Conference quark::human_relations-v1

    I offer my humble opinion... suicide is for the weak...an easy way out
    but...is there a reason, important enough to die for?  We have a
    purpose in this life and that purpose is certainly not suicide...we
    have to struggle to find our purpose in life and the best way is to try
    hard, to be creative, to fight misfortunes, and to understand.  What is
    fear? we fear the unknown...but if we dig into it, it no longer is
    unkown and so fear dissapears... maybe I can't explain it too well, but
    the more I think in your question...the more I doubt that the reasons a
    college student might have are important enough to seek death...I see
    it as a sign of inmaturity. It is hard to be away from parents, family,
    friends and familiar surroundings and still feel fine, they need
    support, and time to adjust to be on their own...with maturity comes
    understanding, acceptance, and with that... there is no room for
    suicide.  I would encourage kids to talk, share their feelings, open
    up. We are all humans, subject to strong feelings regardless of age, we
    only have to learn to understand and GUIDE, those feelings... Without
    feelings we would be robots... not humans.  Thanks God for our
    feelings! They have a right to those feelings, they only have to make
    them possitive, not negative.  Life is wonderfull, the only problem is
    that we keep on trying to mess it up...

    In regards to .1 where "I doubt that the reasons a college student
    might have are important enough to seek death..I see it as a sign
    of immaturity."
    
    Isn't that a little too harsh?  Let's dismiss their problems all
    together.  That is the problem with this society:  We don't treat
    other people's problems as problems unless we have them ourselves.
    Some people react differently to the same problems, so by saying
    that you were capable of handling every college student's problem
    when you were a college student is irrelevant.  Each person feels
    that they are alone in the situation.  
    
    I guess the best bit of advise that I can give to the question is
    just to tell them that they are not alone.  That they're not the
    only ones who have this specific problem.  
    
    Maybe you and your wife should take a counseling or suicide course.
    
    

    I remember seeing a talk by Dr. Clayton Barbeau who is a family
    therapist.  He brought up the topic of suicide and he said it's OK to
    think about suicide as long as you realize it is not a solution.  I
    always thought that was good advice because I think sometimes people
    who think about suicide just feel worse because they start to feel
    guilty about considering the idea.  Sort of, "I'm depressed.  Maybe I
    should commit suicide.  I must really be crazy now that I've thought
    about killing myself."  It's not so crazy to think about it, but
    suicide is never a solution to life's problems.
    
    Another thought I had was when someone considers suicide, ask them to
    imagine their funeral and make a mental (or written) list of all the
    people who attended.  Now if no one cared about you, why would they all
    come to your funeral?  I think this work especially well for people who
    have strong family ties and who know it but have let the stress of
    college life drown out all the positive aspects of life.
    
    Just a couple of thoughts...
    
    						John

    
    Hi,
    
    	I just HAD to respond to this one.  First of all .1 - suicide
    *IS NOT* the "easy way out."  It takes a lot of courage to go through
    with something like that.  In fact, most people who end up actually
    taking their lives are, unfortunately, very intellegent, however
    at the time depressed, people.  Depression can be caused from an
    outside influence.  Things not going right, divorce, ect...  However,
    some people are more susceptible to depression than others.  And,
    yes, the holidays are for A LOT of people a very depressing time
    of year.
    
    	I think the most important thing that can be done is to do what
    you're already doing.  Talking.  If a student, however, actually
    says they've planned how they're going to commit suicide, get him/her
    help IMMEDIATELY!  As someone else said, it's okay to think about
    it.  It's natural to try to find a way out when life seems too much
    to handle.  But when there is an actual plan going on, then it's
    time to do something about it.
    
    	Otherwise, just let those kids know that although things seem
    really tough right now, it WILL get better.  They'll probably say
    "yea, sure" but at least it'll give them something to think about.
    Get them to focus on the future.  Not the present.
    
    	Also, let them know they are important - to themselves and to
    you and their families.
    
    	Well, that's my $.02.
    
    jean

    Well, I guess I'll admit it even though .1 will think less of me.
    I've had several periods in my life when I considered suicide very
    seriously. Twice I got as far as actually planning what to do
    and setting everything up. Once I got as far as taking enough booze
    and pills to get very sick but stopped short (luckily) of taking
    enough to die when some piece of reason started screaming through my
    depression and stopped me. 

    I've completed many things and have a number of accomplishments to
    my name, that isn't the issue at all. It's more a sense of feeling
    completely alone in the world and not being able to see a better
    future because your vision is clouded by personal events and the big
    picture is too distant to see. 

    What makes you stop? Thinking about the real consequences of what
    you are doing. Who will be suffering because you did this. Maybe
    even just thinking about seeing tomorrow and wondering if the sun
    will be beautiful. Since I was in college off and on at the time I
    was going through this (my early 20s)I can feel a special empathy
    for those kids. There is something frightening about finally seeing
    the "real" world after growing up in protected middle class America.

    If they say they will do it, get them immediately to some help. It's
    a false notion that those who talk don't do. If it's not at that
    stage yet perhaps getting a group together to just talk would help.
    Sometimes just being able to discuss it brings a better perspective
    on life. Most of all they need to feel they are not alone and that
    others feel the same pain and that things can get better. Getting
    them out for a walk & talk might be very beneficial. Physical
    exercise can often lift one up from depression and giving the body
    something to do works off some of the pent up emotion. liesl

    Hmmm, sounds a lot like sophomore year in college.  I'd very seriously
    contemplated committing suicide for several months, although not
    because I was severely depressed.  It was more one of those
    introspective stages where you wonder if there's any way you can make a
    significant difference and everything's so screwed up anyway so why
    bother...  On second thought, that could be one of the signs of being
    seriously depressed.
    
    After several months pondering it, I decided that it was a viable and
    intelligent option.  After coming to that realization, I then had to
    figure out the natty details of "how" and "when."  I decided that just
    rushing into it wasn't smart, since there's always the chance I'd come
    to a faulty decision.  So I wrote up an entry in my journal saying I was
    going to "do it" and the date would be one year in the future.  At that
    time I could decide if things had changed enough to make me reconsider. 
    If I wasn't totally convinced this was absolutely the right thing to
    do, then I'd reschedule the date for another year hence or just retire
    the idea completely.
    
