Conference quark::human_relations-v1

    When I posted the anonymous base note, I supplied the title
    "The Switch" because what the anonymous noter is describing is the
    phase of a romance called "The Switch" by Dr. Judith Sills in her
    book "A Fine Romance".  I recommend the book to the anonymous noter
    and others.  Not everything in the book should be taken as gospel,
    but it really puts a good perspective on a lot of what happens in
    relationships.
    
    Briefly, "The Switch" is what happens when one partner, who has been
    somewhat aloof, suddenly decides that they are "interested", only
    to find that the other has just as suddenly pulled away.
    
    			Steve

.0> I wish she could read this


    My advice is not to send this to her, not to let her read this, LEAVE
    HER ALONE...

.0>	What can I do to help her and our relationship?


    There isn't anything that you can do.  In fact, cold facts being what
    they are, you may have already done enough damage to not be able to
    repair the relationship. You need now to just leave her alone, and let
    her make the next move(s).  She has told you what her terms are, which
    are stay away and let her alone. It seems that she has given all she
    could give, and after it has been rejected so many times, she just has
    nothing left to give at the moment.  She may never have anything to give
    anymore.  Its sorta like a hot stove.   If you touch it enough and get
    burnt, sooner or later, you learn not to touch it. The same is with any
    long term relationship, it is it one-sided for so long, and nothing is
    given back, then you learn.  She is also dealing with your antecedents,
    which say more than your actions of today can say. Back off, leave her
    alone, IF there is anything left to restore, she'll let you know, if
    there isn't, then learn from what the last 18 months have taught you,
    and learn to treat the next person in your life a little (whole lot?) 
    better.


.0>	Has this ever happened to anyone before? 

    Unfortunately, to me, it has happened. Now he still two years later is
    telling me what a fool he was.  However, I went through so much, I can
    never go back.  He continues to call, I continue to wish he wouldn't,
    but I don't have the heart to hurt him and ask him not to call anymore.
    He tells me he wishes he had not messed it up, that he'd like to get
    back together (and has for the last 1.5 out of two years that we broke
    up)... I keep waiting for him to move on, but he can't seem to make
    that clean break...  Two+ years ago, I was deeply in love with this
    person, now, all I can do is love him for the love he can never give,
    and hope someday he can let go, and enjoy his life.


.0> 	Is this normal?

    I think some is normal, you can't always be there for the other person
    in your life.  I mean you can be there, but there are portions of your 
    life that you can't share, don't want to share, or don't need to share.
    You need to have your own life, and your own interest, BUT you also
    need to let her know that she is important to you, and as long as you
    two are together, that she will always be important.  That does not
    mean spending 168 hours a week together, but it does mean that the
    time you do spend together is with the concentration on the both of you.
    That also means letting her know that she is on your mind, and that you
    care about her.  When that happens,all else *normally* falls into
    place, especially with an 18 month relationship.


    If the relationship is there, it will turn around, is it isn't, then,
    move forward, and let her move forward.

    I wish you good luck, and patience...

>    	Has this ever hapened to anyone before? 
    
    It happens alot.
    
>   	Is this normal?
    
    If, by normal you mean, "Does it happen alot?"  then, yes it's normal.
    The following are just my own observations.
    
    I think there is a hormone that is released within men's brains that
    makes them smug after a "success" in a courtship.  I think it's the
    same hormone that makes a winning team pour champaigne on each other's
    heads and scream, "We're Number One!"  It's an ego thing, and most men
    become such dickheads when their egos come into play.
    
    When most men feel secure in a relationship and we have a woman
    "swooning" over us, we feel as if our work is done.  We can sit back,
    pat ourselves on the back and pour champaigne on our heads.  Our
    over confidence in our ego usually leads us to neglect the needs
    of the other party.
    
    Of course when this very foundation of our towering ego, this "most
    awesome woman in the world" becomes shakey, we, being men, chase
    our own butts in circles trying to protect or maintain the bedrock
    of this thing called ego.  It's only then that we panic and become
    the nice guy that the girl fell in love with in the begining.
    
