| T.R | Title | User | Personal
Name | Date | Lines |
|---|
| 895.1 | slow down, cool off, take some time to think... | YODA::BARANSKI | Happiness is a warm rock in the sun | Fri Nov 03 1989 18:14 | 27 |
| How old are your sons? It sounds like they are quite old.
Is custody during a divorce or seperation going to be an issue?
What state do you live in?
Please be advised that in a divorce or seperation the court shows preferential
treatment to the mother in the form of custody, child support, who gets the
house, etc... If you feel that a seperation or divorce is imminent, you may
have to take drastic measures to safeguard yourself.
Does your wife work now? Does she want to? What is there in your past married
life and in the present situation that she would like to change? Or does she
want the status quo preserved or divorce? Can you live with that?
The first thing that you need is to get rid of the lawyer first, and then
determine whether or not both people will commit to working on the marriage, or
whether one party wants a divorce in some way. Notice I said get rid of the
lawyer first. Lawyers being what they are, you can't make a good decision about
the marriage with one present.
It seems to me like the first things you need to do is find out what your wife
wants, and figure out if that jives with what you want. Take your time in
figuring this out. I think it would be a good idea to let some time blow by to
let things cool down a bit.
Jim.
|
| 895.2 | | ACESMK::CHELSEA | Mostly harmless. | Fri Nov 03 1989 20:19 | 53 |
| Re: .0
Well, you've come to the right place .... Obviously you've made a
number of mistakes but you're working hard to correct things and you
seem to be heading in the right directions (like counseling and talking
about issues).
>My wife and I have been to counseling but now EVERYTHING is focused on
>my wrong and how I must go back to the person I was before she will be
>willing to talk about anything.
The person you were before -- what does this mean? The complacent
father/husband who did whatever anyone asked? If so, I don't think
it's a good idea. I don't think a counselor would think it a good
idea, either. Sounds like your wife likes to be in control.
>I got my response this Saturday from her attorney..... seek immediate
>and intense counseling (I am seeing a counselor) or she will proceed
>with filing for divorce.
You're already in counseling -- is she not aware of this or does she
want you to seek a different type of counseling?
>I have been and still am willing to compromise (without giving all of
>myself)
All you need now is someone to compromise with. I don't know how to
get your wife to agree to discuss compromising. I'm getting a very
strong impression that she's a controlling person; if so, she's none
too keen on compromise.
One thing to do, at any rate, is to document the steps you've taken
toward reconciliation (going to a counselor, firing your lawyer).
Also, document your achievements as a father (like becoming active in
scouts for your son's sake). You want to be able to demonstrate that
you have shown good faith in trying to keep the marriage together.
I don't know how much you see your sons, but see them as often as
possible. No doubt they're rather confused. Just be careful about
discussing your wife with them.
I don't know if this is possible, but you might try to get a list from
your wife of what her husband *must* do. (Not what "husbands" do but
what *her* husband must do.) Try to get some statement from her about
what this intensive counseling is supposed to produce. This gives you
a basis for negotiation. If she rejects all efforts to compromise,
insisting on her requirements being met, you might want to get tough.
"I want to keep this marriage, but you will not dictate to me.
Whatever we do will be a *joint* decision -- I will not let you control
me." Perhaps by appearing "eager to please" you somehow prompt her to
be demanding. I have no idea if that's true or how she'd react.
Whatever you do, discuss it first with someone like your counselor.
|
| 895.3 | Replies from anonymous author of base note | QUARK::HR_MODERATOR | | Sun Nov 05 1989 15:25 | 132 |
|
RE: 895.1
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>How old are your sons? It sounds like they are quite old.
They are 13 and 15..... I don't know if that is quite old but if feels
that way some days!! :-)
>Is custody during a divorce or seperation going to be an issue?
No I have reconciled myself to the fact that if either occurs they likely
will stay with their mother, if for no other reason that the amount of
traveling I must do.
>What state do you live in?
Ohio...
>Please be advised that in a divorce or seperation the court shows preferential
>treatment to the mother in the form of custody, child support, who gets the
>house, etc... If you feel that a seperation or divorce is imminent, you may
>have to take drastic measures to safeguard yourself.
>Does your wife work now? Does she want to?
She has not work since we got married 16+ years ago and does not want to.
>What is there in your past married life and in the present situation that
>she would like to change? Or does she want the status quo preserved or
>divorce? Can you live with that?
I have asked MANY times for her to define exactly how she would like it
to be but can not get beyond "I want to be happy and I want things to be
like they were".
I can NOT live with that because I want to keep growing or at least try.
>The first thing that you need is to get rid of the lawyer first, and then
>determine whether or not both people will commit to working on the marriage, or
>whether one party wants a divorce in some way. Notice I said get rid of the
>lawyer first. Lawyers being what they are, you can't make a good decision about
>the marriage with one present.