    What was really interesting is that after I'd finally come to grips
    with myself over this, it was as if a great weight had been lifted from
    my shoulders.  It wasn't an "immediate" problem anymore, and I didn't
    think about it again for several months.  Whenever I got depressed or
    wondered about it, it was always in the context of "I'll worry about it
    in October."
    
    October rolled around and I wasn't as positive anymore that it was the
    "right" thing to do.  So instead of putting it off, I decided that if I
    had doubts, then it mustn't be a smart alternative and haven't looked
    back since.

    I've found procrastination, ineptitude, and physical cowardice to be
    useful preventions.  Distraction is the only sure-fire one and you need
    other people around for that.
    
    Frankly, when I was in my most depressive periods (while a sophomore in
    college and after my separation), none of the usual arguments came
    close to convincing me - I was too good at shooting 'em down.  If the
    sun will be beautiful tomorrow morning, it'll be that much more
    beautiful without me blocking it, etc.  I can think of some brilliant
    life-affirming writing (for rockers, Lester Bangs's no-BS eulogy of
    Peter Laughner might be appropriate) but you have to be willing to meet
    it halfway for it to have any effect.
    
    The similar note in PHILOSOPHY was swamped with "it's weak, it's
    cowardly, how could anyone be such a scum?" replies.  I hope that we
    can remain supportive here - anyone considering suicide does not have
    to be told that they're weak, cowardly scum.  I noticed that the most
    vehemently hostile reactions come from those who have had a friend
    commit suicide.  Perhaps something about that experience teaches one
    that life _does_ matter, but in such a forceful way that it can't be
    communicated?
    
    Ray

    At least in some cases:
    
    1) Suicide is seen as the only possible way out of an 
       Impossible Situation.
    
    2) Suicide is NOT the result of an entirely rational decision.
       The person is NOT thinking clearly.  Their decisions are
       clouded with fear, frustration, and a great deal of Pain.
    
    3) Suicide can be brought about by a person being forced (at least
       in their perception) to deal with more pressure than they can
       cope with.
    
    You might:
    
    1) Help them discover or show them alternative solutions to 
       their problem.
    
    2) Point out that the consequences of their not being able to cope with
       the pressure (or whatever) are probably not life-threatening nor 
       life-ruining.
       In 10 years will it really matter if you can't do this now?  If you
       just stop trying to deal with this, and get some rest-and-relaxation
       for a while, what is the worst or the best that can happen?
       If they're feeling pressured, the quickest way to turn them off to
       your help is to apply more pressure.  Don't say, "Just force
       yourself to do ...."
    
    College students probably feel that they have to succeed in college
    NOW.  So, what are the alternatives?  Get help from the school
    psychologist to get incompletes.  Take a leave of absence.  Come back
    later.  Drop out and do nothing for a while.  Get a job and go to 
    school nights.  There are LOTS of alternatives.  It doesn't all have
    to be done NOW, and letting things slide when the pressure gets too
    much will not ruin your life - it CAN save your sanity.  Don't pressure
    yourself!  And once the pressure is off, you can usually catch your breath
    and resume what you want to accomplish.  Your mental health is much
    more important than even your parents' opinion of how you're handling
    your life.
    
    Best of luck to those who are dealing with something very
    difficult/unpleasant, from someone who has already been through it
    and survived.  I would offer to do whatever I can to help anyone
    anytime who finds this note hits home.
    
    Best wishes,
    Paula
    

I'm going to be the third person to use the phrase "sophomore year" in 
this stream.  It had been a bad semester; I'd been going through sophomore 
slump, part 1, I was sick and had just come out of the infirmary, my SO 
was in the process of breaking up with me (and I was in the process of
figuring out what was going on), I was facing the prospect of failing one 
of my classes, and for some reason all food had been nauseating me.  I'd 
lost 25-30 lbs in the past month without trying at all, and by December I 
was panicking as I watched my body waste away beyond my control.  I felt 
my life was wasting away in much the same way, and simply didn't feel up 
to the enormous task of turning it around.

I'd been mulling the idea of suicide around in my head off and on for 
quite a while, usually dismissing it as irrational.  I'd even decided on 
what I thought would be the most painless and accessible way to go.  One 
night I got the chance to spend several hours by myself thinking and 
realized that I couldn't find anything to live for, and that no, it wasn't 
an irrational idea at all.  

This is how I came to be sitting on my dorm room floor with a candle on a 
plate in front of me and a dishpan of water and a pile of my journals next 
to me (the candle for the pages in ballpoint, the water to blur those in 
felt-tip.)  I didn't have any of the "appointed materials" in the room at 
the time, but I figured I could get them the next day, or borrow from the 
neighbors if they were still up when I got done with the journals.  I had 
just lit the candle when the door opened and my roommate walked in.  3AM.  
What could I do? -- I went to bed.

I woke up the next morning to the thought "Sh!t.  I'm still alive." Then
I remembered what had happened, and glumly went about the business of the
day.  I don't remember the exact reasoning surrounding my decision not
to go get my "appointed materials", but it didn't have anything to do
with a desire to live, I can assure you.  I resigned myself to being stuck
alive for the next month (I couldn't kill myself at home -- there were
always other people in the house, and they might find me and "save" me,
and -- my worst fear -- what if I had to live the rest of my life as a
half-vegetable?)  OK, I figured,  I might as well start working to make my
life bearable, since I couldn't stand living it as it was, and I had nothing
else to do over break anyway.

I remember that break as a period of frenetic regeneration.  I returned
for sophomore slump, part 2, no less mixed up, but by then I'd made
enough changes to consider my life sufficiently worthwhile to keep 
living, at least on a trial basis.  About six months later I started 
using ballpoint in my journal again.  Since then there's been no need 
to look back.

My advice to Curt and Barb for their students?  Well, if they're 
_talking_ about suicide, it means they're looking for other answers.  
Help them to see options and break down barriers they may have erected 
around themselves.  Encourage them to seek extensions on their work if 
necessary.  If you can get them to see things in perspective, I think 
the battle is probably won.  Above all, take what they're saying seriously.  
If they stop talking or start discussing exact tactics, it may be time to 
worry.