    Sometimes it's too late.  Other times it works and in 18 months
    you'll find yourself right back where you are today.  Other times
    you'll smother your pride and look at things for what they are and
    make real decisions regarding the path of your future. 
    
    That's been my experience.  Yours may be the same.
    
    Or not.
    
    Kris 

.5>    Not to start a male/female conflict here, but if you think this
.5>    is a male-only thing, we need a spoonful of reality for you.
    
    You're probably right.  But I've never noticed it in females.
    
.5>    Most men?   You ARE speaking for yourself only.
    
    Myself and about 70% of the men I know.  Not that I'm speaking for
    those others because most of them wouldn't admit that they act this
    way, their egos being what they are, but their actions follow suit.
    
    Like I said, my observations, my experiences.  Nothing scientific
    about it, I'll admit that, but the most common complaint I hear from
    my sisters and my female friends is, "He used to be so nice when
    we started going out.  Now he sits around and watches sports.  I
    just hate it when those guys pour champaigne over each other's heads."
    (Paraphrased, of course)
    
    Kris

    Mike,
    
    Kris's point in .4 may not be *100%* accurate, but I think that the 
    "no need to feed the fish after it's caught" syndrome is *more*
    characteristic of men than women.
    
    I know, I've been there.  The latter half of the majority of my past
    relationships was spent with me trying to recapture those first few
    moments of magic and revive the romance.  It was emotionally exhausing
    and lonely.  He'd "come around" at about the time I was ready to throw
    in the towel - but it didn't change anything because, at that point, I
    was afraid (and almost 100% certain) he'd do the same thing to me again.
    
    I found that I'd rather move out of the relationship and start fresh 
    than to risk the pain all over again.
    
    Carol

    
    >>>	The other point I thought I made was that there may be more
    >>> going on than meets the eye, depending on who you ask.  Ask the
    >>> woman, you may hear "he doesn't pay attention to me", ask the
    >>> man,  you might hear "she nags me so much I get tired of listening
    >>> to her".
    
    I can agree with that.  But they're both right.  She believes he's
    ignoring her, he believes she nags too much.  Sounds like a symptom
    of a communication breakdown to me.  Neither knows what the other
    wants, and perhaps neither knows/cares how to find out.
    
    But the common result (IMHO and perhaps pertinent to .0) is that, once 
    each one gets what they want, they rethink the situation and decide 
    it's not worth pursuing after all - i.e. once he starts to pay attention 
    to her again, she wonders when he'll drift back off to limbo; once she 
    stops nagging, he wonders when she'll start up again.
    
    Six of one, half a dozen of the other....
    
    Carol

>	Has this ever happened to anyone before?

You bet.


>	What can I do to help her and our relationship?

From my limited personal experience, a 'switch' (what an apt name)
is difficult to correct. The problem is that the newly 'switched on'
person tends to make all the wrong moves, effectively turning the
'switched off' person even more and more off. 

I think the reply that described 'the other side' gave you an
unpleasant --but very credible-- outlook.

But, if you are determined to act: somewhere in this file, I wrote a
longish reply, detailing how you can get her back. It's not easy to
do. It's not a guaranteed method, either, but if anything at all
will work, this is it. 

I am not sure, 'getting her back' will help her; or if it's
worthwhile for you. Many indicated it was not worthwhile for them. 


>	I wish she could read this

No, you don't. For the same reason, telling her what a jerk you've
been is awfully counterproductive. The last thing you want to do is 
remind her again how she has been turned off.


I know this is difficult for you. I wish you luck.

-- Ron

         This topic is most interesting because so many people have seen
    the kinds of things done by the people in this scenario.  
    
         The negative part is that .0 appears to be at a point at which the 
    situation is not correctable by anything he does.  It's sort of like
    committing a crime, and repenting, but still having to do the time.
    
         My advice is to let her know how you feel about her, without
    necessarily discussing your past behavior, and then BACK OFF.  She will 
    have everything she needs to make a decision.  Be ready for the worst,
    but expect the best.
    
