...

RE: .7 TINCUP::KOLBE "The dilettante debutante"

Without Evil there could be no Good?  I'm not sure I agree with that.  It's
a topic in itself.  In any case, I don't think that me being nice to someone
necessitates someone else being mean.

However, I do believe that there must be some neutral standard of indifference
from which good and evil are measured.  For instance, if I hold the door for
someone with their arms full I am being nice; if I just watch them I am neither
being nice, or mean; if I trip them I am being mean. 

Somehow a lot of people assume that if you are not being nice, then you must
be being mean... they have no neutral standard.

Jim.