[ An aside, to .1:  So what if suicide is immature or "the easy way 
out"?  Just because someone's problems were trivial is not going to snap 
them back to life once they're dead! ]

	The problem of suicide as our population grows older is increasing.
	There was  program recently on 60 Minutes about how many older
	people who are very sick and have no hope of recovery want to kill
	themselves. These seemed like just typical people who lead normal
	productive lives but now see only pain and hopelessness. It was
	plan scary. How do I know that I wont find myself in the smae situation.
	How can one want to live as a vegatble or a burden on perhaps someone 
	else. How does one go if all the things they work for are being
	depleted by medical bills even though you steadily  grow worse.
	There was discusion of having laws that allow one to take ones own
	life. I can see why they wanted to end it.

    RE: .1
    
    
    >I offer my humble opinion... suicide is for the weak...an easy way out
    >but...is there a reason, important enough to die for?  We have a
    >purpose in this life and that purpose is certainly not suicide...we
    >have to struggle to find our purpose in life and the best way is to try
    >hard, to be creative, to fight misfortunes, and to understand.  
    
    I find your attitude offensive. First off, you obviously have never
    felt so much dispair that you saw death as a blessing instead of the
    end of life. I was an abused child who spent many nights praying that I
    wouldn't wake up the next day, not because I was weak but because my
    face was still reeling from being held down and my cheekbones broken
    with an ashtray..or beaten so bad I couldn't walk. I have been beaten
    so often that I have permenant damage. I do not think that suicide is 
    a solution, but understand that, for some, it is seen as an escape from
    hell. We all have a 'will to live' until someone comes along and
    crushes that will to a point where it simply doesn't exist anymore.
    
    >What is fear? 
    
    Fear, my friend, is waking up knowing that today, like every other day,
    will be hell on this earth.
    
    How did I survive??? I used drugs and my own violence towards
    others. 
    
    >we fear the unknown...but if we dig into it, it no longer is
    >unkown and so fear dissapears... 
    
    This is not necessarily the answer. I knew what to fear...I just
    couldn't stop it. 
    
>    college student might have are important enough to seek death...I see
>    it as a sign of inmaturity. It is hard to be away from parents, family,
>    friends and familiar surroundings and still feel fine, they need
>    support, and time to adjust to be on their own...with maturity comes
>    understanding, acceptance, and with that... there is no room for
>    suicide.  
    
    Depression can also be a chemical imbalance. You obviously haven't a 
    clue as to what they are feeling.
    
    
>Thanks God for our
 >   feelings! They have a right to those feelings, they only have to make
  >  them possitive, not negative.  Life is wonderfull, the only problem is
  >  that we keep on trying to mess it up...
    
    Try using some feelings like, oh...compassion, understanding,
    sensitivity. Your 'get with the program' lacks all of that and more.
    
    
    rick

I want to add a little to this point, perhaps it could help.

In my "spare" time I work, and have done for about 18 years, for an
agency in the UK who's main purpose is to 'befriend the suicidal'.

Through all those years I have spoken to many folk who feel so bad they
want to die. My first comment is they are all different! So recipe book
answers aren't much use. However, my advice is listening is the only way
to change anything. Listen to the folk who feel bad, hear what they say and
most of all prove that by feedback and care. Show them YOU care and there
is some chance. 

No ones values are exactly the same, I know a young girl who killed herself
because her goldfish died and left her alone. Take everything seriously it
matters to the person who feels bad even if it seems trivial.

I could go on, but I can get boring. If I can say more then let me know.

Love ...Trevor

    re .13
    
    	Trevor, if ever someone needed to be _heard_ its the ones who
    feel that life has no value. Its people like .1 who actually contribute
    to the problem by insinuating that there must be something wrong with
    them, that they are weak. Often times suicide is a final cry out for
    help. Keep up the good work. Maybe someday you will see the fruits of
    your work. Compassion is a prized commodity in these days of
    self-centered attitudes.
    
    
    Rick

    There's only one time that I seriously thought of suicide. Actually,
    it was more like half-serious. It was close to 20 years ago. It
    was due to a broken relationship (why this should've made me
    suicidal has a lot to do with my self-image at the time). Back then,
    I worked in a fast food shop, and one day, while I was working at
    the grill, I stopped short, became aware that I was holding a large,
    sharp knife, and briefly contemplated slitting my wrist open. It
    wasn't a decision that I came to after a long period of thought;
    it was an idea that just popped into my head.
    
    The main reason I didn't was simply because I didn't have the courage
    to go through with it. Ever since then, when I've thought about
    it, I realize that there are things to be said for cowardice.
    
    --- jerry

    I just found out last night that the 18 year old son of a longtime
    friend committed suicide.  He WAS away at school.  I know that the 
    boy's parents are devastated, especially that they didn't have a clue 
    that their child was considering this.  
    
    I am devastated by this,too.  I have a 17 year old son who will soon 
    be going off to school,too.
    
    My God, I never realized that college students had it so rough.  I
    never lived away at school or away from my parents at that age.
    I'd like to thank everyone who shared their experience here.  Perhaps
    I'll now have the chance to be a more aware "remote" parent when my
    son goes away to school.  I know I will be sending letters and making 
    calls, much more than I probably would have before reading this.
    
    My question:  What can a parent do when they do not see their child
    from day to day, when the child is off at school?  They may not be
    able to hear the comments of the child who is contemplating this.  
    I would like to think that if a child is in this category, someone would 
    notify the parents, but then again the child may not want to open up if 
    they feel the parents will be told.  I keep thinking (and the boy's 
    parents do too) that "If only we knew", "just maybe we could have done 
    something to prevent it". Should the parents be told?
    
    Thank you very much.
    
    -Beth.

    I'm one of the folks who has never even considered suicide, but I know
    a couple of people who have attempted, and a couple of people who have
    succeeded
    
    As for what you can do for your children.  Talk to them.  Tell them
    that no matter what's wrong, no matter how badly they think they've
    screwed up, no matter how awful things are, they can call you.  And
    when they do call you, be there for them.  No matter how badly they've
    screwed up, save the lectures for later.
    