                                       Greg

    
    Personally, I think men and women BOTH do this.  Whether one does
    it more often than the other....who knows?  When I read the author's
    note, I felt a number of emotions - most of which hit too close to home.
    Anyhow, it made me think of when a child is in a room with toys.
    Now that child may not be playing with a certain toy but just watch
    what happens if another child wants to play with it or somebody puts
    it away.  Instant attraction - that is the ONLY toy the child wants!
                                                          
    Why is it that we take others for granted?  Does it take the threat of 
    losing a person to open our eyes?
         
    To the author, I would like to wish you much luck.  If you have
    let this person know how you feel and that you're ready to WORK
    at your relationship, then you have done all you can do.  If she
    does decide to continue the relationship, then I wish you both the
    best and much happiness.  If she does not, then may you have the
    strength to move on and possibly learn something which will guide
    you in the future.                                        
                                                              
    All the best,                                             
                                                              
    Kris                                                      

    re .7
    
>    If I hear from some of my male friends "she used to be so nice
>    when we started going out, but all she wants to do now is nag me
>    about every little thing", could I then say that "most women end
>    up nagging their men until they drive them nuts"?
    
>    	Consider the source of the information.

    Beyond the source, there is my own observation of couples interacting.
    She would like to go dancing, he doesn't.  She would like to receive
    flowers (or poems, or kisses in dark corners, or suprise plush dolls,
    or balloons, or tickets to the ballet, or...) just like she used
    to get when they first started going out.  He says something which
    belies his mental state like, "Ah, dat stuff is fer sissies." as
    he settles in to watch the Jays get smashed by the A's.
    
    And, no, women are not blameless.  However the writer of the base
    note is looking at this whole thing from the male perspective and
    trying to understand how things got to this point.
    
    My reply was not intended to be gospel truth and you can insert as many
    "IMO"'s or "Maybe"'s or "Perhaps"'s or "At least that's what I think"'s
    as you you see fit. 
    
    Like I said, "My experiences.  Yours may be similar.  Or not."
    
    Kris

    I've hidden the base note at the anonymous author's request.  I hope
    to make at least some portion or a synopsis of it visible shortly.
    I apologize for the inconvenience.
    
    				Steve

>	There's nothing like a note full of male and female
>    stereotypes to get the week started.


	 Not particularly stereotypes at all, Mike in the context of
	 Kris' note.  Possible/probable situations and such are good
	 examples of what could be the cause....

	 (ie, lack of continuing interest)

	 If a relationship wants to stay alive, the interest has to
	 stay alive, which means both parties have to make the effort
	 to make it work......after you make the catch and get
	 comfortable together, doesn't mean that you can stop making
	 that effort.

	 kath

    re. .16 
    Steve I hope you can make a synopsis available soon.  I am sorry I
    missed the original posting.  I am very interested in this topic and
    would like to hear more about how others have handled this type of
    situation.  
    Peggy

    Could we pleae use this topic to offer constructive advice to the base
    noter?
    
    Most of the notes so far have been discussing the "perceived norm"
    of men's vs women's behaviour in relationships. Maybe a separate topic
    could be set up by/for those who wish to discuss it, rather than mixing
    it in with the discussion of a difficult particular case.
    
    If you don't like the term "perceived norm", then again, that's
    something that can be discussed outside this topic.
    
    	Andrew.

    I didn't get a chance to read the base note, but from the other
    replys, I can make a fair stab at what it's all about.
    
    I guess this type of thing has happened to most of us at one time
    or another, sometimes the other person responds in time, and everyone
    is happy. Sometimes the other person never responds. And, sometimes
    it works out that by the time the reluctant one responds, the desire
    has waned, and can't be changed.
    
    As some of the other notes have suggested, the only thing you can
    do is back off, and if it's meant to be it will. Trying to PUSH
    the situation is definately not the way go.
    
    Nils

    RE: 21
    
    Nils, I agree with you wholeheartedly on this one.  I also didn't
    get t read the base note, but it's a familiar story and one that
    a girlfriend of mine recently went through.  
    