I did get rid of the lawyer. I then told her that I did that because we
can not get anything resolved with a lawyer involved. I then received the
letter from her lawyer stating get immediate and intense counseling or
she might proceed. I am going to a counseling and it has helped me under-
stand why each of us has said and done certain things.
>It seems to me like the first things you need to do is find out what your wife
>wants, and figure out if that jives with what you want. Take your time in
>figuring this out. I think it would be a good idea to let some time blow by to
>let things cool down a bit.
I have tried to ask directly and indirectly what she wants but I can NOT
get a direct response as I indicated earlier. I do believe that what is
really wants is the "old" person who gave in to whatever was wanted by
someone else....but that person is GONE.
THANKS for the comments!!!
RE: 895.2
----------------------
Re: .0
Well, you've come to the right place .... Obviously you've made a
number of mistakes but you're working hard to correct things and you
seem to be heading in the right directions (like counseling and talking
about issues).
>My wife and I have been to counseling but now EVERYTHING is focused on
>my wrong and how I must go back to the person I was before she will be
>willing to talk about anything.
The person you were before -- what does this mean? The complacent
father/husband who did whatever anyone asked? If so, I don't think
it's a good idea. I don't think a counselor would think it a good
idea, either. Sounds like your wife likes to be in control.
** You're correct the counseling does not think that is a good idea
** and he is working very deligently with me to keep me going in a
** positive direction.
>I got my response this Saturday from her attorney..... seek immediate
>and intense counseling (I am seeing a counselor) or she will proceed
>with filing for divorce.
You're already in counseling -- is she not aware of this or does she
want you to seek a different type of counseling?
** She is aware of it but does not like the person I am going to
** because she knows nothing about him.
>I have been and still am willing to compromise (without giving all of
>myself)
All you need now is someone to compromise with. I don't know how to
get your wife to agree to discuss compromising. I'm getting a very
strong impression that she's a controlling person; if so, she's none
too keen on compromise.
One thing to do, at any rate, is to document the steps you've taken
toward reconciliation (going to a counselor, firing your lawyer).
Also, document your achievements as a father (like becoming active in
scouts for your son's sake). You want to be able to demonstrate that
you have shown good faith in trying to keep the marriage together.
I don't know how much you see your sons, but see them as often as
possible. No doubt they're rather confused. Just be careful about
discussing your wife with them.
I don't know if this is possible, but you might try to get a list from
your wife of what her husband *must* do. (Not what "husbands" do but
what *her* husband must do.) Try to get some statement from her about
what this intensive counseling is supposed to produce. This gives you
a basis for negotiation. If she rejects all efforts to compromise,
insisting on her requirements being met, you might want to get tough.
"I want to keep this marriage, but you will not dictate to me.
Whatever we do will be a *joint* decision -- I will not let you control
me." Perhaps by appearing "eager to please" you somehow prompt her to
be demanding. I have no idea if that's true or how she'd react.
** As I indicated in a previous note (895.1 response) I have had NO
** luck at all other than to hear "I want the "old" person back and
** I want to be happy". I believe we all want to be happy!!!
Whatever you do, discuss it first with someone like your counselor.
** THANKS for the comments
|
| 895.4 | A few thoughts based on experience... | PENUTS::JLAMOTTE | J & J's Memere | Mon Nov 06 1989 11:34 | 46 |
| There are no easy answers to resolving marital problems. It takes a
lot of time and a lot of hard work. And the only expectation you can
realistically have is that you can change or adapt to the situation.
I have been divorced for 18 years and if I had to do it over again I
think I might have tried harder to adjust my needs so that I could have
met enough of my ex-husbands expectations to make the marriage
workable.
It sounds like you have a positive attitude. The counselling is very
important for you and if you are comfortable with your therapist I
would say that was not a negotiable issue with your wife.
Your remark about your children's college education is in my eyes
negotiable. In fact I am going to open another note around that
subject.
Infidelity, as we have found whenever it has been discussed in the
various conferences, means different things to different people.
Although your reasons for getting involved might be very valid to you
your wife might have a value system that cannot handle this disloyalty.
And during your marriage you set up expectations by being loyal to her
in the family conflict.
Consistency is a major factor in change and taking personal
responsibility. It sounds like you recognize the fact that some of the
issues developed because you supported behavior that was inconsistent
with your values.
You are at the brink...if you go over there is a whole new world out
there, some of it pleasant and some of it contains problems and issues
worse then what you are dealing with today.
And the sad part is that it is almost imperative that you retain legal
counsel until you are comfortable that the marriage is stable. To me
it is a realistic move. Realistically your marriage is at a very
crucial point and you are not totally in control. In the event that
it does not work out you need to have some insurance that your
interests in the areas of child support and the division of assets is
properly represented.