    That's esentially what my father said to me when I left for college 11
    years ago.  He made sure I had a credit card in my name so I could come
    home at the drop of a hat if I needed to.  My parents called every
    weekend my Freshman year.  It was annoying as much as it was
    supportive, and only in retrospect, did I really appreciate it.
    
    Even now, going through one of my worst years in recent memory, I can't
    imagine suicide as a solution.  It doesn't mean I won't change my view
    some time.  To those of you who have considered it, power for fighting
    it.
    						--Doug

<    My question:  What can a parent do when they do not see their child
<    from day to day, when the child is off at school?  They may not be
<    able to hear the comments of the child who is contemplating this.  
    
        Beth, I can only speak from my personal experience but here
    goes. During the first half of my freshman year I had what amounted
    to a nervous breakdown. I wasn't prepared at all the for the rather
    cut-throat competition that music majors sometimes engaged in and I
    was harassed by the orchestra condcutor who kept asking me out and
    who, in effect, controlled my life as a musician.

    One night I just lost it and called my parents. I was crying and
    extremely upset. What happened was that my mom couldn't deal with it
    and ever since I have NEVER felt I could let her know how I really
    felt because I was afraid she'd lose it. My mom lives with me now
    because she can't live alone and even in the emotional upset I've
    had over the last several months I have left the house or hidden in
    my room when the tears overcame me because I can not let her know
    I'm in pain.

    If your child calls for help don't make them have to take care of
    you. liesl

	I want to thank all of you for replying to my base note. Your comments/
advise/info have added a wealth of knowledge to my life.

	Before I go on, I want to warn you, this my run on a bit. If you
are not up for ramblings, feel free to hit next unseen ;] .


I first want to reply to re:1
	From the notes following yours, I think many disagree with your 
thoughts. I hate to say it, but I also have a few comments also in regards to 
yours. But before I do, I would like to hear more of your thoughts. Many of the 
student's parents feel as you do, and I would like to understand. So please
write more.

	<suicide is for the weak>
I do not agree with this statement. If you had said "Persons in a weak frame of 
mind are prone to contemplating suicide", I would tend to agree. We all go 
through periods of weakness, vulnerability, sorrow, etc. Each of us deal with 
those feelings in different ways. I do not feel it is only the weak that think 
about suicide. Many with emotional problems do. Also drugs can be involved. The 
list goes on. I do not think we can clump all the people together and say they 
are weak. It runs much deeper than that.

<it is a sign of immaturity>
	I have been working with this school for several years now. I deal with 
these students in many ways. Over this period of time, I do not feel those that 
have contemplated suicide are immature. The reasons they do, range from rape,
incest, brutal beatings, abuse, betrayal, immense sorrow, but never immaturity.
These Young adults have put up with a living hell that I doubt I would ever
have been able to endure. What I have seen is not a student waking up one 
morning and thinking about suicide, only because she is having a rotten day. 
Instead, I see someone who has been putting up with (sometime upward of)
18 years of despair. 

	It does not surprise me they are despairing. If you could only hear some 
of the stories that we have heard. Parents that do not know their kids exist.
Parents that send the kid to school, only because it will get them out of the 
house. 

	.....and that brings me to the last reply I read... If you want advise,
I will share a bit with you.  First of all, you can do a lot. The best thing you 
can possible do is be open with your kids. Let them know you will always be 
there, and support them. You have to make them understand that you will be 
supportive, even if you do not agree with them, or their decisions. Let them 
know they have someone to turn to at all times.

	Our door is open for each student. It is amazing the trust we have built 
up with so many of them. I can not count the nights that Barb and myself have 
gone to work without getting any sleep, because we were up with one of the 
students. One of the girls (A couple weeks ago) left our house, giving both of 
us a hug, through many tears, saying "you know, I can not understand why I had 
to go through 18 years of my life not knowing what it was like to have parents
that care enough to listen, and feel enough to share" That statement will go 
with me through my life. But it is typical of what they go through. Most do not 
feel there is anyone out there for them.

	Cripe! I could go on forever..... **Stop me please! :) **
	
curt

    re .17:
    
    The children need to know that their parents will listen, and will not
    criticize.  If the child is depressed and says "I can't..." BELIEVE
    them.  Sometimes people really CANNOT do things they could do under
    normal circumstances.  Don't try to force them or tell them they can -
    there's time enough to postpone success for a while.  These kids need
    unconditional support, not criticism.  Parents should accept their
    child's feelings, even if they don't understand them.  And above all
    remain supportive.
    
    P.

    My thanks to all of you who have replied to this note.  You helped
    me (all unknowing) last night.  My 16-year old (high school junior)
    asked why he shouldn't just kill himself, and get all the doubt
    and confusion out of the way.  Because of this note, I didn't flip,
    but instead went into 'support-mode'.  Basically, he needed someone
    to really listen to his fears.  He's in all honors classes, but only
    getting C's, and thinks this means he will 'fail' because he won't
    get into a good college.  He still has no firm sense of 'what I
    want to do when I grow up', so he has 'failed' by not having a sense
    of direction.  My plans for the weekend changed radically at about
    midnight last night - he gets my time.  I used some of the examples
    from here to reassure him that there are *many* paths to success
    in life, not the single one he saw.  I reassured him that success
    does not have to be academic/business oriented.
    
    This incident surprised me, because he is regarded by me, his class
    mates, his coaches and his teachers as one of the most stable,
    insightful, and capable young people we know.  Truly, I think his
    problem is one of too many choices.  I reassured him of my love, 
    regardless of the path he takes from here.  The immediate crisis
    is past, and I do not believe it was a serious to_be_acted_on_this_
    week statement.  But it was a plea for help and attention.
    
    Again, my thanks.   Alison

    I would like to put my .02 cents in.  I have many of time thought
    of killing myself and it is because I have no self worth for myself.
     I feel everyone would be better of if I was not around.  The only
    thing that keeps me going is my 4year old daughter.  She does not
    deserve to handed over to someone that does not love her.  I love
    her very much, but I do feel that someone else could raise her better.
    