    Only, instead of giving an ultimatum, she started dating other men,
    not telling her boyfriend, fell in love with someone else and is
    ignoring her now considered-to-be-ex.  In the meantime, the ex is
    busy sending flowers, wanting to spend time with her child, etc.,
    whereas before he never wanted to meet her son, all he wanted her
    to do was come over and bring videos -- they just sat around and
    never went out.  He's trying to make an effort and it's much too
    late.
    
    If it's meant to be, it's going to be, but not by "pushing" yourself
    on the person you care about!
    
    Just my .02.
    
    Tammi
    

    reminds me of the old Joni Mitchell song "Big Yellow Taxi"
    
    she didn't notice anything until she heard the screen door slam,
    
    "and a big yellow taxi took away my old man.
    Don't it always seem to go,
    You don't know what you got till its gone,
    Pave Paradise, and put up a parking lot." 
    
    or something like that.
    
    -roger
    

    	In my experiance if a man does not listen when the minister tells
    	him he will lose his family if he keeps up his behavior. He should
    	not be surprised when after a year or two of "sticking it out" and
    	fruitless counseling sessions his family up and leaves(wife takes 
    	the children and leaves). I moved out (because alone I could not
    	afford the rent of the apartment and I knew he could not afford
    	nor would he pay child support or alimony.)
    
    	In my opinion if the relationship gets so bad that I move out.
    	In no longer requires my emotional support and unless the man is 
    	extremly sensitive(makes no mistakes in courtship) the relationship
    	will wither away.
    
    	In my first relationship I waited too long to move out. I think I
    	I tried too hard. It took two years after to have real emotions
    	again. I dont wait anymore if the man is not ready to stop the
    	head games(I dont realy care if you name the behavior but I mean
    	if the guy cant treat me like a friend all the time and let me
    	know who he is and what going on inside him then hes not ready
    	for me)
    
    	I have never got on Steve's case for going out or watching 
    	Bronco games. It could be because he tried to make it fun for
    	me by telling me whats happening in the game. I don't remember
    	much for to long so he has to tell me over again while I
    	crochet or cross stitch.;^)
    
    	Now I like to know that he has a good time with his friends
    	(one reason I liked him so much was his interaction with 
    	his friends and his commitment to them and the way he shared 
    	himself with them...such a variety of them too) So I would be
    	trying to change a veryimportant part of him if I attempted 
    	to decrease the time he spends with them. He cant spent as	
    	much time with them as before because family takes time away
    	and he has wanted family so long that he realy cherishes us.
    	That was somthing he relised on his own.
    
    	Concerning the nagging. Would you(general public) take is as 
    	nagging if It were real obvious that the person(woman) asking
    	you for something were extremly loving and gental when they 
    	approched you with thier consern. Would you take the time to
    	relise that this person has cared enough about you to notice
    	a problem or consern that bothers them and discuss the 
    	situation or consern til a solution or all the feelings 
    	are expressed(some things cannot be fixed and the feelings
    	need expression anyway).
    
    	janet
     

         Janet, it all depends upon how it is presented.  If you find
    yourself saying the same thing repeatedly, you can be almost certain
    that the person to whom you are speaking is no longer listening.
    
         If someone is not responsive to something that you are saying, it
    won't change anything if you say it again the same way.
    
                                         Greg

    Re: Note 860.25 - the last two sentences IN response to .24 last paragraph.