Good luck....
|
| 895.5 | | FSHQA2::AWASKOM | | Mon Nov 06 1989 11:37 | 19 |
| What has struck me in your note is an inconsistency on your wife's
part that she may not be aware of. Several times you mention that
she wants to stay home and take care of the children and household,
and not work. If she insists on pursuing a divorce, the odds are
*very, very* high that she will find herself *needing* to work in
order to make ends meet. Most courts won't award sufficient alimony
to keep her going.
Consider also that she is probably denying that her role *will be
ending* as 'mother'. Change is never easy, and the boy's immenent
departure for college (and your planning for it brings it to the
surface) forces her to confront it. What will there be for her
to do when the boys are gone?
I'm not sure what you can do with this information, but possibly
the two of you need to bring her fears out into the open, as well
as your own.
Alison
|
| 895.6 | joint counselling with current counsellor? | ASD::HOWER | Helen Hower | Mon Nov 06 1989 14:53 | 29 |
| You've mentioned that you've had marital/couple counselling that ended up
concentrating on your wrong, and that you are currently in individual
counselling which your wife does not approve of since she knows nothing about
the counsellor (and it sounds as if she wouldn't like the advice you're getting
from them!) BTW, if your current counsellor is supporting your changes, it's
not surprising your wife feels uncomfortable about him/her! After all, that's
what's *wrong*, isn't it, from her point of view? :-) :-) :-)
Does your current counsellor also do couples counselling? Or might he/she be
willing at least to do a few joint sessions, to defuse your wife's complaint
that she doesn't know them, perhaps with some individual sessions to get *her*
point of view and goals, then to serve as a mediator (interpreter?) between you?
FWIW, your wife probably didn't view "the old you" as giving in to everyone
else's desires. It's a hard thing to perceive for someone who's never been in
(put themselves in? :-} that position; her feeling is likely to be that you
wouldn't have done it (for so long) if you didn't WANT to, so why are you now
unexpectedly not wanting to...? And she may, indeed, be fighting the idea that
things will change, anyway, once the boys leave home, and didn't want to deal
with this additional change in you. You're dealing with the same problem, you
mentioned, as well as belatedly rebelling against being everyone else's person
and not your own. IMHO, it's a healthy change. :-) Yes, you're sometimes making
[big] mistakes, and unfortunately some of being your own person is accepting
that and dealing with the not-always-so-pleasant consequences....
Good luck, and I hope you find a solution that's acceptable to all of you. It's
very difficult to patch together a relationship, even when both people actively
work at it.... May you be one of the lucky ones who manage to do it!
Helen
|
| 895.7 | A counselor can help her be specific. | POGO::REINBOLD | | Mon Nov 06 1989 22:18 | 18 |
| Your wife needs counseling to learn how to make coherent requests.
Saying that you should be "like you were before" is too general.
Requests regarding changing someone's behavior have to be very
specific. What does "like before" mean to her? What specific behavior
does she want to return? (I know you don't have the answers to these
questions, but she needs to provide them.) You can't get anywhere until
she pins down *exactly* what she wants. Then you can compromise from
there.
The two of you really need to see a reasonable counselor together. And
if you wind up with one that doesn't seem to be working for you, find
one that does. Some counselors are very good, some are very bad, and
some are in between. A good counselor will help her to articulate
her requests so that you understand what she's after, and will help
you in the compromise process.
Good luck,
Paula
|
| 895.8 | | ACESMK::CHELSEA | Mostly harmless. | Tue Nov 07 1989 16:20 | 34 |
| An alternative interpretation of her behavior: She's frightened of the
changes in her life. Her life was great -- she had everything she
wanted or needed. Now it's changing and she's feeling very insecure.
"Okay," you say, "if she's afraid of the change, why is she threatening
to divorce him?" Probably because she thinks it's a safe bluff, given
his demonstrated determination to keep the marriage together. The
problem is, she might find herself in a position where she has to
follow through on her bluff, if only to save face. It's certainly in
the lawyer's best interest to have this go to a divorce; there could be
some pressure there (not necessarily on purpose).
It would really help to have some idea of what was motivating her.
(Isn't that always the case?) If she's afraid of change, then you
might be able to resolve this by calling her bluff but leaving her an
out. Tell her point blank you refuse to go back to being the old you,
even if it means a divorce. (But only say this if it's really true;
otherwise you're guilty of bluffing, too.) Then say something like,
"Please don't let the lawyer pressure you into a major step like
divorce unless it's something you're really comfortable with." This is
the out -- it lets her save face by having the divorce be mostly the
lawyer's idea. Tell her again how you want to stay married and work
out a life where you can both be comfortable. Tell her that her
happiness is one of the things that's important to you. (If you tell
her that, make sure you say "one of the things" and maybe mention other
things, like the happiness of your children, that are important. This
helps fend off the immediate response of "Well, if my happiness is
important to you, then why don't you do what I want?")
Maybe this will work, maybe it won't. You probably want to be careful
about bringing up how the kids will be on their own in five years or
so. If she's threatened by changes, you want to be careful about
touching on her fears; she might react by getting more rigid in her
position.
|