    I know that I have alot of problems, and I am trying to work them
    out but sometime it seems the best solution is to die.  I question
    myself and say that this is the cowards way out, but when you been
    trying to work at this for so long and you do not see any changes
    why keep trying, and suffer more.
    
    What I have found in talking to people is that I can not open up
    and be totally honest to people because people usually do not want
    to hear about you wanting to die, so I just shut up.  
    
    I do not want anyone pity or for them to feel sorry for me.  I just
    have to say that I am lucky for my daughter, but I do not want to
    depend on her, either.
    
    Oh well, I guess I put in more than .02 cents.

    re .22:  
    
    Regarding your son's feelings about not knowing what he wants to do -
    there are a lot of people who think they know what they want to do when
    they're in high school, and then get to college and change mid-stream.
    And there are some who get out of college with the degree of their
    choice, and find it's an area with little opportunity or low salary, so
    they change fields to something more lucrative.  You don't have to make
    up your mind at 16 what you want to do for the rest of your life.  At
    16 I *knew* I wanted to be a biologist specializing in genetics
    research.  In my first semester of college, I found all the
    photographs of chromosomes we were supposed to match up looked alike. 
    I didn't *care* when the vagus nerve developed in a hamster fetus.
    My second semester I got an F in biology.  My third semester I dropped
    out.  Eventually I went back to school, got a job as a programmer
    without a degree (though it's within reach by now), and probably have
    a chance at a much wider range of possibilities and higher salary than
    if I had stayed with biology.  I can still read about biology if it 
    interests me in my free time, someday I could go for a biology degree,
    change careers, whatever.  It's never too late to change your mind
    about what you want to do.  (Unless you actually commit suicide.)
    
    Also, as was brought up in the note about college (whether to pay for
    your childrens' college education), once you're out in the real world
    in most cases it doesn't seem to matter what college you went to,
    unless you're going to law school or med school.  What matters is that
    you have a degree.  Where it's from may be impressive, but it usually
    doesn't really matter, especially once you have some work experience.
    Then it seems no-one really cares where you went to school.  I hope
    your son doesn't worry too much about getting C's in honors courses.
    They'll be a good foundation for college courses.  What really matters
    over time is whether you're learning what you want to learn.
    
    One thing I wanted to mention that can be rather traumatic for college
    students.  In high school it may be fairly easy to get good grades.
    You may be near the top of your class.  Your teachers monitor your
    progress.  In college you're with all those other kids who were at the
    top of their class in high school, so you're standing may drop from
    way above average to average, or from average to below average.  That's
    hard to cope with.  How are parents going to accept that, after telling
    you what good grades you need to get into college?  And the prof's
    don't usually seem to give a dam* about how you do or how your grades
    are.  They'd rather be working on a research project than standing at
    the front of some classroom.  You're all on your own.  How do you deal
    with this feeling all at once of "I'm not as good as I used to be",
    "nobody cares", and "what will my parents think?"  Pretty overwhelming.
    And that's not even taking into account any of the social pressures. 
    
    re .23:  I think a child is the best thing that can keep you going.
             How about some counselling help with EAP?
             Good luck! 
    
    Paula

         A very close friend once told me that she had attempted suicide
    while she was in 10th grade (five years before our conversation).  The 
    thing that disturbed me the most was that she was one of the most stable 
    and wise people I knew.  Being born with one of the most intense survival 
    ethics on earth, suicide has always been something alien to my thoughts.  
    Hearing her discuss what went through her mind was chilling.  Her 
    conversation seemed to be devoid of specific complaints, but filled with 
    an overwhelming sense that suicide might have been relief for her.  She 
    actually went through with swallowing a variety of pills in her parents' 
    medicine chest.  She went through a night of writhing pain and a lot of 
    heavy thought about her situation.  Still alive after the chemical storm 
    had passed, she had the chance to actually experience what a suicide 
    attempt feels like and tell the story.  I have never listened so completely 
    to anyone in my life.
    
         She seemed to have truly thought that she was dying as she
    struggled through the night and into the next day.  I got the impression 
    that the physical pain was not the greatest thing she regretted.  She
    said that the worst part was that she had changed her mind, but thought
    that death was inevitable albeit slow in coming. I don't think she would 
    ever consider the act again.
    
                                           Greg  

    I'm still not sure I want to reply to this topic, but after reading
    the first reply (.1 by Ana Mahoney) I feel that something is being
    missed.
    
    I'll try to avoid 'generalizations' and keep my response personal...
    
    As a young child all I recall is pain. No one was there to care
    for me. Why was I in this home where I wasn't wanted ? What did
    I do to deserve this punishment ?
    
    At a very young age those closest to you are looked at to provide
    love, and all other necessities required to live and grow.
    I know this now by being an Uncle and seeing it firsthand in my
    nephews.
    
    Add to this, drugs and alcohol
    Add peer pressure, which is Larger than Life when you are a kid
    Add Education, and more people who don't have time for you
    
    Who do you reach out to ?  Who can you talk to ?  Who will listen,
    then who will believe you ?
    
    By the time I was 12 I wanted to ...
    But I didn't attempt it until I was 14. If it wouldn't had been
    for some people who were stunned as me, I would have ...
    
    Anyway, my point is that kids need to know that they count
    and they need to know that they can talk to people.
    Parents wonder why their kids don't talk to them, well if they
    wouldn't yell, scream and holler...if they'd show real/genuine
    concern their kids might feel some worth and talk
    
    Sorry Ana Mahoney, but your reply asks children to "try hard,
    fight misfortunes, be creative, and understand". Children are
    brought into the world without this ability...Things need to be
    taught and without shelter from fears and pain, I guess
    more kids will by your definition...be "weak"
    
    The fact that I'm here today talking about this is a pretty
    good indication that I've managed to weather the storms of life
    Well, no credit to me....I was fortunate enough to have
    some lovable people express genuine interest in my life which
    helped me in many ways....mostly by giving me a place to grow,
    learn, share my opinion/concerns and get feedback and guidance
    
    Not all kids are going to be so fortunate
    I hope I gave the base noter something of an answer, and I
    think you and your wife are doing a good thing by making yourselves
    available to those kids
    
    Christopher

    re .22
    	How is your son doing? Re-reading your note has sparked much
    inside of me.
    