Has it been forgotten ? I'am reffering to some of the very, very wise
sayings of the Nazarene. Did he not at one point make the statement that:
"..Keep asking and it shall be granted unto thee ." Notice how he used the
*continuous tense - meaning the person pleading must not stop at one, two,
but "keep asking ..that The Father might grant unto thee .."
    Again in one of the Gosples didn't the Nazarene relate a parable about
a "devious, insensitive, vicious, obnoxious, arrogant S.O.B(oar)" Judge who
refused to grant a certain widow a hearing about some property rights. The
widow was said to have pleaded countless times saying: "Your Lordship see to it
that I get justice etc." The judge was definitely obstinate to her pleadings.
BUT finally the judge said: "I don't really care for this lower class widow,
I don't care who is getting burnt wrongly, I don't even care if there is a
Supreme Being (YHWH) but just to get my peace of mind by stopping her from
pestering me I will hear her case." And that devious, insensitive, obnoxious, 
dirt of the ground judge -  finally heard her case.  
            Secular example:
How many times ( in years) did Mahatmah Gandhi approach the ruling, royal,
colonial & imperial power of the British before his nation of India was granted
independence ?  ( Can anybody here accurately tell us how many times ?)
When Moise/Moussa/Moses approached the pharoah of Mizriam the first time, was
he granted the permission to allow the Hebrews to leave ? How many times did
he approach pharoah ?  Was it many times or one time ?
     How many times did Susan B. Anthony approach the authorities asking that
women be allowed  suffrage as men ? Was this not finally granted in 1920 by
Amendment XIX ? How many times did it take - anybody remembers ? 
Should anyboby here be surprised to discover that during WWII when obviously
brutal and sadistically inclined nazi-soldiers were sent to occupy Denmark 
most of these once cruel goons became "softened" that - they joined the Danish 
Resistence by not betraying the non-Danes who were in hiding ? How many times
did the courageous men and women of Denmark "talked to them nazis" before they
were "softened" ? Anybody here remembers ?   The list is endless.........

What I'am saying simply is that, noter .24's point should not be minimized in
anyway. Repeatedly asking :for the same thing, from someone who's not
listening, COULD work to wear him/her down if the pleas are  sincere and
consistent. No guarantees for Sure, but Who Knows..? There might be a reponse
of some sort. 
 
Fazari( the wanzam)_  post scriptum: Its only a note and an opinion..! 
        

"Repeatedly asking :for the same thing, from someone who's not listening, COULD
work to wear him/her down if the pleas are  sincere and consistent. No
guarantees for Sure, but Who Knows..? There might be a reponse of some sort."

Sure, "a response of some sort".  But most likely not one you'll like.  Don't
hold your breath.

Jim.

re .24, .26, .27

I think the approach being discussed here is perhaps more
subtle than it appears.

We're talking about creative nonviolence.
Maintaining an attitude of goodwill at all times.
Provoking a response while taking away any legitimate target.

A soldiers most powerful weapon is not his gun, but his image of the enemy.
It is this image which allows him to kill.  If you can take away his image
of the enemy, his gun become powerless.

Gandhi realized this, and used it to chase the British out of his country.

The Nazerine saw it as well ("Love your enemies").

On a more contemporay note, so does Gorbachev ("we're going to take away
your enemy").  Even Reagan couldn't resist the INF treaty.

Food for thought.

- Peter

    I'm sitting here trying to see how the recent replies relate to
    the base topic, which is admittedly hidden....  Maybe a new note
    is in order?
    
    				Steve

    An attempt to summarize the content of the base note, without, I hope,
    causing discomfort for the note's author.
    
    The noter is in a relationship with a woman he thinks is wonderful,
    but some way into the relationship he started taking her for
    granted and things "fell into a rut".  He has just started to
    realize that he really loves her and wants to do right by her, but
    now she has pulled away and wants him to give her some "space".  He
    tries to, but is upset that he may lose her for good.  He wants
    advice on how to pull everything together and mend the relationship.
    
    				Steve

    Jim (.27),
    
    I believe the analogy in Fazari's .26 is:
    
    	"The squeaky wheel gets the oil."
    
    
    Carol

         Or in some cases, the squeaky wheel get the "heave-ho"!
    
                                        GB

    
    
    
    				:-P~~~
    

Re: Note 860.32
>> Or in some cases the squeaky wheel get the "heave-ho"!

Will the above statement help to explain why Dr. M.L. King was eliminated
for "squeaking" many times, therefore disturbing the peace ?  :-
                     Or
Why Queen Boadicea of the ancient Britons was "silenced" by the Roman rulers
becuase she dared squeak out on behalf of the subjects ?
                     Or
Why millions of women endure pain and torture from abusive husbands for fear
that if they "squeak" they will get the heave-ho ?

Re: 0 (base note) You had your chance (so to speak) and "almost" blew it .
It's obvious some hearts are made of stone and some minds are made of 
concrete, yet there are times that such stone hearted can be pulverized
into sand hearted. Keep trying ! If it doesn't work this time you've at least 
been prepared for a better relationship in the near future. 
   !
Fazari 

    re: .-1

    I think that your concept of continually battering against a person
    until he or she is worn down is nothing less than destructive.  If this
    woman has made it clear that she wants space, and does not want her
    boyfriend pushing himself on her, that must be honored.  If he shows
    her more attention than she wants, and does not give her the space she
    asks for, he is blatantly ignoring her wishes.  Not respecting a
    woman's wishes equals not respecting the woman herself, in my opinion.

    This does not mean that he can't show her that he loves her.  He
    certainly can.  Sending flowers, or cards just saying that he's
    thinking about her are nice, but don't invade one's space TOO much.  It
    may be that the best way he can show her that he loves her is to let
    her take the time to do what she needs to do.  That doesn't mean
    cutting her out of his life for a month (unless that's what she asks
    for).  It just means giving her the space to be able to trust him
    again.  If they have gotten to this situation, she's pretty fed up with
    him - one could even say she's burnt out.  She needs to pay attention
    to her own needs right now.  If she has said that she wants to put less
    energy into this guy, you had better believe that she means it. 
    Letting her recover from all the bad stuff that's gone on, while
    letting her know that he still loves her and is there for her may be
    the only thing that will save the relationship.  (Maybe - I haven't
    read the base note, but this is my guess).

    The points in the previous note are well taken though.  If time goes by
    and she decides that this relationship is over, it's probably over.  I
    would make a few last attempts to show her that I really have learned
    something and that I really care, but it *may* be too late.  If that's
    the case, all you can do is wish her luck, and know not to make the
    same mistake next time!!!

    Sarah

RE: nagging = wants attention

You are right about that.  But I still wouldn't offer it as a usefull tactic for
relating to your spouse on a long term basis.  Notice that the judge being
nagged at could get rid of the women by acceding.  They were not in a long term
relationship, it's an adversarial relationship.

What you need to do instead of nagging is to be able to sit down, get their
attention, and talk open and honestly.  Say, 'Look, I need to talk to you ... I
have a real problem with ....'.  'I need your attention'.  Nagging is not an
efficient mode of communications.  As much as I try hard to be sensitive to
other people's feelings, I can't read minds, and I need people to come out and
say what it is that they need and want from me.

Jim.

    Jim, 
    
    I definitely agree with you on that one.  Communication works best
    when the communicating partners are on the same wavelength.
    
    :-)
    
    Carol
    

   RE: Note 860.
   35.> Letting her recover from all the bad stuff that's gone on, while
   35.> letting her know that he still loves her and is there for her may be
   35.> the only thing that will save the relationship.......          Sarah

      I AGREE 99.999% with this statement !
    
   It should be obvious to most of us that the term "nagging" has a non-postive
   connotation to it. What will be appropriate in such instances of "nagging"
   is to differentiate :nagging: from the other nagging. Genuine complaints
   from loved ones should never be given an automatic label of nagging.
   I'am sure a large segment of readers who remember the method used by Delilah
   to extract knowledge about the formula for Samson's strength will agree and
   perhaps say: "Now that was nagging in its ugly form". Becuase the info she
   extracted was not used to benefit the relationship, it was used to destroy
   them both in the end.
       Genuine concerns when brought up appropriately should be addressed 
   properly (and hopefully promptly) by both parties in frank and open terms. 
   Yet there is FACTOR:-> silly but destructive headgames - that people play.
   
    Re: >> Giving space yet persistently pursuing a cherished goal..

    There are several news reports of those who instead of using low persuasive
    methods to win "lost love" opt for violent solutions - in some cases doing
    in the one who jilted them. Others when jilted commit suicide - cuz they
    lost the hope of winning a "lost love" - Gandhi wouldn't do something 
    bizarre & extreme like that - hence the need for the analogy in .27.

Re: GB ( of note 860.35(a)  
    Why did you delete the note before it could be read by many? BTW:I read it.
    So, you are not un casse-cou after all like I thought eh..?
     
    Fazari (y'wanzam)

The base note is now visible again with the author's permission.

			Steve