     Last night We had three of the students come in....
    They expressed concern over yet another student talking about suicide.
    After they left, Barb and I sat down on the couch. (I had talked
    this same student the other day and reaffirmed our concern for her.
    I knew how low she was, but I also knew she was not ready to talk.
    I left her, telling her we were here at all times for her, and she
    need only knock when she was ready.) *But back to the story**.
    Barb looked so worn out. If I could have taken away the pain she
    was feeling, I would have done anything. She said, "this is the hardest
    thing in the world for me to deal with. Give me anything else, but
    not suicide." (Not her exact words, but the message was the same
    :] ) She asked for my advise, and I told her it was simple. All
    the student (I will call her Joan).All joan needed was confirmation
    that we cared. Barb took a walk upstairs, and talked to her. The
    conversation did not even go into the issue of suicide. They talked
    and Barb asked her to come down on Monday night to talk in privacy.
    When she left Joan was much better. I am not sure what I am getting
    at here, other than saying it is so important to just let them know
    we are there for them. Let them talk when they are ready, but let
    them know your are open at all times. 
    
    	
    Re 23
    	What you feel is not much different than others. If there is
    anything I can do, please let me know. DTN:285-2304. I think I can
    understand how you feel, but I would like to also say it is not
    neccesarily true. Some people do not want to talk about suicide,
    granted. It is a hard subject, and most people have no idea what
    to say to a person that bridges the topic. I think if you learned
    to open up to people more, you would find them willing to listen.
    I tell the students that they should feel comfortable enough to
    walk into our apartment and say "Hey I need to talk. Can everyone
    leave so I can get this out". I also feel people should be able
    to say. "I am hurting, and I need help. Please listen/talk with
    me". 
         Look at your self. Are you sure the reason you do not talk
    to people about suicide is because they will not listen, or could
    it be that you are embarrassed, or feeling a bit guilty? I think
    if you came to grips with yourself, you would be able to open up
    more. Another avenue is to seek professional help. I really do believe
    in them. (I know when I went through an extremely hard time, my
    counselor was who pulled me through). And a last statement on this
    subject. Please write more. You thoughts are important. Either write
    them here, or through e-mail.
    
    and lastly  re 26
    	What you just wrote explained so many of these student's lives.
    I could have tried to explain them, but never could I have done
    it justice. I hope you are doing ok. I would also love to hear more
    from you if you did not feel to uncomfortable talking about it.   
    How did you deal with those emotions? How do you deal with them
    now? 

    Sorry this note rambled too.... thanks for all.
    
    curt

    re -1
    
    Thanks for the concern.  All appears now to be 'back on track'.
    He needed to know that I could/would pay attention to him and take
    him seriously.  (Life at our house had been pretty crazy for about
    a month, with little time for more than "Where do you have to be
    when" levels of conversation.  No shared meals, really ships passing
    in the night.)  He was also reassured that I would help him in talking
    with his Dad (my ex) about some of these issues.  Dad can be pretty
    intimidating and convinced that there is only *one* right way to
    accomplish anything.  
    
    It helped that he got his learner's permit on Monday afternoon and I 
    took him out for driving time *immediately*.  He's the only kid in 
    his class that has to do his learning with a standard transmission,
    so that's a real accomplishment he can point to with some pride.
    
    Alison 

"I noticed that the most vehemently hostile reactions come from those who have
had a friend commit suicide.  Perhaps something about that experience teaches
one that life _does_ matter, but in such a forceful way that it can't be
communicated?"

The experience of having a friend commit suicide does not teach one that life
matters.  The hostile reaction comes from the feeling of being betrayed,
and the loss of the death of the friend.

College is a tough time....  It's too bad that society uses college to weed out
people and limit the number of people in certain professions.  College is harder
then it needs to be. 

Whenever I feel depressed, a looong walk in the woods at night usually helped.
Maybe lie down in a snowbank for a while somewhere and look up at the stars or
the clouds, or the snow falling.  Listen to the quiet and get away from all the
distractions and let peace come into your mind.  Sometimes, I used to think that
I would keep walking and not come back, or walk untill I died, but eventually
maybe ten miles later, I'd head back albeit by a different route always. 

Jim. 

    The following topic is from a noter who wishes to remain anonymous.  To
    contact the author by mail, please send your message to RAINBO::CANNOY
    specifying the conference name and note number. I will forward your
    message with your name attached unless you request otherwise.

    
    This is what it's like.

    I think about this a lot, all the time sometimes, like now.

    The pain is just too much, sometimes it hurts to feel my heart still
    beating. Sometimes my heart just feels like it will really physically
    break and fall out of my chest. It hurts to breath.

    All I can see is blackness, emptiness, loneliness ahead of me. I wonder
    to myself why I should bother to turn off the car as I close the garage
    door. I can't care about anything that happens to me. What would happen
    if I drove into that concrete bridge embankment? I can't think about
    anything that requires concentration or pulling thoughts together.

    I can't fall asleep at night and don't want to wake up in the morning.
    I want to go to sleep and never wake up. All that keeps me moving is
    inertia. I'm scared of everything. Christmas is going to be hell,
    because no one knows I feel this way.
                                                                      
    I don't feel there's anyone I can turn to, I can't trust anyone enough
    to let them close to me. I've been hurt too much and too deeply. I'm
    worthless and shouldn't bother anyone with my feelings. No one cares. I
    don't see that I could even talk to a professional therapist, I simply
    can't let anyone that close to me.

    And you're likely to never know I feel this way, even if you know me.
    Unless I just can't go on any longer.

>    And you're likely to never know I feel this way, even if you know me.
>    Unless I just can't go on any longer.
    
    
    Quite enigmatic!  I mean, since you communicated it, I DO KNOW you
    feel this way.
    
    And your having shared it, although anonymously, is a great first step
    towards becoming more mentally healthy.
    
    What's your second step ?
    
    
    	/Eric

    Re: .30

    Why do you go on?  Because you need to!...  

    Even if life is so bad, that you can't see any way up, there is one..

    Christmas is going to hell you say? Then get up and go volunteer to
    work in a food kitchen, or a homeless shelter. There you will see that
    indeed life isn't as bad as you think it is.

    You left so much out of your note, except disparity...  I'd volunteer
    to listen, read, write, whatever, however, I doubt that you'd take
    anyone up on it right now... But there is someone who does care about
    you... 

    There are many people who feel and have felt like they have nothing to
    live for... take comfort in knowing that you are not alone in those
    thoughts.

    If you feel like there is no love in your life, then go volunteer to be
    a big brother or sister...  there will be more love there than you can
    possible handle...

    If you have no shelter, or food, contact a local church or synagogue -
    people there will care enough to get you both, if only temporary.

    If you have lost someone in your life through a death, and can't face
    life without them, then work with kids that have lost both sets of
    parents in an orphanage, or in a burn center, and watch people who
    want to live and struggle with it everyday, and take your strength from
    them.

    Above all else, live each day for a minute at a time, then a hour at a
    time, then a day at a time. Reward yourself with getting though one one
    day each day. 

    I can honestly say      IT DOES GET BETTER             although
    you might not see it now, life it just too precious to let it go.

    Please - call someone. anyone.

<    All I can see is blackness, emptiness, loneliness ahead of me. I wonder
<    to myself why I should bother to turn off the car as I close the garage
<    door. I can't care about anything that happens to me. What would happen
<    if I drove into that concrete bridge embankment? I can't think about
<    anything that requires concentration or pulling thoughts together.
    
        There is not much that I can say to change how you feel. But,
    you are not alone. Others of us have felt this way and it can pass
    and become part of the past. I'm not going to give you any crap about
    life being beautiful, lots of time it's not and lots of time it
    hurts. That doesn't mean it's not worth it. Despair and desperation
    are human emotions that happen to everyone. Some of us are more
    vulnerable to them than others but that doesn't mean we can't pull
    ourselves back up.

    Even though you may not feel like talking to someone you should. If
    for no other reason than a helping hand is sometimes necessary to
    pull us out of the pit. Maybe you need to be hospitalized to remove
    you from the grinding requirements of daily living so that you can
    take stock and regroup. There are other ways out besides death.
    Please use EAP and get help. Please send me mail if you want to talk
    to someone that knows first hand what this feels like. liesl

    
    Re All that have replied to this note. 
    	I want to thank each and everyone of you. I took it upon myself
    to share these replies (Stripped the heading so all of you were
    not known by name) with one of the students. *I previously mentioned
    her in a prior reply*. 
    	I have to say now, that each of you helped her in a way I could
    never have. By reading these replies, she was able to see that there
    are quite a bit more people out there that do have the same feelings.
    Though I do not believe the replies pulled her out of the depression
    she is in, it certainly has stabilized her thoughts. I thank you
    all for this. I think she will now be more receptive to communicating
    her feelings on a different level. 
    
    
    re.30
    	I want to add a bit about my personal past if I may. 
    
    	This is the time of year that has always been bad for me. Three
    experiences in my life have made it difficult to carry on. The first
    was a death of an extremely close freind just after Thanksgiving
    a few years ago. 2) The suicide of another very close freind at
    Christmas a few years ago, and 3) Thanksgiving day (also a few years
    ago) when my now ex-wife left me.
    
    	What you explained comes very close to my feelings at times.
    I did not feel. Actually, now when I look back at it, It scares
    the hell out of me. There is a large part of my life missing. (And
    I do mean missing). I lost a part of time, and I have no idea where
    it went. Everyday I carried on, but not because I wanted to. I really
    do not remember any part of it. I functioned. 
    	I remember one day waking up, and trying to remember the past
    couple months. There was nothing there. If someone had asked me
    what I had done the day before, I sriously could not answer them.
    That is when I knew I had to do something.
    	My family was always supportive. (I owe them my life) But they
    also knew they could only support. They were ther when I finally
    decided I needed them. My freinds disappeared. (This was my fault.
    I pushed everyone away) I was tired. I did not want to deal with
    anything. Actually, it was worse than that. I Could not deal with
    it.
    	So back to the story :]. I woke up and picked up the phone.
    I called a therapist. I have never been one to talk to people. I
    had a difficult time of it, but I knew it had to be done. I called
    an made an appointment. The first visit was hell. I had built up
    a wall so thick noone would ever penetrate it. 
    	But then the next couple visits changed me. I have to say right
    here that I think I owe my life to her. Suddenly everyhing came
    out. That changed my life..... I then called my sister, and for
    the first time in my life, actually talked. (And cried..etc....)
    	
	I guess I am just trying to say..... The is hope. You have to
    make the first step. You have to say "I do not want to feel this
    way, anymore". You have to reache out. Though you feel there is
    noone, I think you may just be missing them. Look around and talk.
    write in the notes file, or send mail. Call a therapist.

    
    But most important. Have faith in yourself.
    good luck.
    
    curt

>        I don't feel there's anyone I can turn to, I can't trust anyone enough
>    to let them close to me. I've been hurt too much and too deeply. I'm
>    worthless and shouldn't bother anyone with my feelings. No one cares. I
>    don't see that I could even talk to a professional therapist, I simply
>    can't let anyone that close to me.

    Because you were even inclined to write this entry, I believe that
    you are looking for help. If you feel that you can not walk into
    an EAP counselors office and say the above, won't you at least
    forward this message to one of the counselors?  You see, they do
    care, even when you don't. 
    
    The people of this conference care also. Did you know you could
    write or talk to almost anyone of us and we would be more that happy
    to listen.
    
    And one time or another we have all needed to reach out to others.
    We've felt despair or hopelessness in out lives. We've felt that
    no one cares. All it takes is a request for help, and you can get
    it. 

    As for not wanting to let a professional get close to you...All
    it takes is a few steps to their office. Sit down and talk with
    them. Keep the terms general if you want. They will help you as
    much as you let them.
    
    I second the suggestions of getting involved with people who are
    less fortunate than yourself, it is a way to feel valued
    
    Gail

    This is a note pointing to 920 in which I have entered material
    from the Samaritans in Boston concerning signs of depression and
    suicide and how to befriend somone who may have suicidal ideations.
    
    The SAmaritans are located at:
    
    	500 Commonwealth Avenue
    	Kenmoe Square
    	Boston, Ma 02215
    
    Their emergency number is 0247-0220 and it is available 24 hours
    a day.
    
    Ernie
    

    RE: .30
    
    Hi
    I hope that you've taken the opportunity to have a heart-to-heart
    conversation with someone who has expressed concern for you and
    your feelings 
    
    The gentleman who started this topic has listened to me and
    he and his wife listen to people all the time nowdays, try
    talking with him
    
    Reach Out ...  YOU ARE WORTH IT!!!
    
    signed,
    Been there

Is a Celebration of the birth of one who cared.  

Who cared enough to come to Earth,
and be born, live and die as a human being.

Who cared enough to die so that our sins may be forgiven.

Who cares about each sorrow and joy in each of our lives.

Who knocks at the door to our hearts, 
and asks us to make Him a part of our lives. 

Whether we take to step to open the door is our choice which we must take
responsibility for.

Jim.

    Re .30 (anonymous) and following replies
    
     In that state you can't go out and volunteer for a soup kitchen, or a
    Big Brother program, or drag yourself to a therapist... The will to do
    so is just not there. The words LIFE IS WORTH LIVING are just words. 
    All these notes of support are wonderful but they do not make the pain
    go away, and more often than not, the people around you do not
    understand what you are going through even when they are aware that
    something is wrong. Often, a cheery word of support just makes it sound
    like that person doesn't really understand what is wrong. I am not
    accusing anyone here of that. Depression robs you of any ability to
    help yourself and it does not go away until something or someone from
    the outside changes things, or a very long time passes. Another thing
    is that, when you are depressed, there is a tendency to want to stay
    depressed. It is perverse, but I have felt it and know what I am
    talking about. 
     As was mentioned earlier, sometimes knowing -- not hearing about, but
    *really knowing* -- that someone else is going through exactly the same
    thing that you are, can help. It is hard to do this without getting the
    impression that what you are enduring is being belittled. The purpose
    is to know that someone understands.
     							- Jim -

RE .30

There are lots of good and well meant replys for you...

None can take your pain. I am not going to say I understand, only you really
know how it is for you, so how can I. 

I do see it matters greatly to you, and that matters to me. 

I really would like to talk with you and say that your words make me care.
I hear the pain and want it to go, knowing I can't change the things that
hurt.

Just hear me say I really care even though I can only contact you through
this impersonal means. You don't have to belive me, but its there anyway.

Love ... Trevor

(That number for the Boston Sams is a very good one...)

    The following reply is from a noter who wishes to remain anonymous.  To
    contact the author by mail, please send your message to RAINBO::CANNOY
    specifying the conference name and note number. I will forward your
    message with your name attached  unless you request otherwise.
                       
    ***********************************************************************
    
re: .38

Ian Curtis died for my sins.

re: .30
      
I could have written this note at the time it was entered.  I don't feel
that way now, but it is concievable that I could slip again.

/    I can't fall asleep at night and don't want to wake up in the morning.
/    I want to go to sleep and never wake up. All that keeps me moving is
/    inertia. I'm scared of everything. Christmas is going to be hell,
/    because no one knows I feel this way.

And when you do slip, you do let people know how you feel, you are given
a guilt-trip for raining on somebody's parade.  How dare you feel bad
at such a joyous time!  Or maybe it's Hey!  I have to cheer other people
up, and I don't need you dragging me down right now!

"Christmas is Hell" should be the next Matt Groening book.

/    I don't feel there's anyone I can turn to, I can't trust anyone enough
/    to let them close to me. I've been hurt too much and too deeply. I'm
/    worthless and shouldn't bother anyone with my feelings. No one cares. I
/    don't see that I could even talk to a professional therapist, I simply
/    can't let anyone that close to me.

Don't ever let feelings slip out.  People start saying stupid things like
you matter, and that you shouldn't hurt yourself because you will hurt
others....In 50,000 years we are all going to be dead, who cares?

Some people look at 50,000 years as justification to do what they
wish to the planet, I look at it as there being no reason to continue
the struggle.

Funny thing about being hurt too much and too deeply....ever notice
how easy it is to turn a "Friend" into a "Fiend"?  Just take away one
letter, R.  I have often wondered what the R stood for.  Rodney Dangerfield
has made tons of money saying "I don't get no respect", sometimes that
is how I feel.  Other times, I think it must be something else.
      
Reliability, perhaps.  Knowing that you can turn to somebody, tell
that person your deepest fear, share you hurts, then know that the
person will support you and not either give you the cold shoulder
(Don't bother me, I have my own problems) or use the information
to torment you later on (Hey, how is the situation going [exclaimed
in a loud voice in company you would rather not share personal
details with]).

Professional therapists take time.  And some of them aren't really
any good, but only way to find out is to try them.

Don't bother listening to me, because I am obviously a failure
as a suicide.

                       

 Somewhere floating around here there is a popular note about rage... I can 
remember a different kind of rage, at all the happy people everywhere, all 
around me, who did not care what I felt, most often because they did not even
know, and I was afraid to tell. Note -.1 is right.

    My dad committed suicide when I was 9 years old. I never really
    got it. My parents got divorced when I was 4 and I was allowed to
    see my dad once a week. He was sick. Physical and Psychical. I
    loved him but today I see that it was (lately) the best thing he
    could do for himself and all the people who loved him. It might
    sound though but I'm just realistic. He was 38 when he died and all
    he had was a live of pain. He just couldn't get along with it.
    
    I had depressions when I was about 13 years old (and later on too). 
    I couldn't get along with my environment. But I think I am more
    stabil then my dad was and about 3 years ago I learned alot about
    myself and how to be happy and ... and.. and..
    
    I'm really glad I live now and I enjoy life very much. I think if someone
    has depressions and doesn't get along with his life he needs either
    someone to talk to or a strong charachter. There's probably no standard
    solution for this problem and I agree to a noter before: it is an
    problem of our society......
    
    I learned to live and accept life the way it is....
                                              
    I wish everybody had that luck...

re. -1

		Thank you for sharing that and I wish you continued 
	success.  You sound like you have a positive outlook and 
	that is important.